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Thread: DTD: Statler Hilton / Old Library Block

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by pariah
    it would be a huge shot in the arm if the merc and the grand were redeveloped thats a huge block
    What makes that funny is that I hadn't seen it in person until this year.

  2. #52
    Dallas Grand Obsessor ;) leogrrl's Avatar
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    Cool Hey US75guy...

    I have a few pictures I've found messing around online... for one, you'll see the full size version of my av... it's my favorite pic lol. My collection, if you will, is extremely limited... I would love to find less posed, more casual photographs or some of the entrance, guest rooms, etc but I have no idea how I would go about trying to find them... it seems like a pipe dream.

    For now, what I can find :



















    Also, some links...
    http://www.where-dallas.com/guides/l...?ResID=2096RES - just hotel info
    http://www.skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=6322 - found on this website
    http://www.quamnet.com/fcgi-bin/ir/i...4=0035&x=9&y=6 - The company that does/did own it?

  3. #53
    Sophisticated Boom-Boom US75Guy's Avatar
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    This is terrific! It's strange, but I have been unable to find any archived photos of the interiors! It seems there would be many publicity stock photos from its opening in 1956. Or lots of casual shots around the hotel. Oh well, maybe one day I'll get to see it in person. Thanks for the efforts to put these on the forum. It would be great to see this building open again in whatever purpose.

  4. #54
    Dallas Grand Obsessor ;) leogrrl's Avatar
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    I agree with you, there should be more photos. I can't begin to imagine where I might find photographs... I've posted on Dallas communities on Yahoo Groups offering to buy copies of photographs, along with paying for them to be duplicated, but no one seems to have any.... heartbreaking... It's such a shame. I mean I've taken pics in most every hotel (not motel of course lol) I've ever stayed at... I can't imagine that no one has any. Do you have any idea how I could search for more?

    I found those pics last year, through different google searches. Concierge.com used to have a good page about the Grand, but as I was posting links, I noticed it was gone :-(

    I've taken a lot of exterior shots myself with my Maxxum 5... but I don't have a scanner and I don't have anything of the inside obviously... Crescentboi has been inside of it you know... lucky guy :-)

  5. #55
    dallacentric drumguy8800's Avatar
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    Oh, CRIPE! It's that derlict old thing. I just assumed the "GRAND Hotel" was some abandoned art deco gem, but oh no, its some late 50s-60s stretchedout-and-squatty Adams Mark minime.

    ::horrid noise.::

    The façade better be completely redone.. and it needs to be made higher.. and the awning needs to go. I feel sick everytime I drive by it..

    Of course, no offense to any of you who happen to admire it / aren't quite so critical of architecture that they think everything that doesn't fit in with their own taste parameters needs to be imploded (This, Reunion Arena, the Fairmont Hotel, 511 Ervay, the big blue building, etc..)
    Last edited by drumguy8800; 13 September 2004 at 05:00 PM.

  6. #56
    Dallas Grand Obsessor ;) leogrrl's Avatar
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    I disagree whole-heartedly... but I do love your photography. Keep it up! :-)

  7. #57
    Sophisticated Boom-Boom US75Guy's Avatar
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    Every building has its place and time, and its relevancy to that place and time. While i am still not a huge fan of a lot of mid-century architecture, I can still admire it, and see that it too, has a place in the CBD. Just as giant crackerboxes like Renaissance Tower represents the 70's. This building was a trendsetter in its time, and shouldnt be discarded just because that trend came to an end.

    You might be surprised how good the Grand could look once it is buffed up again, and its surroundings have breathed some fresh air. In fairness, the greatest building in the world is going to look a little weary surrounded by a sea of homeless and cardboard homes.

    By the way, I agree with Leogrrl, very nice photography on your site.

  8. #58
    dallacentric drumguy8800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leogrrl
    disagree whole-heartedly... but I do love your photography. Keep it up! :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by US75Guy
    Every building has its place and time, and its relevancy to that place and time. While i am still not a huge fan of a lot of mid-century architecture, I can still admire it, and see that it too, has a place in the CBD. Just as giant crackerboxes like Renaissance Tower represents the 70's. This building was a trendsetter in its time, and shouldnt be discarded just because that trend came to an end.

    You might be surprised how good the Grand could look once it is buffed up again, and its surroundings have breathed some fresh air. In fairness, the greatest building in the world is going to look a little weary surrounded by a sea of homeless and cardboard homes.

    By the way, I agree with Leogrrl, very nice photography on your site.
    Thank you both, very much. And again, no offense, that's just my own close-minded opinion. If I were in charge, everything would be Art Deco, post-modern, or french contemporary. I love stone .

  9. #59
    Sophisticated Boom-Boom US75Guy's Avatar
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    No offense taken. lol. I see things like that SBC tower with no shape or form and I get a little queasy myself. How can you make anything beautiful out of that!! That is the only building I've ever known that actually IMPROVED when they stuck that swirly logo on the southside a few years ago. At least it gave something of semi-interest to stare at....

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by US75Guy
    No offense taken. lol. I see things like that SBC tower with no shape or form and I get a little queasy myself. How can you make anything beautiful out of that!! That is the only building I've ever known that actually IMPROVED when they stuck that swirly logo on the southside a few years ago. At least it gave something of semi-interest to stare at....
    Oh, it has shape alright. Just a very ugly one.

  11. #61
    Supertall Skyscraper Member texman's Avatar
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    Dallas Grand Hotel

    I don't know if this has been brought up before, but can anyone tell me more about the Dallas Grand Hotel. This is what the Dallas Architecture website said:

    Dallas Grand Hotel
    1914 Commerce - 1956
    The 20 story Dallas Grand Hotel, originally named the Statler Hilton, opened in 1956. It features an innovative cantilevered structural system that extends the floor eight feet beyond interior supports. Architect William B. Tabler designed the "Y" shaped tower with rows of embossed porcelain enamel panels adorning the facade, making it one of the unique 1950's buildings in Dallas. A jacuzzi is located on the roof of the hotel, offering great views of Downtown Dallas. The hotel has 710 guest rooms, making it the third largest hotel in the city and the building is 234 feet high. At the current time, the hotel is vacant.


    Why did this hotel become vacant? It looks gret for redevelopment and has alot of potential.
    "And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963

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  13. #63
    dallacentric drumguy8800's Avatar
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    I despise this building for its surroundings, layout, architectural style, and insignificance.

    Surroundings: Parking lot, empty buildings, substandard street.

    Layout: Two towers, and a lower building that sprawls over the rest of the lot. It also has an overhang that I find rather ugly.

    Architectural Style: this building was built in the 50s. I think it would be great if we just removed the 50s and all of its offspring from our skyline. I also really don't like the balconies. Any building with layer upon layer of balconies extending all the way to the edge (a la Fairmont) is an eyesore by nature. Also, it is a bad color, and uses nothing (apparantly) but steel, concrete, "embossed porcelain enamel," and transparent, non-reflective glass. Also, are those AIR CONDITIONING UNITS on top of the lowest level?! Yes, they are. Just like Adams Mark, another product of this decade.

    511 Ervay, the Dallas not-so-Grand Hotel, 211 Ervay, and Adams Mark would all do themselves well to vanish in my book. But that's just my opinion.. I'm probably going to get jumped all over for it.

  14. #64
    Supertall Skyscraper Member texman's Avatar
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    Thanks jsoto...I guess i coulda of just searched that. silly me
    Last edited by texman; 22 October 2004 at 06:28 PM.
    "And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963

  15. #65
    Supertall Skyscraper Member texman's Avatar
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    Hey well hold on Drumguy, The building holds ALOT of potential other than looking like a 1970s Canadian condo tower.
    "And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963

  16. #66
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    It's disappointing such a large building is empty - but that may be a contributing factor to its vacancy. Come on drumguy, it's not THAT bad. It's a fine specimen of 50s building style - an important time in modern architecture's evolution where advancements in glass and unique deisgn and materials were integrated. It isn't my taste either, but I have to respect it.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by drumguy8800
    But that's just my opinion.. I'm probably going to get jumped all over for it.
    Well, you do have a way of overdoing it sometimes.

    Oh, and in response to the air conditioning units, I offer two remarks. The first is that at least they're not on top. Secondly...

    Last edited by freewaytincan; 22 October 2004 at 10:58 PM.

  18. #68
    dallacentric drumguy8800's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UrbanLandscape
    Well, you do have a way of overdoing it sometimes.
    "A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion"... "No wise man has called a change of opinion in constancy"... and of course, "Every man is a fool in some man's opinion".. and vice versa.

    nice picture.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by drumguy8800
    "A wise man makes his own decisions, an ignorant man follows public opinion"... "No wise man has called a change of opinion in constancy"... and of course, "Every man is a fool in some man's opinion".. and vice versa.

    nice picture.
    Thank you. Everyone else can find the (much larger) original image at my gallery - http://urbanlandscape.deviantart.com/gallery

  20. #70
    Skyscraper Member noelamador's Avatar
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    Redo is envisioned for derelict hotel
    Plans call for much of the Statler Hilton to become condos
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ton.7dbfa.html
    11:26 PM CST on Monday, March 21, 2005
    By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

    A Houston investor is negotiating to purchase downtown Dallas' derelict Statler Hilton Hotel and plans to redevelop the building. A Houston investor is in talks to buy the downtown Dallas hotel, which was once the flagship of the Statler Hilton chain. Gary Goff is joining a group of out-of-state partners on the project, which is in the early planning stages. Redevelopment plans call for converting much of the 19-story building at 1902 Commerce St. into residential units. "Our recommendation is to keep a portion of the building as a hotel and the rest of the building as condominiums," said Dallas architect Mark Humphreys, whose firm has done some preliminary design work for the buyers. "We're working on a lot of condo projects in other markets that include hotels."

    Mr. Goff could not be reached Monday for details about his proposal for the Statler Hilton. His Houston firm, the Gadfy Group, has optioned the 49-year-old Statler Hilton from Far East investors who have owned the property since the 1990s. The building most recently operated as the Dallas Grand Hotel but has been closed for several years. Several potential developers have looked at converting the vacant building into residential or other uses. Alice Murray, president of the Central Dallas Association, said Mr. Goff recently talked with city officials and other downtown business leaders about his plans for the old hotel. "They've been visiting with a few people about the project," Ms. Murray said. The 738-room Statler Hilton is one of the largest empty buildings in downtown Dallas.

    Built in 1956, it was once the flagship of the Statler Hilton chain and one of the largest hotels west of the Mississippi. The Hilton Hotel chain sold the building in the late 1980s when it pulled out of the downtown market.

    E-mail stevebrown@dallasnews.com
    Last edited by gc; 22 March 2005 at 10:24 AM.

  21. #71
    dallacentric drumguy8800's Avatar
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    Ah. finally. They also apparently want to build a comedy club at the bottom along with other assorted retail.

    Project Website

    I hope they do some major façade upgrades.

  22. #72
    Administrator gc's Avatar
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    Excellent.
    “We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”

  23. #73
    Super Moderator Tnekster's Avatar
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    So if I am reading the website pic correctly this property sits on the block next to the Atmos Energy contribution to the city. That is going to be a tremendous amount of construction and eventually a significant population increase in just 2 blocks of downtown. Really amazing, it also is close to the new grocery store on Jackson....again if I am reading this right.

    http://www.gadfy.com/projectareamap2.asp?id=1

  24. #74
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    It's good to see efforts underway to save buildings that are actually worth the investment.
    Dallas uber alles

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    Saved from destruction

    My wife and I are historians of the Hotels Statler Company, and have visited most of the extant properties of the company. Several years ago we spent a couple of days in the hotel with our three children, and to say we enjoyed ourselves is an understatement.

    The hotel, originally constructed with 1000 guest rooms, was undergoing floor-by-floor upgrading. Some guest rooms were combined, taking the originally small single rooms and tearing out walls from between them to make much larger room -- thus the current level of 714 guest rooms.

    At the same time, most of the original marble in the lobby had been replaced with a darker limestone; I don't think that was an improvement. The original registration desk was also taken out and replaced with a modern version. The Bell Captain had saved a large panel from the desk, and taken it home with him. At the stairs going up to the dining room and cafeteria, the original marble had been merely covered with carpet -- not very professional looking.

    Although the cafeteria was still intact as it had been built, it was no longer in service, and I gathered that the restaurant itself (in a much smaller spot than the old Cafe Rouge) was not necessarily that good. The bar in the basement was in disrepair, and was not scheduled to be renovated at that time.

    There were still vestiges of the Statler-Hilton: Some china in use was of the Statler service introduced in 1943 at the new Washington Statler. Going up to the rooftop swimming pool brought to light a laundry cart still stenciled "Statler-Hilton". The cafeteria still had china and silverware from the Statler-Hilton days. Many employees had begun work when the hotel opened, and were still working. One employee in accounting still wore daily the charm given to all employees the day the hotel opened. The charm is in the shape of the building.

    The bathrooms still retained the original fixtures, from the toilet built into the counter so that with the seat down it served as a makeup table and chair, and the sink still had the original faucet with a button for ice water, a feature of every Statler Hotel since the first Buffalo Statler built in 1908. Even most of the original Servidors are still hung!

    The hotel was designed as a Statler Hotel, and was well underway when the Hilton Hotel Company bought Statler in 1954. Hilton changed only the name of the hotel before it was opened, leaving the entire structure to be built as Bill Tabler had envisioned it (Bill Tabler, the architect, died just last year). Of course, the silver was all marked Statler-Hilton, but the hotel still stands today as the father of the modern hotel when layout and amenities are concerned. Mind you, the hotel doesn't have an atrium, but with that lobby, who needs it!

    I am hopeful that plans to reopen the building go forward. This year will see the destruction of the Detroit Statler built in 1915, but at the same time, the Cleveland Statler (1913) and the St. Louis Statler (1917) are still in the infancy of their new lives. The first Buffalo Statler and Hartford (1954) are gone, but the remaining hotels still enjoy life.

    Tim Trower
    Hotels Statler historian

  26. #76
    Administrator gc's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks for the info. Welcome to the forum.
    “We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”

  27. #77
    Supertall Skyscraper Member texman's Avatar
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    Thats cool info. I hope if they redo it, they keep its funky 50s retro look (hehe Drummys gonna love that).
    "And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963

  28. #78
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by texman
    Thats cool info. I hope if they redo it, they keep its funky 50s retro look (hehe Drummys gonna love that).
    Retro?

    I dont know 'bout that.... just keep the look, that building rocks.

    Edit:
    just keep the look, that building rocks, kid. :suave:
    Last edited by tamtagon; 24 March 2005 at 02:37 AM.

  29. #79
    Skyscraper Member sterling's Avatar
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    I think it's neat that the Statler has the "T or Y shape", three wings off a central core design, now almost a prerequisite for building huge Las Vegas hotels. I've always loved the hotel, it's era, and it's "space age" acoutrements as seen through 60's eyes. VERY TEXAS. I always felt "wickedness happening" in the Bombay Bicycle Bar there in the 70's. And should keep it much the way it was planned. Perfect for an Austin Powers movie.

  30. #80
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    I've always envisioned the Dallas Grand Hotel being converted into something like the Westin Century Plaza Hotel in Century City, just a few miles from Beverly Hills. The Century Plaza is bad ass and has a design that is somewhat similar to the Grand (from the front, at least):





    "You look at Chicago, New York, San Francisco, you'll find lots of small businesses. But here in Dallas, they hold up big businesses and kick out small businesses, and that's not good."

  31. #81
    The Urban Pragmatist Mballar's Avatar
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    ^Well. . .they definetly do look alike!
    A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

  32. #82
    Done Insidetheloop's Avatar
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    One of the stumbing blocks for this hotel was always the lack of on-site parking. If any renovation were to occur at this property a new multi-story parking garage will need to be built. Since foreign investors owned the property little was done to maintain it's once nice appearance. Like others mentioned, I met a number of original employees who had practically worked at the hotel since day one.

    In 1998 my company had a lease on parking spaces through Central Parking System across the street at Main & St. Paul. The four story garage there was originally designed for valet access only and the ramps are very steep. I believe plans are in the works to raise this property and possibly build a greenspace of some sort.

    The Grand Hotel prior to it's closure used the valet garage across from Old City Hall. I seem to recall it holds less than 100 cars. 1700 Pacific and the Bank One Building have tiny underground garages...that will be a critical issue if this "urban" fad turns into something more permanent.

    In order for any development to happen at all in that area so much of the basic infrastructure needs to be upgraded. Moving the Stewpot and liquor stores out of that area would be a step in the right direction too. Alot of office workers in that area of town call it the "Bum Triangle". If you could imagine drawing a line between the Stewpot, the liquor stores on Main and Elm...and the Dallas Public Library.

  33. #83
    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Insidetheloop
    I believe plans are in the works to raise this property and possibly build a greenspace of some sort.
    Yes, the city plans to demolish all of the buildings on the block across Commerce and build a park. There is the potential to build the park on top of a sub-grade parking garage and the redevelopers of adjacent blocks should be permitted to use the garage to help satisfy the parking requirements for their projects.

    See the following document (start on page 30 of 83 for this particular park):
    http://www.dallascityhall.org/dallas...parks_plan.pdf

    And also see the following thread for forum discussion of the downtown parks master plan:
    http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/sh...ks+master+plan

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    Parking at the Statler Hilton

    Quote Originally Posted by Insidetheloop
    One of the stumbing blocks for this hotel was always the lack of on-site parking.
    I would agree with this statement. In the earliest days of the Hotels Statler Company, the hotels were generally situated near major rail stations. As more travelers began to go by car, Statler responded by including a parking garage either across the street (as in Buffalo 2) or very close by (as at St. Louis). This trend was continued up to the opening of the Hartford Statler, the last in the chain to be opened before the takeover by Hilton.

    At Dallas, I've never found any evidence that there was a Hilton-owned parking facility, leaving the hotel at the mercy of long-term leases with nearby garages. Quite frankly, Hilton financed part of the massive $111 million buyout of Statler by selling many secondary properties, and other properties that had been purchased for future expansion.

    When we stayed at the Grand (nee Statler-Hilton) the parking garage used was valet only, diagonally across the street from the hotel. Certainly not a garage that I would want to park cars in, it seems to have been built only as a valet lot. I personally would much prefer to self-park in a secure facility. So plans that would include sub-surface parking to replace the out-modeled valet parking would be a nice touch to redevelopment of the hotel.

    The last I knew, the owners of the Grand had purchased the old library on the same block for use as a gym for the hotel. Does anyone know if this conversion ever took place? Frankly, that location would work great for a dedicated garage for the hotel in its redevelopment.

    Just my two cents worth.

    Tim

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by US75Guy
    No offense taken. lol. I see things like that SBC tower with no shape or form and I get a little queasy myself. How can you make anything beautiful out of that!! That is the only building I've ever known that actually IMPROVED when they stuck that swirly logo on the southside a few years ago. At least it gave something of semi-interest to stare at....
    You know, I was going to say the same thing about the Fort Worth SBC building.

    Back on topic: The 1950's style is not my favorite either, but I do appreciate tasteful architecture and I do believe the building is rather tasteful for its time period. Drummy, unfortunately most people feel the way that you do and we stand a chance to lose many of our 1950's buildings just as they are becoming eligible for historic status.
    http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com - Architecture in Downtown Fort Worth
    http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum - The Fort Worth Forum
    http://www.dallasarchitecture.info - Architecture in Downtown Dallas

  36. #86
    Mid-Rise Member drycreek's Avatar
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    I really don't like those park plans for the block in front of the Grand. There's just too much going on. Why can't they just create a nice tall elliptic shape fountian in the center with nice trees around the edges? There's no place to just park your butt in the current plans. Way too much going on, needs to be simplfied.

  37. #87
    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drycreek
    I really don't like those park plans for the block in front of the Grand. There's just too much going on. Why can't they just create a nice tall elliptic shape fountian in the center with nice trees around the edges? There's no place to just park your butt in the current plans. Way too much going on, needs to be simplfied.
    I agree. Frankly, I think that particular proposal won't fly and we'll end up seeing a more traditional park as you have described.

  38. #88
    Skyscraper Member sterling's Avatar
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    I agree about this particular proposal. It is good to remember that to come up with any kind of funding, someone has to visualize something and put a "ballpark" price tag on it (don't mean to "preach to the choir"). They know there will be certain electrical, plumbing and paving needs. This design seemed to include all of the "bare essentials", but never seemed particularly inspired. And if I were the designer involved, I certainly wouldn't "give away the farm" before I knew how great a chance there would be of it becoming a REAL project assigned to ME. I think we will see something like this approach, but probably with the axis changed. It's focus seems to start nowhere particular and end nowhere in particular. I also believe a more centralized plaza and fountain anchoring the park will help the design make more sense when and if the time comes).

  39. #89
    Mid-Rise Member drycreek's Avatar
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    I agree. Frankly, I think that particular proposal won't fly and we'll end up seeing a more traditional park as you have described
    Cool, I hope so...

  40. #90
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    I am a little confused on the redevelopment of this hotel. Is it the orginal owner who is refurbishing it or has a developer decided to remodel it. If it is a developer has anybody heard what developer that may be?
    Green Grass Studios
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    Dallas Grand Hotel downtown

    The Dallas Grand Hotel downtown. . . any word on redevelopment? I heard Phillipe Starck was looking at it before he decided on building The House in Victory.

  42. #92
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    Who did you hear that from? I'll need a name, date, phone number and county of birth.

  43. #93
    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    Please search for existing threads before posting new ones. Here is the existing thread:
    http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/sh...ht=grand+hotel
    See post #70.

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    Well, this would definitely be a great project for Philippe Starck. I hope he considers it. Perhaps a hotel/condo project.

  45. #95
    Super Moderator Tnekster's Avatar
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    ^What would they do with those 8ft ceilings?

  46. #96
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gc
    The 738-room hotel on Commerce Street was built in 1950s as the Statler-Hilton and is owned by Hamsher International Ltd. of Hong Kong.
    My favorite part of the building is the signs indicating that parking is only for employees of Hamsher International. They say "Hamsher Parking Only", which I keep seeing as "Hamster Parking Only". All it needs now is a few thousand Habitrail sets.

    (Sorry, but I've been dying to find the thread to post that on!)
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

  47. #97
    Done Insidetheloop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster
    ^What would they do with those 8ft ceilings?
    The lack of onsite and offsite parking practially kills that project. Since the city is buying the parking lot across the street with no plans of incorporating an underground parking garage, the Grand Hotel idea is all but dead for now.

  48. #98
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    Either I had a dream or last night at the bond meeting (with councilmembers Hunt and Griffith) I heard Laura Miller say that either Forest City was interested in this building or that the city is trying to get Forest City interested in this building --- she went on to talk about the park going in across the street between the Merc and the old Dallas City Hall.

    Anyone else heard this?

  49. #99
    Stuck in the past clipper's Avatar
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    I've heard they are trying to get them interested. But this would come after all the Merc and Atmos buildings. That would be years and years away. And there's still the problem of the low ceilings in the building which make it tough to redo.

  50. #100
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    Thanks Clipper, I couldn't hear too well at the meeting and I got there late.

    As for the low ceilings, why not slap some paint and carpet, knock out a few walls, add kitchenettes and rent it out as 'middle-income' housing? Why does it have to be a total redo?

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