Where DART *NEEDS* to add rail service
I made a diagram/map of a rail line that I believe NEEDS to be built. The parts of the line in black are underground (god forbid), while the parts in blue are above ground or elevated. I have shown all the stations I propose on the map as red dots with red titles. The small section of rail from Mockingbird Station to Cityplace Station is an extension of the Blue Line that I think ought to be built to better serve SMU (if that conservative school even cares for direct rail) and the Knox-Henderson area. Without further adieu, here's the diagram: http://img362.imageshack.us/img362/4041/dart2ha4.png
Last edited by Phillip; 03 September 2008 at 08:15 PM.
I just wanted to point out that DART already has a subway "station" carved out at Knox/Henderson, and SMU is already served by the Mockingbird station. I don't ever see the millionaires who live in the neighborhoods up and down Preston ever agreeing on a rail line at or near Preston, whether it be at or below-grade .
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
SMU is served by the Mockingbird Station, but it takes about 15-20 minutes just to get there by foot. You also have to cross 75, and we all know how pedestrian-friendly that is. SMU does offer a shuttle (partnered with DART) that takes students for free from Mockingbird Station to Bishop Blvd and vice versa), but that's essentially indirect access.Originally Posted by Mballar
This "proposed line" is all just a pipe dream, but I thought it worthy of posting anyway.
I might add, Know/Henderson could be finished by Dart within two years, once to go ahead is given by Dart's board. All that's needed is for a future TOD developer to ask for it.
Whereas I agree the billionaires along Preston or Dallas North Tollway most likely will not allow a light rail line, they may in the future accept a streetcar line up Preston or Inwood. Besides, they aren't likely going to need to use cheap mass transit, although their household help would. But, some of the busiest bus routes in Dart's service area, do that already, and the help's bus stops are never more than a block away from the mansions. Dart could have followed the old MKT line into Union Station in Dallas if they wished, instead of tunneling under North Central Expressway, but the billionaires in the Park cities wanted and got a pedestrian and bike path instead.
Or in other words, they billionaires are getting and are happy with the service that they get from Dart.
Last edited by electricron; 03 September 2008 at 09:23 PM.
SMU is just three small (half) blocks away from Mockingbird Station. Not that far a walk for teenagers and young adults. Bicycles make that journey quickly, and also come n handy on the campus. The Mockingbird-US75 exit is pedestrian friendly.
Unfortunately, the other 99% of the population, in addition to tourists and visitors, would benefit from a DART line to important places such as the Galleria, Quorum (for business people), Addison Circle, Legacy Town Center, Preston Center, Highland Park Village, the Gaybourhood of Oak Lawn, and Uptown. If the billionaires don't want rail stations, we can just bypass them. But some destinations like the Galleria, Oak Lawn, Uptown, and Preston Center are musts for DART.
^Uptown and Oaklawn can probably be satisfactorily serviced by a series of streetcar connectors that link into existing/planned DART Light Rail Stations. The Galleria and Preston Center Areas would probably be better served by an LBJ line, starting at DART's LBJ/Central Station, headed West along LBJ into those areas.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
Once Dart builds the regional rail on the Cotton Belt line, a 2 mile streetcar line could reach the Galleria down Inwood from the Addison Transit Center. Total cost for a 2 mile streetcar, $50 to $60 million.
Total cost for your 10 mile light rail line, tunnels and above ground, at least $1 billion. I just saved the Dart taxpayers over $900 million.
Most of the people going to the Galleria are from the east or west anyways.
The question is, if other cities can do it, why can't Dallas?
Houston's METRO Rail will service the Galleria/Uptown area when it expands westward. Here in St. Louis, where I'm going to school, the Saint Louis Galleria is serviced by MetroLink rail, as is the important business area of Clayton (which is like a larger, glorified, more pedestrian-friendly Preston Center). In addition, the two stations next to my school are both underground stations. If a city like St. Louis can do it, why can't Dallas?
What do you mean "if other cities can do it, why can't Dallas?" Dallas (+12) IS doing, and we did it a lot earlier than lots of other places (Houston for example). Your plan looks great except for one thing: COST! How the hell are you going to pay for that massive construction bill...especially if you are seriously considering tunneling under the Tollway. There are other issues too (population density, demographics, parking, land availability, right-of-way acquisition, etc...), but cost is certainly the most damning issue. A lot of the corridor you laid out is already served by various bus routes (both local and express), and could be even better served with certain BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) features, like signal prioritization and queue-jump or bus-only lanes along at certain congested locations. These things are still expensive, but nowhere near the cost of rail (subway!) construction.
Last edited by palchik; 04 September 2008 at 12:58 AM.
Yes, Dallas did it 8 years earlier than Houston. But I can't think of any other places off the top of my head that have implemented light rail (or any kind of high-speed commuter rail) since. St. Louis did it earlier than Dallas did by a couple years. Currently, MetroLink in St. Louis is about tied with DART in terms of passenger volume, but that's St. Louis we're talking about, a much smaller city. Houston, on the other hand, is not exactly the most progressive city in the country, both politically and in adapting new things like mixed-use real estate development and light rail. I agree with you that population density, land availability, and right-of-way acquisition are issues, but St. Louis has found ways to deal with those issues to make sure that the rail lines go through the most needed locations around the metro area. The city has a few underground stations (though the majority are still above-ground), has built a large parking garage at one of its stations instead of the surface parking we find at DART stations, and seems to use quite a bit less right-of-way in laying out its rail than DART does. I'll snap some photos or something to give you guys a glimpse of St. Louis' system. I'll have to research cost differences between DART rail and MetroLink to determine why St. Louis is able to fund underground light rail stations while Dallas isn't.
Nice map.
I have thought about this line often. I agree Dallas needs it. An alternative alignment from Lemmon to 635 may be to have the line go NW some once it reaches Lemmon instead of going North to Highland Park. There would then be a second station on Lemmon W of the tollway, after which the line would go north and travel up Inwood until it reached 635. This would, hopefully, avoid most of the pain of trying to get a line through the park cities and may possibly reduce the need for a subway. Maybe the line could be put on the surface of Inwood. It misses out on Highland Park Village and Preston Center though, but that might be OK.
Just off the top of my head, systems that have launched or will launch rail systems after DART:
Houston
Minneapolis
Salt Lake City
Albuquerque
Phoenix
Charllote
Austin
Denton County
Portland (Street Cars)
Tacoma
If rail-based transit were being treated like the highways of the Robert Moses era, the plan would have a chance. In the 50s and 60s, any line on a map could become a highway, regardless of the impact on those unfortunates beneath the ink.
But while the plan has me salivating -- you have a station a half mile from my desk -- it's got no chance of being more than a dream. The segment from Quorum to East Carrollton, in particular, would require ripping out the new condos and the traffic circle at Addison Circle, bulldozing several acres of private jet hangars at Addison Airport, and demolishing several office buildings and a shopping center and some apartments at Trinity Mills and Midway. Better to just put the whole thing in a tunnel.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
KNOX-HENDERSON!!! (thats all) hahaha
Why the hard-on for the Galleria?
The current system runs nearby NorthPark, which is as good if not better than the Galleria, and you have Park Lane Place right next to the Park Lane Station.
Tighten the female dog!
As hard (ahem) as it is to route any sort of rail to the Galleria complex, you've got to admit it's got the makings of a great station location. It's got a major regional mall, multiple office towers, and a large luxury hotel all crammed into a dense footprint that would make any new-urban planner swoon. Not to mention Valley View Mall right across the way, and new urban development planned nearby. Though it's designed for automobile access, the Galleria area can be easily "retrofitted" as the largest TOD outside of Downtown itself.
I've argued against the LRT tunnel under LBJ because of the costs, but there's no denying that a Galleria Station would be the jewel in the crown. I'd love to see the station design.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
It wouldn't be that hard. We are doing it here in CA where we can't expand due to the concentration of homes. So instead rail is being built on elevated tracks (like some of the HOV lanes in Dallas), in the middle of the freeway. I think this type of line would be great from downtown to the Galleria area, and on to Addison in the middle of the tollway.
We're talking about practical uses for the line, not just pleasure. Anyone who has driven on the DNT during rush hour knows that that corridor could be a HUGE one for DART. Between Frisco and DTD along the DNT is one of the largest employment centers in North Texas! I office in the Galleria and I hear everyday from people who live in Plano and Frisco about how they would ride DART to work if it were easier. I'm sure that the same goes for a lot of folks who work in DTD and Uptown who live in West Plano or Frisco. I'd be willing to bet that a good percentage of them would gladly trade their hour+ commute (one way) every morning to hop a train to get to their office. I know that there is an express bus. The problem with that is that it is subject to the same traffic that cars are and it is usually crowded. In most suburbanites' mind, they may as well just drive themselves if they have to deal with that.
I agree that NP is better than just about any shopping center in the nation. The difference is that the number of jobs along the DNT near the Galleria far outpaces those along NCX on its way to DTD.
For practical purposes, it would be easier for businesses, those who want to use DART, to move along existing rail lines (DTD, Telecom Corridor) or to areas with future lines (Las Colinas). IJS.
Tighten the female dog!
I think I understand the point that you are trying to make. Between all of the red tape and drama associated with building this line, it would be easier to convince all of these companies to abandon the Platinum Corridor and build/move along NCX or to Las Colinas.
That is the problem with politics in this region. If rail were treated like highway infrastructure, this line would have been constructed years ago. It just makes no sense to me that we can spend billions of dollars on a toll road in between levees and on a city-owned hotel, but we can't muster the political will to build some infrastructure that would greatly improve the quality of life for area residents and help alleviate congestion on one of the most crowded arteries in the city.
I understand that there is a lot of money and political clout in the area of the dream line that we would like to see built. That doesn't make it right. I have never understood why we only do things like DART in a hap-hazard manner. If we are goning to invest in infrastructure such as this, we need to commit fully.
For some reason, elevated rail in the freeway median never gets discussed as an option in DFW. Like the I-635 tunnel -- I can't see why the first option isn't to run it over LBJ instead of under, for a billion dollars less.
A lot of the issue may be aesthetics. Remember that early plans for Central Expressway included double-deck elements, but they were swatted down HARD. Part of the reason may be the mess that is the Austin double-deck, which is a poorly designed kluge on top of the unchanged 1940s highway underneath.
Of course, that goes double for any DNT routing. The Tollway is a strange beast -- if you ignore the odd double traffic light, you can just about pretend it doesn't even exist in the Park Cities. There's no way they'll go for an elevated track above the tollway.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
First off, TXDOT can't afford to build freewyas or tollroads anymore. It will be the NTTR building the Trinity River Parkway/Tollway. It sells bonds to raise cash to pay for these large capital projects. The toll roads pay for themselves because drivers are willing to pay the tolls.
Any light rail line will be built and paid for by Dart, maybe with some Federal funds, maybe not. To get Federal funds, there can't be any controversy, caused by locals NIMBYers, which will certainly arise over this project. Without Federal funds, Dart can't afford to spend $125 million per mile subway, or $100 million per mile above grade rail. Golly, Dart needs Federal help to build $60 million per mile mixed rail, some at grade and some above grade.
The subway up North Central will eventually have three rail lines through it, the blue, red, and orange lines.
Your subway up DNT at most will have just one rail line. The subway up North Central is three to four miles, your subway up DNT will be 10 miles long. Where's the bang for Dart's buck?
As I wrote yeasterday, Dart can get to the Galleria with light rail or a streetcar from the Addison Tranisit Center. What's so wrong with that?
Last edited by electricron; 04 September 2008 at 05:42 PM.
That is why DTD and places along the rail lines will have a competitive advantage in the coming years. If the Galleria area is to get rail service, it will be either a spur along what is left of the old Cotton Belt Line to DTD, or the property owners in the area are going to have to persuade Dallas and DART to revive the LBJ line. Dallas wanted a line to an industrial area and the suburbs wanted the CB Line more. As it stands, an LBJ line will be included in DART's 2045 plan.
If you are talking density, then yes, but NCX has more jobs than the Galleria.I agree that NP is better than just about any shopping center in the nation. The difference is that the number of jobs along the DNT near the Galleria far outpaces those along NCX on its way to DTD.
You will see more and more of that in the coming years.
I think you missed the point of my post. I'm not talking about JUST getting to the Galleria. I'm talking about relieving congestion on the DNT and connecting two very large employment centers. A spur to the Galleria would not achieve this.
But the regional rail line on the Cotton Belt could, and that's what gets to Addison Transit Center (ATC)first . People could catch a ride at ATC, ride the regional rail to either Plano or Carrollton, and catch a light rail train to downtown Dallas. If you're suggesting uptown, they don't even have to ride the light rail train all the way to downtown Dallas.
Will it be as quick as riding a direct train? No. But you'll still get there by train.
From the West Plano Transit Center (WPTC), you could catch a direct express bus to ATC, a direct express bus to Carrollton, a direct express bus Parker Road Station, or a direct bus to downtown Dallas. Lot's of choices.
But there is no room in the DNT right of way for an at grade train line. Going up or down for 10 to 20 miles is very, every expensive. It's not like the DNT is the one and only corridor in the metroplex. There are other corridors than need and want light rail too. And I don't think locals will like a 10 to 20 mile light rail line down any city street.
Let's just take a Google Map gander at the Galleria area.
Note the train tracks at Inwood and Spring Valley.
Then look at a Google Map of Addison Transit Center.
Note the ATC at Arapahoe and Quorum, then the railroad wye just to the west.
The tracks leading south go to Inwood and Spring Valley. Guess who owns the right-of way? DART! The distance between the two locations is just 1.5 miles. Add another half mile to get to Alpha Road, for a grand total of two miles.
Why should Dart spend over a $Billion to get to the Galleria when they can spend probably less than $100 million for a streetcar, or just $30 million for a regional rail DMU train to connect the Galleria to it's rail network over tracks it already owns?
Get real! With a streetcar, Dart saves #900 million to spend for another 10 miles of tracks somewhere else, like light rail to West Dallas towards Grand Prairie, or 10 miles of light rail to Master's Drive towards Mesquite, or most likely just 5 miles on both!
Weaving a right-of-way through North Dallas is gong to cost more than weaving the right-of-way through Irving, which is 50% or more over its intial budget. Dart usually stays within budget when it sticks to railroad right-of-ways it already owns.
Which plan do you think gets more bang for Dart's bucks? Yours or mine?
Last edited by electricron; 04 September 2008 at 07:37 PM.
You do realize those rail lines are active, don't you?
But none where's it cost justfied. Of course, that describes the existing lines, too.
I can't believe SMU students can't walk five or six blocks to Mockingbird Station on the Red and Blue lines. Public transit is a mix of rail and buses, not rail only. And a rail line is NOT designed to be anyone's private transporter, front door to front door. This is called a cab.
As far as the North Tollway and Preston Corridor, those rich people won't want it in Preston Hollow just as much as those in HIghland Park refused the MKT line through Uptown. Monorails failed in Seattle for a reason, they will fail here too. Its one thing to build an overpass or underpass of a highway for short periods of time, its another to pay so much over 10 miles. The only reason the Central subway was built was because DART intended to use two lines through it, and eventually three lines.
Why can't the Galleria use trolley car buses as Northpark? and others? Save at least a billion.
Last edited by SeaToby; 04 September 2008 at 08:24 PM.
Yeah, yeah we got it, no transit system is ever cost effective in your expert opinion. Thank you broken record.
Rail lines are a lot cheaper when there is no right of way to buy, or using right of way already bought. Imagine right of way thirty feet up through Preston Hollow? Yes, the billion became two billion.
I suggest you read Star Trek and dream about personal transporters.
The Cotton Belt will remain active, and so will this spur to a warehouse area.
While DMU trains using the Cotton Belt mainllne will not be able to run as frequently from Ft. Worth to Plano because the passenger trains will have to share the tracks with freight trains, just like on the TRE. But on the warehouse spur, time separation of the freight trains to midnght to 5 am is possible, Over just 2 miles, averaging a lowly 30 mph, a single train can achieve 8 minute headways in both directions. Dart wouldn't even need to double track those two miles.
I don't expect passenger train service could achieve 8 minute headways on the Cotton Belt mainline without double tracking, but 20 to 30 minute headways are possible during rush hour on single track. Just add sufficient passenger trains and stations to increase the number of passing tracks.
The Dart owned Cotton Belt could connect Wylie Tx to SW Ft. Worth or cities further south and west, like Cleburne and Weatherford. All of them connected to DFW Airport and the Galleria. Isn't DFW airport as much if not more a prize as the Galleria? Wouldn't having both on the same line be even a greater prize?
Last edited by electricron; 04 September 2008 at 08:34 PM.
Yeah, I've seen the elevated light rail along 110 Freeway near Torrance. The station in the middle of the highway at PCH and 110 is the one I have pictured in my mind right now. It reminds me a lot of the trains in Chicago, such as the line through the middle of Eisenhower Expressway (Interstate 190) except elevated. Dallas could definitely do something like that. Even St. Louis has one of its Clayton stations elevated above Forest Park Parkway (which is a semi-freeway). I don't think it's possible for it to be done along the Tollway, however, since the right-of-way is so narrow, and there's not even a grassy median to work with. Tunneling seems like the only option south of Northwest Highway.
I agree with everything you've said. In addition, the bus has a stigma in many middle- and upper-class suburbanites' minds of being transportation for low-income people (this appears to be the case all over the country except for the most crowded cities such as New York). Light rail seems to be more popular as a form of mass transit for the suburban crowd. And you're right, this line would be HUGE for DART. I'd be willing to guess that it would probably be the busiest out of all the lines, since it goes through the major employment and entertainment areas in the heart of the city.
West Dallas and Mesquite would have far less passenger traffic than any north-south line. You have to invest a lot in the beginning to get a good return in the long run, not try to save all your money initially and hope your lack of investment will pay off larger-than-expected dividends. That's the way it is with a restaurant, and that's the way it will be with light rail. Would you locate your restaurant in a hidden corner of a shopping center just because the rent is cheaper? Or would you rather get a visible, albeit more expensive location where you have a much better chance of doing well later on?
I think they should just knock out the center two lanes of the Tollway and turn them over to DART. Have elevated and below grade stations, and then have a subway underneath Mockingbird, giving the people in Garland and Rowlett, a direct way to Love Field.
Just my two cents.
Teleportation is going to make cars and trains obsolete.
Putting aside the fact that the DNT is already overloaded, the engineering doesn't work. The tollway was built to 1950s standards, and has a profile like a roller coaster -- up to ground level, then down under a cross street, then back up, then back down. I don't think you could physically run light rail on it, even if you could manage to squeeze two sets of rails into the space.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
In addition to the multi-billion dollar subway along DNT, DART should purchase some Chinooks and build helipads at the Galleria, Legacy Town Center, Telecom Corridor, DTD, etc. We need to give people more options.
Tighten the female dog!
You obviously don't understand the mindset of the riders that would be using this line. The reason why the red line took off so well is that it was easy. You park at a station up north, hop on one train and get to your destination. I guarantee you that if at any point along the line you had to transfer to an express bus, the ridership numbers would be dismal.
To your point about the cost: If you are going to spend billions to set up infrastructure such as this, why not put another billion with it to do it RIGHT. We spend a billion dollars on trivial things all the time. The whole point of rapid transit is to get people off the roads and get them to their destinations as quickly as possible. Why would you not want to connect three major employment centers with the most populous suburbs in the system?
Who cares about Mesquite. You can try all day long to get voters there to join DART, but it won't happen. With the exception of Frisco, all of the cities that this line would serve are part of DART and have been since the beginning. Why build a "line to nowhere" when you have a huge corridor that is in your largest member cities that has no service.
IMO, over the life of the line you would get significantly more "bang for your buck" on a direct line from DTD to Frisco/Legacy. Not only in ridership, but also in reduced emissions, economic growth, and tax revenue from the boom in development that you would see along this line.
You can talk about how much something costs per mile and all of the other "hard numbers" that you want. I am not an expert on mass transit, so I will have to defer to you on that. What I can speak to is the psyche of the North Texas suburbanite and the real estate departments of major corporations. You would have tons of companies relocating to the CBD if they could get their workers who live in the northern burbs to work on the train.
Having an east-west line where you have to transfer or hop on an express bus may work in cities with established transit systems, but in a city like Dallas, you have to make it less complicated than driving to get people to fully embrace rail. Right now, it's easier to hop on the DNT to get to DTD or hop on Preston to drive to your office in Frisco. If DART is going to realize it's full potential as an asset for Dallas, it has to think in a more wholistic(sp?) way. You put up the initial investment -- and do it right, not half-assed and the end result will be a system that is easy to use and one that the citizens of the area will embrace fully.
Please take the time at Google Earth, or Google Maps, and count the number of high density apartments within a quarter mile along the DNT between LBJ and Lemmon. How many can you count? I found just ONE!
Then check the same out the Red Line and Blue Lines north of Mockingbird.How many did you find? I counted hundreds along both lines, easily over a thousand on both lines.
Then check the same out for the Green Line. You'll find hundreds of high density commercial and residential along that corridor, and lots of vacant land to build more on. I'm sorry, but there's very little vacant land along the DNT south of LBJ.
Light rail needs density along the corridor to work. The DNT corridor doesn't have any density over 7 miles. Golly, there really isn't a good place to place a station that will attract a sufficient number of passengers over those 7 miles to make it worth putting a train station in. I might also add, developers won't tear down mansions in residential neighborhoods to install apartments either.
So, it's a lousy corridor for light rail over these 7 miles. Which is why Dart will never build it. Most of the traffic on the DNT over these 7 miles is through traffic.
I understand your point. I still don't think that you get mine. Maybe I'm not expalining it clearly enough, so I will drop it. No need to subject everyone to a rehashing of something that I have explained three different ways.
Found alot more than that, you could have a station at these streets, they all have lots of apts or shops around.
Oak Lawn
Maple
Wycliff
Ceder Springs
Lemmon
Granted all those above are close to each other so maybe just pick 2 of them
Lovers
There alot of apt back there and you have all the shops around there.
Nw Highway
Have all the offices and condo tower
Royal
the preston royal shopping area
Harvest Hill
Plenty of apt and office space, also need one stop before 635 so its easier to cross.
Galleria Rd
For the mall and all the apts and shops near by
I suspect Lakewooder may not agree with that. :-)
What the city needs to do is invest in some bike lanes as well and the distance around each staion that people would be willing to travel would be higher. How about a policy when ever a new station is built that bike lanes must be added to all major streets with in a mile of the station. As a way to encourage people to ride their bikes to the station. It amazes me, I have been spending quite a bit of time in the suburbs on seattle and they have tons of bike lanes.
I did write and mean finding apartments and high density between LBJ and Lemmon. I wasn't and didn't mean counting those at Lemmon and LBJ.
The shopping centers you counted are really small strip shopping centers compared to what you'll find in Uptown and at the Galleria areas. Uptown is at most a mile away from the Green Line, a short walk or bike ride away. The Galleria is at most two miles from Addison Transit Center, where the Cotton Belt Line will be built. Over the seven miles, looking at it from a transit agency's point of view, the North Dallas area along the DNT is a wasteland, it might as well be farmland.
Since the Galleria and Uptown areas will have train stations on future rail lines being built or planned today, there's really no need to build a very expensive direct rail line between them.
North of LBJ, and south of Lemmon along the DNT, there is density. But in between, there isn't when compared to what you'll see along the Green, Red, and Blue Lines.
There's so little density, just a regular scheduled bus, and express bus service, can carry the passengers this line could generate locally. You can find many more areas of Dallas and it's surounding suburbs with far more density, and which would rate a light rail line before the DNT corridor.
If we really wanted to build a long light rail line along a freeway or toll road corridor to the Galleria area, the LBJ corridor would have far more density than the DNT. And I'm not even advocating it, as I believe the Cotton Belt Line will suffice for the immediate future.
And I do get you point, that there is and will be much "through" traffic along this corridor. But you seem to not have gotten my point, that the "through" traffic can be routed to bypass this north south corridor east and west of it very cheaply. Much cheaper than building a line where there's no room at grade to build and very little density to support light rail.
I would even go as far to say that a much cheaper rapid bus or streetcar line along Northwest Highway corridor would serve the Prestonwood Shopping area better than one along the DNT, with bus stations at both the Orange, Green, Blue and Red Lines. At least that would tie all four north Dallas light rail lines together, and would accommodate far more passengers getting to where they want to go more directly in far more directions.
Last edited by electricron; 05 September 2008 at 03:46 PM.
In one of the other "blue sky" threads, there's a suggestion of a subway under Lemmon. If you simply must have a rail line that goes underground from Downtown to the Galleria, that would be a much more workable option. You could even use cheaper cut-and-cover techniques instead of a deep-bored tunnel, at least where the water table allows it (deep-bore is required in the Love Field area because of a high water table).
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
At Inwood Road, Lemmon is just 0.6 miles away from Dart's Inwood Station on the Green Line.
How close together should Dart build light rail and subway lines? I don't think 0.6 miles apart is an acceptable answer.
But I wouldn't necessarily disagree that a streetcar line up Lemmon from Cityplace Subway Station on the Red & Blue Lines to the Inwood Station on the Green Line is a good idea. Between the two, service in the Uptown area will be great.
But then again, you face very low densities all the way to LBJ along either Inwood, Midway, or Marsh.
Keeping in mind that we're clearly in blue-sky territory, as though the agency had virtually unlimited funding.
The plan in another thread (which I should search for, but don't have time at work) included a line from the downtown core through the middle of Uptown, then heading north on Lemmon. It would meet up with the Green Line under Love Field (where, if DART had the trillions this thread would require, we'd have had a subway station long ago).
Actually, though, I misspoke when I suggested Lemmon as an alternative to the DNT -- oops! I meant Preston Road. If you're going to spend multiple billions just to have your rail line go directly to the Galleria instead of west from TI Station or east from Carrollton, you'd want to put it under Preston Road instead of the DNT. There are a lot more logical station locations on Preston than there are on the DNT. Maybe you could even get the Parkies to go for a station under Highland Park Village... nah, this thread is for blue-sky ideas, not complete insanity.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Preston Road at Blackburn is 0.7 miles away from Dart's Cityplace subway station.Keeping in mind that we're clearly in blue-sky territory, as though the agency had virtually unlimited funding.
There are a lot more logical station locations on Preston than there are on the DNT. Maybe you could even get the Parkies to go for a station under Highland Park Village... nah, this thread is for blue-sky ideas, not complete insanity.
Again I ask, how far away should light rail trains should be built? Don't you agree less than one mile apart is a little too close?
If we're going to send a light rail line up Preston, why not Hillcrest, Inwood, Midway, Marsh, and Webb's Chapel too?
I always thought Dart using major corridor studies to discover where to build a line, and population densities on where to place stations, and ridership studies for both, was a fair way to determine where to place light rail lines.
But obviously, people want light rail lines a half mile apart, so the most they have to walk to any light rail line station is less than a quarter mile.
Golly, even along the rail lines, most stations are further than a half mile apart.
Take the Red Line in Dallas. The distance between Cityplace and Mockingbird is 2.4 miles. The distance between Cityplace and Pearl is 1.3 miles.
I would think NOT having light rail lines closer than the distances between stations would be common sense, from an affordability point of view.
Dart can barely afford the lines it's building now. I guess Dart needs to add another penny sales tax, above the penny it already charges, to please those who want rail lines every mile. It would still take them 100 years to build such a system up.
Of course, State Law prevents that. 8.25% is the highest the State will allow.
Last edited by electricron; 05 September 2008 at 07:03 PM.
The people of Lake Highlands and far North Dallas have insisted on sound barriers between light rail and their homes. Now you are suggesting a line down the middle of Preston Road in Highland Park. Highland Park rejected the MKT line at the beginning for noise reasons, insisting the red and blue rail lines run down a tunnel below Central.
However, I would agree as a luxury we could have a rail line where the North Dallas Tollway is. Unfortunately, we built it as a turnpike, not as a rail line. No rail line exists, nor is there any density. Its a vast expanse of very wealthy suburban homes with very few shopping centers. Electricron is correct, this rail line won't meet density targets, or price targets without a rail line.
DART is more than rail lines, its also a bus transit asset as well. As I said before, if you want front door to front door service, call a cab. And please, don't tell me the citizens of Preston Hollow can't afford a cab.
At best a street car may work, but I doubt whether the citizens living in Preston Hollow would accept the noise of a street car.
Last edited by SeaToby; 05 September 2008 at 07:45 PM.
The city of Dallas does not do dedicated bike lanes. The only one in the entire city (on Mockingbird) was removed. I recently made the comment on the DMN site that the city bicycle coordinator considered them to be the Spawn of Satan. He responded on his blog that he's probably said worse things about them http://cycledallas.blogspot.com/2008...his-issue.html (worth the jump just for the graphic). So, for better or worse, don't expect to see any in Dallas for the foreseeable future.
I don't know what all this talk about the DNT corridor being low-density is about. First of all, building a rail line shouldn't be all about density of residential neighbourhoods...stations should serve business and shopping areas too. I can name a dozen high-density residential and/or commercial areas along the DNT/Preston going north all the way to Frisco.
1. Uptown/Crescent (apartments, condos, restaurants, bars, you name it)
2. Lee Park (lots of high-rise apartment buildings, Turtle Creek, Katy Trail, restaurants)
3. Oak Lawn Gaybourhood (pedestrians everywhere, bars, high-density housing)
4. Lemmon Ave (restaurants and high-density condos)
5. Highland Park Village (major Dallas/tourist/visitor shopping destination)
6. Lovers Lane shops (near Inwood Theatre, busy shopping district)
7. Preston Center (great potential to be more pedestrian-friendly, major shopping, offices, high-rise condos)
8. Preston Royal Shopping Center (busy intersection, busy shopping district, Whole Foods)
9. Galleria (big tourist shopping destination, high-density housing, major employment area)
10. Quorum (high-density office towers, lots of employment, apartments)
11. Addison Circle (high-density housing, restaurants, shops, night-life, celebrations/festivals)
12. Legacy Town Center (apartments, shops, restaurants, pedestrian activity, hotels, businesses, Angelika)
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