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Thread: The DART Experience

  1. #351
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter View Post
    Yes, we should never base the system on the most cost-effective, flexible system available.

    Cities don't get to be World Class by worrying about things like reality.
    Please elaborate on what 'World Class Cities' public transportation systems are based on buses (similar size/population please).

  2. #352
    Member tacosoup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    Please elaborate on what 'World Class Cities' public transportation systems are based on buses (similar size/population please).
    Seattle, Ottawa, Sydney, Los Angeles, all have rail but are "bus based" more trips on buses than rail. If Bogata is world class, then Bogata, and Curitiba.

  3. #353
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacosoup View Post
    Seattle, Ottawa, Sydney, Los Angeles, all have rail but are "bus based" more trips on buses than rail. If Bogata is world class, then Bogata, and Curitiba.
    Seattle is great, but it's land area hardly compare to that of DFW. Ottowa and Curitiba populations aren't even close. The best city to compare from above is Los Angeles (although, I admit I'm not familiar with Sydney or Bogata).
    I lived in Los Angeles for 15 years and took transit (usually bus) regularly. While you are correct about it's proportion of ridership bus vs rail, the bus system is atrocious. You'd have a hard time finding anyone who uses it regularly describe it as 'World Class'. Other than the Orange Line (BRT that operates as rail), you are a slave to traffic and it takes you FOREVER to get anywhere. Getting from the West San Fernando Valley to Hollywood by bus takes you an hour and half ONE WAY during rush hour if your lucky (only about 16 miles). While the Orange Line (BRT on dedicated ROW) cut this down considerably, it is grossly over crowded and most experts agree this should have been a light rail line. 'Cost-effective' and 'efficient' do NOT come hand in hand and LA is a prime example of this.
    I agree that BRT has a place in DFW (probably more so than LA), but it's best use would be outlying areas (Plano, Lewisville, Preston Corridor, etc). But BRT is more closely related to rail systems than it is to traditional bus models. The sprawl and resulting traffic make traditional bus models unworkable in cities like these (LA/DFW).

  4. #354
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    The issue in Dallas is money. Rail expenses are crowding out the buses, increasingly only making them short range feeders. Frequencies almost never increase and with each change, the time between runs on many runs increases. Hub and spoke is efficient for airlines, not passengers. Same thing applies in transit and people face infrequent bus to rail to infrequent bus to get to destination and then reverse the process on the return.

  5. #355
    Metropolist-in-the-making jrd1964's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin View Post
    One item I look at when new schedules arrive is when is earliest you can get to the airport. 7/30 schedules have some quirks.
    - Orange line has early AM runs headed north from Bachman, but none from south of Bachman until after 6 AM.
    - to get to Irving (and in December to Belt Line) before 5:30, you have take Green Line to Bachman and then Orange to Irving/Belt Line. Earliest flight out is likely 7 AM if shuttle from Belt Line is any good.
    - you can get to end of Orange about 45 minutes earlier on weekends. Same need to use Green Line. Everything just starts 45 minutes earlier.
    - though you can get to Inwood by 5:15, first 39 bus does not get you to Love Field until 6:30. First flight you can reliably catch is 7:45-8 AM. Hopefully the December shuttle service will start earlier.
    If the New Year's Eve mess (trains will run late!!! --but no mention of bus schedules, which didn't run any later at all) is any indication, I'm not a bit surprised that DART isn't synched with airport flight schedules. If I can't even make my bus-to-bus connections half the time (if that), then it'll be a safe bet for now that people will be late for flights trying to use DART.

  6. #356
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Under the new fare structure (going in Dec '12), the TRE up to centerpoint station is going to be the same price as local boardings on dart trains/buses. I'm curious how much faster it would be to take TRE from downtown to Centerpoint > shuttle vs Orange line from downtown to beltline > shuttle. I'm willing to bet TRE wins that race hands down.

  7. #357
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    The existing bus/train arrangements are very good except on Sunday, my main vacation travel day. Still looking forward to shuttle to Belt Line on Sundays. Unfortunately I do not think the trains will make getting to early flights very viable. I would have thought the starting shift at DFW would merit something to arrive by 6 am, but I do not see it in proposed skeds.

  8. #358
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin View Post
    The existing bus/train arrangements are very good except on Sunday, my main vacation travel day. Still looking forward to shuttle to Belt Line on Sundays. Unfortunately I do not think the trains will make getting to early flights very viable. I would have thought the starting shift at DFW would merit something to arrive by 6 am, but I do not see it in proposed skeds.
    I wouldn't rule it out... I really see the connection to the airport (once it's done) being more of a hit than most expect. It may take six months to a year after its done to fully realize it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they created a couple of early bird runs after that.

  9. #359
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Finally DART is about to bring digital ticketing to the DART system!!! THis news item was posted on August the 28th so someone might want to check on what was done at the meeting.

    http://transportationblog.dallasnews...ting-app.html/

    “Mobile Ticketing : A first step towards seamless regional fare solutions.” Nevertheless, let me explain: DART’s this close to contracting with Danish software company Unwire to create a mobile ticketing app that will “allow riders to buy tickets at their convenience using a web-enabled mobile phone, avoiding the need to deposit cash into a farebox or use a ticket vending machine,” per the afternoon agenda item.
    Time table for implementation is mentioned below. Check the actual article for the screenshots of the app that will offer this.

    And DART hopes the cashless solution to rail-riding isn’t too far down the road: According to DART spokesman Morgan Lyons, the revenue committee will sign off on the idea on September 11, when it will also make its bow in front of the Committee-of-the-Whole. Two weeks after that Lyons expects the board will approve the contract with Unwire.

    DART still has to get Fort Worth and Denton County on board; the Dallas transit authority expects that’ll happen by no later than December 31. Says Lyons, DART needs its partners to ride along “because we want to maintain a seamless system.”

    After that’s done Unwire will begin deployment, which is expected to debut ’round March 2013, with full roll-out finished by October of next year. (Update: Lyons also notes via email that “Phase 1 is selling tickets. That’s by first of March. Phase 2 is where we would bundle it with other items. For example, you could buy a ticket and that day’s DMN with a single purchase.”)

    And how will it work? And look? The PowerPoint below reveals all, including sample screenshots of your iPhone or Android come this time next year. The future is now.

  10. #360
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    ^^^
    Very cool. Great idea going for the optical 2D bar-code. This is something that I'd bet a vast majority of riders phones already support and would be adapted quickly. But, it's good to see an SMS option as well.
    I'm willing to bet this will INCREASE ridership... Maybe not to a huge extent, but to an extent none the less.

  11. #361
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    Possessed Animals

    Saw this on imgur, thought it was funny:


  12. #362
    Mid-Rise Member mdg109's Avatar
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    I just saw the digital signs showing time til next train downtown this weekend. This is a huge step in the right direction.

  13. #363
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Something I think DART should consider if they haven't already done so...
    With the length on the Light Rail system as extensive as it is, it seems the amount of time to get from outlying areas to the core is quite long. In LA's metro, an 'express' train was added to the gold line (from Pasedena to Downtown LA) that eliminated all, but critical stops between the beginning and end of the route. It shaved about 12 minutes off the trip to downtown if I remember correctly.
    Should DART consider something similar? Thoughts?

  14. #364
    Just kidding (80%) art_suckz's Avatar
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    There definitely needs to be express trains (especially to the airport when its open)... does this increase the likelihood of mishaps tho since you'd have to do it with 2 tracks instead of 4? Or am I over complicating it?
    "I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."

  15. #365
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by art_suckz View Post
    There definitely needs to be express trains (especially to the airport when its open)... does this increase the likelihood of mishaps tho since you'd have to do it with 2 tracks instead of 4? Or am I over complicating it?
    The way METRO did it in LA was to have the express train leave just a couple minutes prior to the next 'standard' train. By skipping stops at some stations, it eventually catches up to the previous standard trains and arrives a minute or so after it... at the final destination (no leap frogging). That means the most time you could make-up would be the headway between the two standard trains, minus a couple of minutes. But that's still an improvement in my opinion.

  16. #366
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    There are possible advantages to this concept in Dallas...the question would become what would be the frequency of local service trains and how many connections between trains and/or buses can be made for those needing the local service to get on or off at local stops.

  17. #367
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    I think as each exurban/suburban transit authority works up routes for local train service, incorporation with the DART Light Rail system must include sharing the cost to build the strategic double-track and/or station bypass allowing express service into Dallas.

  18. #368
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    The Gold line in LA doesn't share its tracks with any other lines. Every line in Dallas does. Therefore, an express Orange line train leaving DFW just before a normal train won't save much time as falls behind a normal Green line train. And all the lines will get delayed when trying to squeeze an extra express train onto the mall in downtown Dallas.
    For an express train to work on DART's light rail system, the lines with express trains need triple tracks, including the downtown mall. Only one station on DART's light rail system has triple tracks and three platforms.

  19. #369
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron View Post
    The Gold line in LA doesn't share its tracks with any other lines. Every line in Dallas does. Therefore, an express Orange line train leaving DFW just before a normal train won't save much time as falls behind a normal Green line train. And all the lines will get delayed when trying to squeeze an extra express train onto the mall in downtown Dallas.
    For an express train to work on DART's light rail system, the lines with express trains need triple tracks, including the downtown mall. Only one station on DART's light rail system has triple tracks and three platforms.
    I agree the green line merge would be a bit difficult, but I also believe this area has room for a 'station 'bypass' track (probably somewhere along Love field). Once the train gets to downtown, it's no longer an express train and shouldn't be separated from transit mall. Bypassing downtown wouldn't make any functional sense. Because the rail routes to the south don't extend nearly as far out as those to the north, I don't see a purpose/benefit for southerly express routes.

  20. #370
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    Tragedy on the TRE this morning: a man was
    “trespassing” on the DART tracks on a train trestle west of the Medical/Market Center Station and was struck by a TRE train traveling westbound at 7:40 a.m. Nearly two hours later, Dallas-Fire Rescue is still working to remove the body from the tracks.
    By 10:00, trains were running normally.

  21. #371
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    I agree the green line merge would be a bit difficult, but I also believe this area has room for a 'station 'bypass' track (probably somewhere along Love field). Once the train gets to downtown, it's no longer an express train and shouldn't be separated from transit mall. Bypassing downtown wouldn't make any functional sense. Because the rail routes to the south don't extend nearly as far out as those to the north, I don't see a purpose/benefit for southerly express routes.
    Along Love Field there's already a 3rd track and a 4th track occasionally in the corridor for freight trains. There isn't room for a 5th track. South of Mockingbird Lane the light rail tracks go aerial for the next two stations and don't return to grade until south of Harry Hines where there's already a 3rd and 4th track for the TRE, there isn't room for a 5th track again. So where are you going to fit a bypass track for your express light rail trains? There's a third track at Bachman Station which could be used as a bypass as long as there isn't a train using it to swap direction to head for the maintenance yard.
    I don't think DART trains on two different lines keep to a schedule tight enough to make express trains work with just that one short bypass track available at Bachman St station. To make express trains work all day long to DFW airport, you have to have express trains running in both directions all day long too. With trains turning at Bachman Station as well, you'll be overloading that short third track. It's only about a third of a mile in length, much too short for normal scheduling allowances. Take a look at DCTA passing sidings lengths for comparison, they're a mile to two miles in length.
    Last edited by electricron; 25 October 2012 at 06:40 AM.

  22. #372
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron View Post
    Along Love Field there's already a 3rd track and a 4th track occasionally in the corridor for freight trains. There isn't room for a 5th track. South of Mockingbird Lane the light rail tracks go aerial for the next two stations and don't return to grade until south of Harry Hines where there's already a 3rd and 4th track for the TRE, there isn't room for a 5th track again. So where are you going to fit a bypass track for your express light rail trains? There's a third track at Bachman Station which could be used as a bypass as long as there isn't a train using it to swap direction to head for the maintenance yard.
    I don't think DART trains on two different lines keep to a schedule tight enough to make express trains work with just that one short bypass track available at Bachman St station. To make express trains work all day long to DFW airport, you have to have express trains running in both directions all day long too. With trains turning at Bachman Station as well, you'll be overloading that short third track. It's only about a third of a mile in length, much too short for normal scheduling allowances. Take a look at DCTA passing sidings lengths for comparison, they're a mile to two miles in length.
    Keep in mind... The express trains aren't additional trains... They'd replace every 3rd, or 4th currently scheduled local train, but simply leave a little later. If both the Green and Orange express trains ran at the same schedule 2-3 min variance between Bachman & Downtown, there is no need for bypass track as they wouldn't be conflicting with eachother. Current headways are no less than 15 mins between trains for a given route. That gives you up to 28mins to 'catch-up' with the previous standard train. With more realistic time savings of 15 minutes and Orange/Green express running just a couple of minutes apart, there is no need for new bypass track.

  23. #373
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    Keep in mind... The express trains aren't additional trains... They'd replace every 3rd, or 4th currently scheduled local train, but simply leave a little later. If both the Green and Orange express trains ran at the same schedule 2-3 min variance between Bachman & Downtown, there is no need for bypass track as they wouldn't be conflicting with eachother. Current headways are no less than 15 mins between trains for a given route. That gives you up to 28mins to 'catch-up' with the previous standard train. With more realistic time savings of 15 minutes and Orange/Green express running just a couple of minutes apart, there is no need for new bypass track.
    You can't have it both ways, from express trains run immediately in front of a regular train to now an express train running instead of a regular train. I think it's far easier to explain to riders at pass through stations the earlier rather than the later. I don't think the latter will ever be acceptable.

    Just about every transit agency in the world that runs express trains do so on triple or quadruple tracks. Why is that simple fact so hard to understand? How many times does that fact have to be pointed out just to be ignored later in the same thread over and over again?

    I GIVE UP!

  24. #374
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron View Post
    You can't have it both ways, from express trains run immediately in front of a regular train to now an express train running instead of a regular train. I think it's far easier to explain to riders at pass through stations the earlier rather than the later. I don't think the latter will ever be acceptable.

    Just about every transit agency in the world that runs express trains do so on triple or quadruple tracks. Why is that simple fact so hard to understand? How many times does that fact have to be pointed out just to be ignored later in the same thread over and over again?

    I GIVE UP!
    Settle down now... Everything will be okay. It's actually pretty simple. If right now you have trains leaving at 8:00, 8:15 & 8:30, you simply turn the 8:15 train into an express train and have it leave @ 8:25 instead.
    If those same trains used to arrive in downtown at 8:45, 9:00, & 9:15, now the express train arrives @ 8:50. That makes it a 25 minute trip compared to 45 minute trip for standard train.
    You are right. This has been done before, but no... it doesn't require additional track. I have ridden LA Metro's gold line when going to Hooters in Pasadena. It's a quicker trip, and no additional track is necessary. Anybody who's ridden DART and stopped at stations that have nobody at them knows what benefits an express train can bring. And the fact that in can be accomplished now via schedule adjustments and not infrastructure changes should be open for discussion.

  25. #375
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    Settle down now... Everything will be okay. It's actually pretty simple. If right now you have trains leaving at 8:00, 8:15 & 8:30, you simply turn the 8:15 train into an express train and have it leave @ 8:25 instead.
    If those same trains used to arrive in downtown at 8:45, 9:00, & 9:15, now the express train arrives @ 8:50. That makes it a 25 minute trip compared to 45 minute trip for standard train.
    You are right. This has been done before, but no... it doesn't require additional track. I have ridden LA Metro's gold line when going to Hooters in Pasadena. It's a quicker trip, and no additional track is necessary. Anybody who's ridden DART and stopped at stations that have nobody at them knows what benefits an express train can bring. And the fact that in can be accomplished now via schedule adjustments and not infrastructure changes should be open for discussion.
    As I answered before, the Gold line in LA doesn't share any of its corridor with trains from another line, so significant gains can be made. None of the DART lines are so well off, all lines share. It would also help if you used DART headways, 20 minutes non rush, 15 minutes during rush.
    Southbound DART trains at Bachman Station (where the Green and Orange lines join)....
    Green 0603
    Orange 0606
    Green 0618
    Orange 0621
    Green 0633
    Orange 0636
    Green 0648
    Orange 0651
    Green 0703
    Orange 0707
    Green 0718
    Orange 0722
    Green 0733
    Orange 0738
    Green 0748
    Orange 0753
    As you can see, the Green precedes the Orange line around 4 to 5 minutes every time. One might think you could make up 10 to 11 minutes by running an express to downtown on the Orange line before catching up to a Green line train. But that's forgetting the northbound Red and Blue line trains join before West End Station.
    Here's the same hours at the West End Station heading east.
    Blue 0605
    4 minutes gap
    Orange 0609
    5 minutes gap
    Red 0614
    Blue 0617
    Green 0622
    3 minutes gap
    Orange 0625
    5 minutes gap
    Red 0630
    Blue 0633
    Green 0637
    3 minutes gap
    Orange 0640
    5 minutes gap
    Red 0645
    Blue 0648
    Green 0652
    3 minutes gap
    Orange 0655
    5 minutes gap
    Red 0700
    Blue 0703
    Green 0707
    3 minutes gap
    Orange 0710
    5 minutes gap
    Red 0715
    Blue 0718
    Green 0722
    4 minutes gap
    Orange 0726
    4 minutes gap
    Red 0730
    Blue 0733
    Green 0737
    4 minutes gap
    Orange 0741
    3 minutes gap
    Blue 0744
    Red 0747
    Blue 0750
    Green 0752
    5 minutes gap
    Orange 0757
    4 minutes gap
    Red 0801

    Can you now see there isn't much room to squeeze in another train? And can you see delaying any Orange line train 3 to 5 minutes so it can tranverse the entire Orange line 3 to 5 minutes faster isn't accomplishing much?
    There's no practical way to implement your express trains until DART finishes building the D2 corridor through downtown Dallas, because there's no place to put any express trains. My way would be possible, but requires an unaffordable third track on the corridor(s) express trains are desired.
    Last edited by electricron; 28 October 2012 at 08:28 PM.

  26. #376
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Lets try not to get into a huff just because you two guys see things differently. Try to express your ideas in civil way to each other. There is no reason to start antagonizing each other over something as simple as theoretical express DART train routes.

  27. #377
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    Is not it past time for DART to announce its schedule changes for after 12/3 expansion goes on-line? It is less than one month away. If the info is on the site, I cannot find it. I would think it would give customers at least 30 days notice as bus patrons get pushed on to the expanded rail. I am also interested in the Belt Line plans and how it will use the lot there.

  28. #378
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin View Post
    Is not it past time for DART to announce its schedule changes for after 12/3 expansion goes on-line? It is less than one month away. If the info is on the site, I cannot find it. I would think it would give customers at least 30 days notice as bus patrons get pushed on to the expanded rail. I am also interested in the Belt Line plans and how it will use the lot there.
    I can't find them either, so obviously what you and DART think are different. Maybe they think two weeks or even one week notice is sufficient.

  29. #379
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    I looked back to the July expansion. DART made the announcements exactly 7 days prior.
    I do not really understand the brief time since they have to already have employees scheduled and even done test runs. The printers must have the proofs to print the schedules weeks early. The graphics arts people have to install the new signs. The IT people have to get the network ready. Everybody knows but the customer.

    At some point, DART will flush all the managers good at wearing the white construction helmets and get some people there that know how to run a customer focused business.

  30. #380
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    New bus and rail schedules are available. Schedule is to meet each Orange and Green line at respective Belt Line and Inwood Stations with new buses 500 and and 524. Earliest arrival at DFW looks to be 4:19 AM out of West End getting to Belt Line at 5:01 with arrival at DFW A at 5:27. Probably earliest flight out you could make is 6:30 AM. Earliest Love Field is leave West End at 5:02, Bus to Love Field at 5:18 arrive coincidentally at same time as DFW, 5:27. Earliest flight is likely 6:30 AM. Late night and weekends look good. $7 to park at Belt Line overnight. Commuters in jurisdiction can park free. You might be able to catch AAC event if downtown worker and get back before 17 hour limit expires.

  31. #381
    High-Rise Member cmacemm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    Settle down now... Everything will be okay. It's actually pretty simple. If right now you have trains leaving at 8:00, 8:15 & 8:30, you simply turn the 8:15 train into an express train and have it leave @ 8:25 instead.
    If those same trains used to arrive in downtown at 8:45, 9:00, & 9:15, now the express train arrives @ 8:50. That makes it a 25 minute trip compared to 45 minute trip for standard train.
    You are right. This has been done before, but no... it doesn't require additional track. I have ridden LA Metro's gold line when going to Hooters in Pasadena. It's a quicker trip, and no additional track is necessary. Anybody who's ridden DART and stopped at stations that have nobody at them knows what benefits an express train can bring. And the fact that in can be accomplished now via schedule adjustments and not infrastructure changes should be open for discussion.
    Trains do this on the brownline in Chicago sometimes, like this morning. and I was late to work because of it

  32. #382
    Skyscraper Member ChampionDallas's Avatar
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    DART investigates potential station naming rights profit:

    For more than a year Dallas Area Rapid Transit has contemplated selling the naming rights to its transit stations. It’s a cash-generating concept — from Philadelphia to Cleveland and San Diego to Phoenix for starters. And other cities, chief among them Boston, are looking to hop aboard that gravy train. So why not do it Dallas? Well, because DART General Counsel Hyattye O. Simmons told the DART board in August 2011 that doing so would violate the transit authority’s renaming policy, which, Simmons said, “excludes the use of business names, product names, and personal names unless the name is also a street name or a well-known destination.” That’s why not.

    Except that’s not stopping DART: Tomorrow, as you’ll see in the docs below, its Revenue Committee will vote on hiring Cleveland-based The Superlative Group to market DART’s station naming rights and other corporate sponsorship opportunities. That means selling the naming rights to light-rail lines and bus routes. So you could have, say, the Big Red Line. Or Bus Route Formula 409. Or not. Let’s just say: DART’s looking to make some green off the Green Line and leave it at that.

    The Superlative Group — whose contract with DART is worth $99,483 for consulting services, plus 9.5 percent of new generated revenues — would prefer to keep quiet till the ink’s dry on the contract, which will take a few weeks as it passes through the Committee-of-the-Whole and the full board. So, instead, we turn to DART spokesman Morgan Lyons, who says the board figured it was about time to see what kind of revenue’s out there.

    “And it’s not always as obvious as we might think,” he says. “Jerry Jones still hasn’t sold the naming rights to Cowboys Stadium, after all. The first part will be to figure out what’s available, what could we sell the naming rights to — and for how much. We think we have some assets, so we’ll see how this plays out.”

    Far as The Atlantic‘s concerned, this is a bad idea. Lyons says wait and see: He expects the process will take about a year to play out.

  33. #383
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionDallas View Post
    DART investigates potential station naming rights profit:
    Something else they should consider for $$$ is selling adds on the walls of the red-line tunnel. Other cities have done so in a manner where a chain of murals flashes by the window to create a motion picture (commercial) as the train zips by. It's actually pretty cool when it's done right... and that tunnel length would be perfect for it.

  34. #384
    Skyscraper Member ChampionDallas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    […] where a chain of murals flashes by the window to create a motion picture […] as the train zips by. ]
    Having lived in Denver, I always enjoyed riding Denver DIA's Automated Transit System. It had something like this made from tiny propellors. I believe that it also had reflectors that were positioned so that they created a moving image as the train passed, such as a hand striking a miner's pick. Pretty neat stuff.

  35. #385
    Sea™ CTroyMathis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    Something else they should consider for $$$ is selling adds on the walls of the red-line tunnel. Other cities have done so in a manner where a chain of murals flashes by the window to create a motion picture (commercial) as the train zips by. It's actually pretty cool when it's done right... and that tunnel length would be perfect for it.
    Some fun zoetrope action. . . (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/sh...Subway-Station)

    Additionally, last Friday I landed on a train that had numerous video screens in place on it, but, weren't turned on. So far, 0 for 1 this week. Chime in if/when you see them in action.

  36. #386
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTroyMathis View Post
    Some fun zoetrope action. . . (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/sh...Subway-Station)

    Additionally, last Friday I landed on a train that had numerous video screens in place on it, but, weren't turned on. So far, 0 for 1 this week. Chime in if/when you see them in action.
    I'm only eight years behind here... I should have figured this would have already been mentioned. The content on this forum never fails to impress.

  37. #387
    Metropolist-in-the-making jrd1964's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    Is not it past time for DART to announce its schedule changes for after 12/3 expansion goes on-line? It is less than one month away. If the info is on the site, I cannot find it. I would think it would give customers at least 30 days notice as bus patrons get pushed on to the expanded rail. I am also interested in the Belt Line plans and how it will use the lot there.
    Quote Originally Posted by electricron View Post
    I can't find them either, so obviously what you and DART think are different. Maybe they think two weeks or even one week notice is sufficient.
    I just saw a new announcement guide on a bus yesterday. I think it's a little unusual to wait to release the info officially till 2ish weeks before the change. Especially if it's a major set of changes like what's taking place in December (extensions of 2 rail lines, new bus routes, timetable changes on some bus routes, reroutes of other bus routes, and a few routes going away).

  38. #388
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    Something else they should consider for $$$ is selling adds on the walls of the red-line tunnel. Other cities have done so in a manner where a chain of murals flashes by the window to create a motion picture (commercial) as the train zips by. It's actually pretty cool when it's done right... and that tunnel length would be perfect for it.
    Do you realize how much lighting it would take to light those murals in that very dark tunnel? I don't see DART's Board spending that much to light those murals.

  39. #389
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron View Post
    Do you realize how much lighting it would take to light those murals in that very dark tunnel? I don't see DART's Board spending that much to light those murals.
    DART doesn't pay for the lighting... the advertising does.

  40. #390
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    DART doesn't pay for the lighting... the advertising does.
    Come-on, do you really expect advertisers to pay to install all the new transformers, lighting panels, conduit, and wiring in the DART owned tunnels? They might be willing to pay the electric bills, but not the upfront capital costs that will remain long after any deals they made with DART. Get real!

  41. #391
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron View Post
    Come-on, do you really expect advertisers to pay to install all the new transformers, lighting panels, conduit, and wiring in the DART owned tunnels? They might be willing to pay the electric bills, but not the upfront capital costs that will remain long after any deals they made with DART. Get real!
    Advertising agencies sign agreements for years at a time and pay for all necessary equipment installations. MARTA's agreement with Submedia is quoted below...
    Submedia fabricates and installs (at no cost to the host city) the display boxes and advertising placements. The company earns its revenue from advertising charges and shares that with the host transit authority.

  42. #392
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    Advertising agencies sign agreements for years at a time and pay for all necessary equipment installations. MARTA's agreement with Submedia is quoted below...
    I can see them doing so in public places, like billboards along DART's rail lines, where more than just train riders can see the ad. If you're going to place ads that can only be seen from DART trains, why not put those ads on the train themselves, where riders don't have to look out a window to see them? Where every rider can see them, not just those who are riding the trains in a tunnel.
    Get real! If this idea could realistically fly, it would have already been implemented, or at least many advertisers would have been clamoring for such in DART's tunnels. The fact they haven't been speaks far more truth to me.

  43. #393
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    ^ Some of the DART rail vehicles do carry advertising on the outsides now, similar to DART's buses.

  44. #394
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfwcre8tive View Post
    ^ Some of the DART rail vehicles do carry advertising on the outsides now, similar to DART's buses.
    Yes, where everyone can see them. Not a series of graphics hiding in some very dark tunnel where no one looking out of the light rail vehicles will ever see them.

  45. #395
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron View Post
    I can see them doing so in public places, like billboards along DART's rail lines, where more than just train riders can see the ad. If you're going to place ads that can only be seen from DART trains, why not put those ads on the train themselves, where riders don't have to look out a window to see them? Where every rider can see them, not just those who are riding the trains in a tunnel.
    Get real! If this idea could realistically fly, it would have already been implemented, or at least many advertisers would have been clamoring for such in DART's tunnels. The fact they haven't been speaks far more truth to me.
    This isn't some pie in the sky idea. It's already used in public transit tunnels across Asia, as well as those of New York, Toronto, Atlanta, London, SF, and LA's Metro is looking into it. The draw isn't based on the # of people who see it, but the level of which it's retained by the observer. I hardly doubt it could generate the cash flow as it does in some of those cities, but I'm sure it would still generate some. There are about a dozen agencies that provide such services now, but I have a feeling Dallas doesn't come to the top of the list when considering underground transit. I'm also curious if DART's current advertising agreement prevents it from working with other agencies for this service. I know in New York, they had a clause that separated the tunnel advertising from its standard advertising agreement.

  46. #396
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    New DART bus service to provide direct link to D/FW, Love Field airports
    By TOM BENNING Staff Writer tbenning@dallasnews.com
    Published: 21 November 2012 08:02 PM
    http://www.dallasnews.com/news/trans...ion=reregister

    Travelers longing for a DART connection to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport can soon print their boarding passes.

    And just in time for next month’s holiday travel madness.

    A DART rail stop at the airport is still a couple of years away, but on Dec. 3, the transit agency is starting direct bus service to D/FW’s Terminal A from both the Orange Line’s new Belt Line Station in Irving and the Trinity Railway Express’ CentrePort station in Fort Worth.

    The Belt Line Station, debuting that day as part of DART’s expansion of the Orange Line, will also feature up to 200 spots for long-term paid parking, which the agency included with air travelers in mind.

    All that doesn’t necessarily guarantee that the airport connector, a 15-minute bus ride to the terminal from the Belt Line Station, will mean a quicker trip than fighting the traffic on state highways 183 or 114.

    But DART officials hope the bus service — which will cost $2.50 one way, with parking for as little as $7 a day — will provide a cheaper alternative to leaving a car at D/FW.

    And the agency is confident that the buses will provide a more convenient option than riding the current public transportation option, which is a journey involving multiple connections, or arranging to get rides from friends or family.

    “The target is going to be the business traveler, quick-trip traveler,” DART spokesman Mark Ball said. “But there’s big potential for more.”

    DART is also launching a new direct bus service Dec. 3 to Dallas Love Field from the Orange Line’s Inwood Station, although there’s already a conventional bus line that serves the same purpose.

    Both new connectors, which together will cost DART about $2.5 million a year to operate, will feature smaller, 17-passenger vehicles. The buses will be outfitted with an area to store luggage, and lower floors to aid travelers carrying bags.

    The bus lines will sync with the Orange Line’s schedule — running every 15 minutes during peak periods — to allow for more seamless travel. The connector linking with the TRE’s CentrePort station won’t match perfectly, although officials said buses will be plentiful.

    And both the D/FW and Love Field lines will require the standard DART system fare, which will increase on Dec. 3 to $2.50 for single rides or $5 for a day pass.

    The new D/FW connector could be especially popular with travelers, given that DART’s only public transportation alternative involves riding a train, transferring to the TRE, getting off at the CentrePort station and then taking two free shuttle buses to reach a terminal.

    DART’s early projections are that more than 1,000 people will use the new D/FW bus line each day.

    Part of that optimism comes from the paid parking option at the Belt Line Station, which DART officials predict will be popular with airport employees and those going on trips.

    Daily parking will be free for residents of DART-member cities, while it will cost $2 for everyone else.

    Long-term parking for residents of a DART-member city will cost $7 a day, although those users will have to get a sticker that proves their residency. For all others, parking for more than 18 hours will cost $9 a day.

    By comparison, long-term parking at D/FW’s remote lots costs $8 a day, and that rate increases to $20 a day for spots closest to the terminals.

    “There are people who drive who don’t want to get in the traffic area of the airport,” said Todd Plesko, DART’s vice president of planning and development. “So there’s a real market here in Dallas for that. … We have something unique for people who want alternative airport parking.”

    Interviews with several travelers at D/FW this week indicated that it might take some time for the new service catch on.

    Many arriving and departing are from out of town. Even more are from parts of North Texas where it’s not as convenient to ride DART or park on the eastern side of the airport.

    But at least a couple of people, as they waited for someone to pick them up outside Terminal A, said they wouldn’t mind another way to get to and from D/FW.

    “I’ll be honest, I’ve never set foot on DART,” said Marilyn Hodges, a Dallas resident who lamented the heavy traffic surrounding the airport. “But that would be a great option.”
    Follow Tom Benning on Twitter at @tombenning.

  47. #397
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    Centreport users should be aware buses will be timed to meet Belt Line trains and will have fixed times at Centreport. TRE users might now be used to having buses there on arrival. Benefit is you now bypass DFW Remote South. System also relies that you have boarding pass and will enter security with carry on at Terminal A. If you are one of the 12% (the few, the proud, the brave) at DFW that do not use AA, and need to check bags, you will have to use the Terminal Link buses to get to your terminal, probably E.

  48. #398
    DART Bus fan DalLove444's Avatar
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    Hey all. Haven't been on this forum in a few years and sorry for the bump, but there's some little thing about today's DART service change, especially regarding Cityplace station and bus route 521 that has bothered me all day. Not to mention the fact that I normally stay at Best western Cityplace on Fitzhugh whenever I visit.

    Thing that has always baffled me about Dallas in general: why is it when an area achieves a good population density, but then DART later decides to either reduce frequency of service on any given route, or totally obliterates it. What are the demographics like? Not that it's a contributing factor. But in curious. No one likes buses? Or is it like the Uptown where there are wealthier folks that either don't use them or loathe seeing DART buses on their streets? Again not suggesting a correlation, only curious. Thanks.

  49. #399
    Skyscraper Member muncien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DalLove444 View Post
    Hey all. Haven't been on this forum in a few years and sorry for the bump, but there's some little thing about today's DART service change, especially regarding Cityplace station and bus route 521 that has bothered me all day. Not to mention the fact that I normally stay at Best western Cityplace on Fitzhugh whenever I visit.

    Thing that has always baffled me about Dallas in general: why is it when an area achieves a good population density, but then DART later decides to either reduce frequency of service on any given route, or totally obliterates it. What are the demographics like? Not that it's a contributing factor. But in curious. No one likes buses? Or is it like the Uptown where there are wealthier folks that either don't use them or loathe seeing DART buses on their streets? Again not suggesting a correlation, only curious. Thanks.
    Speaking for Irving here... You'd be hard pressed to find a full bus; even during rush hour. I don't think demographics plays as much a role as people think. I think it has more do with with urban planning and how the city is laid out. So much of the commercial/retail is setup along freeways & highways (as it should be) that the 'gaps' created between them (more residential) tend to elongate trips and make them one-way based as opposed to cities like LA where every corridor has commercial/retail and residential is mixed within the grid. The later allows buses to run at capacity in both directions throughout the day. While your likely to find something similar around Bishop/Oak Cliff, along with high occupancy buses, a majority of the area isn't conducive to such.
    Unfortunately, the economics can't support the low ridership here. One thing I have noticed lately is a big increase in the use of short busses by DART. This is a good step, but not likely to have much impact in the long run.
    My two cents...

  50. #400
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muncien View Post
    ... So much of the commercial/retail is setup along freeways & highways (as it should be) that the 'gaps' created between them (more residential) tend to elongate trips and make them one-way based as opposed to cities like LA where every corridor has commercial/retail and residential is mixed within the grid....
    Watch bus ridership increases along with Dallas County population. By the time South Dallas and North Ellis Counties finally open up to massive suburban neighborhood developments, much of Central Dallas will have a population density building to what's 'enjoyed' in Los Angeles. With the light rail system in place just as the wide scale build up in Central Dallas has begun, the buses will become even more useful. Suburban commuters will flood the system as urban residents make a three mile bus ride across the city, um, not scary. Transit in Central Dallas will resemble San Francisco and Los Angeles and Chicago and (*sigh*) Portland. The Dallas Blend is going to end up leading transit solutions for all Sunbelt population centers.

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