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Thread: 2008 Elections

  1. #101
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    Futures circuit breakers are very near, DOW down 550 (they are at 548 as I write this) NasDaq down 85 (down 83.75 as I write this) S&P down 60 (at 60 as I write this). This would stop futures trading lower until market open at 0930. This could be the worst sign yet of an economic debacle. Grim signs out of Asia and Europe adding to the trouble. Songs will be sung about these times.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
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  2. #102
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Texas Alt.country artist James McMurtry's We Can't Make It Here Anymore captures this moment in history perfectly:
    Will work for food
    Will die for oil
    Will kill for power and to us the spoils
    The billionaires get to pay less tax
    The working poor get to fall through the cracks
    Let 'em eat jellybeans let 'em eat cake
    Let 'em eat sh$%, whatever it takes
    They can join the Air Force, or join the Corps
    If they can't make it here anymore
    The fact that he wrote it in 2004 just shows that some people weren't taken by surprise when the fat cats' pyramid scheme collapsed.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

  3. #103
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    One thing that has me hopeful is that most of the polls I've read involve calls to 'likely voters' via their landlines. Many people (myself included) no longer have a landline at all and are unreachable to these polls. I think we probably skew a bit younger & leftward. Not to mention, only a certain sort of person actually even answers a landline these days and only a certain sort agrees to co-operate with polltakers. But suppsosedly these last two factors are figured in.
    I am guessing that many folks with landlines [and caller ID] see the 800 number and don't answer. With the depressed economy, many of them might be getting a good share of collection calls for overdue credit cards right about now and avoiding ALL 800 numbers would be a pretty good way to do it.
    Just taking a SWAG, I would assume that many of the folks who are behind on their bills, due either to personal decisions or the economy would tend to lean left about right now. They would have to blame somebody and it is the folks on the right that are the most obvious targets.
    Even Caller ID skews younger, and perhaps leftward too then? I assume responsible polls try to factor out age, but then age is self-reported unless they're using intellius, also a lot of old people forget things, like how old they are.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
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  4. #104
    Supertall Skyscraper Member psukhu's Avatar
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    Texans looking ignorant in the international media...

    23 percent of Texans think Obama a Muslim, poll shows

    Full article from the Star Telegram: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1008239.html

  5. #105
    Supertall Skyscraper Member psukhu's Avatar
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    ^
    The social conservative propaganda machine seems to have an impact on the masses as evident by the previous article, but this video shows what happens when their misinformation is called out. Here is a video of Michael Goldfarb, the national spokesman for the McCain campaign, talking to CNN.

    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCaOCWYpPk4

  6. #106
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    http://www.drudgereport.com/flashopp.htm

    DMN reporters kicked off of Obama's campaign plane, along with reporters from two other papers that endorsed McCain. I'm not one to buy into conspiracy theories like this, especially from Drudge, just thought it was interesting.

  7. #107
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    Tribalism is an unfortunate instinct. The United States, for most of its history, represented a unique riposte to tribalism, involving as it did the notion that people from various places could come together and form a union based upon common principles instead of bloodlines. Nowadays, with so much "hyphenated-Americanism" around, backsliding toward tribalism may be observed and there's a good chance that the kind of strife we see in the Middle East, where tribalism reigns supreme, will become more commonplace in the U.S. as well. Welcome to the world of crypto-fascism.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  8. #108
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretist
    Tribalism is an unfortunate instinct. The United States, for most of its history, represented a unique riposte to tribalism, involving as it did the notion that people from various places could come together and form a union based upon common principles instead of bloodlines. Nowadays, with so much "hyphenated-Americanism" around, backsliding toward tribalism may be observed and there's a good chance that the kind of strife we see in the Middle East, where tribalism reigns supreme, will become more commonplace in the U.S. as well. Welcome to the world of crypto-fascism.
    Really?

    Crypto-fascism? I thought it was socialism?

    The U.S represented a unique riposte to tribalism? Two words: Civil War. Heck, the Canadians for all the "problems" they have with multiculturalism I don't think experienced anything as volatile or as violent as our Civil War.
    Last edited by AeroD; 31 October 2008 at 12:01 PM.
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  9. #109
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukhu
    23 percent of Texans think Obama a Muslim, poll shows

    Full article from the Star Telegram: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1008239.html
    And more people in England think Sherlock Holmes was a real person than a fictional one and visa versa for Winston Churchill. Every place has its idiots. You don't need a propaganda machine to be stupid. To quote the late Bob Carlin: Every other person you meet is dumber than the average person and we know how stupid he is.

  10. #110
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    And more people in England think Sherlock Holmes was a real person than a fictional one and visa versa for Winston Churchill. Every place has its idiots. You don't need a propaganda machine to be stupid. To quote the late Bob Carlin: Every other person you meet is dumber than the average person and we know how stupid he is.
    Actually, according to Wikipedia, Bob Carlin is still alive and pickin':
    Bob Carlin (b. March 17, 1953 in New York City) is an American old-time banjo player and singer.

    Carlin performs primarily in the clawhammer style of banjo. He has toured the United States, Canada, and Europe performing on various historical banjos (including gourd banjos), and has explored the African roots of the banjo by working with the Malian musician Cheick Hamala Diabate and the elder African American fiddler Joe Thompson. He is also one of the few musicians skilled in the performance of minstrel-style banjo songs of the mid-1800s.
    No word in the article on whether Bob Carlin ever did a performance of the Seven Dirty Chords, but since he's playing the banjo, it's almost certain.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

  11. #111
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    To paraphrase Sean Connery in the Rock after offering an Oscar Wilde quip: I proved my own point.

  12. #112
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QbEwKcs-7Hc

    Sarkozy calling...

    I nearly passed out at the line where "Sarkozy" told Palin how much he liked the new biographical film about her, "Nailin' Palin" and she, obviously either doesn't know about it or figured his accent was to blame, but basically thanked him for the compliment. What a rutabaga. The guy had a ridiculous comedic French accent, and tried time and again to give himself away with more and more ridiculous schtick. She was completely oblivious. For me, the oddest thing about Palin is her every answer is a cliche...
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  13. #113
    Supertall Skyscraper Member psukhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretist
    Not sure if this is real or not, but there is something else to consider. She just got her first passport last year, so I doubt she has ever been to France.

    I think if you are going for the Senate, Congress, White House or Supreme Court you should have some experience visiting the capitals of former empires that have shaped the world or at the very least shaped the US. (For example, get on a plane and visit Paris for a week at some point in your life before you are 45 years old)

    This has never been an issue since many Americans take foreign trips as part of serving in the military, taking vacations, business/work trips or simply visiting family. I think most people would agree that travelling really shapes your view of the world. I don't know how you can create foreign policy with Palin's foreign travel experience.

  14. #114
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukhu
    Not sure if this is real or not, but there is something else to consider. She just got her first passport last year, so I doubt she has ever been to France.

    I think if you are going for the Senate, Congress, White House or Supreme Court you should have some experience visiting the capitals of former empires that have shaped the world or at the very least shaped the US. (For example, get on a plane and visit Paris for a week at some point in your life before you are 45 years old)

    This has never been an issue since many Americans take foreign trips as part of serving in the military, taking vacations, business/work trips or simply visiting family. I think most people would agree that travelling really shapes your view of the world. I don't know how you can create foreign policy with Palin's foreign travel experience.
    If I am not mistaken, she has at least traveled to Canada and Mexico. These countries play a more considerable role in the day-to-day lives of Americans and affect U.S. policy more so than France.

    So Candidate X went to the Louvre. Is that foreign policy experience?

    "Oh, you did not ride the rails in Europe, how would you know how to negotiate with Putin?"

    Far be it for me to support McCain/Palin - I am in New Mexico volunteering for the other guy - but it is this kind of thinking that riles up that elitist vs populist argument.

    Negotiating skills and having top-notch advisers is far more important than a week in Europe.
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  15. #115
    Incoherent Rambler grantboston's Avatar
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    Please, God: let this election end. I think we've all had enough.

  16. #116
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantboston
    Please, God: let this election end. I think we've all had enough.
    Oh. It could be worse. We could have no elections.
    Tighten the female dog!

  17. #117
    Supertall Skyscraper Member psukhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeroD
    Far be it for me to support McCain/Palin - I am in New Mexico volunteering for the other guy - but it is this kind of thinking that riles up that elitist vs populist argument.
    Maybe that's the current split in the Republican party: the intellectuals versus the masses. Maybe that's why we've seen many rural people rally behind Palin while some prominent intellectual Republicans have given endorsements to Obama such as Susan Eisenhower.



    Here's a good article from The Economist that discusses this phenomenon: http://www.economist.com/world/unite...ry_id=12470555

  18. #118
    Supertall Skyscraper Member psukhu's Avatar
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    Interesting Reagan speech when put into 2008's context: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqfedYAAGEI

  19. #119
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    It's always impressive to see people cleaning up after themselves. This trait should be usefull after eight years of W.

    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  20. #120
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    And you know this for a fact after watching his dining habits at truck stops or was "cleaning up" some obtuse geopolitical reference?

  21. #121
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    Watch PA and NH. If McCain takes those two and holds on to the red states, he wins, even if Obama wins the popular vote by millions. I think the chance of him taking those two is much larger than the polls indicate, and I hope I am wrong. The Electoral College is a ticking time bomb. It just might go off this time around. Obama will be taking the states of CA, IL, and NY. Our three most populous cities are there, from which Obama will garner millions of votes. The Electoral College was designed to negate the power of big cities over rural states, in it’s day, the power of the big Northern cities (then NY, Boston and Philly) over the slave states. It is an anachronism and should be either proportionalized or just plain eliminated. I just do not see how we can call ourselves a “democracy” if the loser wins the election. Given how high emotions are on the left this election, if Obama wins the popular vote by millions and loses the election, there will be riots like we have never seen in this country. I've heard over a million people are expected to gather in Grant Park tonight. That and the electoral college farce could be a huge keg of dynamite.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  22. #122
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    And you know this for a fact after watching his dining habits at truck stops or was "cleaning up" some obtuse geopolitical reference?
    He saves that stuff for the weird voodoo rituals he does with William Ayers and Reverend Wright.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  23. #123
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukhu
    23 percent of Texans think Obama a Muslim, poll shows

    Full article from the Star Telegram: http://www.star-telegram.com/news/story/1008239.html

    Billl Maher gleefully pointed that out on the last edition of Real Time but the later in the show talked about Obama having 'a Muslim name'...

  24. #124
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psukhu
    Maybe that's the current split in the Republican party: the intellectuals versus the masses. Maybe that's why we've seen many rural people rally behind Palin while some prominent intellectual Republicans have given endorsements to Obama such as Susan Eisenhower.



    Here's a good article from The Economist that discusses this phenomenon: http://www.economist.com/world/unite...ry_id=12470555
    What we are all seeing is what the Libertarian Paul Craig Roberts brillantly wrote about (I posted it somewhere here) in stating that the GOP had become two political parties, the Fiscal Conservatives and the Social Anti-Constitutionalists. He predicted the crack would come after McCain lost, and it looks like it's coming right on schedule. Read this column by David Brooks, an old-style conservative (Ann Coulter hates him and calls him a "queer") who hates Palin and is slowly coming around to see clearly what Roberts saw two years ago:

    Op-Ed Columnist

    Ceding the Center
    By DAVID BROOKS
    Published: October 26, 2008


    There are two major political parties in America, but there are at least three major political tendencies. The first is orthodox liberalism, a belief in using government to maximize equality. The second is free-market conservatism, the belief in limiting government to maximize freedom.

    But there is a third tendency, which floats between. It is for using limited but energetic government to enhance social mobility. This tendency began with Alexander Hamilton, who created a vibrant national economy so more people could rise and succeed. It matured with Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War Republicans, who created the Land Grant College Act and the Homestead Act to give people the tools to pursue their ambitions. It continued with Theodore Roosevelt, who busted the trusts to give more Americans a square deal.

    Members of this tradition have one foot in the conservatism of Edmund Burke. They understand how little we know or can know and how much we should rely on tradition, prudence and habit. They have an awareness of sin, of the importance of traditional virtues and stable institutions. They understand that we are not free-floating individuals but are embedded in thick social organisms.

    But members of this tradition also have a foot in the landscape of America, and share its optimism and its Lincolnian faith in personal transformation. Hamilton didn’t seek wealth for its own sake, but as a way to enhance the country’s greatness and serve the unique cause America represents in the world.

    Members of this tradition are Americanized Burkeans, or to put it another way, progressive conservatives.

    This tendency thrived in American life for a century and a half, but it went into hibernation during the 20th century because it sat crossways to that era’s great debate — the one between socialism and its enemies. But many of us hoped this Hamilton-to-Bull Moose tradition would be reborn in John McCain’s campaign.

    McCain shares the progressive conservative instinct. He has shown his sympathy with the striving immigrant and his disgust with the colluding corporatist. He has an untiring reform impulse and a devotion to national service and American exceptionalism.

    His campaign seemed the perfect vehicle to explain how this old approach applied to a new century with new problems — a century with widening inequality, declining human capital, a fraying social contract, rising entitlement debt, corporate authoritarian regimes abroad and soft corporatist collusion at home.

    In modernizing this old tradition, some of us hoped McCain would take sides in the debate now dividing the G.O.P. Some Republicans believe the G.O.P. went astray by abandoning its tax-cutting, anti-government principles. They want a return to Reagan (or at least the Reagan of their imaginations). But others want to modernize and widen the party and adapt it to new challenges. Some of us hoped that by reforming his party, which has grown so unpopular, McCain could prove that he could reform the country.

    But McCain never took sides in this debate and never articulated a governing philosophy, Hamiltonian or any other. In Sunday’s issue of The Times Magazine, Robert Draper describes the shifts in tactics that consumed the McCain campaign. The tactics varied promiscuously, but they were all about how to present McCain, not about how to describe the state of country or the needs of the voter. It was all biography, which was necessary, but it did not clearly point to a new direction for the party or the country.

    The Hamiltonian-Bull Moose tendency is the great, moderate strain in American politics. In some sense this whole campaign was a contest to see which party could reach out from its base and occupy that centrist ground. The Democratic Party did that. Senior Democrats like Robert Rubin, Larry Summers and Jason Furman actually created something called The Hamilton Project to lay out a Hamiltonian approach for our day.

    McCain and Republicans stayed within their lines. There was a lot of talk about earmarks. There was a good health care plan that was never fully explained. And there was Sarah Palin, who represents the old resentments and the narrow appeal of conventional Republicanism.

    As a result, Democrats now control the middle. Self-declared moderates now favor Obama by 59 to 30, according to the New York Times/CBS News poll. Suburban voters favor Obama 50 to 39. Voters over all give him a 21 point lead when it comes to better handling the economy and a 14 point lead on tax policy, according to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll.

    McCain would be an outstanding president. In government, he has almost always had an instinct for the right cause. He has become an experienced legislative craftsman. He is stalwart against the country’s foes and cooperative with its friends. But he never escaped the straitjacket of a party that is ailing and a conservatism that is behind the times. And that’s what makes the final weeks of this campaign so unspeakably sad.

    ************************************************** ******

    And a link here to Robert's brilliant thesis:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts247.html

    And for those interested, a catalog of his writings on the Libertarian website, LewRockwell. com:

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/roberts/roberts-arch.html
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  25. #125
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretist
    Watch PA and NH. If McCain takes those two and holds on to the red states, he wins, even if Obama wins the popular vote by millions. I think the chance of him taking those two is much larger than the polls indicate, and I hope I am wrong. The Electoral College is a ticking time bomb. It just might go off this time around. Obama will be taking the states of CA, IL, and NY. Our three most populous cities are there, from which Obama will garner millions of votes. The Electoral College was designed to negate the power of big cities over rural states, in it’s day, the power of the big Northern cities (then NY, Boston and Philly) over the slave states. It is an anachronism and should be either proportionalized or just plain eliminated. I just do not see how we can call ourselves a “democracy” if the loser wins the election. Given how high emotions are on the left this election, if Obama wins the popular vote by millions and loses the election, there will be riots like we have never seen in this country. I've heard over a million people are expected to gather in Grant Park tonight. That and the electoral college farce could be a huge keg of dynamite.
    The President is not elected by popular vote. He (or she, eventually) is elected by the states. And that's how it was designed. It's not perfect, but it's another check-and-balance on the system. It prevents the "tyranny of the majority" somewhat, by requiring compromises between the highly populated urban states and the wide-open "flyover" states.

    A president who is elected by a majority in the Electoral College, without a corresponding mandate from the public at large, is not automatically the wrong choice. Ideally, he will see his limited mandate and use the challenge it presents as an opportunity for statesmanlike leadership. That didn't happen last time, but democracy doesn't claim to be perfect -- just better than the alternatives.

    My Green Party friends get all sideways on this issue, but they've got something to gain, too. Because the electoral college system can actually *benefit* third-party candidates. Why don't the Libertarians go after one of the long-ignored Western states, like Montana or Idaho, or even Alaska, and take its handful of electoral votes? Why don't the Greens build on their victories in New England or the Pacific Northwest and claim a state for their own?

    That's where it can start -- the two party system is teetering, with the Republicans about to split apart over the very fault lines they used so well against their opponents. Those who are tired of the two-party duopoly, or partisan politics in general, shouldn't be fighting the electoral college. They should embrace it for the purpose the Founding Fathers intended: as a way for all viewpoints to be represented in choosing the leader of the country.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

  26. #126
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Bring back the Whigs!
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  27. #127
    Supertall Skyscraper Member psukhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    And you know this for a fact after watching his dining habits at truck stops or was "cleaning up" some obtuse geopolitical reference?
    World hopes for a 'less arrogant America'

    By MATT MOORE, Associated Press Writer Matt Moore, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 2 mins ago

    BERLIN – Around the world, throngs packed plazas and pubs to await U.S. elections results Tuesday, many inspired by Barack Obama's promise of change amid a sense of relief that — no matter who wins — the White House is changing hands.

    As millions of American voters decided between Obama or John McCain, the world was abuzz, ready to bear witness to a moment of history that would reverberate well beyond American borders.

    More at link: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_campaignp...s_world_view_8

  28. #128
    Skyscraper Member frankchitown's Avatar
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    Did anyone else vote early at the Records Building downtown? I was standing in line looking at the "Whites Only" drinking fountain, beaming with pride at how far our country has come.

  29. #129
    High-Rise Member eirin's Avatar
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    Hooray!
    Socialism - bringing a greater good to a greater many, one golden parachute at a time.

  30. #130
    Just Changing Planes aygriffith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajackmeh16
    Hooray!
    What, that the Dems didn't get 60? Thank God in heaven for that...

    I can only hope for a 1994-esque revolution in 2010 and I'm not to sure that won't be easily attainable. Of course the media was already prepairing the US for Barak mediocrity all through the week with their "Theres a lot more problems than any mortal man can deal with in the next 4 years and we should just be happy Obama will be a change." In other words, he can't fix you problems or pay your bills and when you realize that we (the media) still need to convince you to support him even though he hasn't done a damn thing he said he could.

  31. #131
    Administrator gc's Avatar
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    Chicago skyline sure looks nice on tv.....doesn't it?
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  32. #132
    High-Rise Member Rob's Avatar
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    What a phenomenal day.

  33. #133
    High-Rise Member eirin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aygriffith
    What, that the Dems didn't get 60? Thank God in heaven for that...

    I can only hope for a 1994-esque revolution in 2010 and I'm not to sure that won't be easily attainable. Of course the media was already prepairing the US for Barak mediocrity all through the week with their "Theres a lot more problems than any mortal man can deal with in the next 4 years and we should just be happy Obama will be a change." In other words, he can't fix you problems or pay your bills and when you realize that we (the media) still need to convince you to support him even though he hasn't done a damn thing he said he could.
    Stop whining. At least the Democrats will have 57 senate seats--bare minimum. Hopefully they carry Oregon and Alaska too. I don't see how a convicted felon can win an election, but hey, we are talking about republicans here. And there is a should-be felon in the White House right now.
    Socialism - bringing a greater good to a greater many, one golden parachute at a time.

  34. #134
    Member concretist's Avatar
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    American Civil War, May 1861- Nov 4 2008

    It finally came to an end at 9:58 CST when the State of Virginia, with 92% reporting, was called for Obama by CNN. We have finally called forth the better angels of our nature.

    This historical election proved that there is hope that one day we shall overcome and we are right up the mountain top. Democrats, Republicans, independents and even foreigners this is history in the making and we must all unite to keep the momentum going for a strong America. The United States of America is the greatest country in the world because it belongs to everyone, it represents what's good in all of us to strive and achieve our potentials. It's an inspiration for people who live in war torn places and places where poverty and oppression are rampant. It's an inspiration for Americans to unite to help themselves so they can help others. If there was one calling to describe us Americans is that we are the trend setters for this planet. We must take that responsibility seriously, do good and help everyone prosper in peace.
    Let's all rise to the occasion!
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  35. #135
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretist
    American Civil War, May 1861- Nov 4 2008

    It finally came to an end at 9:58 CST when the State of Virginia, with 92% reporting, was called for Obama by CNN. We have finally called forth the better angels of our nature.
    I'm not sure Indian Territory would agree -- Oklahoma went 66% for McCain. Arkansas and Louisiana, not much better at 59%. Alabama's 60% isn't surprising either, but Mississippi is -- they only went 56%.

    I was sure there would be a secession movement for the sovereign nation of AlMiArkLaHoma, but Mississippi was just too darned liberal.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by aygriffith
    What, that the Dems didn't get 60? Thank God in heaven for that...

    I can only hope for a 1994-esque revolution in 2010 and I'm not to sure that won't be easily attainable. Of course the media was already prepairing the US for Barak mediocrity all through the week with their "Theres a lot more problems than any mortal man can deal with in the next 4 years and we should just be happy Obama will be a change." In other words, he can't fix you problems or pay your bills and when you realize that we (the media) still need to convince you to support him even though he hasn't done a damn thing he said he could.
    Nothing like the intolerant nature of Texas Right conservatives. While not so much in Texas, the nation's independent voters such as myself tire of the hate, fear mongering and superior attitude of the right. If the Republican party would get back to their basic platform of less government, lower spending and lower taxes then they'd get somewhere with me. As it is, I dislike being told how to think, what to think and when to think it by the religious right (goes against less government, but lets not let that get in the way of garnering votes) while at the same time fighting through the arrogant, racist and intolerant attitudes of the party's loyalists, as was seen here in this thread from time to time.

    And I love the liberal media comment. As a former media person myself, we all used to marvel at that one. Somehow criticism of a government means you are in the other party's camp. If it doesn't fit your point of view, then it must be because they have an agenda, nothing else, right?

  37. #137
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Wait, what, superior attitude? Why no, we liberals are the elitists, don't you watch Fox News?
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    I find it odd that cnn does not have the market on their front page. They would rather show pictures of people celebrating than show the results the market dropping 250 points thus far.

  39. #139
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    I find it odd that cnn does not have the market on their front page. They would rather show pictures of people celebrating than show the results the market dropping 250 points thus far.
    In other news, dog bites man. The market dropping isn't news any more. Besides, if anything, it's a natural market reaction to yesterday's bizarre 300-point rise. The market's gains over the past week didn't seem to be based on anything concrete, perhaps a product of low volume, and a return to reality is part of what passes for normal.

    There's still a lot of adjustment left to do. Americans' negative savings rate was a pyramid scheme, built on easy credit, that couldn't do anything but collapse. What prosperity we had over the past decade looks more and more like a fluke, or even a sham, brought on by (Clinton-era!) deregulation. The changes brought about by the credit collapse will be as radical as those brought about by the Great Depression -- and if they're not, then Obama will be our generation's Herbert Hoover.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

  40. #140
    High-Rise Member Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    I find it odd that cnn does not have the market on their front page. They would rather show pictures of people celebrating than show the results the market dropping 250 points thus far.
    You find it odd that they're reporting the news on a monumentally historic event from a mere 18 hours ago instead of letting us know about the DOW's llatest point drop; one in a series of losses and gains tracking back over the last month?

    You really think those two stories are even close to equal in terms of news worthiness?

    And before anyone goes asserting that it's a negative reaction to Obama's victory...

    Part of the selling was profit-taking after Tuesday's rally. But investors were bothered by reports of more job cuts and of production cuts at the world's largest steelmaker.

    At the same time, a report showed the nation's service sector was also contracting in the face of continued financial stress.

  41. #141
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    Polling accuracy

    That the final margin was only 1.1% down from the final Real Clear Politics number [7.3%] and 1.55 down from the aggregate of all 22 daily polls [7.75%]. Lends pretty good credence to the polling system.

    For future reference, Rasmussen, Marist, Ipsos/McClatchy held the best trending pattern. Zogby did the last 10 days after he completely reconfigured how he did National polling after being embarrassed mercilessly by Nate at 538 regarding his methodology.

    Looks like the "Bradley Effect" is now buried. It might be replaced by the "Palin Effect", if the exit polling is any indication.

    I expected it to be closer. I had calculated about the right number of Democrats voting but would never have believed that 6 Million Republicans would have stayed home. Yikes.


    Barack Obama: 63,545,310 53.1%
    John McCain: 56,171,396 46.9%

    Total votes: 119,716,706 Margin of victory: 6.2%
    Last edited by concretist; 05 November 2008 at 09:44 PM.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
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  42. #142
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    The Republicans may be damned sorry they introduced legislation to end the filibuster. This country needs to get some things done, and a clear majority have demanded it. The filibuster is the Senate's money train, anytime a bill shows up some corporation doesn't like, all's #59 Senator has to do is deliver his ass to them for a big fat legal campaign contribution. It is a cornerstone of the system of legalized bribery that has evolved in this country, and I think it's time for it to go. It also seems to me it violates the Constitution's requirement that the government must guarantee it's citizens a "republican form of government" - that's in the Constitution, and the filibuster ain't. It sure doesn't seem that's what we are getting when one senator can block the desires of 40 million people.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
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  43. #143
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretist
    The Republicans may be damned sorry they introduced legislation to end the filibuster. This country needs to get some things done, and a clear majority have demanded it. The filibuster is the Senate's money train, anytime a bill shows up some corporation doesn't like, all's #59 Senator has to do is deliver his ass to them for a big fat legal campaign contribution. It is a cornerstone of the system of legalized bribery that has evolved in this country, and I think it's time for it to go. It also seems to me it violates the Constitution's requirement that the government must guarantee it's citizens a "republican form of government" - that's in the Constitution, and the filibuster ain't. It sure doesn't seem that's what we are getting when one senator can block the desires of 40 million people.
    In the novel The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Robert Heinlein's rather Libertarian protagonist suggests that any law which is opposed by a third of the legislature shouldn't be passed in any case. The filibuster works in the same way as the every-other-year Texas Legislature: it assumes that the fewer laws are passed, the better.

    Being a liberal doesn't mean you think the government does everything right.

    Or perhaps the folks at despair.com sum it up best:
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

  44. #144
    Skyscraper Member Spjz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by concretist
    The Republicans may be damned sorry they introduced legislation to end the filibuster. This country needs to get some things done, and a clear majority have demanded it. The filibuster is the Senate's money train, anytime a bill shows up some corporation doesn't like, all's #59 Senator has to do is deliver his ass to them for a big fat legal campaign contribution. It is a cornerstone of the system of legalized bribery that has evolved in this country, and I think it's time for it to go. It also seems to me it violates the Constitution's requirement that the government must guarantee it's citizens a "republican form of government" - that's in the Constitution, and the filibuster ain't. It sure doesn't seem that's what we are getting when one senator can block the desires of 40 million people.
    I voted for Barack and I for one am thanking god almighty that the Dems didn't get a filibuster proof majority. We just gave the keyes to one party and the solution has become to take them away when we disapprove and hand them to another? Concretist, you put too much faith in fallible human beings. Try and remember how you felt when George Bush gave his 2004 acceptance speech using expressions like "conservative mandate" and "political capital." The humble and gracious promises that Obama made last night will be meaningless if the Democrats marginalize the 47 percent of the country who did not vote like you or I.

    Let them have their filibuster.

  45. #145
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    The process, the legislative process, is designed to kill bills, not protect them. That is a good thing.

    People complain about "inefficient" legislatures, but do we want "efficiency" in legislatures? Probably not. An efficient legislature is an ineffective, or potentially dangerous, legislature.

    Viva la Filibuster!
    Tighten the female dog!

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spjz
    I voted for Barack and I for one am thanking god almighty that the Dems didn't get a filibuster proof majority. We just gave the keyes to one party and the solution has become to take them away when we disapprove and hand them to another? Concretist, you put too much faith in fallible human beings. Try and remember how you felt when George Bush gave his 2004 acceptance speech using expressions like "conservative mandate" and "political capital." The humble and gracious promises that Obama made last night will be meaningless if the Democrats marginalize the 47 percent of the country who did not vote like you or I.

    Let them have their filibuster.
    Valid concerns, simple solution - don't give him a willing congress. Don't give him the 60 democratic senate seats that insulate them from filibuster. Vote in conservative congresspeople who oppose his spending proposals and watch nothing get done.
    I think Americans need to get comfortable operating in an enviroment where there is no white horse. I lived in Spain under Franco's rule and don't fear living under the Democrats without a filibuster. The Republic will survive. Doing nothing under present circumstances isn't an option...
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  47. #147
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    Interesting take on America by a Brit

    From The Guardian London, and www.monbiot.com. I am biased against religion and right wing politics, and I am the liberal elite personified, so it may be more interesting to me than you.

    George Monbiot monbiot.com

    THE GUARDIAN Tuesday October 28 2008


    How was it allowed to happen? How did politics in the US come to be dominated
    by people who make a virtue out of ignorance? Was it charity that has
    permitted mankind's closest living relative to spend two terms as president? How did
    Sarah Palin, Dan Quayle and other such gibbering numbskulls get to where they
    are? How could Republican rallies in 2008 be drowned out by screaming
    ignoramuses insisting that Barack Obama was a Muslim and a terrorist?

    http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2008...-of-ignorance/
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

  48. #148
    Supertall Skyscraper Member psukhu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertB
    I'm not sure Indian Territory would agree -- Oklahoma went 66% for McCain. Arkansas and Louisiana, not much better at 59%. Alabama's 60% isn't surprising either, but Mississippi is -- they only went 56%.

    I was sure there would be a secession movement for the sovereign nation of AlMiArkLaHoma, but Mississippi was just too darned liberal.
    You may be on to something there. This area appears to have voted more Republican that the 2004 election.

    Check out this map. It looks like the DFW are voted more Democratic this time around.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ION_RECAP.html

  49. #149
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    We still have a race in North Texas that could very well determine who the next speaker is in the Texas House.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...182a341ca.html
    Tighten the female dog!

  50. #150
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    My thesis is that we have a relief rally off of the weds and thurs decline. In addition we have a low data week and lots of good press around the president elect and his potential economic advisors, to quote Alan Gayle of Ridgeworth "last week was about how bad things are, this week is about what we're going to do about it". Add the potential for the dems to talk of motor city bailouts buoying that sector and negating the drag it is on the market. Then there is the Russian statement that they will not go along with any OPEC production cuts which should act as a down force to oil price. Lastly for now, the $586 Billion China stimulus package should be a lift for the Asian markets leading into monday trading here.

    The USD also shows signs of continued strengthening against the european currencies, which could act in either direction for the market depending on how the market views the relationship between manufacturing costs of overseas feedstocks, and export reductions due to increased cost to overseas customers. I have this in my neutral column because I haven't decided which is more likely, and even if the USD is in fact showing upside.


    Opposing force could be the Russia/Argentina war games and Nuke talk, the Berkshire report, the strength of the Bond market, and any worse than expected earnings reports that arise.
    Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell them something new and they will hate you for it.
    -- George Monbiot

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