Uptown: JLB - Carlisle @ Katy Trail (fmr St. Regis)

[dzh]

well if it means anything to anyone, Dallas is now finally listed in the future developments page of the St. Regis website

[Mark Lea]

http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas...3/story13.html

Credit crunch delays St. Regis project construction
Dallas Business Journal - by Bill Hethcock Staff writer

Construction on a St. Regis Hotel & Residences at a Turtle Creek site in Dallas has been delayed because of the credit crunch and the recession, but plans for the $200 million project have not been scratched altogether.

The Dallas Plan Commission on July 23 extended the development schedule on the proposed 22-story luxury hotel/condo tower, meaning its developers must pull a building permit and break ground on it within three years, instead of by the end of this year, as originally required. The project is planned along the Katy Trail, northeast of Cedar Springs Road and Carlisle Street.

City Councilwoman Angela Hunt, who represents the district where the proposed project lies, said the development has been delayed because of difficulty obtaining financing and the softening of the hospitality industry due to the recession. Hunt said she continues to support the project.

“I think it will be a great project that will be beneficial to our tax base and beneficial to the community, while also maintaining quality standards in relation to the Katy Trail and the residents nearby,” she said.

The developer, Los Angeles-based Foch Investments/Development, and the operator, Starwood Hotels & Resorts, could not be reached for comment. St. Regis is one of Starwood’s luxury brands.

Foch Investment’s plans, announced more than a year ago by the Dallas Business Journal, called for 150 hotel rooms and 70 to 80 condominiums. Foch initially hoped to open in time for the Super Bowl in 2011.

That goal is no longer realistic, said land-use attorney Susan Mead, who represents the owners. Mead is a partner in the Dallas office of Jackson Walker LLP.

“The project is still a go,” Mead said. “We’re just waiting for the market to firm up a little bit. We needed some flexibility on the time.”

The lead architect on the project, Andrew Bennett of BOKA Powell LLC, said he remains optimistic the St. Regis Hotel & Residences will be built.

“We’re having ongoing conversations with the ownership side, and we’re just seeing what we can do to be helpful,” Bennett said. “It’s going to take a recovery on the national side to bring back a project like that.”

[UrbanHope]

This development had a special provision that required that construction start on a certain date, so they applied for the extension and received approval.

[incrediculous]

Starwood sure does like Dallas. Good to see they're still trying to get this built.

[NThomas]

Great news! I can't remember seeing anything about a direct link or at least an improved trail head at Cedar Springs. Was/is there any plan to connect the development to the Katy Trail? Seems like it would be a HUGE amenity vs. DTD hotels.

[aygriffith]

Starwood sure does like Dallas. Good to see they're still trying to get this built.

The St Regis hotels I've stayed in Atlanta, Monarch Beach and Singapore are nicer hotels than any product we have in Dallas. The Houston St Regis didn't quite seem up to par with what I would expect from the brand.

Starwood's properties from Sheraton to St Regis and all the brands inbetween are generally far better in service and amenities than Hilton, IHG and Marriott.

[Kelley USA]

I know it's been 7 months since this thread was last brought up... But I was goofing around on BOKA and came back across this. I was looking on this thread at the initial renderings and noticed that the current renderings on BOKA are oh so slightly different. You can see subtle changes in the design. It may have been done a year ago or perhaps a few months ago- who knows...

http://www.bokapowell.com/#/hospitality/3/

[vman]

http://www.bokapowell.com/#/hospitality/3/

Cool. Wish they had forwarded that design over to the CC Hotel committee.

[NThomas]

I know it's been 7 months since this thread was last brought up... But I was goofing around on BOKA and came back across this. I was looking on this thread at the initial renderings and noticed that the current renderings on BOKA are oh so slightly different. You can see subtle changes in the design. It may have been done a year ago or perhaps a few months ago- who knows...

http://www.bokapowell.com/#/hospitality/3/

Ahhhhhh. I just discovered from those new renderings that it would have faced Carlisle St and not Cedar Springs. I really hope this one gets built now. It'll look amazing!

[tamtagon]

There's just too much glass on that building for me. All the best hotels in Dallas know not to use too much glass.

[lakewoodhobo]

"Located adjacent to the Historic Katy Trail, the project will incorporate a luxurious spa and a signature restaurant."

This description is funny to me. There is nothing historic about the Katy Trail.

[downtownguy25]

"Located adjacent to the Historic Katy Trail, the project will incorporate a luxurious spa and a signature restaurant."

This description is funny to me. There is nothing historic about the Katy Trail.

it is the former Missouri-Kansas-Texas railroad line

http://www.katytraildallas.org/site/...me=fkt_history

[lakewoodhobo]

it is the former Missouri-Kansas-Texas railroad line

I understand that, but what's "historic" or significant about it? It's not like John Neely Bryan founded it or Lee Harvey Oswald used it after assassinating JFK. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

[NThomas]

I understand that, but what's "historic" or significant about it? It's not like John Neely Bryan founded it or Lee Harvey Oswald used it after assassinating JFK. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

In Dallas, anything 10 years or older is considered historic.

[downtownguy25]

I understand that, but what's "historic" or significant about it? It's not like John Neely Bryan founded it or Lee Harvey Oswald used it after assassinating JFK. Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Oddly enough, the john neely bryan cabin is a fake historic cabin.

[Eastwolf]

I'm curious. Any update on this project? Is it dead? On hold?

[MDE]

An Irish lender has posted several high-profile Dallas commercial properties for foreclosure.

...CommonFund is also an investor in the almost 2.5-acre vacant tract at Cedar Springs Road and the Katy Trail in Uptown. The property was previously planned for a St. Regis Hotel, but that deal fell through.

Now Anglo Irish Bank, which loaned $16 million on the hotel site, has scheduled the land for foreclosure on April 5.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/c...oreclosure.ece

[tamtagon]

Isn't it about time this site gets back in play? Turtle Creek is likely to be slice of Dallas getting the big money deals in the next couple years.

This former St. Regis proposal is just across the Katy Trail from the land Hillwood just bought from the Hyatt Senior Living folks, and both are across just across Cedar Springs 2727 Turtle Creek (aka Block 1021 Republic Insurance bldg) which was announced in December 2010 to be "in its very early stages ... to be finished in mid-2013."

I hope whatever comes to these properties are not big shiny glass boxes with funky angles and sophisticated lighting. I want stone buildings with discrete balconies, pure class and no pretense.

[ChampionDallas]

Last I heard was that nearby residences did not want it near the Katy Trail. Any news on the St. Regis?

[slfunk]

They were able to come to a compromise with Angela Hunt leading the discussions between Friends of Katy Trail and the developer. After the deal was made the developer has not moved forward since. The project is stalled or cancelled.

[lakewoodhobo]

JLB has purchased the site, but hasn't announced development plans.

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/c...-developer.ece

A vacant Turtle Creek tract once planned for a high-rise hotel and condos is being sold to a local apartment developer.
The former St. Regis Hotel property at Cedar Springs Road and Carlisle Street is one of the last vacant tracts in that area and fronts on the popular Katy Trail.

JLB Partners – a busy North Texas apartment developer – has contracted to purchase the 2.3-acre site. "We are purchasing the site as an investment as we believe in the quality of the neighborhood and the long term potential of the site," said JLB Partners' Scott Sherwood. "Currently, we are looking at all options for this well positioned property."

[1999McKinneyAve]

Yea!! More apartments!! Exciting....

[Kelley USA]

Whatever they do, they'd be crazy not to include a few restaurant spaces along the Katy Trail... Would be nice to keep the trend going a la Katy Trail IceHouse and Company Cafe..

[CDallas]

I hope they still include a high rise component at this site. It is a prime spot in this entire area.

[jbarn]

Whatever they do, they need to do it quickly. Was on the Katy Trail last night, and this lot has become basically a dirt field parking lot for the Katy Trail. Really ugly, and out of place in that area. I know it is nice to wish for great developments, but we should be lucky that we are starting to see some stuff finally being built on all these huge empty lots that Dallas is full of. These empty lots create these great voids and mess up the feel of density that we are striving for.

[rantanamo]

Yea!! More apartments!! Exciting....

what would you like there?

[R1070]

The views from this lot would be awesome. They would be crazy to not build some type of highrise. Also I agree very much that restaurant space along the katy trail would be a great addition. This is one of the best lots in Dallas.

[profbarium]

what would you like there?

I think 1999McKinney might've been serious. (Only it didn't come across that way in plain text.) At least I hope he was, because I'm all for more apartments, esp. in this part of town. Considering the vacancy rates for apartments vs. office buildings, it seems pretty clear which the market needs more of.

[R1070]

There is actually a demand for Class A office space and luxury apartments in Uptown. I think we will start to see more of both popping up soon.
Central Dallas could actually use more hotel rooms as well to attract larger conventions to the city.

[profbarium]

There is actually a demand for Class A office space and luxury apartments in Uptown. I think we will start to see more of both popping up soon.
Central Dallas could actually use more hotel rooms as well to attract larger conventions to the city.

I have no problems with more hotels and office space (too). But I'd hate to even more towers lie fallow, as businesses repeatedly "trade up" to the latest and greatest. (And to be clear, I don't have any problem with businesses upgrading their facilities; I just hope someone redevelops, repurposes, or somehow reuses the space they leave behind.)

[aygriffith]

And when the market for condos actually exists in Dallas what do you think will happen to those apartments?

Just cause you build condos doesn't mean they won't be sold for pennies on the dollar at auction.

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[rantanamo]

I took the .... as sarcasm. Was just wondering what would go well in that spot. A hotel would have a great view, with a nice space towards the trail/creek, but would that really work now? Condos don't seem to do so hot in Dallas. They aren't going to build lower priced condos there, though I would like that.

[profbarium]

And when the market for condos actually exists in Dallas what do you think will happen to those apartments?

Just cause you build condos doesn't mean they won't be sold for pennies on the dollar at auction.

I'm sorry, I'm confused. You seem to be making two, different points. You seem to be saying both that condos will render apartments obsolete and empty, and that building condos now would be a bad idea. Or am I missing something? Thanks for clarifying!

[aygriffith]

I'm sorry, I'm confused. You seem to be making two, different points. You seem to be saying both that condos will render apartments obsolete and empty, and that building condos now would be a bad idea. Or am I missing something? Thanks for clarifying!

Sorry, I left out the original post I was replying to...

All of these apartments can and will be turned into condos if the market was right. This happens in markets all over the country who demonstrate strong condo sales. While we're waiting on Dallas to be one of those markets, let's get quality apartment buildings built to fill in the empty lots. The Renaissance on Turtle Creek was apartments at one point if I remember right and was turned into condos shortly after after the need was demonstrated.

People who complain about apartment construction will wait decades for all of these lots to fill up with purpose built mid/high rise condo buildings.

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[profbarium]

Sorry, I left out the original post I was replying to...

All of these apartments can and will be turned into condos if the market was right. This happens in markets all over the country who demonstrate strong condo sales. While we're waiting on Dallas to be one of those markets, let's get quality apartment buildings built to fill in the empty lots. The Renaissance on Turtle Creek was apartments at one point if I remember right and was turned into condos shortly after after the need was demonstrated.

People who complain about apartment construction will wait decades for all of these lots to fill up with purpose built mid/high rise condo buildings.

No worries. Thanks for clarifying. And we agree. Win-win-win!

[lakewoodhobo]

I agree with the above as well. And to be honest, I'm not all that upset that St. Regis abandoned their plans for this site. If only one of the canceled luxury hotels gets back on track in the next 5 years, I'd rather it be the Mandarin Oriental at Victory Park.

[UptownDallas]

Sorry, I left out the original post I was replying to...

All of these apartments can and will be turned into condos if the market was right. This happens in markets all over the country who demonstrate strong condo sales. While we're waiting on Dallas to be one of those markets, let's get quality apartment buildings built to fill in the empty lots. The Renaissance on Turtle Creek was apartments at one point if I remember right and was turned into condos shortly after after the need was demonstrated.

People who complain about apartment construction will wait decades for all of these lots to fill up with purpose built mid/high rise condo buildings.

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It depends on how the units are constructed. Condominium units tend to differ from rental units in two important respects:

1) Condos (on average) tend to be larger, because the owners tend to stay in them longer and want more room to grow into. Also condos tend to be purchased by larger households (many more 2-person+ groups vs. singles in rentals); also

2) Condos tend to be of higher quality, again because people are going to be in them longer. Some of the stuff is fixable (i.e. condo conversions frequently involve ripping out "apartment grade" cabinetry, trim, plumbing fixtures and appliances and putting in higher quality stuff. Some stuff (like poor acoustics and smallish bedrooms) is pretty hard to fix.

On the flipside, look at the Stoneleigh. It it hard to imagine that deal starting off as a rental building first--- the units envisioned are of such high quality, large size, etc., that they would be hard to market economically as rentals.

[aygriffith]

It depends on how the units are constructed. Condominium units tend to differ from rental units in two important respects:

1) Condos (on average) tend to be larger, because the owners tend to stay in them longer and want more room to grow into. Also condos tend to be purchased by larger households (many more 2-person+ groups vs. singles in rentals); also

2) Condos tend to be of higher quality, again because people are going to be in them longer. Some of the stuff is fixable (i.e. condo conversions frequently involve ripping out "apartment grade" cabinetry, trim, plumbing fixtures and appliances and putting in higher quality stuff. Some stuff (like poor acoustics and smallish bedrooms) is pretty hard to fix.

On the flipside, look at the Stoneleigh. It it hard to imagine that deal starting off as a rental building first--- the units envisioned are of such high quality, large size, etc., that they would be hard to market economically as rentals.

Most of the uptown apartments being build are of above average quality and size. There are condo conversions done successfully on much lower quality properties in other cities. We've already seen buildings in uptown that were built as condos open as apartments. I would argue most of the new Gables properties that are high rise downtown and in uptown were built with condos in mind if the market was right.

Its not a stretch to think most of the apartments in uptown could be condos in 15+ years.

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[DallasMichael]

Most of the uptown apartments being build are of above average quality and size. There are condo conversions done successfully on much lower quality properties in other cities. We've already seen buildings in uptown that were built as condos open as apartments. I would argue most of the new Gables properties that are high rise downtown and in uptown were built with condos in mind if the market was right.

Its not a stretch to think most of the apartments in uptown could be condos in 15+ years.

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No joking, my family recently visited me and were impressed by all the "condos" in Uptown around around within 3 blocks of the West Village and I kept correcting them by saying "those are apartments, yeah those are also apartments and those are also apartments"

Of course I hadn't been in any of those places so guessing by the exterior is not the best thing to do, but yeah the Gables properties look very nice from the exterior and I can see why people would consider settling their.

[UptownDallas]

Most of the uptown apartments being build are of above average quality and size. There are condo conversions done successfully on much lower quality properties in other cities. We've already seen buildings in uptown that were built as condos open as apartments. I would argue most of the new Gables properties that are high rise downtown and in uptown were built with condos in mind if the market was right.

Its not a stretch to think most of the apartments in uptown could be condos in 15+ years.

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I would tend to agree with you (unless that implies that I disagree with myself-- which could present a bit of a problem), particularly with respect to the high rise stuff that has been built in the lower part of Uptown (and the Cirque).

[tamtagon]

I agree with the above as well. And to be honest, I'm not all that upset that St. Regis abandoned their plans for this site. If only one of the canceled luxury hotels gets back on track in the next 5 years, I'd rather it be the Mandarin Oriental at Victory Park.

St. Regis might be a good brand for CityPlace, along with W. Considering recent and successful office building openings at VPark, it may be about time for another hotel.

Anyway... JPL wants to build a 299' apartment building where a St Regis proposal was once floated:

http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/20...ent-site.html/

by Steve Brown
12-27-12

... the property – which is adjacent to the Katy Trail – was previously planned for a St. Regis Hotel. That was before the economy went “poof” and the vacant corner wound up in foreclosure.

JLB Partners has filed plans with the City of Dallas that show a 299-foot tall residential building in the middle of the property. Low-rise construction at the base of the tower would take up most of the site.

Uptown is really turning coming into it's own... clearly the residential appeal of the neighborhood is quite potent.

[Tucy]

St. Regis might be a good brand for CityPlace, along with W. Considering recent and successful office building openings at VPark, it may be about time for another hotel.

Huh? What recent office building opening has occurred in Victory Park? Are you referring to One Victory Park, which opened 4 years ago?

[Kelley USA]

Good news! Residential in Uptown is hot! With the 2 towers already under construction, the new West Village Tower starting and the Whole Foods / Gables development still in the wings, I can only imagine how bad traffic will be in Uptown in the next 5 years...

[cowboyeagle05]

Huh? What recent office building opening has occurred in Victory Park? Are you referring to One Victory Park, which opened 4 years ago?

I think he means the recent filling up of all the empty office space in Victory Park. All the current space is occupied.

Although KDC hasn't started their office tower project they said they wanted to start October... They have instead signed on to build that mega project with office space for State Farm in Richardson at the George Bush DART station.

[lakewoodhobo]

It says a lot that JLB Partners, which specializes in 4-6 story residential, is going ahead with a 24-story tower in this part of town. Great news!

[tamtagon]

... I can only imagine how bad traffic will be in Uptown in the next 5 years...

DART ought to begin testing Oak Lawn-Uptown-Downtown bus circulars. It's, like, what, eight to ten thousand apartments units proposed or pending or under construction right now, so I think we might be at the point where the five-ten minute bus ride from around (e.g.) Main Street Garden to Lee Park will appeal to residents.

Huh? What recent office building opening has occurred in Victory Park? Are you referring to One Victory Park, which opened 4 years ago?

my bad, i meant office space that's filling up so that another office tower is in the works...

It says a lot that JLB Partners, which specializes in 4-6 story residential, is going ahead with a 24-story tower in this part of town. Great news!

It's Huge. Not just that JLB going for a highrise, but that the neighborhood has evolved such that a highrise makes as much or more sense than the low/midrise. We can expect this threshold to be meet and crossed in CBD residential developments as well. Thriving Uptown is the best thing to happen to the CBD.

[OrangeMike]

DART ought to begin testing Oak Lawn-Uptown-Downtown bus circulars. It's, like, what, eight to ten thousand apartments units proposed or pending or under construction right now, so I think we might be at the point where the five-ten minute bus ride from around (e.g.) Main Street Garden to Lee Park will appeal to residents.

The 39 bus route already circulates through downtown, up McKinney to Bowen, and up Cedar Springs, through the heart of Uptown and Oak Lawn's densest neighborhoods. But instead of adding service to gain ridership, DART has reduced it with its recent changes. Headways are 30 minutes during rush hour now, and even longer off-peak. It's become almost unusable if you want to get anywhere quickly or conveniently.

[lakewoodhobo]

In this recent story about Dallas real estate, John Crawford is quoted as saying "A year from now, rubber-wheeled trolleys will take people from the Dallas Convention Center to Victory with another branch that connects Main Street to the Arts District and Klyde Warren."

We'll have to see how these trolley buses work for downtown, but a route further into Uptown might be in its future.