Reply With QuoteAs a landowner in the panhandle I am all for this. It's all up to the individual landowners rights whether or not they want to sell and/or have pipelines criss-cross thier property.
Since when does it make sense to transfer water to a relatively wet part of the state from the dry part of the state? Should we pump the ogallal aquifer dry to pump up the assets of Mr. Pickens? This is wronger than catsh_t on toast. This is a subtle story that most of the people on this forum will ignore or casually glance through. In ten or twenty years, they'll be wondering how all this came about and why nobody told them about it. This needs the Barney Fife treatment: Nip it. In the bud.
Pickens seeks Kaufman's help to harness Panhandle's water, power
Plan would create entity that could plant lines stretching from Panhandle to D-FW
11:44 PM CDT on Friday, August 31, 2007
By JIM GETZ / The Dallas Morning News
jgetz@dallasnews.com
T. Boone Pickens may have found a way to push forward his multibillion-dollar proposal to send Panhandle groundwater and wind-generated electricity to North Texas:
Create a special government with the power to bury more than 300 miles of 8-foot-diameter water pipe and electric transmission lines across a dozen counties – whether the counties' leaders or affected landowners like it or not.
Commissioners courts in Kaufman County and Roberts County, northeast of Amarillo, are each scheduled to vote Tuesday on a petition for an election to create such a district.
If either measure passes, the stage will be set for a handful of the businessman's supporters to vote in November to form a freshwater supply district. Under state law, such districts can fund projects at low interest rates by issuing tax-exempt bonds. They can also exercise the power of eminent domain to use private property anywhere in the state, though they must pay the owners.
Both counties' meetings are open to the public. The meeting in Kaufman will be at 9:30 a.m. in the Kaufman County Annex Building, 100 N. Washington St.
Commissioners in Kaufman and Roberts counties have no problem with Mr. Pickens' goal: providing needed water plus electricity that backers say would match the output of two coal-fired power plants, without the coal-fired pollution.
But at least two of them are uneasy about the means to the end.
"My question was, 'Do we have the authority to approve this?' " said Kaufman County Commissioner Ray Clark. "Can I say what happens up in Amarillo, and by the same token, can Amarillo tell us what to do in Kaufman County?"
Roberts County Judge Vernon Cook has "a constitutional question": whether it's right to enable the use of government powers for the benefit of business, in this case Mr. Pickens' Mesa Water and Mesa Power.
"At what point, and at what level, is a governmental entity allowed to be involved in private enterprise?" Mr. Cook said.
Mesa Water consultant Ron Harris, a former head of the Collin County Commissioners Court, says that the concerns are overblown, and that the projects would benefit everyone: Landowners along the route would be paid for the use of their property, drought-prone North Texas would get needed water, and the state would get an infusion of cleanly produced electricity.
"It's really going to do some good," he said. "This will significantly benefit landowners in all of those 12 counties. They'll be able to make significantly more from the wind and the water than they can from their livestock or crops."
How it would work
As for the worry about making a decision that could affect faraway counties, Mr. Harris noted that the tables could just as easily be turned.
"You could flip it around and have some other counties doing the same thing to Kaufman County," he said. "The main thing is, if this is what the Legislature voted could happen in Texas, that's available for anybody."
And as for the concerns about creation of a government to benefit Mr. Pickens' businesses? "I haven't read the exact wording, but as long as there is a requirement that there is a public good that comes out of it, that balances it," Mr. Harris said.
Mesa Water spokesman Jay Rosser broadens the issue further.
"We believe the state, and the D-FW metroplex area in particular, faces some critical water supply and power supply issues," he said. "We think we have a solution to both of those."
And, he said, the power would come from sources that would help North Texas in its struggle to comply with federal clean-air rules
Mr. Rosser said that by pursuing petitions in two counties, Mesa was trying to leave nothing to chance in its bid to create a district: "We don't want to leave any stone unturned and delay it any more than we have to."
Wednesday is the deadline for commissioners to put an issue on the Nov. 6 ballot.
Although the new freshwater supply district would own the water pipeline, pumps and other infrastructure, Mesa Water would benefit from water sales. Eventually, some of that revenue would pay off the money borrowed, through the tax-exempt bonds, to build the $1.5 billion pipeline, Mr. Rosser said.
Mesa Power expects to make money by selling its wind-generated electricity, but it needs the transmission lines to hook into Texas' power grid near Dallas. Those transmission lines, which probably would be buried in the same 200-foot-wide right of way as the waterline, also would cost about $1.5 billion, Mr. Harris said. The wind farm in the Panhandle – which, with 2,700 turbines, would be the world's largest, according to news reports – would cost an estimated $9 billion.
Because there is not yet a buyer for the groundwater, the water district could enable the electric project to happen first, Mr. Harris said. In fact, Mr. Rosser said revenue from electricity sales probably would be used to make payments on the debt for the waterline until water sales revenue was available.
Potential stumbling blocks
If a freshwater supply district is created, the broader venture will still face other obstacles. Among the biggest is that Mesa has no buyer for its water. The company has begun new talks with the North Texas Municipal Water District and the Tarrant Regional Water District, but in the past both have characterized the company's water as more costly than that from other potential sources.
"As you might suspect, a water proposal of this complexity is pretty difficult to understand," said Jim Parks, North Texas Municipal's executive director. "To evaluate it, we're having some discussions with them to determine whether that project is more viable now than it has been in the past."
Another potential stumbling block could be concern about drawing down the Ogallala Aquifer in the Panhandle. Opponents note that the aquifer recharges very slowly.
Mr. Rosser, however, said Mesa Water has agreed that through 2048, it won't take the aquifer more than 50 percent below its 1998 volume. Company officials have said they can do that and still supply water for a century at a rate of 150,000 to 200,000 acre-feet a year. That amount is roughly half to two-thirds as much water as North Texas Municipal supplied to 1.6 million residents last year.
Another obstacle could be opposition from counties through which the project might pass. Collin County Judge Keith Self, for example, wrote this week to Mr. Clark, the Kaufman County commissioner:
"I have no issue with an entrepreneur using innovative ways to supply water to North Texas. I have a huge issue with developing a FWSD [fresh water supply district] that will have legal authority to condemn land over a 320-mile stretch of Texas land, the vast majority of which is not in Kaufman County. This is abuse of legal authority and must be an unintended consequence of an old law, a law that was never intended to give such broad authority to a local FWSD."
If a district is created in Roberts County, Mr. Cook said, it will consist of 8 acres deeded to five of Mr. Pickens' employees or supporters. The Kaufman County district would encompass a planned 69-home subdivision and lake on 319 acres owned by Mike Boswell, a Pickens employee. Mr. Boswell said he had plans to develop his land even before the idea came up of tying it to the Mesa projects.
Kaufman County Judge Wayne Gent said he doubts commissioners can legally turn down the request for an election.
"They have far-reaching authority, this is true," he said of freshwater supply districts, "but unless the petition is basically flawed, I don't think Kaufman County has the right to deny the petition."
And in Roberts County, Mr. Cook said that "as bad as it sticks in my craw and as nasty a taste as it leaves in my mouth," he would probably support the petition. Although he has concerns about draining the part of the Ogallala Aquifer that lies under the area, he said, they are offset by the promise of jobs, income for ranchers and other economic benefits that Mr. Pickens' projects could bring to a county with fewer than 900 residents.
"I feel it's my responsibility to do what's right for the landowners and residents of the county," Mr. Cook said. "And as one of my commissioners says, 'He owns that water, so he can do with it what he wants to.' "
Last edited by Haretip; 04 September 2007 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Add link to article for the netiquette nazis
Andy Haretip
Advertise here! Ask me how!
As a landowner in the panhandle I am all for this. It's all up to the individual landowners rights whether or not they want to sell and/or have pipelines criss-cross thier property.
The promise of economic development in a county of 900 people is a disingenuous joke. Wind farms are not the next Spindletop, not even the next Barnett Shale. This will line a few pockets, but it will not promote local business because there will never be critical mass.
You mind posting the link to the article. Also, is it not breaking forum rules to post entire articles?
As a landowner on the southern end of the Ogallala, what gives you the right to draw down the common aquifer and make my well go dry? Other than current Texas law, which is in dire need of revision.Originally Posted by St-T
Andy Haretip
Advertise here! Ask me how!
A few months back, or gosh was it almost a year ago, the ultimate source of all sources did an interview with Mr. Pickens. Pickens told Playboy Magazine that water is the next oil in the southwest due to all of the population explosions in Vegas, Houston, San Antonio, DFW, Phoenix, ect.
Haretip, you are right. The fact that Texas does not regulate aquifers in the same manner that it does rivers and reservoirs is an embarrassment.
This state is not going to be republican forever. Soon big business will have to answer to an entirely different political monster. A leftist/socialist government fueled by an army of immigrants and Hispanic Americans. The question is whether or not this will happen before or after Boone sticks is straw into the pan handle.
Why do you think he's working on raping the land now instead of later? The guy's a lot of things, many of which aren't appropriate to describe here, but "dumb" ain't one of 'em.
As a Kaufman landowner, I'm offended that Pickens picked us as the "too dumb to know better" end of his Axis of Weevil.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
It's fantastic that T. Boone wants to do the wind farm thing, but if he's just gotta make money by pumping Ogallala water, I wish he would put it into South Plains & Panhandle agricultural exports -- boxed up in Dallas, shipped out of Houston. T.Boone could prime the pump that channels more American Heartland exports through the Port of Houston and relocates Commodities Trading Markets to Dallas.
"Mr. Rosser, however, said Mesa Water has agreed that through 2048, it won't take the aquifer more than 50 percent below its 1998 volume. Company officials have said they can do that and still supply water for a century at a rate of 150,000 to 200,000 acre-feet a year."
Uh huh, so what happens when that 100 years is up? Is that one of those things we're not supposed to care about because we'll be dead by then?
Consumers are not [the same as] citizens, and when a system pretends that they are, peculiar and even perverse things happen to decision making and democracy... - Benjamin Barber
Pickens : Wind Farm :: Perry : High-Speed Rail
Pickens is only touting the wind farm thing to distract casual environmentalists from the damage he'll do by mining fossil water under the Panhandle. I doubt he has any more plan to build wind turbines than Gov. Goodhair Perry has to build high-speed rail links as part of his Trans-Texas Corridor boondoggle.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
^You are WRONG WRONG WRONG.
I know you are, but what am I?
(In other words, I'm sure you have some valid points of disagreement with someone, possibly me. Could you please elaborate in a more objective fashion?)
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
St. T probably read how the wind farm will help finance the water end of the project. But just because they help make the pipeline more viable doesn't mean that you're wrong about its being exploited simply to make the project respectable and almost noble-sounding at a glance. Pickens needs the project to have a semblance of respectability to get it rammed through. He doesn't actually need to tiptoe around to come up with money to back it.
St-T might know exactly what T Boone is planning w/ the electricity because ST-T's family has actually had conversations w/ Mr Pickens about his plans. So, instead of posting a bunch of stupid comments he posts fact.
I'm sure Mr. Pickens is doing all of this out of the goodness of his heart for the benefit of you and the other 300 denizens of Collingsworth County, but I would appreciate it if you didn't sell my water to Frisco say they can waste it their front yard.
I can understand and support the wind energy, but he needs to keep his mits out of the Ogallala.
Andy Haretip
Advertise here! Ask me how!
Wrong County, and it's my water and we can do whatever we want with it.... guess you (family) should have settled further north.
Let me guess, your folks came to Texas from Easter Island, right?
The history of Easter Island is not one of lost civilisations and esoteric knowledge. Rather it is a striking example of the dependence of human societies on their environment and of the consequences of irreversibly damaging that environment. It is the story of a people who, starting from an extremely limited resource base, constructed one of the most advanced societies in the world for the technology they had available. However, the demands placed on the environment of the island by this development were immense. When it could no longer withstand the pressure, the society that had been painfully built up over the previous thousand years fell with it.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Hopefully state law will be changed so Ogallala water cannot be exported from one of the driest areas of the state. If there's gonna be a pipeline, it should be bringing water to the Panhandle not away from it.
^There is more than enough water in the Ogallala for a population boom in Amarillo and to send water from 4 Panhandle counties (w/ a combined total population LESS THAN 25,000) to supply water in North Texas.
The Ogallala Aquifer is the largest aquifer in North America, extending beneath 174,000 square miles across eight states with more than three billion acre-feet of water.
Beneath the four-county area of Roberts, Hemphill, Lipscomb and Ochiltree, there are approximately 81 million acre-feet of high-quality, terrorist-resistant drought-proof water, with annual recharge estimated at 80,000 acre-feet. Only a very small percentage is used for irrigation because the topography of rolling hills, mesas and canyons is unsuitable for farming. Of 2.5 million acres in these counties, only 4% (about 100,000 acres) is irrigated.
Most of this water can be described as “surplus” because it’s not needed in the Panhandle, either for agriculture or municipal use.
It is also “stranded” because without production facilities and a delivery infrastructure to other parts of the state there is no market for it.
The only possible market for this water is selling it to areas of the state that need it most, consistent with
Last edited by St-T; 06 September 2007 at 03:03 PM.
That sounds like an ideal location the Texas Great Plains State Park and Nature Preserve.
^Sure... come up w/ the billions to buy the land.
Properly managed, natural resources should be used to support the region's growing population and economy. Emphasis on "properly". From the article:
Mr. Rosser, however, said Mesa Water has agreed that through 2048, it won't take the aquifer more than 50 percent below its 1998 volume. Company officials have said they can do that and still supply water for a century at a rate of 150,000 to 200,000 acre-feet a year. That amount is roughly half to two-thirds as much water as North Texas Municipal supplied to 1.6 million residents last year.Mesa is saying that they'll suck down half the water in the aquifer over the next 40 years, and that they can keep it up for another 60 before the "largest aquifer in North America" is as dry as the land above it.
Like warlock55 said, though, I guess that doesn't matter since we'll all be dead in 100 years. Personally, that's not the legacy I'd want to leave my great-grandchildren. But hey, if you don't care what happens after you've shuffled off this mortal coil, by all means do what you want. What I want, however, is for the Texas Legislature to stop you before your right to swing your fist intersects my decendants' collective nose.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Tell that to the folks in Central Texas who use aquifer water and have some of the strictest restrictions in the state.
Pegasus News reports that Texans for Public Justice has a take on the issue, and points out that there were changes to Eminent Domain law that should make anyone who favors the rights of the individual to control his own property cringe, at the least.
The water district that Pickens is seeking in the Panhandle would not have been viable without the recent legislative changes. Until last month, petitions to create a water district required the support of a majority of the registered voters within the proposed district’s borders. Changes enacted this year dropped this electoral requirement for a more feudal one. Now a district can be formed with the backing of whoever owns the majority of the appraised land value within its proposed borders. ... The 2007 legislature revoked a requirement that only local registered voters could serve on the boards of these water districts. Now any Texas resident who owns property in the district can sit on the board.So much for this argument:
Your "individual landowners rights" just got bought by T. Boone Pickens, and the Texas Legislature was the realtor.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
I'm glad we are on the board. And, this is mostly for the pipeline.
Go T Boone, Go!
The Justice Department ruled in August to block those changes made by the legislature to allow property owners not living in the district to serve on the board.
Also, Pickens recently suspended his plans for the pipeline project.
Dallas uber alles
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