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Thread: DTD | Arts District: Museum Tower (560 FT. (584 FT.) / 42 ST.) | V2.0

  1. #1751
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mojito
    Mayor wades into uproar over Museum Tower's glare
    http://dallasmorningviewsblog.dallas...wades-int.html
    I am surprised that the Mayor openly stated the the taxpayers are ultimately on the hook for this investment. Now we have a luxury tower and a hotel to backstop, when we are not trying to prevent flooding and keep libraries open.

  2. #1752
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin View Post
    I am surprised that the Mayor openly stated the the taxpayers are ultimately on the hook for this investment. Now we have a luxury tower and a hotel to backstop, when we are not trying to prevent flooding and keep libraries open.
    It almost sounds like the mayor believes the Pension Fund should have never invested in Museum Tower quite odd to hear from him even if he wasn't mayor then. I have to agree they better settle this themselves.

  3. #1753
    Skyscraper Member Double Wide's Avatar
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    I still think this is a small issue that got blown up on a slow news day. Why wasent this problem pointed out in September? It seems like Nasher dragged their feet, and are now feeling the pressure from the artist and are trying to make them self's look like victims to something they just noticed. "Highrises are hurting the Art district!" I dont hear the DMA or the theaters throwing a fit about stuff going up around them.

    Help the Tower get a special lens coating put over the windows on that side of the building that will not reflect light but still allow for crystal clear views out of them and move on! And if this technology does no exist, put money into inventing it and make money off selling it to other people! Stop the bitching and moaning and lets get this fixed!!!!
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  4. #1754
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Wide View Post
    And if this technology does no exist, put money into inventing it and make money off selling it to other people! Stop the bitching and moaning and lets get this fixed!!!!
    Why don't we just put money into a cloaking device for Museum Tower? Or a Simpson's style Mr. Burn's sun blocking shield?

  5. #1755
    Skyscraper Member Double Wide's Avatar
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    if it stops the Nasher guys from whining then do it. They need to stop playing to the media and fix the problem.
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  6. #1756
    Land Sea Lion jimmyx18's Avatar
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    It's a really simple solution. Just don't wash the windows on that side of the building. Eventually it takes care of itself. :P

  7. #1757
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    maybe our sun will die out soon and this won't be a problem.

  8. #1758
    Skyscraper Member Double Wide's Avatar
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    there seriously has to be a non light reflective coating you can put on the windows to stop this.
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  9. #1759
    Supertall Skyscraper Member TexasStar's Avatar
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    Just change the Nasher's open hours to only occur between sundown and sunrise.
    Problem solved.

  10. #1760
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Wide View Post
    if it stops the Nasher guys from whining then do it. They need to stop playing to the media and fix the problem.
    Word.

  11. #1761
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    tear down the Museum tower, and make it shorter ...

  12. #1762
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    Please.

    Stop kowtow-ing to the Nashers and other haters. What next? The rumbling from the new Woodall Rogers Deck Park 'tunnel' disrupting the galleries? Fill it in? Those pesky Southwest jets too unattractive and noisy above? Shut down Love Field?

    If they wanted to build an art oasis, there's plenty of open land zoned accordingly. They chose to develop (thankfully) in an urban area and get to enjoy the merits of being in a 'big town'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT3x View Post
    Why don't we just put money into a cloaking device for Museum Tower?
    If it weren't for the Treaty of Algeron, we could use a phasing cloak, which would allow it to pass through normal matter. No more worries about a plane crashing into it, the plane would just pass right through. Would make both the Nasher folks and Love Field happy at the same time!

  14. #1764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Rodriguez View Post
    If it weren't for the Treaty of Algeron, we could use a phasing cloak, which would allow it to pass through normal matter. No more worries about a plane crashing into it, the plane would just pass right through. Would make both the Nasher folks and Love Field happy at the same time!
    Somebody get a hold of La Forge and Ensign Ro, quick! Oh wait, they're dead. NO THEY'RE NOT AFTER ALL.

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    This reminds me of a similar issue with the Walt Disney Concert Hall here in LA a few years ago. The glare from the steel was heating up condominiums across the street and disturbing drivers during certain times of day. The issue went on for about a year before Frank Gehry sand-papered the high-gloss stainless steel finish from the part of the building causing the issues to a dull, matte finish. Don't know if something similar would be possible with Museum Tower.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...ert-hall_x.htm

  16. #1766
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    I know this would not be a popular option but would a canopy, like the one over at Winspear work over part or all of Nasher? That could effectively block the reflection and keep the "desired" sunlight. But then nobody that lives at Museum could see the Nasher from their condos. I don't know, this whole thing sounds so dumb.

  17. #1767
    Mid-Rise Member txdore's Avatar
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    I'd say its highly probable that the architects have now run a sunlight study on the tower to determine what time of day and what time of year creates conditions that may adversely affect their neighbors. These are pretty accurate models.

    I doubt adding some kind of coating to the tower is a viable solution. That's a lot of (expensive) glass area. More likely the solution with be a settlement and some kind of alterations at the nasher.

    Reminds me of the little lady across the street that doesn't like something on my property even though I have the zoning and permits to do it.

    Frankly, I can think of a couple of other reflective buildings that give me a migraine just thinking about it. Like Campbell Centre for one.
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  18. #1768
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    Not only does the reflections that compromise the art viewing change during the day, the reflections will change during the year. There's probably going to be more reflection distraction if the museum's eastern neighbor ever gets anything built, so it kinda seems like the only solution is different louvers.

  19. #1769
    High-Rise Member 1999McKinneyAve's Avatar
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    As far as the comments go about being able to forecast what's going to built around you in the future, all you have to rely on are the existing zoning laws. You expect those to be enforced in the future otherwise we might as well toss out the Plan Commission and Board of Adjustments and become another Houston. For Museum Tower, they need to provide the Nasher Garden with whatever resources it needs to protect itself from the glare. Same goes for Woodall Rodgers Park. If it means planting more trees and moving some of the sculpture to other areas of the Garden, then write out the check. If it means bringing back the Nasher Garden's original architect to reconfigure the building, then get on with it. Do it before this because a bigger PR issue.

  20. #1770
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1999McKinneyAve
    As far as the comments go about being able to forecast what's going to built around you in the future, all you have to rely on are the existing zoning laws. You expect those to be enforced in the future otherwise we might as well toss out the Plan Commission and Board of Adjustments and become another Houston. For Museum Tower, they need to provide the Nasher Garden with whatever resources it needs to protect itself from the glare. Same goes for Woodall Rodgers Park. If it means planting more trees and moving some of the sculpture to other areas of the Garden, then write out the check. If it means bringing back the Nasher Garden's original architect to reconfigure the building, then get on with it. Do it before this because a bigger PR issue.
    The Nasher is an awesome place and a great contribution to downtown. They aren't just a bunch of losers thinking nothing would ever get built near them (as several here have suggested).

    The Museum Tower has sold 20 units (as of a couple weeks ago). With several of those being sold to foreign buyers. It is in a comically unwalkable location, ringed by a highway, basing its hopes entirely upon a future park that is also largely isolated by unwalkable/unbikeable streets and sidewalks to its north.

    The Nasher has done nothing wrong. This joke of a tower is the issue.
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  21. #1771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangers100 View Post
    The Museum Tower has sold 20 units (as of a couple weeks ago). With several of those being sold to foreign buyers. It is in a comically unwalkable location, ringed by a highway, basing its hopes entirely upon a future park that is also largely isolated by unwalkable/unbikeable streets and sidewalks to its north.

    The Nasher has done nothing wrong. This joke of a tower is the issue.
    Here we go again with the "comical" "joke" and "insert insulting term here." Interested to see how long this stint lasts.

  22. #1772
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1999McKinneyAve View Post
    For Museum Tower, they need to provide the Nasher Garden with whatever resources it needs to protect itself from the glare. Same goes for Woodall Rodgers Park. If it means planting more trees and moving some of the sculpture to other areas of the Garden, then write out the check. If it means bringing back the Nasher Garden's original architect to reconfigure the building, then get on with it. Do it before this because a bigger PR issue.
    Okay, so lets say I'm running an art gallery. I install a piece that is a stick of butter sitting outside covered with glass and I have an engineer design a cooling system that keeps the butter at precisely the right temperature to stop it from melting, but has no excess capacity for unplanned shocks to the system. You build a house across the street that is entirely within zoning and has all the proper approvals, but once a day your bedroom window gives my precious butter just enough sunlight to melt it. The bill to get the fancy pants butter cooling engineer to solve the problem is a million dollars.

    So under your view, the person who built the house and got all the proper approvals would have to pay... not the guy who set the butter out?

    Are you really suggesting that we set this precedent?

  23. #1773
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT3x View Post
    Okay, so lets say I'm running an art gallery. I install a piece that is a stick of butter sitting outside covered with glass and I have an engineer design a cooling system that keeps the butter at precisely the right temperature to stop it from melting, but has no excess capacity for unplanned shocks to the system. You build a house across the street that is entirely within zoning and has all the proper approvals, but once a day your bedroom window gives my precious butter just enough sunlight to melt it. The bill to get the fancy pants butter cooling engineer to solve the problem is a million dollars.

    So under your view, the person who built the house and got all the proper approvals would have to pay... not the guy who set the butter out?

    Are you really suggesting that we set this precedent?
    Except you have something wrong there Museum Tower is actually violating city code. They submitted documents to the city stating how reflective their exterior would be as part of construction approvals but actually they installed glass that reflects much higher amounts of sunlight that is more that city code allows. In a sense they lied to the city on what they built, as Museum Tower stands today it is in violation of city code.

    SO if the city were to enforce the city code Museum Tower would have to make changes the city is just trying to stay out of it for now.

  24. #1774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangers100 View Post
    The Nasher is an awesome place and a great contribution to downtown. They aren't just a bunch of losers thinking nothing would ever get built near them (as several here have suggested).

    The Museum Tower has sold 20 units (as of a couple weeks ago). With several of those being sold to foreign buyers. It is in a comically unwalkable location, ringed by a highway, basing its hopes entirely upon a future park that is also largely isolated by unwalkable/unbikeable streets and sidewalks to its north.

    The Nasher has done nothing wrong. This joke of a tower is the issue.
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    I say the museum tower should sit on a turning foundation. This way the entire building can spin giving each resident a 360 degree panoramic view. Something that would attract buyers from around the globe! The engineering required to do such a project would attract TV shows and all sorts of advertisement/publicity. After that techies, super rich, celebrities would all be begging to get a condo inside. Then to top it all off they could reshape the facade to a concave shape giving the tower the ability to focus its rays upon whatever target it choses!!!

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    Last edited by downtownguy25; 20 February 2014 at 11:52 AM.

  27. #1777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rangers100 View Post
    The Nasher is an awesome place and a great contribution to downtown. They aren't just a bunch of losers thinking nothing would ever get built near them (as several here have suggested).

    The Museum Tower has sold 20 units (as of a couple weeks ago). With several of those being sold to foreign buyers. It is in a comically unwalkable location, ringed by a highway, basing its hopes entirely upon a future park that is also largely isolated by unwalkable/unbikeable streets and sidewalks to its north.

    The Nasher has done nothing wrong. This joke of a tower is the issue.
    What is your source for the "20 units sold"? I don't doubt the developer said it, but as per usual with this developer, it's kind of funny. It seems like they've been claiming 20 units sold for 5 years. Seems like they've hit a wall in their marketing. ;-)

  28. #1778
    Skyscraper Member ChampionDallas's Avatar
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    Landscaping is taking shape along the Pearl St. exit.

    http://commercial.austinprojects.com/museumtower.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25 View Post
    You mean something like the Dynamic Tower in Dubai?

    http://www.dubai-architecture.info/GALL/DUB-DT.htm
    HAHA wow! I should have guess Dubai would have something like that in the works! But yes something along those line. They could use the Museum Tower death ray to demolish old buildings near by or to incinerate those "terrible" homeless people like ants.

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    Walking to lunch today, I couldn't help but notice that Fountain Place is pretty much a mirror. Are we sure that Museum Tower violates code? What's our source on that?

  31. #1781
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    It doesn't violate code. There is something in the city code regarding artificial illumination, but that would not apply to reflected light. There was an agreement as to the allowed reflectivity of development on that property, but that has expired and is no longer relevant.

    Actually the folks at the Nasher should be glad Museum Tower is convex, and not concave like this building: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09...gas_death_ray/

  32. #1782
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter View Post
    It doesn't violate code. There is something in the city code regarding artificial illumination, but that would not apply to reflected light. There was an agreement as to the allowed reflectivity of development on that property, but that has expired and is no longer relevant.

    Actually the folks at the Nasher should be glad Museum Tower is convex, and not concave like this building: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/09...gas_death_ray/
    Last I checked the city does have code that restricts the amount of light a tower can reflect on neighboring properties related to the reflective properties of the glass installed on a building. Museum Tower had to submit that info to the city before starting construction and I am not talking about artificial light either. I will check again and get back to you guys as soon as I can get an answer.

    Good part of that article to reference here:

    The Vdara's management is well aware of the threat to guests, which it attributes to a "solar convergence phenomenon". The architects had taken this into consideration, and "hired a consultant who decided to place a thin film over the window which reduces the sun's effects by 70 per cent".

    MGM Mirage spokesman Gordon Absher admitted: "But even with that, when folks are out on the pool deck, on some days people will feel this reflection and the heat associated with it."

    Absher explained that there's no easy fix for the problem, since the hot spot will shift according to the season, and so throwing up a few extra-thick umbrellas would mean their continual repositioning.

    He said: "This is quite literally an astronomical challenge. We are dealing with a moving target."

    Although the Vdara is mulling hi-tech solutions, it's immediate response to the death ray menace is to fall back on "larger, thicker umbrellas" and "maybe some large plants".

  33. #1783
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT3x View Post
    Walking to lunch today, I couldn't help but notice that Fountain Place is pretty much a mirror. Are we sure that Museum Tower violates code? What's our source on that?
    Well while Fountain Place looks like a mirror its darker glass doesn't reflect light the same way the glass does on Museum Tower.

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    Last edited by downtownguy25; 20 February 2014 at 11:52 AM.

  35. #1785
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25 View Post
    Think JohnMcKee's photo shows other wise.
    Call me when its more than one moment in time from one persons condo. Hardly a emergency situation considering how far away he is and it does not appear that he is melting because of it. Call me when neighboring towers complain about a Fountain Place "death ray" which may actually be a thing so feel free to find out if its true. Besides I could simply answer that by saying that because of towers like Fountain Place the city put into place reflective limits to keep from this kind of thing from happening again yet here we are. What is that thing about repeating histories mistakes.

  36. #1786
    High-Rise Member Mena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyeagle05 View Post
    Call me when its more than one moment in time from one persons condo. Hardly a emergency situation considering how far away he is and it does not appear that he is melting because of it. Call me when neighboring towers complain about a Fountain Place "death ray" which may actually be a thing so feel free to find out if its true. Besides I could simply answer that by saying that because of towers like Fountain Place the city put into place reflective limits to keep from this kind of thing from happening again yet here we are. What is that thing about repeating histories mistakes.
    We definitely get the Fountain Place death ray.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyeagle05 View Post
    Call me when its more than one moment in time from one persons condo. Hardly a emergency situation considering how far away he is and it does not appear that he is melting because of it. Call me when neighboring towers complain about a Fountain Place "death ray" which may actually be a thing so feel free to find out if its true. Besides I could simply answer that by saying that because of towers like Fountain Place the city put into place reflective limits to keep from this kind of thing from happening again yet here we are. What is that thing about repeating histories mistakes.
    I've nearly crashed my car due to the glare from both Fountain Place and Campbell Center.

    Of course, I'm apparently not as money hungry as the Nasher Sculpture Center so I didn't make a federal case out of it.

  38. #1788
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Wait from the heat or just a glare? I am exclusively referring to a focused beam of heat and light that is strong enough to cause damage to things like art and plants? I get glare from many area buildings certain times a day because after all its glass.

  39. #1789
    High-Rise Member Mena's Avatar
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    This photo doesn't adequately describe the glare/beam I see. Definitely "put your glasses on because I'm blinded" type of glare. Our art is placed on opposite wall..so can't really speak to damage. I'll try and grab a shot next time.

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/jpetraliax/2794458536/

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyeagle05 View Post
    I am exclusively referring to a focused beam of heat and light that is strong enough to cause damage to things like art and plants?
    Sunlight is sunlight. MT doesn't have the convex shape that would be required to focus and intensify light. The glare you get off of Fountain Place would be just as strong as the MT glare. I'd argue that Fountain Place would be stronger due to the obviously higher reflectiveness.

    Funny how the trees near Fountain Place seem to survive...

  41. #1791
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT3x View Post
    Sunlight is sunlight. MT doesn't have the convex shape that would be required to focus and intensify light. The glare you get off of Fountain Place would be just as strong as the MT glare. I'd argue that Fountain Place would be stronger due to the obviously higher reflectiveness.

    Funny how the trees near Fountain Place seem to survive...
    Hmm maybe that's because the reflective glass on Fountain Place may not be as strong as Museum Tower like I suggested before. Just because it has a glare occasionally doesn't mean its the same problem Museum Tower is dealing with. Maybe Fountain Place is using trees that can stand the heat. Or maybe its the simple fact that the plants and the art in the Nasher are farther away from the base of Museum Tower within the distance to get the strongest reflection of heat and light than the trees that are placed around Fountain Place. The trees around Fountain Place are in the shadow of the skyscraper it stay really cool down there due to this and the water fountains. As I assume the trees and pool on Museum Tower property wont be affected by the reflective properties. Fountain Place doesn't really have any plants or big natural light designed structures nearby to affect badly or a city park either. Fountain Place is surrounded by parking lots and a freeway and the fort like YMCA.
    Last edited by cowboyeagle05; 12 April 2012 at 02:19 PM.

  42. #1792
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT3x View Post
    Sunlight is sunlight. MT doesn't have the convex shape that would be required to focus and intensify light. The glare you get off of Fountain Place would be just as strong as the MT glare. I'd argue that Fountain Place would be stronger due to the obviously higher reflectiveness.

    Funny how the trees near Fountain Place seem to survive...

    It's a mystery. There are towers with reflective glass in cities all over the world, and somehow trees, art and etc seem to survive.

  43. #1793
    High-Rise Member Mena's Avatar
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    Trees seems to survive alright in the sun..............................................

  44. #1794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mena View Post
    Trees seems to survive alright in the sun..............................................
    As any good gardener knows It depends on the tree and there is a certain amount of light that come from the sun directly on this part of the earth and when something man made or natural increases its strength and multiples the amount of sun directed towards one area it can affect even the most hardy of plants.

  45. #1795
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyeagle05 View Post
    As any good gardener knows It depends on the tree and there is a certain amount of light that come from the sun directly on this part of the earth and when something man made or natural increases its strength and multiples the amount of sun directed towards one area it can affect even the most hardy of plants.
    Well that explains it. I have a black thumb.

  46. #1796
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    They had this problem with Vdara in Las Vegas City Center. The developer said they applied a film to the hotel that would cause the light to scatter. I'm sure that film could be used in this application with a better success since Museum Tower's shape isn't in the concentrator form that Vdara suffers from. Funny thing is, I haven't heard about this in almost 2 years. It came up and it went away, and Las Vegas is still taking reservations.

    http://thehopefultraveler.blogspot.c...las-vegas.html

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    CandysDirt.com

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  48. #1798
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    Quote Originally Posted by aygriffith View Post
    They had this problem with Vdara in Las Vegas City Center. The developer said they applied a film to the hotel that would cause the light to scatter. I'm sure that film could be used in this application with a better success since Museum Tower's shape isn't in the concentrator form that Vdara suffers from. Funny thing is, I haven't heard about this in almost 2 years. It came up and it went away, and Las Vegas is still taking reservations.

    http://thehopefultraveler.blogspot.c...las-vegas.html
    You mean they didn't shut Vegas down???

  49. #1799
    Member
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    Mar 2011
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    For my $2.2 million I would want a bigger bedroom...BUT my $2.2 million also does not exist, so I suppose my opinion does not matter....

  50. #1800
    Skyscraper Member ChampionDallas's Avatar
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    Sep 2011
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    Southlake
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    Traditional: looks homey, too stuffy. Modern: looks clean, too cold. Timeless: perfect!

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