DTD | Arts District: Museum Tower (560 FT. (584 FT.) / 42 ST.) | V2.0

**FoUTASportscaster** · 16 October 2008, 09:00 AM

^Growth is too big a term to say it is good or bad. The type of growth is what's the issue. If an area is desireable to live or work then something will go there.

Haphazard growth that typifies a suburban landscape is generally viewed as a negative, because when the growth stops, the taxes coming in don't pay for the services coming out. Zoning, overlay distrcist or tax abatements/incentives can be one way to influence the type of growth. All San Francisco is doing is saying if you build here, you will build something that we find compatible with our city. Since the area is desireable to build, developers are complying.

The idea that Dallas has to whore itself out to developers so we can see growth is a falacy. If an area is desireable to developers, like Uptown, they will build. If it isn't, like Pleasant Grove, they won't.

As for your assessment of MT, I agree. I would like a better street-level structure to occupy this property.

**tamtagon** · 16 October 2008, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by utgf

Still, having moved from Dallas to SF 2 years ago, I hope I never have to leave.
And I am a recently married (heterosexual

) every sunday church going guy working in the financial industry.
The combination of urban life, outdoor activities, temperate climate and incredible vistas are hard to beat.

In my CA experience, the level of pretentiousness in SF is sustained at a suffocating level, but I was always able to find friendly people more easily than in LA/Orange County. The only thing I dont like about SF is the cold weather. If my friends/family were anywhere on the West Coast, I would probably live in SF because it is so amazingly beautiful; Laguna Beach/Dana Point/San Juan Cap are almost as pretty, but the city is just too far away. It's hard to be a prideful Texan, sometimes, because I know I'm not supposed openly acknowledge that anything in CA is better.

Oh, ya, hopefully something real will happen with the Museum Tower so we'll have some fresh on-topic material to chew up. The current SF discussion is interesting and germane to the forum's purpose, but over time it's just going to get lost in this thread as soon as the Museum Tower gives us new material. Someone please remind me to extract the SF themed discussion and set it up with it's own thread.

I was totally intrigued by the rumor that Crain Hall was looking to buy the property. That wouldnt surprise me one bit. The ire of forum is reasonablly piled on Craig Hall, but I have no doubt that when he's ready to build on the old Lone Star site, it will be outstanding.

**ancientshoes** · 17 October 2008, 09:45 PM

anyone with "contacts" heard any new news about M.T.?

**Double Wide** · 17 October 2008, 10:26 PM

Im a contact if you count that E-mail they send me every week trying to get me to buy a condo there and telling me construction will begin next month.

**NThomas** · 17 October 2008, 11:34 PM

Has anyone seen the model of the tower in the sales office on Flora St? I stood & stared at it for almost 10 min. That model alone is amazing. If they would just build a to scale replica, that would be perfect!

**Kelley USA** · 18 October 2008, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by NThomas76207

Has anyone seen the model of the tower in the sales office on Flora St? I stood & stared at it for almost 10 min. That model alone is amazing. If they would just build a to scale replica, that would be perfect!

If only we could replace this with the proposed CC Hotel... I would consider MT "iconic"...

**ancientshoes** · 18 October 2008, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Kelley USA

If only we could replace this with the proposed CC Hotel... I would consider MT "iconic"...

I think (I hope) you mean "replace the the proposed CC hotel with MT"

**Spjz** · 18 October 2008, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by TheMapman

Lake Highlands, North Oak Cliff, the South Oak Cliff/Redbird area, the Village, Lakewood, Northeast Dallas, Far North Dallas, Oak Lawn....lots of areas between the extremes (Park Cities/Preston Hollow/Uptown or South Dallas).

I'll give you Redbird (although the larger South Oak Cliff area is hardly middle class), and I already noted Lake Highlands, but I've lived in North Oak Cliff, and it's not middle class, nor is Lakewood or Oak Lawn. I couldn't tell you about Far North Dallas, as I never travel north of LBJ unless...nope, never go up there.

**vman** · 23 October 2008, 08:29 AM

Anyone see the piece on Channel 5 news last night about whether or not this project will see the light of day? The developer is still being positive even in this economy and he said they've had 50 million in presales. The segment also showed some incredible renderings. I would try to find a link, but don't have time right now.

**gchrisbailey** · 23 October 2008, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by vman

Anyone see the piece on Channel 5 news last night about whether or not this project will see the light of day? The developer is still being positive even in this economy and he said they've had 50 million in presales. The segment also showed some incredible renderings. I would try to find a link, but don't have time right now.

Caught the tail end of it, right as they were saying that the developer hopes to break ground early next year... :mumbles:

**Double Wide** · 23 October 2008, 01:40 PM

their web site has some new renders up

**dfwcre8tive** · 23 October 2008, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Double Wide

their web site has some new renders up

Has it become shorter in the new renderings? It could just be the angle. In some it looks taller than the Trammel Crow Center, and in other it is shorter (at 42 floors it is shorter).

**Double Wide** · 23 October 2008, 01:47 PM

no, still the same

**FoUTASportscaster** · 23 October 2008, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by gchrisbailey

Caught the tail end of it, right as they were saying that the developer hopes to break ground early next year... :mumbles:

So...we now have a fourth ground-breaking date. This project is as healthy as can be.

**JohnMcKee** · 23 October 2008, 02:13 PM

As pretty as that glass curtain wall is I wonder if it could be hindering the project a little bit. Sure, it makes the building look great from the outside and great views from the inside but there is a perception of loss of privacy plus all that light is murder on artwork and makes temperature regulation difficult, things that I would think are pretty high up on the list of concern of potential buyers.

**Double Wide** · 23 October 2008, 02:16 PM

Im sure they will have the same blinds system as other glass condos to give you your privacy.

**aygriffith** · 23 October 2008, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster

So...we now have a fourth ground-breaking date. This project is as healthy as can be.

Thanks Chicken Little...

**Mballar** · 23 October 2008, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by aygriffith

Thanks Chicken Little...

:2lol:

**gchrisbailey** · 23 October 2008, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster

So...we now have a fourth ground-breaking date. This project is as healthy as can be.

Just like the economy...

I still think it will happen, even if it is pushed out a couple years...the need is there, the money isn't...

**VictoryPark** · 23 October 2008, 03:36 PM

who's counting anymore?

A great example why nobody believes Developers.

**FoUTASportscaster** · 23 October 2008, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by aygriffith

Thanks Chicken Little...

So how many pushed back ground-breaking dates do there need to be for you before the light bulb turns on in your head that this project may be added to the list of unbuilt's? 10? 20?

**AeroD** · 23 October 2008, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster

So how many pushed back ground-breaking dates do there need to be for you before the light bulb turns on in your head that this project may be added to the list of unbuilt's.

There was a similar project in Austin - the Four Seasons - that was pushed back probably 5 years, if not more, and it is now getting built.

**FoUTASportscaster** · 23 October 2008, 04:13 PM

^With frozen credit, huge payments needed from purchasers, a razor thin demographic, and a looming recession?

**AeroD** · 23 October 2008, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster

^With frozen credit, huge payments needed from purchasers, a razor thin demographic,

I hear you, man.

But don't worry it will get built.

By the time you payoff your student loans from grad school and you are working for the city or some developer, you will be purchasing your condo in Museum Tower Part Deux. Hell, you might even consult on its design.

Aygriffth will be in the Museum Tower or Las Colinas shooting spitwads at you.

DoubleWide will be running around taking photos.

Everybody is a winner!

**Double Wide** · 23 October 2008, 05:16 PM

All im good for is photos?

**cmacemm** · 23 October 2008, 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by AeroD

The hell with it, I am going off-topic too.

Is $50,000-$90,000 "middle class" household? If I am not mistaken the salary for the average college student is about $46,000. The average starting salary for a police officer is about $42,000

By the time that student or police officer marries another person they will be in that $100,000-$150,000 range.

i wish that was the average for college students. I don't make half that and none of my fellow students I know make anywhere near that figure either. I can't even find a job that will pay me $25,000 and I think I have a pretty good resume. completely off topic but i just wanna know what make you think the average college student makes $46,000.

**DallasMan** · 23 October 2008, 06:30 PM

I would think that with all the new structures finally taking shape in the Arts District, interest in this would only rise. Its such an amazing design, and a phenomenal location. If any building would get built in these tough credit times, I would think this might be the one.

**aygriffith** · 23 October 2008, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster

So how many pushed back ground-breaking dates do there need to be for you before the light bulb turns on in your head that this project may be added to the list of unbuilt's? 10? 20?

That's a very simple answer... When they close the sales center and stop trying to get people to buy into the development. This isn't a skeem, its a legit attempt at development; no one is selling beachfront property in Arizona. When they stop believing I will too.

If this development doesn't make it what will? If you can't get rich people with disposable income excited about downtown dallas you might as well pack your bags because there aren't enough anti establishment misers out there to fuel the "proletariat" type development you want for the CBD.

I continue with my statement that this development has a poor direction for its marketing. Slow your marketing towards Dallas, increase it towards wealthy foreigners and those with wealth who don't reside in Dallas. This development is no stretch in Chicago, NY, Philly, and Seattle where there are people who live in ultra luxury highrises. Why not try to attract these people to the fourth largest metro in the country with a truly unique opportunity to own a residence in an iconic firsts building. Every other month I get my issue of Departures and every other month i don't see an add for it. That would be the first magazine I'd advertise in, everyone else pushes their developments there.

As for what AeroD said, I'm pretty sure Museum Tower II with consulting by FOUTA would be a resounding success, that is as long as DHA is looking for places for its Bridge residents...

**gchrisbailey** · 24 October 2008, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by AeroD

Aygriffth will be in the Museum Tower or Las Colinas shooting spitwads at you.

Hopefully the spitwads will be in the Water Street area, which is getting started...

**KesslerDweller** · 25 October 2008, 10:51 AM

The reason they don't advertise outside of Dallas is because Dallas is not an international or destination city. Seattle, Vancouver, San Francisco, NYC, Miami, etc. are international cities that attract a lot of foreigners. People come to Dallas to work.

They should instead market to oil and gas people.

Originally Posted by aygriffith

I continue with my statement that this development has a poor direction for its marketing. Slow your marketing towards Dallas, increase it towards wealthy foreigners and those with wealth who don't reside in Dallas. This development is no stretch in Chicago, NY, Philly, and Seattle where there are people who live in ultra luxury highrises. Why not try to attract these people to the fourth largest metro in the country with a truly unique opportunity to own a residence in an iconic firsts building. Every other month I get my issue of Departures and every other month i don't see an add for it. That would be the first magazine I'd advertise in, everyone else pushes their developments there.

**cowboyeagle05** · 25 October 2008, 11:51 AM

Originally Posted by KesslerDweller

The reason they don't advertise outside of Dallas is because Dallas is not an international or destination city. Seattle, Vancouver, San Francisco, NYC, Miami, etc. are international cities that attract a lot of foreigners. People come to Dallas to work.

They should instead market to oil and gas people.

One thing is they are advertising internationally cause Dallas does have a wide international presence just not as much known as those cities yet. The little bit of advertising here is relevant cause Dallas has a vast population of the rich elite even excluding the suburbs.

**AeroD** · 25 October 2008, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by vman

Anyone see the piece on Channel 5 news last night about whether or not this project will see the light of day? The developer is still being positive even in this economy and he said they've had 50 million in presales. The segment also showed some incredible renderings. I would try to find a link, but don't have time right now.

http://www.nbcdfw.com/around_town/re...Roadblock.html

**FoUTASportscaster** · 25 October 2008, 03:48 PM

So $50 million in pre-sales means that less than 1/3 of the units have been sold, correct?

**AeroD** · 25 October 2008, 04:06 PM

On the website it says that place is going to have 122 owners.

Now, if we assume that all their $50 million in pre-sales are just base plans at $1,000,000 than you are looking at least 40% sold.

**Tucy** · 25 October 2008, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by AeroD

On the website it says that place is going to have 122 owners.

Now, if we assume that all their $50 million in pre-sales are just base plans at $1,000,000 than you are looking at least 40% sold.

Yes, but that seems like a pretty silly assumption, does it not? The units start at $1,000,000. It seems very unlikely that they even have 50 units that are the very lowest price level. And even if they did have 50 units for sale at the very lowest price level, it seems quite unlikely that only those units have "sold".

**AeroD** · 25 October 2008, 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Tucy

Yes, but that seems like a pretty silly assumption, does it not? The units start at $1,000,000. It seems very unlikely that they even have 50 units that are the very lowest price level. And even if they did have 50 units for sale at the very lowest price level, it seems quite unlikely that only those units have "sold".

Well since you asked...as I do not have all facts and figures available, all I can do is assume based on the limited information that I have, therefore my assumption is not silly. In short, I am working with what I got. But if you got better assumptions by all means.

**Tucy** · 25 October 2008, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by AeroD

Well since you asked...as I do not have all facts and figures available, all I can do is assume based on the limited information that I have, therefore my assumption is not silly. In short, I am working with what I got. But if you got better assumptions by all means.

LOL I pretty well explained why your assumptions were silly. Your assumptions seem to be based on nothing more than a hope and a dream, and maybe a little Kool-Aid. ;-)

**FoUTASportscaster** · 26 October 2008, 12:50 AM

Agree with Tucy. My assumptions were the same there, which is how I got to a third.

And Aero, if your assumption is right and only the base units are gone, this project is in a lot more trouble than even I realize.

**AeroD** · 26 October 2008, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster

Agree with Tucy. My assumptions were the same there, which is how I got to a third.

And Aero, if your assumption is right and only the base units are gone, this project is in a lot more trouble than even I realize.

I am not saying my assumption is right or wrong, you asked a question, I thought, "Hey, let me see what I can figure out". I just used the numbers I could based on information from the Museum Tower's website (122 owners), prices posted on this thread (at least $1,000,000) and 50 million in presales (KXAN report).

Is it perhaps on the optimistic side? Maybe. Or it could be bad, depending how you look at it.

Unless you guys got other numbers - numbers for the kind of units sold - which you probably don't, then you are running on "gut feelings".

**VictoryPark** · 26 October 2008, 11:54 AM

I was told the average unit price was closer to $2,000,000, which seems to add up. The total sellout was supposed to be +$250 million (500,000 net sellable SF). So, $50 million in pre-sales would only be 20%. It's an expensive building, they can't cut prices to less than their costs. The construction cost is over $300 PSF (Turner), making the break-even PSF somewhere near $450 PSF.

I seem to recall the building was originally priced at $400 PSF on lower floors, up to $800 PSF for Penthouses ($600 PSF AVG.).

Last time I spoke with someone at MT he said they were around 30%, but who knows.

**KesslerDweller** · 26 October 2008, 08:53 PM

I was on the MT web site checking out their renderings and floor plans. Same old interior finishes as everyone else. Also, if I am going to pay $7 million for a penthouse, it better be more kick ass than MT's version. Where is the outside deck space? Where is the pool?

Now, this is a proper penthouse floor plan!

http://www.quiggcapella.com/pdf/floo.../b_a_2_s_1.pdf

**maconahey** · 27 October 2008, 03:39 PM

Developers: Dallas' Museum Tower project still in the works despite economic downturn

02:28 PM CDT on Monday, October 27, 2008
By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News
stevebrown@dallasnews.com

Developers of Dallas' lofty Museum Tower say they haven't put the freeze on the planned Arts District project.

Builders and investors in the deal say the 42-story luxury residential high-rise will be built, despite rumors the development has been tabled because of the financial market plunge.

"No, the condo tower is definitely and definitively not on hold," developer John Sughrue said Monday. "We continue to sell residences and we continue to work with (general contractor) Turner to price the project.

"We will break ground as soon as the credit markets thaw to the point where we can close a loan, and we continue to work with lenders on a daily basis to move our financing forward," Mr. Sughrue.

But that probably will be in the first quarter of next year, not this month as previously announced, he said.

Located overlooking the Nasher Sculpture Center and the planned Woodall Rodgers Park, the glass high-rise is planned to contain more than 100 condominiums with prices starting at about $1 million.

The $200 million cylindrical tower was designed by Los Angeles architect Johnson Fain.

The project was first scheduled to start early this year.

Mr. Sughrue said the building team is hard at work on the development.

"We are in the middle of permitting the project right now with the city," he said. "But it's impossible to get any project out of the ground today.

"We are going to get started as soon as we can."

Several Dallas-area condominium projects have been cancelled in recent months as housing market problems have continued and economic woes have grown.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...15477ae2e.html

**VictoryPark** · 28 October 2008, 12:36 AM

"No, the condo tower is definitely and definitively not on hold," developer John Sughrue said Monday. "We continue to sell residences, and we continue to work with [general contractor] Turner to price the project.

"We will break ground as soon as the credit markets thaw to the point where we can close a loan, and we continue to work with lenders on a daily basis to move our financing forward."

No price for the project yet, still selling and waiting for the credit markets to thaw. That's priceless.

**aygriffith** · 28 October 2008, 12:55 AM

Originally Posted by VictoryPark

No price for the project yet, still selling and waiting for the credit markets to thaw. That's priceless.

The other option would be?

**VictoryPark** · 28 October 2008, 01:01 AM

Get a real Developer.

**Double Wide** · 28 October 2008, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by VictoryPark

Get a real Developer.

What is a "real" developer in your book???

**aygriffith** · 28 October 2008, 01:35 AM

Who's a real developer? You spoke that Prescott might have the abilities because it was such a good developer to get Apollo's stalled start jumpstarted again on The Heritage, I guess they don't. You've pissed and moaned about Hillwood saying their out of touch. Someone very similar to your postings was banned and all he could say was the developer of St Anne Court (Harwood?) couldn't get that past a parking garage. I think you're somehow stating that Matthews Southwest is in on screwing the city on the CC Hotel.

Christ... is there anyone in Dallas that is a "good developer"? You seem to say you know alot yet haven't complemented a single developer that I can remember.

Even Shelbourne is placing a hold on the Chicago Spire and not selecting a contractor for the superstructure till the credit markts unfreeze.

**ancientshoes** · 28 October 2008, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by Double Wide

What is a "real" developer in your book???

The one that actually creates it...much like a mother.

**Kelley USA** · 28 October 2008, 12:17 PM

The guys at MT have to be happy with all the pub they've been getting lately!! These guys are getting more free pub by doing nothing at all- GENIUS!!!

But I really hope this thing gets built- it would be a skyline changer for sure!~