DART D2: Downtown Dallas Subway / 2nd LRT Alignment

[Haretip]

Wow. That is a lot of data. Hard to skim through quickly. And I didn't see a recommended alignment while skimming through. I suppose they were evaluating all of the options.

[GreenzaLine]

Actually, those files have been available for months now... In fact, I think they might've been posted just before DART's financial troubles came to light.

Edit: I never really read through it before (I just skipped to appendix C), but there are some interesting highlights, especially regarding DART's other plans.

Page 55:
• "While all of the CBD stations currently can accomodate a 3-car SLRV train, some outlying stations can only accomodate a 2-car SLRV as of September 2009." This is before any of the humps were added at stations, meaning that some stations must have a problem with platform length.

Page 68 shows the initial alignments DART looked at.
• Only F1, F2, and F3 connect to the north end of Deep Ellum station.
• Alignment D1 would reroute the Red and Blue Lines as a north-south route through downtown!

Page 72:
• The West Dallas Corridor is identified as "West Dallas to Plano" and has the color pink.
• The Southport Line is shown as a separate brown line running alongside the Blue Line only as far north as 8th & Corinth Station.
• The humps added to the outlying stations for level boarding are only an interim solution.

Page 75:
• The service headways for all light rail lines, including the West Dallas Line and the Southport Line, are given as 10 at-peak, 20 off-peak. Orange Line service is split beyond Pearl with 20/20 to Scyene and 20/-- to Parker Road. TRE, A-train, Cotton Belt, and SW2NE service is given as 20/60.

Page 76:
• The Southport Line is reaffirmed as terminating at 8th & Corinth Station.
• The West Dallas Line is listed as ending at Victory Station. However, this page discusses the "no-build" option for the D2 alignment.
• There are plans to double-track the entire TRE Line, even the Tarrant County section.

Page 77:
• DART intends to interline NCTCOG's McKinney corridor with the existing Red Line.
• NCTCOG's Frisco corridor would use existing TRE tracks to connect to Union Station.

Page 83:
• If the D2 alignment were built, the West Dallas Line would, instead of terminating at Victory Station, run through the existing Bryan/Pacific transit mall to Lawnview Station. Thus, it would serve Deep Ellum Station all day without using it as a switchback.
• If the D2 alignment were built, the Southport Line would, instead of terminating at 8th & Corinth Station, run through the existing transit mall to LBJ/Central Station off-peak and Parker Road Station during peak times.
• The Cotton Belt is given similar weekend headways to the light rail lines, but this may be a typo.

That's all I've found so far.

[electricron]

This is still the (Draft) DEIS, not the (Final) FEIS. A preferred and alternate route has to be selected before a FEIS can be made. That's been postponed until DART can find financial resources to build it, and until Congress passes a new appropriations Transportation Bill. The previous appropriations bill ended after FY 2008, in FY 2009 and FY 2010
no new bill was passed, only continuation of existing projects and yearly stimulus programs. The only new transit programs getting funding in the last two years have been stimulus projects, like the streetcar funding received by Dallas and Oak Cliff.
No one knows what Federal funds will be available for transit projects in the near future, as is, there is no "New Starts" funds available for new transit projects like DART's D2 line.

[GreenzaLine]

I'm also troubled by the fact that DART was planning to run the Red, Blue, West Dallas, and Southport Lines all through the existing CBD corridor at the standard 10/20 headways. Wouldn't that just put them right back in the same situation in 2030?

[electricron]

Who's to say DART will actually build light rail instead of streetcars or something else to West Dallas and Southport? Those are corridors DART plans to study in the future, but aren't we placing the cart before the horse assuming they'll be light rail lines long before the studies begin?
Besides extensions of the existing light rail corridors, the only new light rail corridor I can visualize is one branching off the Green line at Lawnview (Where DART has placed a staging/storage track). Even it could end up being a streetcar line.
If the proposed NCTCOG regional rail lines are built, like the DCTA A-Train, at which stations will the transfers take place? How much further will the Red, Blue, and Green light rail lines be built south and/or north? Use the existing end-of-line stations or build one more new station designed from scratch for cross platform transfers?

[GreenzaLine]

Who's to say DART will actually build light rail instead of streetcars or something else to West Dallas and Southport? Those are corridors DART plans to study in the future, but aren't we placing the cart before the horse assuming they'll be light rail lines long before the studies begin?

I'm just going by what the document said, and at the time DART was not considering turning any of those corridors into streetcar lines. DART's plan was to make them light rail, and I was expressing some concern with that plan.

Besides extensions of the existing light rail corridors, the only new light rail corridor I can visualize is one branching off the Green line at Lawnview (Where DART has placed a staging/storage track). Even it could end up being a streetcar line.

There's nothing wrong with streetcar lines. It's just that that wasn't what DART was planning. And yes, I know the current plans for the corridor put the tracks right in the middle of SH 352, so it would be easy to build it up as streetcar line in the same corridor.

Can streetcar lines interline with light rail lines, though? I assume they can to some degree after that "SMU Line" showed up on one of Dallas's maps, running half on SMU Blvd and half on the Red Line tracks.

By the way, what is it about building these corridors as streetcar lines that would make them so much cheaper than a light rail line?

If the proposed NCTCOG regional rail lines are built, like the DCTA A-Train, at which stations will the transfers take place? How much further will the Red, Blue, and Green light rail lines be built south and/or north? Use the existing end-of-line stations or build one more new station designed from scratch for cross platform transfers?

The NCTCOG plans for the McKinney corridor put another two stations in Plano. Since I doubt whatever regional agency that forms to build the line out to McKinney will include Plano, it will probably be a new northern terminus for the Red Line. As for the Blue Line, it might be easier (logistically, not in terms of cost) to extend the light rail tracks to Rockwall, since the alternative is a commuter rail line that only runs between Rockwall and Downtown Rowlett Station.

[ancientshoes]

I might have mentioned this in another post, but in Brussels, Belgium the streetcars doubled as metro-style light rail vehicles in some stations: They would go slow and over streetcar tracks in the surface, and then in certain underground stations they would speed up and act as metro trains. The interesting thing is they also had separate, traditional subway trains on different tracks yet still in the same station, just above or underneath them.

The tram (streetcar) lines which went underground into metro stations were referred to as "premetro", the traditional subway (metro) trains were just referred to as metro.


Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels_Metro

[RobertB]

By the way, what is it about building these corridors as streetcar lines that would make them so much cheaper than a light rail line?

I think it may be the ROW costs (you're running in a street, so there's no property to purchase). Also, running at lower speed means you don't have to build the rails as heavy or include as many control systems. But I'm talking out of my a... the air, so I'd love to hear from Haretip, etc on this question.

The NCTCOG plans for the McKinney corridor put another two stations in Plano. Since I doubt whatever regional agency that forms to build the line out to McKinney will include Plano, it will probably be a new northern terminus for the Red Line. As for the Blue Line, it might be easier (logistically, not in terms of cost) to extend the light rail tracks to Rockwall, since the alternative is a commuter rail line that only runs between Rockwall and Downtown Rowlett Station.

Actually, you could run a commuter line to downtown Dallas along existing active freight lines. The DGNO parallels the Blue Line to Downtown Garland, then there's a wye to the rail line parallel to Garland Rd. through East Dallas that meets the UPRR corridor. From there, you can roll right into Union Station (assuming UPRR will finally play ball). So you could have commuter rail from Rockwall -- or Fate, or Greenville.

[electricron]

Actually, you could run a commuter line to downtown Dallas along existing active freight lines. The DGNO parallels the Blue Line to Downtown Garland, then there's a wye to the rail line parallel to Garland Rd. through East Dallas that meets the UPRR corridor. From there, you can roll right into Union Station (assuming UPRR will finally play ball). So you could have commuter rail from Rockwall -- or Fate, or Greenville.

You would have to get the KCS to agree to using their corridor from downtown Garland to the UP main line too.
Not impossible, but not likely either with two freight railroad companies you have to negotiate with.
At some point, if they follow the A-Train scheme in the future, a cross platform transfer station will be needed. Most likely, that station will have to be in DART's territory, as DART is not likely to extend light rail beyond their territory.

Therefore:
Red Line north = Spring Creek or Legacy
Red Line south = Red Bird
Blue Line north = Rowlett* (existing transfer station, although another could be built in east Rowlett in the future)
Blue Line south = UNT
Green Line north = Trinity Mills* (existing transfer station, with downtown Carrollton planned in the future)
Green Line south = Balch Springs
Orange Line north = DFW
Orange Line south = Masters

Which brings up a point that riles me somewhat, the two faced arguments from DART's Dallas and Plano board members. They're upset about riders who live outside DART's territory not supporting DART with sales taxes.
They're suggesting charging parking fees at the end-of-line stations in Plano and Carrollton. I wouldn't be surprised to see them do this in Irving and Rowlett too. Yet, not one has suggested doing the same at the existing end-of-line stations in Dallas, or at future end-of-line stations in Dallas.
There's no doubt in my mind that riders riding the trains everyday to downtown Dallas (at least into DART's territory) aren't paying some sales taxes while in Dallas.

[mjblazin]

Why would riding into Dallas vs. driving into Dallas changes what sales tax someone would pay? How would they avoid paying sales taxes on purchases in Dallas?

[tamtagon]

Any kind of D2 update?

Have NCTCOG, DART, any/all other groups of decision makers figured out all light rail trains should have in common at least one downtown station?

The Downtown Dallas 360 Plan is now pursuing a different route for the D2 line... one that avoids running under Lamar and instead connects to Union Station.

http://www.downtowndallas360.com/doc...oid=1000000044

[profbarium]

Which brings up a point that riles me somewhat, the two faced arguments from DART's Dallas and Plano board members. They're upset about riders who live outside DART's territory not supporting DART with sales taxes.
They're suggesting charging parking fees at the end-of-line stations in Plano and Carrollton. I wouldn't be surprised to see them do this in Irving and Rowlett too. Yet, not one has suggested doing the same at the existing end-of-line stations in Dallas, or at future end-of-line stations in Dallas.
There's no doubt in my mind that riders riding the trains everyday to downtown Dallas (at least into DART's territory) aren't paying some sales taxes while in Dallas.

Isn't the argument that they [i.e. those who live outside of DART's territory] aren't paying as much in sales tax to fund the operation? Someone who lives outside the service zone but commutes to Dallas may pay sales tax on his lunch, his dry cleaning, and the occasional birthday card. But so much of his sales-tax dollars are going to McKinney or Mesquite or where ever he lives. That's why DART wants to charge for parking on the periphery: to make it up to the denizens of those towns, who were promised a certain amount of public transportation service. I'm not saying it's a good or bad idea; I'm just trying to understand the logic. On one level, it makes sense; on another, it seems short-sighted and "penny-wise, pound-foolish."

[lakewoodhobo]

Any kind of D2 update?

The latest on D2 was that DART received $700,000 to study additional alternatives. Also...

the 20-year Financial Plan adopted by the DART Board of Directors on September 28, 2010 includes funding for continued planning for D2, but lacks funding for final design and construction prior to year 2030. While this will delay the project opening date, it does provide an opportunity to conduct additional analyses to support a future alignment decision and position the project for other funding sources.

Basically they could explore public-private funding or simply hope the economy improves enough in 10 years that a bond election or federal grant will be feasible.

[tamtagon]

I see Dallas noted on the New Starts map with "NW to SE LRT FFGA" and I guess that's the Cotton Belt connecting DFW airport to Collin County, but D2 is a critical component to regional rail service and should be given priority.

http://fastlane.dot.gov/2012/01/fta-...ry-reform.html

[CTroyMathis]

Actually, I think that's the remainder of the green line delivery from FTA. A bit why the scant Tiger III bonus wasn't too financially worrisome.

But, yeah I'd certainly agree - D2 would be nice.

For the Cotton Belt, maybe LACMTAs/LA Mayors recent look to China for funding is yet another option to consider. . . Or maybe not.

[DallasMichael]

It will be interesting if the Orange Line opening this year forces DARTs hand in giving the D2 a greater priority than it currently has, which appears to be none.

[tamtagon]

It will be interesting if the Orange Line opening this year forces DARTs hand in giving the D2 a greater priority than it currently has, which appears to be none.

It was a tough decision, either finish the line to the airport or build the second route through downtown and although capacity on the Pacific Street Corridor will restrict the whole system, the airport line was determined to be more important. That's how I would have voted.

The New Starts Program (probably) would have allowed a rail station inside Love Field. Unfortunate.... But the bonus for DART may very well be Federal funding for the second line through downtown.

[mjblazin]

It does not matter what priority DART gives it. No money left to build it through 2030 and no money coming from Feds through the rest of the decade. The person that will be the construction manager for D2 is a boy or girl thought to be a math whiz now somewhere in the 6th grade.

[TheDoubletap]

D2 back in the news! http://transportationblog.dallasnews...et-an-ear.html

[tamtagon]

I suspect the Federal Govt will provide most if not all funding for the second light rail route through downtown within the 3-5 years; I hope DART has every option studied, approved, and ready to go before that time.

The State Govt needs to be lead to pay for rapid expansion of street car routes in the cities. It's all politics, but maybe Texans will be lucky enough to see the backward rural & suburban minded choke hold busted so the state can finally start to take care of the cities properly.

[cowboyeagle05]

The great part is whats hidden in the powerpoint about Union Station...

Re-examine an alternative that serves Union Station, as well as the Convention Center Hotel

I really think an alignment that passes through Union Station is better for the overall health of the area.

[homeworld1031tx]

I'm strongly of the opinion that they should run the thing past Union Station, as mentioned in the DDI survey, and then run it down Young as suggested... or even better yet, down Wood Street. Minimum ROW acquisition costs, all of it could be at grade, and then you could just turn Wood into a transit mall. There is great room for redevlopment right off of Wood too; if you run it through young than it borders a plaza and a huge park for nearly 30 percent of its run on one side.

There is also no way that the DDI suggestion is going to be half a billion dollars. That figure was for all of the subway and cut and cover nonsense than went along with using the DART proposed routes. I think the DDI plan is a win win (win win win win)situation. Even the convenction center can be well (reasonably well if through Wood) covered by it.

[gosspl]

I find it interesting (and a little disheartening) that throughout the presentation (almost called it a deck - long day at work) Dart keeps brining up the fact that they've rolled back peak service headways from 10 to 15 minutes. While this was done to accommodate the current network they have (and ILA w/ Dallas), it seems as though they accept that this will be peak period service forever. I get the sense that D2 would be nice to build, but oh you know - it's not like we need it.

I would certainly hope that sooner rather than later, Dallas can get under-10 minute peak period and under-20 minute off-peak service. I would like to think it would also help out our crap-tastic ridership numbers. Let's start planting bugs in the ear's of EBJ, John Carona, and whoever our KBH replacement will be. We have got to get D2 built before 20-never.

Ok. Stepping off my soapbox and back into lurk mode.

[cowboyeagle05]

I find it interesting (and a little disheartening) that throughout the presentation (almost called it a deck - long day at work) Dart keeps brining up the fact that they've rolled back peak service headways from 10 to 15 minutes. While this was done to accommodate the current network they have (and ILA w/ Dallas), it seems as though they accept that this will be peak period service forever. I get the sense that D2 would be nice to build, but oh you know - it's not like we need it.

I would certainly hope that sooner rather than later, Dallas can get under-10 minute peak period and under-20 minute off-peak service. I would like to think it would also help out our crap-tastic ridership numbers. Let's start planting bugs in the ear's of EBJ, John Carona, and whoever our KBH replacement will be. We have got to get D2 built before 20-never.

Ok. Stepping off my soapbox and back into lurk mode.

Thats the thing DART is being realistic they have to keep the 15min if they cant afford the D2 line due to the fact that they have too many trains running through Downtown. The whole reason they are reexamining the D2 plan now with updated info from this year is because the federal government has signaled to them that they should finish their planing for the D2 line and the federal government might be able to fund the project significantly. Notice that the Fort Worth TEX rail project got a similar signal just last week. The feds told them to go ahead and do the engineering for the TEX rail line from southwest Fort Worth to DFW airport so the feds can decide which projects they can fund.

Its kind of a shovel ready approach if you know how much you need for your project and can submit those detailed plans to the federal government we can look them over and possibly grant you funding instead of some of the blank check writing they were doing in the past.

[gosspl]

Thats the thing DART is being realistic they have to keep the 15min if they cant afford the D2 line due to the fact that they have too many trains running through Downtown. The whole reason they are reexamining the D2 plan now with updated info from this year is because the federal government has signaled to them that they should finish their planing for the D2 line and the federal government might be able to fund the project significantly. Notice that the Fort Worth TEX rail project got a similar signal just last week. The feds told them to go ahead and do the engineering for the TEX rail line from southwest Fort Worth to DFW airport so the feds can decide which projects they can fund.

Its kind of a shovel ready approach if you know how much you need for your project and can submit those detailed plans to the federal government we can look them over and possibly grant you funding instead of some of the blank check writing they were doing in the past.

I realize Dart is being realistic (which is nice) but do thank you for the explanation on the recent events in regards to TexRail and the grant to Dart to continue studying D2 alignments. I hadn't connected the dots on these developments and do hope that Federal funding comes through sooner rather than later.

[cowboyeagle05]

I realize Dart is being realistic (which is nice) but do thank you for the explanation on the recent events in regards to TexRail and the grant to Dart to continue studying D2 alignments. I hadn't connected the dots on these developments and do hope that Federal funding comes through sooner rather than later.

Yeah me too DART really needs that D2 alignment and one of their only hopes is to win the eye of the feds to dole out some funding to get it rolling then maybe they can find a way to privately finance the rest.

[electricron]

I'll agree that D2 needs to be built as soon as DART can afford it. But, I don't like the existing D2 line choices, they're all too expensive because they contain subway sections. With future Dallas streetcars jamming the streets downtown, DART needs to find an above grade guideway route through downtown Dallas. The last thing DART needs is transit, either buses, light rail, or streetcars, crowding every other, every third, or even every fourth street in downtown Dallas. It's time to realize that downtown city streets belong to buses and streetcars, and that light rail trains should be above or below grade. Therefore, I suggest raising the tracks onto guidways over the existing light rail street mall. This would eliminate cross street traffic interfering with the light rail trains (or vice versa) allowing much shorter headways between all light rail trains. I believe it is possible for the guideway to be built over the existing tracks without interfering with the existing train service much.
I know it's an entirely new idea to put forth, but I believe it's the best thing DART could do....

[TheDoubletap]

Rather than build a second alignment, why not build a loop like Chicago has? Each train would enter the loop and follow the same direction, than loop around to the line it came from and go back out. This would give Dallas seven lines (North Red, North Blue, East Green, South Red, South Blue, North Green, and Orange) which of course could be renamed to whatever.

They would use both sides of the track. Every line would touch every station. Cross-town trips that now are single ride would require a transfer (i.e. Fair Park to Carrollton), but the transfer could happen at any station in between.

The down side is that if you work right off the current line, your new return trip would become quite a bit longer as you'd have to loop around. A street car loop through downtown running the opposite direction could help balance that (i.e. take the street car the other direction and get off at a station right before your train heads back out.

I made a map! http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=...29767,0.055747


UPDATE: I realize that the map I drew would require quite a bit of work fixing/improving 30 and/or 345 (which I'm in favor of removing) but the extra line to complete the loop could also go back along Cadiz or Canton - wherever the ROW can be had.

[electricron]

Rather than build a second alignment, why not build a loop like Chicago has? Each train would enter the loop and follow the same direction, than loop around to the line it came from and go back out. This would give Dallas seven lines (North Red, North Blue, East Green, South Red, South Blue, North Green, and Orange) which of course could be renamed to whatever.

They would use both sides of the track. Every line would touch every station. Cross-town trips that now are single ride would require a transfer (i.e. Fair Park to Carrollton), but the transfer could happen at any station in between.

Excellent idea in principle, but you forgot one important fact, the loop in downtown Chicago is 100% grade separated ( I believe in an aerial guideway above grade). The existing light rail street mall in downtown Dallas is overloaded for two reasons, (1) all the light rail lines use it and (2) it's at grade with the trains fighting cross street traffic for right-of-way. Making an at grade loop isn't really going to help congestion.

If the existing street mall was raised or lower so the trains will not have to fight cross street traffic for right-of-way, there wouldn't be a need for a second D2 line. I again suggest building an elevated guideway over the existing street mall as a possible solution. The other alternative I like best is the subway under Commerce, or even moving it under Main Street. I don't think DART will be able to build an elevated guideway over Main Street because of all the historic buildings fronting Main, but I don't see a problem building a subway under it....

To establish your Loop in the distant future, the D2 section of the Loop needs to be built grade separated as much as technically possible to switch into the existing lines. Then later, after D2 is finished, DART can come back and grade separate the existing street mall. Subways in downtown Dallas historic districts might be easier to implement, but personally I would be just as happy with an elevated Loop.

When designing a central Loop, you'll want at least 6 city blocks separation (diameter), with around three blocks walks to the closest train stations.

[rantanamo]

That's too simple of an idea electicron. It has been mentioned here before and even suggested to officials. Certain political desires get in the way of things like that.

[txdore]

...why not build a loop like Chicago has? Each train would enter the loop and follow the same direction, than loop around to the line it came from and go back out. This would give Dallas seven lines (North Red, North Blue, East Green, South Red, South Blue, North Green, and Orange) which of course could be renamed to whatever.

They would use both sides of the track. Every line would touch every station. Cross-town trips that now are single ride would require a transfer (i.e. Fair Park to Carrollton), but the transfer could happen at any station in between.

I had a similar idea, but such that only two lines would use a given track at a time.
1. Red line keeps the same alignment.
2. Blue line gets realigned to avoid the existing mall completely by running along the the Good Latimer track briefly, taking a southern D2 route, then rejoining its existing route somewhere SOUTH of Union Station.
3. Green line gets realigned to avoid the existing mall completely by running through Union Station, taking a southern D2 route, and then rejoining its existing route somewhere along Good Latimar.
4. The Orange gets realigned such that it does not run north up NCX but follows the Green line out to Fair Park. On a side note, the Orange line could branch off the Green and follow Scyene.

So in other words, Red & Orange share the existing mall, Orange and Blue share Good Latimar, Blue and Green share D2, and Green and Red share the Union Station. I'll try to post a map.

Pros: it helps alleviate the existing mall traffic. Also it makes room for a fifth line to server DT, like a short line serving West Dallas and beyond (then TRE can become more for the long haul between DTD, DFW, & DTFW).
Cons: it means passengers may have to switch trains depending upon which part of downtown they are going to.

As for the D2 route, IH30 is tempting, but there is not many existing destinations, except for farmer's market and city hall, or (re)developable sites on that route. I would recommend re purposing Canton St.

[txdore]

"Visitors to major cities in the world might disagree, but a small group of French and British researchers has found that regardless of city density, structure and other factors, subway systems running in the biggest cites in the world are more alike than not in truly fundamental ways. In their paper published in the Journal of the Royal Society Interface, the team says that all of the large city subway systems in the world grow in a way that share common features - such as the fact that they all have central cores with a branch topology."

http://phys.org/news/2012-05-subway-...ilar-ways.html

[electricron]

We've all forgotten to include the possibility of Dallas streetcars sharing DART's D2 line, at least in part. Assuming the streetcar line will run east of Union Station on Young, eventually turning north on St. Paul and Harwood, it shouldn't be difficult to route the streetcar tracks to Olive from Hardwood, and crossing DART's Bryan Streetmall to join the MARTA tracks, the tracks along Young could also be used by DART's D2 line. I believe DART can get to Good Latimer from Young without much difficulty. But I don't see how DART can get to Young Street immediately south of Union Station. I know there's proposals branching D2 off north of Union Station to get to Young, but that sort of defeats the purpose of routing through Union Station. And then another problem arises, should the shared tracks be center running in Young Street for faster light rail trains, or curb running for slower streetcars?

If streetcars will be running on Young, St. Paul, Hardwood, and Olive, does DART's D2 line really need to be parallel nearby? Wouldn't Commerce or Main Streets provide better downtown coverage? But then again you couldn't route through Union Station.

[dfwcre8tive]

DART is going to start holding meetings about D2 again, so maybe things are looking more positive for the line.

[electricron]

DART is going to start holding meetings about D2 again, so maybe things are looking more positive for the line.

I hope so. But I think DART would be better off waiting to see where Dallas wants to run streetcars before making a final decision on where to run D2.

[tamtagon]

Just to check, DART's been busy studying all about the second line alternates, right? Or is the deal that since the decision was made to extend into the airport the second downtown route went dormant....? DART ought to have everything studied, decided and ready to start; I suspect the Federal Govt is going to dole out buckets of money next Spring for public transit projects ready to go....

[dfwcre8tive]

I hope so. But I think DART would be better off waiting to see where Dallas wants to run streetcars before making a final decision on where to run D2.

Agreed. I got an email about a community meeting on June 15th asking for feedback on next steps for D2.

[cowboyeagle05]

I believe that's what these new meetings are about now that streetcars will be a official part of the DART system more than just the vintage cars on McKinney. They plan to rethink the D2 line and how streetcars will connect the dots between stations in the entire DART system. There was some presentation provided to the city council a couple months back that said that DART was planning on proceeding with D2 planning so that if a financial solution is found they would be ready. The presentation also said DART would be adjusting their planning strategy to include possible streetcar routes. I would expect for us to see new D2 route options in future meetings with DART.

[electricron]

Just to check, DART's been busy studying all about the second line alternates, right? Or is the deal that since the decision was made to extend into the airport the second downtown route went dormant....? DART ought to have everything studied, decided and ready to start; I suspect the Federal Govt is going to dole out buckets of money next Spring for public transit projects ready to go....

The availability of more stimulus funding will depend upon which party wins both Houses, not just who wins as President. It's stimulus funding that goes to "ready to go" projects. D2 seeking "New Starts" FTA funding must proceed step by step. DART has permission to study and select a preferred route. Once that's decided, then DART must wait for approval to start the EIS process. EIS allows designing up to 10%. Once the EIS is approval, then DART must wait for a full funding agreement to get approval to design up to 100%. DART won't get the full funding agreement until DART can show funding for the local 50% match. Once all that is complete, D2 would be what you would call "ready to go". And DART won't have the funding for the local 50% match until after 2030.
What I'm suggesting is that D2 will not be "ready to go" until after 2030. Golly, look at the hoops Dallas had to jump through to get the stimulus funding for the Oak Cliff streetcar project. Not only did Dallas have to find funds for the local 50% match to build it, they also had to find money to operate it for many years. Dallas used some of it's share of SH121 Tolls prepayment for the local match, and DART's set aside Love Field people mover funds for operating funds, to finally get the stimulus funds. The financial hurdles Dallas has to step through to get the stimulus funds completely discouraged Fort Worth, with them eventually declining to accept the stimulus funds. Without the Love Field people mover funds, Dallas probably would have been forced to follow Fort Worth in declining too.

Even if D2 got stimulus funds next year, DART doesn't have the funds available for the 50% match - although I believe DART has the operating funds in hand because the trains are already running.

[cowboyeagle05]

Let's be clear DART may appear to not have the funds for D2 until 2030 using expected resources.

[mjblazin]

In what alternate universe is the Federal Government going to be handing out money? Medicare and Social Security and debt reduction are the only programs getting any extra money for years to come. The only difference with Democrats and Republicans is how taxes change. If the D2 planning is by volunteers, fine. If we are paying city staff to waste time on it,we need to redeploy them to something else or out the door. Get used to it. The party is over. At least we are not doing what those clowns in California doing, build a high speed train to the desert, expecting funds that will never come.

I will repeat my earlier prophecy. The senior project leader of D2 is a girl in sixth grade somewhere, likely not in this country, showing exceptional aptitude for basic algebra.

[DallasMichael]

I wonder why the blue line south is receiving priority over the D2. Especially given the importance of the CBD line. Seriously, a single stalled train, an accident with a driver trying to beat a red light, or anything else has the potential to cripple the entire system. It is really one of the major weaknesses of the system. I really hope it's not so people can keep talking about the length of the DART light rail system as if it is something to be impressive. Smaller systems are eating our lunch when it comes to ridership.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I wonder why the blue line south is receiving priority over the D2.

Two words: Royce West.

[TheDoubletap]

If the D2 planning is by volunteers, fine. If we are paying city staff to waste time on it,we need to redeploy them to something else or out the door.

I'm going on memory here but I believe that the study is being done by DART people (not city) and that it was paid for with a federal grant - i.e. DART could choose not to do the study, but that wouldn't save DART money. They'd just return the federal money.

[DallasMichael]

I'm going on memory here but I believe that the study is being done by DART people (not city) and that it was paid for with a federal grant - i.e. DART could choose not to do the study, but that wouldn't save DART money. They'd just return the federal money.

At least DART will be able to retain the talking point of longest light rail in the country as a counter to the low ridership numbers. It's just too bad that money couldn't have been used for something better than the extension of a light rail line to something that would be more useful

[mjblazin]

It would be interesting as to what the DART stat is on the ratio of longest leg to radius of core area, vs average of 2. Study said that result had minimum variation. Could say if we overextended ourselves to get tax dollars.

[electricron]

It would be interesting as to what the DART stat is on the ratio of longest leg to radius of core area, vs average of 2. Study said that result had minimum variation. Could say if we overextended ourselves to get tax dollars.

I don't believe DART over-extended itself considering DART's sources of tax revenues.
Let's review which light rail segments qualified for FTA "New Starts" funding...
All of Red Line south of downtown Dallas
All of Blue Line south of downtown Dallas
All of Green Line south of downtown Dallas
Red Line north to Arapahoe
Blue Line north to Mockingbird
Green Line north to Farmers Branch

Not a foot of the Orange Line, nor the Blue Line north of Mockingbird, nor the Red Line north of Arapahoe, nor the Green Line north of Farmers Branch have received "New Starts" FTA funds. Which means, if DART stopped building the lines where the FTA stopped, that the cities of Irving, Carrollton, Plano, Garland, and Rowlett would be without light rail services, and most likely would quit DART at the first opportunity. That the only cities receiving light rail services would be Dallas, Farmers Branch, and Richardson.

I'm sorry, a transit district getting a full penny of sales taxes from 13 member cities will not survive long supplying light rail services to just 3 of them. Now that DART will be finishing Phase II of its light rail construction soon, it can start looking at providing the proper services elsewhere, whether less frequent regional rail or more light rail lines where needed, within its member cities. Non member cities should look at DCTA or FWTA transit type agencies if they don't wish to join DART, I don't agree DART should provide them services if they're not willing to join DART or pay for 100%.

As for the length of the light rail lines from West End Station (my choice for DART's center)as the crow flys:
Red Line south > 6.5 miles
Red Line north > 18.5 miles
Blue Line south > 7.5 miles
Blue Line north > 16.5 miles
Green Line south > 8.5 miles
Green Line north > 16.5 miles
Orange Line west > 16.5 miles
Averaging = ~13 miles

Portland
Blue west > 8.5 miles
Blue east > 12.5 miles
Red west 8.5 miles
Red east > 6 miles
Yellow north > 5.5 miles
Green east > 8.5 miles
(Note Yellow south and Green west don't leave downtown Portland, and I used Portland's Train Station as the center)
Averaging = ~8.25 miles

L.A. (Light Rail Lines, not including subway lines, full build out as planned today)
Blue Line south > 20 miles
Expo Line west > 14 miles
Gold Line northeast > 20.5 miles
Gold Line southeast > 5 miles
(Note Green Line doesn't go downtown, but it is 15.5 miles in length)
Averaging = ~15 miles (with or without the Green Line)

Every city layout is different. Each has the own geographic obstacles and transportation history. Each line, as seen in Dallas between north and south, can have different lengths. I don't agree the population density at the end of the Blue, Red, and Green lines at the southern most stations is higher than at the northern most stations. They're probably much closer than many here believe.

[mjblazin]

My comment on over extension was in comparison to metric identified in the study. I have to expect the researchers that did the study had to include Portland since it has one of the highest profiles of any US system. Your calculations indicate on first pass Dallas is likely beyond the upper control limits of the metric. I agree that DART had to extend to those outer areas. My hypothesis is that building laid the groundwork for a very shaky financial situation that we are now experiencing. The existing jurisdictions cannot fund further expansion or even in-fill and any additional jurisdictions would wait decades before getting rail.

[electricron]

I agree that DART had to extend to those outer areas. My hypothesis is that building laid the groundwork for a very shaky financial situation that we are now experiencing. The existing jurisdictions cannot fund further expansion or even in-fill and any additional jurisdictions would wait decades before getting rail.

I suggest that without all the other existing cities, DART wouldn't had been able to afford the light rail lines up to the point of "New Start" FTA funding participated. I would have been surprised to see any rail lines could have been built beyond Loop 12 in any direction with just Dallas sales taxes revenues. And that's all DART would be receiving if it had taken a strictly urban view on rail transit instead of the suburban rail transit view it presently has.
Just look at FWTA scope of transit operations with just three member cities, imho that's what DART would be if it didn't cow-tow to its suburban member cities with light rail trains service.

I've posted time and after time DART's sources of sales tax revenues, less than 60% actually comes from Dallas, where believe it or not over 80% of light rail trackage is in Dallas. Most of the scheduled bus routes are in Dallas as well. So please don't suggest the suburban cites aren't providing more tax revenues than what DART is spending on them.

Here's the data again......
DART Cities 2003 Gross Sales, DART gets 1% of the gross.
Addison $790,772,466 (7.9 Million)
Carrollton $1,471,612,860 (14.7 Million)
Cockrell Hill $2,839,310 (28.4 Thousand)
Dallas $21,855,940,228 (218.5 Million)
Farmers Branch $1,102,653,937 (11 Million)
Garland $1,423,023,574 (14.2 Million)
Glenn Heights $7,666,833 (76.6 Thousand)
Highland Park $126,961,814 (1.2 Million)
Irving $4,228,989,253 (42.3 Million)
Plano $4,003,020,937 (40 Million)
Richardson $1,862,785,699 (18.6 Million)
Rowlett $185,839,270 (1.8 Million)
University Park $151,386,010 (1.5 Million)
Total $37,213,492,191 (372.1 Million)
Dallas supplied 58.7% of Dart's sales tax revenues in 2003.

Here's the, as the crow flies, light rail corridor distances...
Dallas (total) = 52 miles
Red Line = 17 miles
Blue Line = 16 miles
Green Line = 18 miles
Orange Line = 1 miles

Others (total) = 22.5 miles
Irving = 11 miles
Farmers Branch = 2 miles
Carrollton = 4.5 miles
Richardson = 5 miles
Plano = 2 miles
Garland = 7 miles
Rowlett = 2 miles

Yes, a total of 74.5 miles does not equal the over 92 miles DART rail will soon have, but that's the difference between as the crow flies vs actual track milage. Never the less, the Red Line through Plano is fairly straight, and 2 miles out of 74 miles would be a larger percentage than 2 miles out of 92 miles, yet it's still a pretty small at less than 3% when Plano contributes over 10% of DART's sales tax revenues.
To be fair, one would think Plano should have at least three times more light rail miles of track than it has. At 2%, Plano should have 5 times more light rail miles than it has. And some of us wonder why Plano activists continually want to dump DART? It's not swaying far from the truth to state that Plano puts in far more financial resources into DART than the transit services it receives.

[mjblazin]

I would not suggest anyone is cheating or abusing their share. Unfortunately DART is at a point that it cannot move off top dead center and we can expect to be relatively static for many years. Additionally, if sales tax revenues in existing jurisdictions do not keep up with employee salaries and benefits and equipment maintenance, we will see a gradual hollowing out of the system. It is why seemingly marginal revenue enhancements like parking and fare increases occur. While small, they are critical to holding the wolf at bay until the real revenue source, sales activity within the jurisdictions, gets a significant increase.

That situation is why continued D2 discussion seems pointless. Not happening.

Everything here could have been easily forecast a decade or more ago with basic spreadsheets. One more black mark against DART executive management that might have made some changes to give themselves more financial flexibility. The financial earthquake that we saw as rescheduling the Orange Line was the first time that DART execs finally had to come to grips with the cash flow trends. It got painted as an Irving vs. Dallas battle, but it was really about a come to Jesus session regarding the inability of the DART areas to increase sales activity for years to come.