Reply With QuoteI noticed in the 08DEC PDF the term "LoMac" was actually used on a map. . . forgive me if someone has pointed that out on some other occasion.
B7 Lamar-Commerce
B4 Lamar-Young
B4a Lamar-Marilla
B4b Lamar-Convention Center Hotel
None of the Above
DART Public Meetings
for Downtown Dallas Transit StudyDART invites you to hear a progress update on the Downtown Dallas Transit Study, also known as D2. The D2 Study, which consists of an Alternative Analysis and Draft Environmental Impact Statement (AA/DEIS), is considering a range of multimodal improvements (such as bus, streetcar, and light rail) within downtown Dallas. DART’s key objectives in this two-year study are to increase regional transit capacity, improve service reliability and provide operational flexibility in downtown Dallas for all its services, especially light rail. DART staff will discuss the project timeline and present the latest list of corridor alternatives for major transit improvements. Anyone attending will have an opportunity for official public input to help define issues and concerns addressed by the study. Make plans to join DART at one of the following Open Houses and Public Meetings:
Public Meeting #1
Tuesday December 16, 2008
(11:30 a.m. Open House, 12 noon Presentation)
DART Headquarters Board Room
1401 Pacific Ave., Downtown Dallas
Dallas, Texas 75202 - MAPSCO 45-K at Akard Station
Public Meeting #2
Tuesday December 16, 2008
(5 p.m. Open House, 5:30 p.m. Presentation)
DART Headquarters Board Room1401 Pacific Ave., Downtown Dallas
Dallas, Texas 75202 - MAPSCO 45-K at Akard Station
I noticed in the 08DEC PDF the term "LoMac" was actually used on a map. . . forgive me if someone has pointed that out on some other occasion.
Yes, the "LoMac" term has been floating around at DART meetings lately too.Originally Posted by CTroyMathis
GC invented LoMac.
That's right...ha ha...and got blasted the first time I used the term. Anyways, thanks for the props tamtagon. How funny would it be if that were ever to become an OFFICIAL term outside this forum?!?
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
I use the term LoMac all the time around other Dallasites so consider it spreading the word.
LoMac was even on Wikipedia for awhile...
lol. . .congratulations gc. I think I was one of the blasters. lol. . .who knew?
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
An update briefing to the Transportation and Environment Committee next week (not much new):
http://dallascityhall.com/committee_...y_01262009.pdf
i'm thinking the lamar-convention center is the way to go. We NEED a subway and the more of it the better, but it's irritating me how DART is obviously pushing the street level alignment and making a subway a 'con' because its supposed "lack of visibility" and "perception of being unsafe" (which is complete BS on both counts).
I thought they took out the "perception" bit. It seems like they are really trying to aim for the subway alignments. There's only one that is more at-grade. I think people must have had more input and either the city or business leaders are pushing for the subway instead. Besides, with construction material costs going down, fuel costs going down, and slight deflation, or stagnant growth, I think that it will cost less if they set up the process now or soon. If they had tried before, it would've ended up costing a lot more (a la Orange Line).
Socialism - bringing a greater good to a greater many, one golden parachute at a time.
I think there's many problems that could arise with the Lamar-Convention Center Hotel route. Digging the tunnel under the cemetery may be very unpopular. The extra expense may blow Dart's 20 year financial budget plans.
What I prefer is a modification of the Lamar-Marilla route. Keep it as a subway through City Hall. Drop the joint station near Young. Have two stations instead, one between Jackson and Wood with another under City Hall or just east of City Hall. As the plans are now, there's too much of a gap between the Young station and South Central station. It's afterall going to be downtown route, it's unacceptable to have 7+ city blocks between stations. My suggestion knocks the 7+ city blocks gap down to 4+ city blocks, which means downtown pedestrians will only have to walk a maximum of 3 city blocks reach a Dart downtown light rail station.
I agree are they trying to save money by building less stations? Every time I look at those alignments I think cant they add one more station. At least plan to add another station in the future if the current density in the surrounding area is not dense enough yet. Like Lake Highlands Towncenter is doing.
Apparently, Dart or someone else has plans to develope in the area of the gap between City Hall and South Central, so at least one more station should be built. If not, Dart should build the line under Commerce, where there is density to support a line with plenty of stations now!
As I wrote before, 7+ city blocks between stations is much too far for downtown Dallas.
is the new stimulus bill gonna help this project?
I don't think a preferred route has been decided yet. After that's been decided, 45 days public comment period must occur before an EIS can start. After the EIS has been completed, another 45 days public comment period must occur before a FEIS can start. After the FEIS is completed, projects can be funded by the Feds. EIS can take years to complete.
The D2 line can't receive any "stimulus" funding because it's nowhere near "ready to go" status. But that doesn't mean it will not be eligible for federal funds later, when it is ready to go.
You could look at this way if the stimulus package pays for any other DART projects currently ready that will sort of free up money for DART's D2 line.
very good point, never thought of that. I'd think the orange line would be a prime candidate.
Possibly the last section, I-3, could get federal funds. Dart has already committed to build the I-1 and I-2 sections without federal funds. But Dart would have to complete a DEIS and FEIS on I-3 before it can. Dart would have to submit the DEIS fairly quickly for this line to be completed on time as promised.
Actually, I would hope that a project like the Orange Line I-1 and I-2 would be the *ideal* target for Federal stimulus funding. That and the DCTA route are both projects that were planned without Federal funding originally, but there's no doubt that extra funds would get more construction done sooner, and would free up agency funding for other projects. Remember, they're not "non-federal" projects for some philosophical reason; it's because it would have taken too long and because federal funding was by no means guaranteed.
I've signed up at http://www.recovery.gov/ for emails on the status of the stimulus package funds, and I'm crossing my fingers to see DART, The T, and DCTA well-represented. Here's what the site says we can expect:
Welcome to Recovery.govAll that's left is to keep pressure on Gov. Goodhair, who is trying to score political points by saying we don't want any steenkin' Federal money. Nice to see the Republicans marching in lockstep, right off the cliff.
Recovery.gov is a website that lets you, the taxpayer, figure out where the money from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act is going. There are going to be a few different ways to search for information. The money is being distributed by Federal agencies, and soon you'll be able to see where it's going -- to which states, to which congressional districts, even to which Federal contractors. As soon as we are able to, we'll display that information visually in maps, charts, and graphics.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
I don't think the purpose of the "Stimulus Package" was to build already funded transportation projects, but to put more American workers to work by building new, previously unfunded projects. I-1, I-2, and R-1 are already putting American workers to work, I-3 and D2 aren't. Putting more Federal funds into existing transit construction projects doesn't necessarily mean more American workers will be employed soon. Sure, it'll save the transit agencies some funds, but there's no guarantee those saved funds will be spent on other projects soon.
Last edited by electricron; 19 February 2009 at 11:36 AM.
Actually, if I remember correctly, they are specifically looking for projects that are "shovel ready"
Actually, the stimulus package uses different times for highways, transit and high speed rail projects.
For example, highway building funds, over which states have considerable leeway to select projects, half the funds must be deployed within 120 days or they are sent back to the federal government. Another part of the highway money, called the urban areas allocation, can be spent by 2010. The same rules apply for transit, both bus and rail.
High Speed Rail is different.
The Stimulus Plan includes two provisions modeled after the Act that finance high-speed rail development. First, the Stimulus Plan provides a $8 billion grant for high-speed rail projects that will remain available until September 30, 2011. The grant will be distributed among applicant states, interstate compacts, public agencies having responsibility for providing high-speed rail service and Amtrak for capital projects associated with inter-city passenger rail services reasonably expected to reach speeds of at least 110 miles per hour. The Secretary of Transportation will have discretion to award grants based on an extensive set of criteria, including the legal, financial and technical capacity of the applicant to carry out the project; compatibility with relevant national plans; and anticipated economic, environmental and transportation effects.
If the State Legislature approves the Texas T-Bone bill this session, whether its public or a public-private partnership, it's possible it could qualify for some of that $8 billion........
Last edited by electricron; 20 February 2009 at 04:58 AM.
Isn't the HSR monies in the stimulus bill designated for queen nancy's HSR between Los Angeles and Las Vegas?
No. And after eight years of King George, the right wingnuts have no moral authority to declare themselves subject to any sort of royal tyranny. Help, help, I'm bein' oppressed!
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Even if it is, how is that any different than high speed rail between Dallas and Austin? I'm sure that more than tourists go between LA and LV. If it helps both areas recover some economically, then why not? Tourism was an INDUSTRY the last time I checked. Real Americans work in tourism. The dollars paid to them are generally from outside of their own taxbase. To me, that sounds stimulative. What is your point here?
Some of that high speed rail stimulus is going to be spent in Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, and Wisconsin which have routes already designated for high speed rail. Looking at this map below, the LA to LV route hasn't been designated yet.
So, I'm not sure any stimulus funds would go there.
The difference is that Texas being a Red State with a majority of its members of Congress on the other side of the aisle from queen nancy our chances of getting any money set aside for HSR for the state of Texas from the stimulus bill is well slim to none. Whereas with a stroke of a pin queen nancy and prince harry get what ever they decide they want.
Someone wise told me that the HSR stimulus money didn't come from any senator, as the final version contained drastically more than either the house or senate version. The money was put there by Rahm Emanuell, at the behest of the president. Neither Harry Reid nor Nancy Pellosi put that into the bill. President Obama seems intent on increasing transit options in this country.
Alas, the wise person who told me this not able to communicate such messages himself, for reasons still unknown.
I tell everyone...I smile just because...I've got a city love...
It doesn't matter, PuddinHead. It was spin--dumb spin--that you bought in the first place.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0209/18924.html
8 Billion out of 787.2 billion for HSR according to the article you referenced and Texas is not mentioned at all?
Go figure!
Why feel so disappointed? Technically, Texas doesn't have any official HSR plan in process. No preferred or alternate route selected, No official organization - either public or private, No technical or commercial feasibility studies done, No environmental impact study underway, with No money set aside.
The Federal government isn't going to give Texas any money for High Speed Rail from the Stimulus, we haven't got a viable program officially underway. There's no way we will qualify with so many States with viable programs just waiting for some more funding. For example, California has $10 Billion in funds approved with an EIS study well underway; Illinois has spent significant funds already upgrading tracks and station, the route from Chicago to St. Louis only needs another $500 million to finish a 285 mile HSR project, and they also have four other HSR routes well into the planning and implementing process.
Stimulus HSR funds have to be spent by September 2011, there's little chance a Texas HSR project will catch up to other States for being "Ready To Go". Texas HSR hopes consist of a Public-Private partnership HSR program starting very quickly and getting some of the promised $1 Billion per year in future funds.
But don't blame this lack of preparedness on National partisan politics.
We can only blame ourselves. TXDOT has been broke since we stole 30% of highway taxes to avoid paying more property taxes for education, TDPS, and other programs. The Robin Hood plan also proves we've been robbing Peter to pay Paul for years. There just wasn't any money left in the State's pocketbook to plan and develope through the Environmental process a Texas HSR project.
Other States have, and will soon have Stimulus money to implement some HSR projects. They've been working at HSR for years. We haven't!
Last edited by electricron; 21 February 2009 at 02:08 AM.
The D2 page has been updated with a lot of information regarding the final alignment options. Click on the link to find details about each alignment and send your own comments to DART.
http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/...dallasmaps.asp
Here's an updated map of all the final alignment options together. The good news: BOTH of the most southern alignments now have a station at City Hall. But those options also move the Farmers Market station to the Scottish Rite Temple parking lot.
Common Characteristics to Remaining Alternatives
Each of the light rail alternatives:
1. Follow the same route from Victory Station to the West End and follow DART-owned right-of-way through Victory Park
2. Turn south on the east side of Houston Street to a station adjacent to the future Museum of Nature and Science
3. Pass under Woodall Rodgers Freeway, crossing the frontage roads at-grade and descending into a tunnel to become fully underground at Lamar Street
4. Continue south under Lamar Street and the existing transit mall
5. Use a new underground station that facilitates West End Station, West Bus Center, and future Rosa Parks Bus Plaza transfers
6. Converge at a common point south of the Deep Ellum Station on the Southeast Corridor (Green Line).
_____________________
B7 Lamar-Commerce
This alternative continues underground from the new station and travels under Commerce Street. Two additional underground stations are located near Akard and Harwood. Each station includes an elevator and stairs for street access and connection to the underground pedestrian tunnel system. The line resurfaces immediately west of IH 45.
Benefits: a) Good service to the densely developed area of downtown
b) Direct access to future destinations (University of North Texas Law School and Main Street Garden Park)
_____________________
B4 Lamar-Young
After leaving the new station, this alternative continues southeast under Griffin Street, then resurfaces to street grade at Young Street. It continues above ground for the remainder of the route. Station locations include a station in the median of Young Street between Field and Akard streets, in the median of a reconstructed Young Street between St. Paul and Harwood Streets, and a final surface station located east of Central Avenue.
Benefits: The most cost effective alternative because half of the alignment is above ground
Serves the government center and library area
Serves new developing areas east of City Hall (e.g., Harwood Historic District, Farmers Market, Pershing Square)
_____________________
B4a Lamar-Marilla
This option is similar to B4 Lamar-Young up until it reaches Young St. The difference being that it stays underground. The alignment then crosses under Young St., and runs under Marilla St to a new station below City Hall. East of City Hall, the alignment rises to street level on Marilla near Canton Street between Park and Harwood. The alternative continues at street level to a station at the Scottish Rite Temple parking lot, crosses the Pearl/Young intersection, and continues east in abandoned Young to the Southeast Corridor.
Benefits: Serves the government center and library area
Offers improved access to the Farmers Market area
_____________________
B4b Lamar-Convention Center Hotel
This option is similar to B4a described above, but offers an additional underground station at the proposed Convention Center Hotel and a longer tunnel section. From the new station, it continues south under Lamar to an underground station near Young Street, adjacent to the proposed Convention Center hotel. The alignment turns east passing under the Pioneer Park and cemetery to the 3rd level beneath City Hall. From here the alignment and stations at City Hall and Scottish Rite Temple are the same as option B4a.
Benefits: Provides a station at the proposed Convention Center Hotel
Last edited by dfwcre8tive; 05 March 2009 at 12:26 PM.
I think I like the B4a Lamar-Marilla routing best.
I appreciate that the proposed Convention Center Hotel gets a nod with a station on the B7 route, but seems like more area residents would benefit from the station nearer Wood St (B4 & B4a routes). The ?Wood St? Station and the existing Blue Line Station are well within the comfortable walking distance zone for Convention Ctr & Hotel patrons to use the light rail system for travel to other parts of the area. A stop on a Streetcar route from Oak Cliff into downtown & Uptown would be a much better performing station for the Convention Center Hotel.
I'll agree. It also saves close to $100 million in capital costs over the B4b route.
The hotel guest can walk two city blocks, can't they? Actually, there's no reason why one subway entrance couldn't stretch underground those two city block to the hotel's main entrance. There's plenty of tunnels in downtown Dallas anyways, what's so wrong adding two more blocks?
I'd vote for either B4 or B4a. In regards to B4a, getting the City Hall station eliminated the concerns I had about access to the library and City Hall, and I think the Scottish Rite parking lot station provides much better access to the Farmers' Market than the one across Central (the B4 Farmers' Market station). On the other hand, the B4 route could actually be completed under budget, which is a pretty big positive factor.
Consumers are not [the same as] citizens, and when a system pretends that they are, peculiar and even perverse things happen to decision making and democracy... - Benjamin Barber
I have to agree while I understand a convention center station, and throwing out my disapproval of the hotel project in general, I feel the B4a route is the best route out of the choices even if the Convention Center Hotel project gets built.
As for the distance of the Farmers Market from the planned DART station in the B4a route. It looks fine considering the Streetcar route might end up traveling down Harwood and dead end into the the Farmers Market I wouldn't be worried besides this just make the land in between the two more valuable for development that will connect the two destinations in a more direct way. Plus it not like people expect the DART train to stop on the door front of every place they want to go to.
It just seems like a stretch (no pun intended...) so need a CCH station when the CC station is so close. If anything, maybe DART & the city could make the walkway to the existing CC station enclosed up to memorial drive. Maybe add some moving sidewalks as well. You can eliminate B4b.Boom. money saved.
B4a does seem to make the most sense, though B7 would certainly be better for re-development along the Main St. corridor. If the streetcar actually happens, though, B7 would just be redundant.
Times weighs down on you like an old, ambiguous dream. You keep on moving, trying to slip through it. But even if you go to the ends of the earth, you won't be able to escape it.
Haruki Murakami
B4 gets my vote, simply because it wastes less of the taxpayers money.
Speaking personally, though, all four routes suck for me because they screw up Commerce Street and really screw up Good-Latimer. I've already had to live through years of construction on three of the four major routes into my neighborhood -- Good-Latimer, Hall and Canton/Main. They've already hurt traffic flow by converting grade-separated crossings to stoplights. Starting this fall I'll have to deal with delays from the grade-level crossings. And now they want to close off lanes of my street to run their silly trains down, and turn Good-Latimer from Central to Commerce into a Rube Goldberg-inspired mishmash of rail crossings going every which way?
Damn -- Southlake or Frisco look better every day. :-)
Enjoy the HOAs, the airport traffic, and the mega churches. I hear Southlake is quite the libertarian paradise.
As for the train line, I think they should pick the cheapest alternative that stays south of Commerce.
We're in agreement on that. My suggestion a long time ago was to run it down Canton (or single-track it down Clover) to Trunk.
B4a gets my vote. No need to have a station right at the CCH, just improve routes from the station (there would be 3 within a really, really close distance in reality) to the hotel. Seriously, if the convention center attendees are not willing to walk maybe 3 minutes more, they shouldn't be going to conventions, they must be on their deathbeds.
B4a serves the needs of downtown residents and workers better than B4b.
B4 would be my second choice, and the lower cost is appealing, but the savings would come at the cost of disrupted traffic patterns, which is what mass transit tries to prevent, right? We don't need another at-grade rail line slicing through downtown, I thought this has been discussed?
B4 & B4a both seem to work well with this streetcar proposal, I think is AHunt's suggestion.....
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...d6e7618ab0db81
B4a was my vote. I also liked the fact that B7 went through the only area I visit downtown, the main/elm/commerce section. But this area would be better served with a streetcar.
The thing about B4a as opposed to B4 is that it's more underground. We shouldn't have two above-ground lines running though downtown choking off vehicle traffic. I think Schutze wrote an article about this suporting an underground 2nd alignment. I'm willing to pay the extra costs now.
For security reasons, I've always been concerned about a station underneath City Hall. That station would be a prime target for someone hoping to disable the city's government by leaving a bomb. . .although the Dallas City Council is perfectly capable of disabling the government all by itself.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
yes, that would make entirely too much senseIt just seems like a stretch (no pun intended...) so need a CCH station when the CC station is so close. If anything, maybe DART & the city could make the walkway to the existing CC station enclosed up to memorial drive. Maybe add some moving sidewalks as well. You can eliminate B4b.
Which is why it won't be done...
Exactly. Multiple entrances that stretch two or three city blocks can be achieved. MTA in New York proves this with the 42nd Street Station.
Interactive map showing station entrances
http://www.onnyturf.com/wiki/index.p...Square-42nd+St
http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-34-42.png
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
Does anyone know when the final D2 alignment will be chosen and how? I assume the study is done and requires action by DART and the city. What's the next step here?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks