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Thread: Houston Street Viaduct

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    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Houston Street Viaduct

    The bridge is nearly 100 years old now.

    For a century, Houston Street Viaduct has been a vital link for Dallas
    08:08 AM CDT on Monday, October 25, 2010
    By ROY APPLETON / The Dallas Morning News
    rappleton@dallasnews.com
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...0.21b6f57.html

    The raging Trinity had killed and destroyed. Rising more than 50 feet, the river had swept away or swamped all bridges, leaving Dallas a divided city in late May 1908.

    Boats were Oak Cliff's only link to downtown when concerned residents met at the Lake Cliff Casino to talk about "procuring better means of going to and coming from this city," reported The Dallas Morning News.

    "It has been suggested by some of those interested that a steel viaduct should be constructed from the foot of Houston street to a point high upon the hill which ends at Lancaster road" in Oak Cliff, the paper continued.

    In August 1909, Dallas County voters overwhelmingly approved, despite some public opposition, a $600,000 bond issue to build what would become the city's first all-weather, ideally flood-proof bridge across the Trinity floodplain.

    And a century ago this week, work began on the Dallas-Oak Cliff Viaduct, a project hailed at the time as the world's longest bridge of its kind – just what an up-and-coming city needed to show its mettle.

    Completed in less than 16 months, the crossing opened with ceremonial splendor. "Monster Viaduct Open to Traffic," announced The News, headlining a report on the day's speeches, banquet, parade and 16 pigeon-bearing maids.

    Through the years, what came to be called the Houston Street Viaduct has been a landmark, a gateway, a prime vantage point for viewing the Dallas skyline.

    It has also done its job for the city's transportation system – a role that may expand.

    The bridge's 44-foot-wide roadway originally included space for two sets of track for Interurban trains. The rails were never laid, but the bridge is now the preferred river crossing for a proposed streetcar line linking downtown and Oak Cliff.

    A recent examination of the bridge found problems needing repair but no significant structural flaws. A federal grant has been committed to the project. And planners hope to begin service between Union Station and Methodist Dallas Medical Center by 2014.

    Today, the bridge bears traffic one way from downtown to Oak Cliff, as it has since 1973 when the Jefferson Boulevard Viaduct opened and took half its load. For the occasional walkers and joggers, it's still a two-way route.

    With 15 other roadways spanning the Trinity in Dallas, and another one – the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge – on the way, the Houston Street Viaduct may not carry the load it once did. But in style and substance it remains a standout.

    Designed by Ira G. Hedrick of Kansas City, Mo., the bridge is composed of piers supporting trestles, river-spanning girders and 51 arches. All are made of reinforced concrete – mixed, according to one account, with raw sewage from the Trinity because a drought had dried up other sources of water.

    The News, a project supporter, kept close tabs on the work. And on the bridge's opening day, the paper reported the project had consumed 75,000 barrels of cement, 60,000 cubic yards of gravel, 7,000 cubic yards of rock and 1,787 tons of steel bars.

    The bridge's central span stood 90 feet above the river channel to allow passage of ocean-going boats. Reports of its length range from 5,106 feet to 6,562 feet, depending perhaps on the points of measurement. Reports of its cost vary as well: from $570,000 to $775,000.

    Whatever the numbers, the work "marked an important victory by Dallas in its long struggle with the Trinity River," says a report in the Historic American Engineering Record.

    It was also a monumental selling point and proving ground for the city's forward-looking leaders, said local writer Jackie McElhaney.

    "It reflected the attitude of the people of Dallas," she said. "They were boosters. They were trying to advertise Dallas as a 20th century city. It was an example of what Dallas could do."

    Aesthetically speaking, Willis Winters, an architecture historian, said he has long admired the viaduct.

    "I like the rhythm of the arches. I like the poured-in-place concrete," said the city's assistant director of parks and recreation. "It's well-proportioned. It was a perfect engineering solution.

    "It's the best bridge built in Dallas," he said, adding that honor, to his thinking, will go to the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge, scheduled to open next year.

    The Santiago Calatrava-designed span – with its 40-story arch, cable supports and bed of steel – is a remarkable departure from what Hedrick had in mind 100 years ago.

    Beyond the mundane flow of cars and trucks, the Houston Street bridge has been the scene of many a fatal wreck and traffic jam. It has had its floods and wear and repairs – its leapers and squatters below.

    The bridge has been the subject of postcards over the years presenting welcoming views of a well-lit city and its river. It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1984.

    All of that was years in the future when, as The News put it, a "seething, joyous, color-bedecked mass of humanity" gathered on Feb. 22, 1912, to open the "great structure."

    The paper told of the two-mile, hour-long parade of horse-drawn buggies, carriages and mighty motor-powered vehicles through downtown and across the bridge.

    It told of the guns booming from a river bank, of the children standing and singing "America," and of the birds.

    Bowing to concerns of the Dallas Mothers Council, the Dallas Woman's Forum and others, ceremony organizers agreed to dedicate the bridge with homing pigeons instead of wine.

    Kicking off the festivities, Louise Murphy stood by the 16 maids of honor and said:

    "My dear bird, I liberate you to carry throughout Texas to your home a message of love and greeting, bearing on your wings the word that the great viaduct is completed."

    Each girl then kissed her charge goodbye and let it fly.

    HOUSTON STREET VIADUCT FACTS

    • Voters approved a $600,000 bond issue to build the bridge in August 1909.

    • It was designed by Ira G. Hedrick of Kansas City, Mo.

    • Construction began 100 years ago this week.

    • Construction included 75,000 barrels of cement, 60,000 cubic yards of gravel, 7,000 cubic yards of rock and 1,787 tons of steel bars.

    • The bridge's central span stood 90 feet above the river channel.

    • The bridge opened with a parade and ceremony on Feb. 22, 1912.

    • It was listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1984.

    Dallas Morning News archives

  2. #2
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Where did the viaduct originally go in Downtown? The abrupt turn onto Houston Street has always looked to me like a modification. It seems like the bridge originally dumped into an east-west street (which no longer exists), or perhaps extended to Market Street (now the end of the Jefferson Viaduct).
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertB
    Where did the viaduct originally go in Downtown? The abrupt turn onto Houston Street has always looked to me like a modification. It seems like the bridge originally dumped into an east-west street (which no longer exists), or perhaps extended to Market Street (now the end of the Jefferson Viaduct).
    It's been called the Houston Street viaduct for a reason, 'cause it terminates at Houston Street...

    Link to several photos http://bridgehunter.com/tx/dallas/houston/
    After looking at all the views, I believe it easy to see that the bridge curves exactly where it curves today.

    There are postcards dating back to the 1940s of the Houston Street Viaduct (note: no longer called the Oak Cliff Viaduct)
    http://www.oakcliffyesterday.com/?ta...street-viaduct

    Just found a 1930 aerial photo(map) of downtown Dallas., the curve existed on this bridge then.
    http://digitalcollections.smu.edu/cd...=0&x=283&y=124

    Note the streetcar viaduct located where the Jefferson Street Viaduct is now. Also note that the 4 new bridges for the Kessler Plan (Lamar-McKinney, what we now know as the Continential, Commerce, Corinth, and Cadiz) haven't been completely built yet, although Commerce and Cadiz are under construction..

    Just a little history about the Triniity River Bridges in Dallas.
    http://memory.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/t...ata/tx0958.pdf
    Last edited by electricron; 25 October 2010 at 05:15 PM.

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    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertB
    Where did the viaduct originally go in Downtown? The abrupt turn onto Houston Street has always looked to me like a modification. It seems like the bridge originally dumped into an east-west street (which no longer exists), or perhaps extended to Market Street (now the end of the Jefferson Viaduct).
    I've wondered that too, but every map I've seen shows it terminating at its present location. Perhaps early planners hoped the bridge would one day be extended over the various freight tracks in the area?

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    Supertall Skyscraper Member NThomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFWCRE8TIVE
    I've wondered that too, but every map I've seen shows it terminating at its present location. Perhaps early planners hoped the bridge would one day be extended over the various freight tracks in the area?
    On the 1930s aerial map of DTD electricron posted, The viaduct seems like it had no place earlier to curve as something labeled "Railway Express Agency" to the south of Union Station takes up almost the entire block of Houston Street until the curve were the elevated portion of the viaduct begins.


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    M C Toyer
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    Interesting discussion - the DMN article is well written and the additional references quite helpful. There is a story that 14 year old Herbert Gambrell, later a founding member and director of the Dallas Historical Society, was the first to cross the viaduct on his bicycle, dashing ahead of the hoard of dignitaries.

    A couple of points that might add some perspective:

    The Dallas-Oak Cliff Viaduct was built parallel to the existing Oak Cliff Pike which was an elevated gravel roadway crossing the bottoms with a single iron span on the original Trinity River channel. The Pike was aka Grand Avenue (not the same Grand Avenue in South Dallas) then Zang Blvd and remained in use until the levees were constructed ca 1928. The roadway is visible on the 1930 Fairchild aerial photos on the west (left) side partially in the shadow of the viaduct.

    There is a good ca 1915 photo of Houston Street and the viaduct taken from the courthouse roof that shows the abrupt curve in William McDonald's, "Dallas Rediscovered." It also shows the Oak Cliff Railroad / Interurban / DRT tracks a block west on Record Street formerly Jefferson.

    The levees were built under the viaduct and now cover some of the concrete arches. The railroad control tower at the foot of Houston Street was elevated when the viaduct was built to permit view of the tracks to the south.

    The central span of the viaduct which was 90 foot above the original Trinity channel is now outside the levees and in between the east levee and Industrial Blvd and the original channel there is now part of the storm water reservoir for the Cadiz Pump Station. The iron span of the Oak Cliff Pike / Grand Ave / Zang Blvd was also outside the levee but remained in place many years after the levees were built, isolated from its roadway and serving as a base for advertising signs.

    Union Station and the adjacent Railway Express Agency were built after the Dallas-Oak Cliff Viaduct was completed and the viaduct was designed to cross over the Santa Fe and MKT RR while the earlier pike crossed the tracks at grade level. Also visible a little farther west of the viaduct in the 1930 aerial photo is the turning y for the passenger trains. Its use was disrupted by the construction of Stemmons Freeway and the Dallas Fort Worth Turnpike in the 1950s but remnants are still visible in ca 1970 photos then eradicated by the construction of Reunion Tower and Arena.

    M C

  7. #7
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Great info, mctoyer - welcome to the forum!
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    M C Toyer
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    Thanks Robert - Been lurking quite a while.

    Here's some photos to accompany my post above:



    ca 1912




    ca 1915 - Houston Street in center, running south




    ca 1960




    M C
    Last edited by mctoyer; 27 October 2010 at 07:27 PM.

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    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    I wish they would extend the wide sidewalk that currently exists to Riverfront and make it a bike path. Reinstalling the missing lights (only every other light still remains) would help make it safer for bicycles crossing at night.

    What's the best layout for the bridge today (since it is in one-way operation) if new streetcar tracks are installed on a structure that was meant for two-way operation?


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    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    I believed we have absolutely proved that the Houston Street Viaduct curve has always been there.

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    M C Toyer
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    Here are two more postcard views.

    The first, probably dating from just after the viaduct was completed, shows a closeup of the curve, the railroad control tower which was elevated to view over the viaduct, the tracks beneath the viaduct, and the old pike across the bottoms just to the right.





    The second dates about 1920. The tall smokestack right before the curve is for the power house for Union Station which was completed in mid 1916. Just in front of the viaduct is the turning y. At the very bottom center and right you can see the approach to the concrete 1917 Commerce Street Bridge which replaced the two ca 1890 iron spans seen in most of the 1908 flood photos. The red brick buildings just south of the bridge approach were demolished about 1936/37 and replaced by the U S Post Office Annex. On the left side of Houston Street directly across from Union Station you can see the Hotel Jefferson, and at lower left the parapets of the Dallas County Courthouse (Old Red) from which the photo was taken.




    The 1917 Commerce Street bridge was elevated to cross over the railroad tracks and the Trinity River but then the roadway quickly descended to cross the bottoms and on to West Dallas and was subject to flooding.

    The construction of the levees and Trinity Diversion Channel in 1928-30 was accompanied by four additional viaducts; Corinth, Cadiz, Commerce, and Continental (originally named Lamar-McKinney), and fifth viaduct was built between Irving and Dallas but it has since been replaced.

    It took 3-4 additional years to complete the roadway approaches on the Dallas viaducts and that included railroad underpasses at Cadiz, Corinth, Lamar, and the triple underpass at Commerce-Main-Elm.


    M C

  12. #12
    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron
    I believed we have absolutely proved that the Houston Street Viaduct curve has always been there.
    And with a ton of awesome additional info, to boot. Those pictures are great!

    I guess the Mixmaster looked pretty visionary in 1960, when Central Expressway still had "six-inch mountable curbs" as a design feature.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Houston Street bridge engineer's photo archive offers window into Dallas' past
    08:56 AM CST on Sunday, November 21, 2010
    By ROY APPLETON / The Dallas Morning News
    rappleton@dallasnews.com
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...s.3cee55e.html

    A recent story in The Dallas Morning News about the building of the Houston Street Viaduct has turned up some bridges to the past.

    Ernest L. Myers, a young Kansas-bred civil engineer, came to Dallas a century ago to work on the project. He would start a business, settle in and over time change the local landscape beyond the Trinity River's Houston Street crossing.

    Myers wasn't included in last month's account of the viaduct. And that disappointed members of his family, who, for the record, want to share photographs, maps, reports and more from the engineer's files with the Dallas Public Library.

    "I hope it will help people doing historical research on Dallas, anybody interested in Dallas history," said his granddaughter Mindy Dague.

    Dague's grandfather went into business with Edward N. Noyes, another engineer on the Houston Street bridge project. Myers & Noyes and later Myers, Noyes & Forrest were the engineers of record for the levee-building Trinity River reclamation project of the 1920s and 1930s.

    Myers was supervising engineer for construction of the Love Field military aviation camp in 1917. He collaborated on a feasibility study of navigating the Trinity from Fort Worth to the Gulf of Mexico . His firm's other projects included construction of Fair Park Stadium, renamed the Cotton Bowl; the building of Dallas Hall and athletic fields at Southern Methodist University; and development of streets and sewers for University Park.

    Myers retired in 1953 and died eight years later at age 78, after a career that included leadership positions in his profession and membership in the Texas Academy of Science, Texas Historical Society and Highland Park Presbyterian Church.

    "He was a very humble man who took a lot of engineers under his wing," Dague said. "He wasn't the type to blow his own horn."

    So his son Lindley Myers, daughters Mary Beth Griffin and Pat Polk, and Dague are doing what they can to keep the remnants of his work alive.

    The photographs offered to the library include aerial shots of the Trinity near downtown Dallas before and after the levees, some of which are labeled Fairchild Aerial Survey Inc. There are photos of the 1908 Trinity flood that led to the building of the Houston Street bridge, some credited in handwriting to J.W. Ard.

    Photos show the bridge during and after construction. Others show some of the first streets at the SMU campus and construction of Fair Park Stadium. A hand-drawn map lays out the levee project, including names of affected property owners.

    "There are some things I'm looking forward to seeing," said Carol Roark, manager of special collections for the library's Texas/Dallas History & Archives Division.

    Roark has seen and is particularly interested in the aerial photos of the levee project and city development along the Trinity in the 1920s and '30s.

    "It really helps people look back and understand the power of the river and what it offers to the city," she said.

    "Each [image] is a specific point of view in a particular point in time," said Roark, who manages a collection of more than 1 million photographs.

    And each addition to the historical record helps researchers fill in blanks and better understand the past, she said.

    "There are probably people with a lot of photos in their closet right now," Dague said. "It's important to get it out and let people have access to it.

    "I'm going to give her the box and let her decide what she wants," she said of Roark, who welcomes such sharing.

    "If people have interesting pictures of Dallas, we'd love to see them," she said.



    PHOTO GALLERY: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...10_old_dallas/

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    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Happy 100th!

    A century ago, Dallas celebrated another landmark Trinity bridge
    By ROY APPLETON Staff Writer rappleton@dallasnews.com
    Published: 21 February 2012 11:43 PM
    http://www.dallasnews.com/news/marga...ty-bridge.ece#

    A towering white arch and a web of cables will be the backdrop next month when the city celebrates completion of the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge.

    A century ago today, Dallas opened another span over the Trinity River, one that may lack the newcomer’s ethereal form but served a more critical function from the start.

    In May 1908, Trinity floodwaters swept away or swamped all Dallas bridges, cutting off downtown from areas west. Leaders called for a dependable, flood-proof river crossing, and voters approved a $600,000 bond issue to prove the emerging city meant business.

    On Feb. 22, 1912, the Dallas-Oak Cliff Viaduct, known today as the Houston Street bridge, was presented with pomp, pride and pigeons.

    ...

    Designed by Ira G. Hedrick of Kansas City, Mo., the bridge includes piers, trestles, girders and 51 arches, all made of steel-reinforced concrete. All erected in just over a year.

    A 100-foot-long girder was laid 90 feet above the river channel in case the Trinity became navigable from Dallas to the Gulf of Mexico. Today that part of the bridge stands outside the river levee, close to Riverfront Boulevard, proof of how far the Trinity has moved.

    ...

    Just as city leaders expect the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge to draw tourists and stimulate economic development, the Houston bridge was a selling point early on, prime for postcards and chamber of commerce views of the city. Still is.

    “The designers understood the importance of experiencing the bridge itself and of experiencing the travel across it,” Quimby said. “They did not see this as a purely functional engineering solution.”

    While promoters talk about the Hill span as a bridge to the future, so is the Houston Street crossing.

    It was built to support streetcars. They will finally arrive with the new line between downtown and Oak Cliff. A first run is targeted for late 2014.

    No word yet about a streetcar celebration, no word on a parade or pigeons.

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    they should put streetcars on it. straight from downtown/union station/convention center to Bishop Artz

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    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    I think whats sad is how little the city cares for the bridge. The bridge really is quite a marvel and has lots of character unlike the standard freeway bridges we see built today but still many of the lights on this and the other historical viaduct bridges are usually half working due to the wiring being decades out of date and the fixtures tend to be left without any maintenance except a quick patch of paint when graffiti shows up. Since the Oak Cliff streetcar line will soon be crossing the river on the Houston Viaduct I am hoping the city will be forced to pay attention due to more people traversing the bridge on the streetcar which i'm sure the council will be showing off all they can as proof of a re-emerging city center.

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    Mid-Rise Member txdore's Avatar
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    Interesting contrast, the viaduct was celebrated as an functional engineering feat - to keep Dallas and OC connected even during a flood. Now the MHH bridge is celebrated for it's artistic qualities , not it's functional uses. Especially considering some called it the bridge to nowhere (which I don't agree with since I have visited WD since childhood.)

    I would think Houston and Continental will get more interest with the trolley and trinity park than when they were only traversing a drainage ditch.

    Does the viaduct have any historical marker/designation? The argument can definitely be made.
    What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?
    Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets.

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    Skyscraper Member gshelton91's Avatar
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    they are planning to spend a lot of money to turn the Continintal bridge to a park... i wonder if they plan to paint it white or leave it natural ?

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    ....
    Last edited by downtownguy25; 20 February 2014 at 11:58 AM.

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    Mid-Rise Member txdore's Avatar
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    I know when I lived in OC, I would make use of it. But I doubt many outside of WDallas and North OC will use it regularly.
    What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?
    Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets.

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    Sea™ CTroyMathis's Avatar
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    Ciclovia de Dallas today.
    Now some talk about it possibly going car-free permanently:
    http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/a...cars-on-t.html

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    Super Moderator Speedbump Joey's Avatar
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    Not a bad idea.

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    Supertall Skyscraper Member NThomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTroyMathis View Post
    Ciclovia de Dallas today.
    Now some talk about it possibly going car-free permanently:
    http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/a...cars-on-t.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Speedbump Joey View Post
    Not a bad idea.
    Considering there's a proposal to replace the existing Jefferson Street Bridge with a two-way 6 lane bridge, a second viaduct park could certainly be in Dallas' future. Unlike the Continental Street Viaduct, this one could have Founder's Park as the southern terminus. Marsalis Ave could end at 1st Street and Zang at Greenbriar Lane and Founder's Park would just open up right into the viaduct.

  24. #24
    The way it go Rangers100's Avatar
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    Good times out there today. Great event.



    Also, bike lanes: they're not rocket science:


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    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    The streetcar will soon take two lanes from this four lane bridge. One for the streetcar itself, and another for a 10 feet wide walkway. That would leave two lanes (either in one way for now or both ways in the future configuration) for regular traffic.
    Personally, if the Oak Cliff streetcar was extended further into Oak Cliff, I would prefer using two of the four lanes for a double track streetcar line on this bridge, with the remaining two lanes for 10 feet wide walkways. Once the streetcar line is double tracked, those lanes could be shared with regular traffic because the wrong way operation of the streetcar would be eliminated. But that's looking far into the future, but that's my ultimate dream for this bridge. I just don't ever see the need to completely eliminate regular traffic as long as we plan to run streetcars on it.
    Last edited by electricron; 15 April 2012 at 01:36 PM.

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    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by electricron
    The streetcar will soon take two lanes from this four lane bridge. One for the streetcar itself, and another for a 10 feet wide walkway. That would leave two lanes (either in one way for now or both ways in the future configuration) for regular traffic.
    Personally, if the Oak Cliff streetcar was extended further into Oak Cliff, I would prefer using two of the four lanes for a double track streetcar line on this bridge, with the remaining two lanes for 10 feet wide walkways. Once the streetcar line is double tracked, those lanes could be shared with regular traffic because the wrong way operation of the streetcar would be eliminated. But that's looking far into the future, but that's my ultimate dream for this bridge. I just don't ever see the need to completely eliminate regular traffic as long as we plan to run streetcars on it.
    TXDot seems to think replacing the Jefferson bridge with a two way bridge negating the need for a roadway on the Houston Street Viaduct is good plan so imagine its likely to find funding for the project with the city's support.

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    Mid-Rise Member txdore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyeagle05 View Post
    TXDot seems to think replacing the Jefferson bridge with a two way bridge negating the need for a roadway on the Houston Street Viaduct is good plan so imagine its likely to find funding for the project with the city's support.
    What state designation does Jefferson or Houston have that gives Txdot jurisdiction?
    Last edited by cowboyeagle05; 16 April 2012 at 01:54 PM.
    What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?
    Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets.

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    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    I have no idea but its posted here that they are studying this option. http://trinityrivercorridor.org/tran...on-bridge.html

    Jefferson Bridge

    In the planning stage, TxDOT is considering the replacement of the Jefferson Street Bridge with a six lane two way bridge. It this new bridge is built, it will provide a direct connection to IH-35E. The existing bridge and traffic interchange at Zang Boulevard would will be demolished within the realignment plans. This design is in a schematic phase at this time. No schedules or funding is currently identified.
    There is no real funding for the project yet but if the city agrees they could pursue all kinds of funding for a smaller project like this one with enough support.

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    Sea™ CTroyMathis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by txdore View Post
    What state designation does Jefferson or Houston have that gives Txdot jurisdiction?
    Is it 354 for Jefferson?

  30. #30
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    So it appears that its official they are planning to keep Houston Viaduct closed to cars if they don't get any major complaints from the neighborhood. APparently they will eventually redo Jefferson Bridge entirely as a 6 lane bridge with maybe some bike lanes and sidewalks later on.

    http://oakcliffblog.dallasnews.com/a...ting-on-c.html

    ...The Houston Street bridge between Oak Cliff and downtown will close to cars and trucks early next year for construction of the streetcar project.

    As an alternative, the city plans to turn the nearby Jefferson Boulevard bridge into a two-way route, handling traffic thusly: Oak Cliff-bound vehicles will exit at the current Marsalis Avenue ramp toward Colorado Boulevard, and traffic to downtown will connect with the bridge via Jefferson Boulevard...

    ...Keith Manoy, the city's transportation planner, says he will present the routing plan at a public meeting(s) in Oak Cliff in the next few months. (Details to come). He'll also check the people's pulse on permanently closing the Houston bridge to all but bicycles, pedestrians, skaters, etc. plus the street car, which is supposed to start service in October 2014....

    ...After the Houston bridge closes, "that's probably the way it will stay until the Jefferson Memorial Bridge is built," Manoy said.

  31. #31
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    I also found this bit of interesting info doing a little bit of googling of the Jefferson Memorial Bridge...

    http://www.nctcog.org/trans/mtp/2030/maps/25.pdf


    The Jefferson-Memorial Connector is a proposed bridge over the Trinity River that connects Jefferson Street in Oak Cliff to Memorial Drive in the Dallas Central Business District. This project would demolish the existing 1-way northbound Jefferson Street bridge, and build a new 2-way, 6-lane bridge slightly downstream. The new bridge would have both northbound and southbound connections to/from the proposed Trinity Parkway, as well as highspeed direct connections to both the general purpose lanes and the reversible HOV/Managed lanes of IH 35E south of Colorado Boulevard. The new bridge would also enable the conversion of the historic Houston Street viaduct to a 2-way operation with one lane in each direction and expanded bicycle/pedestrian accommodations. It is expected that this project will greatly improve access to/from downtown Dallas, particularly in the area around the Dallas Convention Center, and this linkage will become an especially important alternate route during construction of the IH 35E bridge and IH 30/IH 35E mixmaster as a result of Project Pegasus. The proposed Jefferson-Memorial connector is expected to be open to traffic by year 2015. The Texas Department of Transportation – Dallas District will be the responsible agency for this project.
    The weird part is Memorial Drive is that little road that is underneath the Jefferson bridge as it passes near the parking garage from the former Reunion Arena. Right now the Jefferson bridge connects to Market Street on the CBD side why would they call it Jefferson Memorial bridge and describe as connecting to Memorial drive when it hasn't connected to Memorial street in decades?

  32. #32
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    ^ Interesting observation. It makes sense because Memorial Drive is already a major street with good access to the CBD. It's too bad they can't depress the freeways and keep Memorial Drive at Ground level for a connection to Riverfront. And it looks like the new bridge would add a few more ramps on the Oak Cliff side.

    alterntive%25203c%2520with%2520MM%2520bridge%2520rendering-thumb-620x479-139082%20%28Small%29.jpeg

  33. #33
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Well well apparently this project is moving forward its already in a presentation presented to the Southern Sector and the Oak Cliff Chamber. More info about the presentation here. http://oakcliff.bubblelife.com/v/355100/569U4

    Apparently the Jefferson Memorial Bridge has already received engineering/planning work its mostly up to funding its construction now. Notice the drawing is also updated to no longer show the Trinity Tollway connected to the Houston Street Viaduct which would become pedestrian/streetcar only. Also notice their plan is to direct traffic across the bridge and then create flyover ramps that will fly over the ground level Jefferson Blvd to reach both sides of I-35 for exit and entry ramps. That's the part I am concerned about with they are creating even more ramps to further divide the neighborhood.

    One more thing the drawing shows that the red part of the bridge could be a "Signature" design is this them trying to find another bridge for Santiago Calatrava to design so we can still have three Calatrava Bridges?



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  34. #34
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    I have an idea. What are the biggest things in Dallas urban development right now?

    1) Taking perfectly good bridges (Continental, Houston Street) out of service and building grossly over-priced replacements adjacent to them (Hi, Marge) to span the Trinity drainage ditch.

    2) Spending ridiculous amounts of money to build parks over highways.

    3) Building a financially non-viable tollway in a drainage ditch.

    4) Building street car lines -- a technology that was replaced in this market 60 years ago by superior technologies -- that really don't go anywhere useful just so we can be one of the cool kids, er, I mean cities.

    5) LEDs, LEDs, LEDs.

    My idea: let's combine all these into one mega-project! Build the Trinity Parkway in the floodplain, then cover the whole thing up with a deck park that stretches levee to levee. Then have Calatrava design an aerial track to carry streetcars a hundred feet above the park. (Since no one will really be taking the streetcars anywhere we can save some money here, too, by not having to build any stations.) Finally, light the whole up with he world's largest LED light show. We can even make it energy efficient by powering the light show using solar cells that capture the light from the light show. This last part night even make Jim Schutze happy (if anything can) as a replacement for his solar-powered water taxis, which admittedly might have some issues operating under the deck park.

  35. #35
    Mid-Rise Member txdore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyeagle05 View Post
    ... Also notice their plan is to direct traffic across the bridge and then create flyover ramps that will fly over the ground level Jefferson Blvd to reach both sides of I-35 for exit and entry ramps. That's the part I am concerned about with they are creating even more ramps to further divide the neighborhood....
    Ugh.
    What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?
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  36. #36
    Mile-High Skyscraper Member rantanamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter View Post
    I have an idea. What are the biggest things in Dallas urban development right now?

    1) Taking perfectly good bridges (Continental, Houston Street) out of service and building grossly over-priced replacements adjacent to them (Hi, Marge) to span the Trinity drainage ditch.

    2) Spending ridiculous amounts of money to build parks over highways.

    3) Building a financially non-viable tollway in a drainage ditch.

    4) Building street car lines -- a technology that was replaced in this market 60 years ago by superior technologies -- that really don't go anywhere useful just so we can be one of the cool kids, er, I mean cities.

    5) LEDs, LEDs, LEDs.

    My idea: let's combine all these into one mega-project! Build the Trinity Parkway in the floodplain, then cover the whole thing up with a deck park that stretches levee to levee. Then have Calatrava design an aerial track to carry streetcars a hundred feet above the park. (Since no one will really be taking the streetcars anywhere we can save some money here, too, by not having to build any stations.) Finally, light the whole up with he world's largest LED light show. We can even make it energy efficient by powering the light show using solar cells that capture the light from the light show. This last part night even make Jim Schutze happy (if anything can) as a replacement for his solar-powered water taxis, which admittedly might have some issues operating under the deck park.
    1.) I've read nothing that said they were perfectly good bridges.

    2.) One park has been built over a highway for a decent price compared to ridiculous freeway costs

    3.) agree

    4.) Street car lines weren't replaced by superior technology. They were replaced by the technology that killed inner-cities all over the country

    5.) so they are replacing inefficient light bulbs and neon/argon systems.

    My idea. Get rid of Stemmons downtown and start buying up and tearing down low performing buildings.

  37. #37
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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  38. #38
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Update:

    http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2...xt-month.html/

    Long story short: Houston will be closed till some time in 2014, while the Jefferson Boulevard Viaduct carries its load. And that’ll entail closing various lanes from March 8 through March 11 from downtown into Oak Cliff “to restripe and create two-way access to enter and exit Downtown Dallas.”

  39. #39
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Some closer looks at the traffic plan for the Oak Cliff-downtown bridge detour
    By Roy Appleton
    10:41 am on March 5, 2013
    http://oakcliffblog.dallasnews.com/2...e-detour.html/

    Jefferson bridge: A look at changes coming now and perhaps down the road
    By Roy Appleton
    12:56 pm on March 4, 2013
    http://oakcliffblog.dallasnews.com/2...the-road.html/


  40. #40
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    I drove across this morning March 6 and I am taking wagers on how many dangerous accidents between vehicles you are going to have . From the entry at the levee out of Oak Cliff to the HOV entry there are virtually absolutely NO DIVISION LANE STRIPES ON THE ROAD. It is hard enough going one way but to have two way traffic its gonna be an accident waiting to happen. Are they going to put concrete dividers for the two lane traffic?

  41. #41
    Mid-Rise Member txdore's Avatar
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    It'll have to be restriped with reflectors.
    What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?
    Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets.

  42. #42
    Please Drive Normally. Random Traffic Guy's Avatar
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    Full restriping actually, since it will be in place a long time (not just the flappy little temp reflectors). Restriping is shown on the terminus plans linked to in the DMN blog piece. Bike lanes separated from auto lanes with yellow tubular markers.
    "Deaths on the road are to today's criminal justice system what domestic violence was in the past: as natural & inevitable as the weather."
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  43. #43
    Mid-Rise Member ericthegardener's Avatar
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    On August 20 it was announced that Houston Street Viaduct would be reopening on September 3, 2014.

    http://transportationblog.dallasnews...w-sept-3.html/

    A week later it's not reopening "for 6 months or so".

    http://transportationblog.dallasnews...-repairs.html/

    Oy vey.

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