Reply With QuoteCongrtats to those Okies for supporting rail! I wish Texas would fund some type of intercity rail. I bet if Kay Bailey was elected, we could see a system simliler to California's Amtrak system.
Our neighbors to the north are pushing to preserve the Heartland Flyer, which currently runs between Fort Worth and Oklahoma City daily, each way. In fact, rail proponents are pushing to have the line extend north to Newton, Kansas, restoring service to Edmond, OK, Ponca City, OK, Arkansas City, KS, Winfield, KS (home of the Walnut Valley Festival, and Wichita, KS -- the latter city is just south of Newton, but doesn't have rail service. I'm moderately peeved that Tulsa isn't on the list, but that would involve rehablitating a much longer stretch of freight rail.
Here are a couple of current articles, one from Oklahoma City and one from Ark City. Choice stats from the articles:
"Federal funding for the service runs out in September. The service costs $3.9 million a year to operate - the same cost as building one-quarter mile of interstate highway, Cornett said."
"... Kansas has allotted only $3 million a year for rail and that money mainly goes for rehabilitation of freight rail lines, said John Rosacker, assistant bureau chief of KDOT."
Also worth noting: additional info can be found at pro-rail site http://www.PassengerRailOK.org/
First, the Oklahoma side (quoted in a Kansas City paper):
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansas...l/11368064.htm
Posted on Mon, Apr. 11, 2005
Rail passengers rally for Heartland Flyer
TIM TALLEY
Associated Press
OKLAHOMA CITY - With money for Oklahoma's Amtrak service scheduled to run out this fall, rail passengers and municipal leaders called on state lawmakers Monday to fund rail service and extend the state's Heartland Flyer into Kansas.
Holding signs that read "Flyer 4 The Future" and "$3 a gallon? I'll take Amtrak," about 100 people rallied outside the state Capitol and urged the Legislature to expand Amtrak's passenger rail service, begun in 1999 following a 20-year absence in Oklahoma.
About 300,000 people have ridden the Heartland Flyer between Oklahoma City and Fort Worth, Texas, since the service began and ridership along the 418-mile route was up 20 percent last year, Oklahoma City Mayor Mick Cornett said.
"Let's fund the Heartland Flyer into Kansas," Cornett said as rail passengers cheered and applauded.
Federal funding for the service runs out in September. The service costs $3.9 million a year to operate - the same cost as building one-quarter mile of interstate highway, Cornett said.
"Public transportation is expensive by its very nature and it has to be subsidized," Cornett said.
Depots along the Heartland Flyer's route, including those in Norman, Purcell, Pauls Valley and Ardmore, have been revitalized since the service was launched and the Heartland Flyer has brought an estimated $29 million in economic development to the communities.
"Oklahoma has always had a relationship with the railroad," said Richard Stawicki, a member of Norman's city council.
Supporters want to extend the Heartland Flyer service north of Oklahoma City to an Amtrak junction in Newton, Kan., where it would connect to other trains to Chicago, Kansas City and the West Coast. Proposed new stops in Oklahoma include Edmond, Guthrie and Perry.
"It's a very good boost for northeastern Oklahoma. I know it would help our downtown square," said Perry Mayor Estell Emde.
"We've always supported the Heartland Flyer. What's good for one of us is good for all of us," said Guthrie Mayor Jon Gumerson.
"I think the train would be a great asset going into Kansas," said rail passenger Bennie Walker of Oklahoma City, who held a sign that read "74,000 passengers in Edmond."
"Kids love it. They like riding on trains more than they like riding in cars," Walker said.
Sen. Kenneth Corn, D-Poteau, said that with gasoline prices soaring, it makes sense to provide Oklahomans with transportation alternatives.
"This is a chance to open up opportunities," Corn said. "Let's build Oklahoma and we can do it with rail service."
Corn has authored legislation to provide $1.34 billion for road and bridge maintenance and the Heartland Flyer over the next 15 years. Gov. Brad Henry has proposed setting aside $105 million in extra revenue next year for roads and bridges and to keep the Heartland Flyer on track.
And now the Kansas view, from the Arkansas City Traveler:
http://www.arkcity.net/stories/041105/com_0003.shtml
Web posted Monday, April 11, 2005
Train backers rally to keep rails
By FOSS FARRAR
Traveler Staff Writer
Passenger rail is alive and well in Oklahoma -- at least for the next five months. Heartland Flyer proponents planned a late-morning rally today to continue support of the popular rail service.
The mayor of Oklahoma City was to be the keynote speaker at the rally on the steps of the Oklahoma state capitol. It is aimed at getting Oklahoma state legislators to continue financial support of the passenger rail service between Oklahoma City and Fort Worth. The service may be discontinued on Oct. 1 if Oklahoma fails to fund the operation.
One of the goals of Heartland Flyer proponents is to expand the Amtrak service north from Oklahoma City to Newton, Kan. If that happens, passenger rail service could come back to Arkansas City.
But Kansas Department of Transportation officials said today that there is no money to fund such an expansion, now or in the foreseeable future.
"My understanding is there hasn't been any conversation (between Kansas and Oklahoma on the expansion) for the last two or three years," Steve Swartz, public information officer for KDOT, said recently.
With the help of an initial $23 million federal tax rebate for Oklahoma, the Heartland Flyer began service in 1999. Projections then were for 25,000 ticket sales per year, but annual sales grew to more than double that number. Actual six-year figures show that the train annually averages 54,000 tickets sold.
But Kansas has allotted only $3 million a year for rail and that money mainly goes for rehabilitation of freight rail lines, said John Rosacker, assistant bureau chief of KDOT.
"It's going to take $20 million to $30 million dollars to extend (the Heartland Flyer) from Oklahoma City, and that's just to get the track in condition for passenger trains," Rosacker said today. "Passenger rail requires much better facilities than freight."
In 2000, the Oklahoma Department of Transportation introduced plans to expand the Heartland Flyer service north to Kansas to connect with the Chicago-to-Los Angeles Southwest Chief.
"PassengerRailOk.org believes that to allow discontinuance and further to ignore passenger rail expansions to make greater use of this important transportation alternative will be a tragedy," said Evan Stair executive director of the organization. " With the increasing cost of fuel, Oklahoma and Kansas residents, visitors, and our transportation dependent economies will require alternative forms of transportation such as this in the years to come."
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Congrtats to those Okies for supporting rail! I wish Texas would fund some type of intercity rail. I bet if Kay Bailey was elected, we could see a system simliler to California's Amtrak system.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
Well actually the big issue here in Ok City is light rail.
The proposed expansion/relocation of the new I 40 (Crosstown Expressway) that runs through the south side of Downtown will destroy a magnificent rail yard--one that we will need when we finish our previous plans to build light rail. In fact, a few streets in Bricktown were originally engineered to hold light rail lines...
Now, light rail will cost us twice as much if we destroy this magnificent rail yard. Would that be good?
In fact, many people at OKCTalk.com believe the city is ready for something right now, and it probably is.
The Hearltand Flyer (that links OKC to Dallas and other region cities) is just a blow to the city's hopes of getting light rail sooner than later.
Probably trying to keep light rail from being built and building a freeway over its planned route has some connection. Those politicians are mighty sneaky.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
Well. Actually this is not Tulsa--but yes, very true. Don't trust them with anything.
The current mayor (who claims to be in favor of the Heartland Flyer) likes to think that OKC can't support light rail (complete bull) and that the current rail yard that would be demolished for the planned Walker Avenue intersection on the planned I 40 route, is as useless as hopes and facts.
Ok wait, don't the railroads get any say so in this? A rail yard is a THE port of entry for commercial railroads. Havnt they been fighting this?Originally Posted by Golden Eagle
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
I understand a portion of the rail road is owned and controlled by ODOT.
So you're saying that the OKC pols are pitting inter-city rail against intra-city rail? With the public transit proponents fighting each other, the highways have no opposition. It sound like a divide-and-conquer strategy designed by the roadbuilders!
Look at the model we're trying to build up in D/FW. A visitor from OKC can arrive in FW, ride the Trinity Railway Express to Dallas, get anywhere interesting on the Light Rail system, and even continue on to Chicago if they had a mind to. All without even a rental car, and that's with today's woefully limited infrastructure. If OKC had a light rail system, I could do the same thing, in reverse. As fun as it is to drive my TDI Beetle on a road trip, it doesn't hold the rest of the family without strapping the 8-year-old to the roof... get the price point for 5 people on the Flyer down, have a way to get around town, and we'd visit OKC (and Tulsa) on a regular basis.
Speaking of Tulsa, I left after high school, before my sense of public policy had fully developed. How did Tulsa become the wrong end of the "don't trust them with anything" yardstick?
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
i was in tulsa last weekend for the ISAS high school arts festival... the entire 'urban area' if you can call it that reminded me of some demented 1970s future fantasy world. Some very nice houses on the hills and such, though.
Where was the ISAS arts festival this year -- Cascia Hall, or Holland Hall? I attended Holland Hall -- would have been class of '85, if I hadn't spent the 83-84 school year trying mightily to fail English, and succeeding. That's how I ended up graduating from Hominy High School. Go Bucks!
I'm guessing it was at HH, because it doesn't sound like you spent much time north of 71st Street. The neighborhood just south and east of downtown, which picked up the name "Cherry Street" after I left, is full of beautiful 2-story Victorian-style homes (I may be wrong on the style name, but they're beautiful anyway). The Utica Square neighborhood (where Cascia is) has retained much of its charm, and the ultra-pricey neighborhood to the south (around the Philbrook Museum) would put to shame Highland Park (or Kessler Park, which I'd prefer to be compared to any day). And the north side... well, it's about as blighted as ever in spots, but still a nice place a la Oak Cliff.
But yeah, by the time you get to 71st, you may as well be in Plano.
um... Amtrak, railroads, Oklahoma, Route 66. Is that enough to say we're still on-topic?
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
This may be where I am confused. I think people here are talking about connecting a lot of the light rail at Union station in Downtown OKC, which would be practically destroyed if we destroy it's rail yard, which would be a waste of billions of dollars b/c we can use it for light rail--understand?
Since OKC completed MAPS, and OKC has moved ahead of Tulsa for the first time ever. Actually, the tables have really turned. It used to be that there was state funding for whatever Tulsa wanted--and OKC was just told to wait a couple years, and now that OKC's every wish is completed the ODOT/ODOE/ODOH funding Tulsan politicians are doing zip about it, besides the salary raise that LaFortune just got passed somehow.speaking of Tulsa, I left after high school, before my sense of public policy had fully developed. How did Tulsa become the wrong end of the "don't trust them with anything" yardstick?
Corruption is in the air everywhere you go in Tulsa, and until the recent growth becomes more substantial, it will be like that.
I always thought Holland Hall was substandard. Meet a former Commando student. In fact my email is even CommandoDave...Where was the ISAS arts festival this year -- Cascia Hall, or Holland Hall? I attended Holland Hall -- would have been class of '85, if I hadn't spent the 83-84 school year trying mightily to fail English, and succeeding. That's how I ended up graduating from Hominy High School. Go Bucks!
The north side rennaisance has begun--and besides, not all of it was ever all blight. Think about the neighborhood around the Gilcrease, which could also put to shame the Park Cities. I think the style you mentioned is actually Queen Anne. Though Utica Square (Last I heard they became home to Oklahoma's first, soon to be of two, Saks location) is actually Victorian straight down to the clock tower overlooking 21st Street.I'm guessing it was at HH, because it doesn't sound like you spent much time north of 71st Street. The neighborhood just south and east of downtown, which picked up the name "Cherry Street" after I left, is full of beautiful 2-story Victorian-style homes (I may be wrong on the style name, but they're beautiful anyway). The Utica Square neighborhood (where Cascia is) has retained much of its charm, and the ultra-pricey neighborhood to the south (around the Philbrook Museum) would put to shame Highland Park (or Kessler Park, which I'd prefer to be compared to any day). And the north side... well, it's about as blighted as ever in spots, but still a nice place a la Oak Cliff.
The Inner West side of town is a wash of north and south, the area around U of Tulsa (Somehow the Princeton Review ranked them as a first tier college, while OU and UT are third, and my ORU is unranked!) is pretty tony, but some parts by the old Schusterman Memorial Park is 20s suburb gone wrong with blight and decay, marked with hillbillies allover it.
God almighty--this thread is proof we need more Oklahoma threads, LOL.
CTroy, if you feel up to it you could split this thread to keep it on topic.
Last edited by Golden Eagle; 13 April 2005 at 06:58 PM.
robertb, it was indeed at holland hall. AMAZING stage; i heard it also serves as the city performing arts center or something like that? anyway, doing fiddler on the roof on that stage would have been amazing, if our production didn't fall apart (i was motel, and i flew off of the well during "miracle of miracles", really hurting my leg before spinning and bounding back up again just in time to start the second verse). but the rest of it was kind of cramped, we all felt. I really like the area between the chaple and the high school, though, with all the steps. that was a great place to hang out.
i wonder what of that which i mentioned was there when you attended?
I think the Chapel is new. I don't recall anything approaching an amazing stage, so I bet that's new as well.
The middle school opened in '83 or '84, I think, not long before I made my ignomious exit. The old middle school -- originally the entire campus -- was located not far from Cascia, in a very nice neighborhood. When they moved, they sold the property to a developer, to the chagrin of former (and current) students. Hard to argue with the decision, though -- they made a mint, and the old school didn't have much going for it from a historical or architectural perspective. But it means I can't ever go back to the field where, in 1981, the coach had us sit in the bleachers to tell us that Presidident Reagan had been shot -- my first "where I was when it happened" moment.
obOnTopic: An early '80s plan for a Tulsa Monorail had the line running along 81st Street. It would have been a great way to get to Woodland Hills Mall after school!
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
A Monorail? How disney world.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
81st Street?
1980s? That would have been dumb. Eve ntoday 81st Street is just a long drag of hills, churches, and apartments. You must have meant 71st Street, b/c Woodland Hills is actually on 71st Street.
Speaking of Woodland Hills, they might be getting a Macy's there.
Even 71st Street would have been a stretch then, despite the presence of Woodland Hills (which used to be near Woodlands and visible Hills). I have no idea how far along the planning got -- I wasn't savvy enough to distinguish realistic vs. blue-sky. But the highways marked on the maps at the same time came to fruition, and then some. Hmmm...
And I remember when Sanger-Harris came to town. Actually, my folks had to convince me that it wasn't already there, because I had a strong memory of a Sanger-Harris in Tulsa. Best I can figure, it was either an eerie gift of prescience, or else (more likely) I was remembering from early childhood memories of D/FW, where my grandmother lived.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
This could mean a big change in Texas passenger rail policy. Lets hope for more state supported trains or an extesion of the flyer to Houston.Okla., Texas Agree To Share Heartland Flyer Cost
(AP) Oklahoma and Texas state officials have agreed to share the cost of funding an already-established rail service between Oklahoma City and Fort Worth.
The Heartland Flyer, operated by Amtrak, costs $4 million annually to operate. Federal funds for the route are ending, and the Oklahoma Legislature last year approved $2 million a year in funding.
Oklahoma Transportation Secretary Phil Tomlinson says Texas transportation officials agreed this week to share the cost of the Heartland Flyer.
The Heartland Flyer began operating in June 1999, ending Oklahoma's 20-year drought of passenger rail service.
Joe Kyle, the manager of the rail programs division of the state Transportation Department, said the Heartland Flyer averages 60,000 - 62,000 passengers a year.
(© 2006 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.)
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
An extension to Houston, with a stop in Dallas, would be a commonsense step to take... especially if the State of Texas is now getting into the Amtrak subsidy business.
Don't forget to run it up to Tulsa, too, restoring service to several communties along old Route 66. Then, market the line as a retro vacation destination in itself! Make it a week-long trip, spending a night at a picturesque Bed & Breakfast at each stop.
As for Dallas, that might be tricky -- remember how the rail buffs keep telling us how crowded that freight corridor is. But I don't see why Amtrak doesn't run along the Trinity Railway Express line. It's in the process of being double-tracked and doesn't have so much fast freight. Since the tracks are owned by the cities of Dallas and FW (according to this link), it should be an easy negotiation.
But yeah, once you get to Dallas, you're all lined up to get to Houston. Actually, I'd like to see the train go all the way to the beach in Galveston, across the drawbridge.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
I know that's right.
....
Last edited by Boredkid; 09 October 2006 at 08:11 PM.
Right, that's what I had in mind.
I think the original concept was that the passengers arriving in FW would transfer to the TRE for a trip to Dallas. But I think the need for a transfer is the Kiss of Death... people don't want to take the trouble... and the Heartland Flyer never developed the passenger traffic that you'd expect for a metro of 6 million people.
Since Dallas is not physically on the Heartland Flyer route map, people don't visualize it as a potential destination. So the people who would normally be interested in Dallas as a primary destination don't take the train. A seamless connection to Dallas' Union Station would improve patronage.
I understand that the train set currently stops in FW and just waits there until it is time to return to OKC that evening. There's plenty of time to take a 30 minute trip to DTD on the TRE corridor.
Yes except that even the TRE takes an hour to get from DTFW to DTD. Also Amtrak does have a train that goes to Dallas...and that takes an hour as well.
I tell everyone...I smile just because...I've got a city love...
In the future, the Heartland Flyer might have a better chance of breaking even or making a profit if routed along the DCTA tracks to the DART station in Carrollton. Then travel to Fort Worth along the Cottonbelt Line, and maybe (big daydream maybe) construct a new commuter line from the Carrollton DART Station to Union Station to Houston and Galveston.
The TRE is a local... stops every few miles, whereas the Heartland Flyer is not.
I believe that Amtrak Chicago-San Antonio currently uses the Union Pacific ROW thru Arlington, not the TRE ROW. But correct me if I'm wrong...
The actual travel time to Dallas would be faster if the Heartland Flyer stopped for a few minutes in DTFW and immediately continued on to Dallas nonstop, versus forcing a passenger to get out, retrieve personal baggage, wait for the TRE, put personal baggage on TRE, compete with commuters for a seat, wait for the train to stop at every podunk station, etc.
But what is worse is the inconvenience. It may be relatively minor, compared to having to walk to Dallas, for example, but people will avoid the Heartland Flyer over a seemingly minor inconvenience. Or they may decide that the hassle of getting out, schlepping baggage by hand, waiting 45 minutes, etc., is not minor enough. Hello, Southwest Airlines!
I used to trap and manipulate bosses of mine by invoking some minor inconvenience... theirs, not mine. It's easy enough to tell me to do some onerous chore, but if I ask for a written explanation, 40 - 50 words, documenting it, the minor inconvenience of having to write it out means that the chore is somehow not so important after all. Of course, I had to be subtle, and avoid presenting the situation as a conflict of wills. Absent that, however, the guy's basic laziness takes over his behavior.
And thusly, a similar psychological phenomenon short circuits the willingness to travel from OKC to Dallas on the Heartland Flyer.
Last edited by aceplace; 02 October 2006 at 02:36 PM.
Plans in motion for possible train stop
Krum angles for future Amtrak station downtown
07:06 AM CST on Friday, February 1, 2008
By Peggy Heinkel-Wolfe / Staff Writer
http://www.dentonrc.com/sharedconten....7a82a00e.html
KRUM — The Heartland Flyer streaks through Denton County twice a day, once heading north and once south, without any scheduled stops between Fort Worth and Gainesville.
Some hope to change that, and they’re busy trying to figure out how to put out the welcome mat for an Amtrak rail station in Krum.
Residents who got wind of a possible Heartland Flyer stop in their city had already expressed their excitement and approval to the Krum City Council last year, so the initiative was under way before Jack Smith took over as city administrator, he said.
While other cities might see a rail stop as a disruption, that wouldn’t be the case in Krum, where the proposed station would stop the train right in downtown, Smith said.
One possible site for the stop already has a concrete pad next to the rail line.
“The location is perfect for us,” Smith said. “People would have the opportunity to get on or off the train, shop or walk around town, before heading on to Fort Worth or Gainesville.”
But first the city must finish a letter to the Texas Department of Transportation, which it plans to write jointly with Denton city and county officials, in order to formally invite Amtrak to make the stop and find out what the next step would be.
That letter is likely to be sent in the next week or two, according to Mark Nelson, Denton’s director of transportation. Nelson has been inching the idea along for more than a year, after studying how to improve transportation alternatives for the area.
The idea cleared an important hurdle when local officials got the support of transportation officials at the North Central Texas Council of Governments in August, which was followed with letters in December and January, Nelson said. The council’s support will include help getting ridership numbers together, although Nelson downplayed the importance of that data over the need for getting broad local support for the stop or station.
“We’ve got all the local governments on board, pardon the pun,” Nelson said.
Since the Texas Department of Transportation subsidizes Amtrak’s Heartland Flyer route in Texas, it’s up to TxDOT to say what would be expected of the cities to make the station a reality, according to Smith.
“Right now, we’re scratching to know what needs to be done,” Smith said.
Neither Smith nor Nelson knows how long it might be before a stop or station could arrive in Krum.
The initiative is far enough along that serious discussions can begin, Nelson said. The parties must figure out what Burlington Northern Santa Fe, which shares the line with Amtrak, can live with, and how to encourage train charters for special events, such as the annual Texas-Oklahoma football game and races at Texas Motor Speedway.
“We’re past the concept stage, and are starting to flesh this out,” Nelson said.
PEGGY HEINKEL-WOLFE can be reached at 940-566-6881. Her e-mail address is pheinkel-wolfe@dentonrc.com .
Sounds like this says while the train is stopped people will get off, go shopping, then get back on. Good luck as I don't think Amtrak will stop for more than 60 seconds at a town like this.“The location is perfect for us,” Smith said. “People would have the opportunity to get on or off the train, shop or walk around town, before heading on to Fort Worth or Gainesville.”
Good idea, but Fort Worth is a maintenance base for Amtrak and has a yard to store and switch cars. Dallas doesn't have much room or any to store a train. Plus I think plans lay in place for extension to San Antonio for Heartland Flyer making a morning train reverse of the Texas Eagle. There's also talk of extending it north to Wichita and Newton to connect with the Southwest Chief. And Missouri also wants a train from St Louis to Springfield, Tulsa and Oklahoma City too. I guess there's several ways to work the system. All three can be extended south to San Antonio and/or Houston, going several times a day! Yes I'm starting to dream.The actual travel time to Dallas would be faster if the Heartland Flyer stopped for a few minutes in DTFW and immediately continued on to Dallas nonstop, versus forcing a passenger to get out, retrieve personal baggage, wait for the TRE, put personal baggage on TRE, compete with commuters for a seat, wait for the train to stop at every podunk station, etc.
I'd think a houston/New Orleans connection for the Heartland Flyer would probably get more traffic.
Maybe but, think of when you drive on 45 vs 35. Once you get out of Dallas, its open sailing to Conroe. 35 you have Waco, Temple, Killeen, Austin, San Marcos.... Well 45 might have Corsicana or Huntsville
It may be plausible to think that the DFW to San An line gets additional ridership from people traveling from and to the intermediate stops, but it is also more likely that someone traveling from Killeen to Waco would drive. The distance is drivable, and there is inadequate public transportation at both ends of the voyage.Maybe but, think of when you drive on 45 vs 35. Once you get out of Dallas, its open sailing to Conroe. 35 you have Waco, Temple, Killeen, Austin, San Marcos.... Well 45 might have Corsicana or Huntsville
A better speculation would be the additional traffic between Fort Worth, Austin and San Antonio. But once again, the Austin-San Antonio sites are much less populous than the Dallas-Housto sites, and have inferior public transportation compared to Houston and, especially, Dallas. If you add DFW airport to the mix, and a short connection from Union Station to Love Field, the case becomes even more compelling.
As has been previously mentioned, the routing would be over the TRE trackage, with a short Fort Worth stop, a short DFW airport stop, and a Dallas stop.
It may be that the opportunity to have single-seat transit from rural klahoma to DFW airport may be the most compelling revenue generator of them all.
What of the argument that a railyard and storage opportunity is present in FW but not in Union Station Dallas? But... isn't this a case of abandoning an opportunity for revenue in favor of the convenience of the crew? If necessary, send the consist back to Fort Worth, then back to Dallas, then to OKC. Or, find some other place to store the train in Dallas.
If the train were so popular that it did not require a subsidy, then it could afford to snub DFW airport and Dallas traffic. In practice, however, the existing subsidy may just be paying the penalty for improper utilization of a resource.
We may wonder if the assumption underlying a Fort Worth terminus of the Heartland Flyer is actually valid. Are passengers willing to debark in FW and take the TRE to Dallas?
It seems like an easy thing to test... just count the number of people doing it, for a week or two.
We may find that people are actually unwilling to transfer. Amtrak may not be informing them of the option, they may be hesitating due to unfamiliarity with a new set of ticket machines, or they may be annoyed by the whole ordeal.
So, if the management of the Heartland Flyer is unresponsive to public attitudes, and is willing to abandon a significant source of financial (and political) patronage for the sake of their own convenience... should they be compensated through a public subsidy for the lost revenue?
Amtrak does advertise the connection to Dallas via the TRE right in their national timetable. They even give DART numbers and information as well, for those going through Dallas.
But that gets equal billing with any other local bus service, doesn't it? A casual browser of the Amtrak schedule wouldn't see "all-rail transportation from OKC to DAL" -- they'd see OKC-FTW and then some sort of link to Dallas, along with the Greyhound to Weatherford or Arlington -- or Denton. At least, that's how I remember the last Amtrak schedule I looked at.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Posted on Fri, Mar. 21, 2008 10:15 PM
Kansas cities support Amtrak routes to Dallas area
By BRAD COOPER and ROBERT A. CRONKLETON
The Kansas City Star
Support is building across Kansas for new train service that would connect Kansas City to the Dallas area.
About 10 cities, including Lawrence and Emporia, are getting behind an effort to run daily Amtrak trains to Fort Worth by way of Topeka, Newton, Wichita and Oklahoma City.
And now the Kansas Department of Transportation is willing to spend between $150,000 and $200,000 to study the feasibility of the service.
The study, which will be done by Amtrak, probably will not start until this summer. It likely will not be completed until the third quarter of 2009, officials said.
The Northern Flyer Alliance, a group of civic leaders, has been lobbying aggressively for the service. It met at Kansas City’s Union Station in December to discuss the proposal.
Mark Corriston, the Kansas City director of the Northern Flyer Alliance, said the plan would bolster Kansas City’s role as a transportation hub while giving an economic boost to smaller Kansas cities.
The Amtrak proposal would introduce a new transportation dimension to Kansas, which does not offer subsidized passenger rail service, as neighboring Missouri does.
“There’s a lot more interest these days in seeing what can be done for transportation without spending a lot of money on highway improvements,” said KDOT spokesman Ron Kaufman.
The study will set up Kansas to have a serious discussion about rail service when state lawmakers embark on a new transportation plan. The current 10-year plan runs out in 2009, and the state will be faced with billions in cost for highway needs alone.
Currently, Amtrak’s Southwest Chief, which operates daily between Chicago and Los Angeles, serves the route between Kansas City and Newton and beyond, with stops in Lawrence and Topeka during the early morning hours.
The Heartland Flyer, supported by the Oklahoma and Texas transportation departments, operates daily between Fort Worth and Oklahoma City.
The study will look at a possible connection between the two routes from Newton to Oklahoma City, an extension of the Heartland Flyer to Kansas City or another new service.
“Linking the Southwest Chief route to the Heartland Flyer route at Newton and Kansas City seems to be a logical connection within Amtrak’s national system” and is worth further study and analysis, Kansas Transportation Secretary Deb Miller said in a statement.
“Before we can make any decisions about expanding passenger rail service, we need to examine a number of issues including cost, schedule and the likelihood of travel delays due to freight traffic on the line,” she said.
The Northern Flyer Alliance wants to extend Amtrak’s Heartland Flyer north from Oklahoma City through Wichita and ultimately east to Kansas City. The route begins in Fort Worth.
Corriston said the service could be an economic boon for smaller Kansas cities.
He points to tiny Strong City — population 584 — that would like to bring in tourists to see the Tallgrass Prairie National Preserve. He points to Emporia State University, which would like an easier way to bring in international students from Kansas City. He points to Topeka, which might benefit from a commuter train coming each day from Kansas City.
The alliance estimates it could cost $12.7 million a year for operations and $6.5 million in track upgrades.
The Kansas Legislature would not only have to approve money for its share of the service, but also would have to remove a constitutional restriction on using state money to supplement Amtrak.
Alex Kummant, Amtrak president and chief executive officer, said in a release that state-supported routes were the fastest growing parts of his business:
“We have carried out several studies in the Midwest and elsewhere in the last few years, with Illinois doubling the size of its state rail program since 2006 and California continuing to rack up growth that has contributed to five straight years of record Amtrak ridership.”
The state Transportation Department has received letters and petitions supporting the expansion, including from Arkansas City, Strong City, Lawrence, Winfield and Emporia.
Ridiculous.
I have been aware of this effort for some time. For Thanksgiving, I rode the train to Norman. When I arrived, the guy working on this effort. I encourage everyone to help in whatever way they can.
http://www.passengerrailok.org/
We're about twenty years late on a transportation rules and regulations spring cleaning. Every prior incentive given to promote the use of a personal vehicle should be replaced with incentives to promote public transportation. And then, of course, once people have reacquainted themselves to the benefits of mass transit, all legislative incentives are eliminated. ***sigh***
I know this is a bit off topic, but any news about the Caprock Express from Fort Worth to Denver????
I haven't heard anything about the concept, but I've travelled US 287 between DFW and Amarillo (6 hours each way) several times in the past few months. Parallel to the highway is as good a rail line as you could possibly hope for, because of coal. Massive amounts of coal are being shipped down that line -- enormous unit trains of coal, headed (I believe) from Wyoming to Houston (and then back empty).
As a result, the tracks look to be in excellent shape, and there are several sidings along the way. I would guess that the only thing needed to make the line ready for passenger service is to take the stations out of mothballs. That, and the scheduling... which is clearly not a trivial task.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
That is a major rail line along 287. It is in good shape. However I think the plan for the Caprock Express has is it going trough Abilene, Lubbock, then north to Amarillo. I know Lubbock really wants to see service. I know this route is a little more lengthy, but seems to have more populate, hitting two big college town, and a military base. I'm pretty sure the tracks are in decent shape in most place too. But again, I haven't either heard anything about this is a few years. The Heartland Flyer seems to be getting the most momentum over the last couple months.
Heartland Flyer Ridership Up
http://www.nbc5i.com/news/17256325/detail.html
The numbers look good: 40 percent more in July 08 than July 07, compared with Amtrak's systemwide ridership increase of 17% (over the past 10 months -- not sure why they don't compare apples to apples).
Almost 12,000 riders between FW and OKC, and those are people who have some way to get around once they get to their destination. Imagine what the number would be if Amtrak could invest in new infrastructure, like an Auto Train on every cross-country route.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Rather than that, imagine what the numbers could be if the Heartland Flyer just chugged an extra 35 miles east to Dallas Union Station and connected to the DART rail system.
It's no different that an airport. You use a cab or someone picks you up. The difference with a train can be as simple as walking from the depot to your hotel if you stay downtown.
I have taken the Heartland a few times and take the TRE to Fort Worth from Dallas.
Amtrak has maintenance facilities in Ft. Worth, not in Dallas. That's why the Heartland Flyer originates there. Amtrak is also required to run down Class I railroad tracks, the TRE tracks are only classified Class 3. Although occasionally the Texas Eagle uses the TRE tracks instead of the UP tracks.
As for future expansion of service for the Heartland Flyer, I vote for Houston, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Oklahoma City, Tulsa, and Kansas City.
But, that's not going to happen soon.
p.s. Amtrak can't go down the DCTA tracks from Denton to Dallas. Between Denton and Lewisville, there aren't any tracks. Presently, the tracks between Dallas and Lewisville are in so bad a shape the local DGNO railroad max speed is 10 mph.
By December 2010, there will be brand new tracks. But, at that point, DCTA will be running diesel powered light rail cars down the tracks to Carrolton from Denton and DART will be runing electric powered cars on the tracks to Carrolton from Dallas, which will not be FRA compliant. Amtrak trains are, and Federal regulations prevent running mix FTA compliant and FRA compliant trains on the same tracks.
FTA Federal Transit Agency (Buses, Vans, and Urban Rail)
FRA Federal Railway Adminstration (Intercity Passenger and Freight Rail)
Last edited by electricron; 31 August 2008 at 01:55 AM.
You might want to blame the robber barrons for this as well, a century ago. The mainlines running through Dallas are the east-west T&P Railroad and the north-south MKT thru Garland, following Hwy 69 in Oklahoma that somehow missed Tulsa and Oklahoma City on the mainline. While the other railroads had rail lines to Dallas, they were branches off of main lines that went through Fort Worth.
But Electricron is correct, currently there is no rail between Denton and Lewisville, and the line from Dallas to Lewisville is very, very slow. Thanks for DART and Denton transit, it won't be long before one can catch either commuter rail and light rail to Denton. Unfortunately, the Heartland Flyer doesn't go to Denton, it skirts west of Denton from Sanger just to the north of Denton towards Fort Worth. I am not even sure if there is a rail line from Sanger to Denton unless its KCS.
You would have thought MKT would have ran a rail line from Dennison to Dallas through McKinney following Hwy 75, but that main line ran to Greenville following Hwy 69 again, than Garland, into Dallas. There is a fairly large hill north of McKinney, and we know how the railroads avoided steep grades whenever possible a century ago.
Take the Heartland Flyer to Fort Worth, then take the Trinity River Express to Dallas. Denton county commuter rail has no plans at the moment to ever connect Denton to Sanger. With the late times of the Texas Eagle running north from San Antonio, I wouldn't wait for Amtrak to get to Dallas, I would take the T's and DART's Trinity River Express instead. Besides its much cheaper than Amtrak.
TRE is Class 3? Really? And Amtrak is relugated to Class 1?? Surely we are using different definitions. My scale goes:
"Excepted" - speeds up to 10 mph and no passenger trains
"Class 1" - freight up to 10 mph and passengers up to 15 mph
"Class 2" - freight up to 25 mph and passengers up to 30 mph
"Class 3" - freight up to 40 mph and passengers up to 60 mph
"Class 4" - freight up to 60 mph and passengers up to 80 mph
I suppose TRE might be Class 3, but I was pretty sure that the T&P Main through Arlington was Class 4. No wonder Amtrak has a hard time making schedules if they are on Class 1 track all the time.
Andy Haretip
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I thought about what I posted for awhile and it dons on me that perhaps you meant Class I Railroad and Class III Railroad instead of Class 1 track versus Class 3 track. TRE would probably qualify as something other than a Class I railroad since that designation is based on revenue. I was unaware of a requirement for Amtrak to operate solely on Class I railroads, but then again maybe I am just confused and should wait for your reply.
Andy Haretip
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You're the one that's correct. Sorry if I added to any confusion.
Still, my point is, Amtrak prefers to use Class I Railroads wherever possible.
I'm not sure of the respective dates of construction, but I imagine that the MKT's predecessors didn't build through McKinney because the Houston & Texas Central (a Southern Pacific predecessor) was already there.
I believe that at least a part of Central Expressway was built on the old Houston & Texas Central right-of-way. The later Southern Pacific ROW, situated between US75 and Greenville Av, was used for the DART Red Line north of the Mockingbird station.
Yep, it would have been a parallel line: Handbook of Texas Online
The Houston and Texas Central made the connection from Dallas to the Dennison area by 1873 where it connected with the MKT and provided the first link to the rest of the US rail network. The MKT had only started service to Dennison on Christmas Day 1872 and did not extend beyond Dennison until after 1882.
Andy Haretip
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