I feel like a recent ghost is in this forum
And you got all of that stirred up over one wrong number.Originally Posted by Lionel Hutz
I feel like a recent ghost is in this forum
^hhmmm...smells like it
That's even better, they will have a lot of development by that time. That's good news to me.
Our old friend has been risen from the dead.
He must have gone to the Master's Healing Touch Happy Ending Fun Center to be risen from the dead so quickly.
DAGNABBIT!
Stick to topic folks.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
I almost cried, that was so funny.
Back on topic: what buildings are supposed to be finished when? Is there a timeline somewhere?
"There is much to admire, but little to deplore,—many things to enchant, but few to offend,—and for the people, and their institutions, there is a splendid future, behold what you may, see what you can, believe {what you} have a mind to. . .I have given you a very reliable description of the country in which I live and am unwilling to exchange for the frozen North."
—M. J. Mathis of Dallas County, writing to friends in 1859
www.haribon.org.ph
Don't know if you guys noticed the tidbit of info about the victory tower hidden within the PricewaterhouseCoopers renewal story...I almost missed it myself. Despite what Hicks says, I can't imagine that losing out on a 131,228-sf lease doesn't push back the project even ever-so-slightly.
So which tower is this in the masterplan? The 1960s-looking double-tower building? Approximately how many stories is 550 feet?
I've bolded the tower info in the story...
Tug of War Ends for 131,228-SF Trophy Lease
By Connie Gore
Last updated: November 16, 2004 08:30am
DALLAS-Ending a yearlong tug of war, PricewaterhouseCoopers has tossed a 131,228-sf trophy lease to Trammell Crow Center instead of its primary adversary, a 400,000-sf office building on Hillwood's drawing boards for Victory. The 12-year renewal is wed to an estimated $7-million retooling of five full floors in the Arts District high-rise.
The PwC pact supposedly beds down the largest unsettled leases remaining in this year's pipeline for the Dallas CBD. Although the 10-year tenant's existing lease wasn't up until 2006 in the 1.1-million-sf trophy at 2001 Ross Ave., Crescent Real Estate Equities Co. and Hillwood have been duking it out all year.
"At the end of the day, the environment in the very heart of the Arts District would be hard to leave," Michael Lewis, Crescent's vice president of leasing, tells GlobeSt.com. "You can't reproduce buildings like Trammell Crow Center or the Crescent. …If you add the quality of Trammell Crow Center and its location, the value is not even comparable. That's what makes it a no brainer."
Still, street talk had the deal seesawing on a regular basis, with Hillwood reputed to be the financial adviser's favorite. "The real estate community's rumor mill was a little off," says Lewis, who negotiated the lease along with Kirby White, Crescent's director of leasing, and Jon McNeil and Matt Craft, Trammell Crow Co.'s senior vice president and principal, respectively. Steering talks for PWC were Carl Ewert, executive vice president for the Staubach Co., and Ann Duncan and Randall Reid with the Tampa, FL-based CLW.
"We worked long and hard on PwC," David Hicks, Hillwood's senior vice president of office development, says. "Unfortunately the timing didn't work for that tenant, who needed to be in that space by January 2007. …The only way we could have made PwC was if we could have worked out a lease extension at Trammell Crow Center."
Hicks says the loss doesn't stall the plan to deliver a 550-foot iconic tower with retail, office and residential space by mid-2007. "We're really still on the timetable we would have been on," he stresses.
The Trammell Crow Center win is a stair-stepped lease that restacks PwC's space, but essentially keeps the same bottom line. The 92%-leased high rise's quoted rent ranges from $26 per sf to $27 per sf plus electric. "We both think it's a fair deal for both parties," Craft says.
In Craft's opinion, the biggest hurdle was overcoming concerns about renovations to bring the space in line with PwC's newly adopted nationwide standards to push offices toward the interior of floors and keep windowed walls as open areas. "It's a new set of standards for their office space," he says. "Every inch of their space is going to be redone."
The retooling of floors 16, 17, 18, 21 and 22 will be done in stages and the cost, estimated to range from $6.5 million to $7.5 million, will be shared by building owner and tenant. Additional upgrades will be made to a 4,300-sf training center, which is housed in the Trammell Crow Pavilion alongside the Crow Collection of Asian Art.
Work begins in early 2005 and will take nearly a year to complete. The plan calls for vacating two floors to allow for unobstructed construction and then work begins on the other three. "Each person will only have to move once," Craft says.
That bodes well for downtown. Nobody wants to see Victory sucking tenants out of downtown. We want Victory to suck the office space out of Plano. :firegrin:
DAGNABBIT!
^ I agree. Best case scenerio to bring tennants to the 'iconic Victory tower' depends partly on all other similar office space in the CBD and uptown to be over 90% occupied. It's going to keep the agents at Hillwood busy, but every releasing in the CBD makes the Victory space more attractive and continues to keep class A+ office space options limited.
You mean California- not Plano, right?
Both, I'd hope.You mean California- not Plano, right?
Everything outside of Big D is fair game. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comYou mean California- not Plano, right?ffice
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<o
You know that Collin Co, Tarrant Co, Denton Co, etc are always recruiting tenants out of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
Good luck. There are occasional rumors of my high-tech company moving from its 1960's-era digs in Carrollton, but the possiblities never seem to get any further south than the Quorum complex in Addison -- and often range further north, to the JC Penney headquarters-in-a-field area. Apparently, much of the management lives within three miles of the current location, and if they had to drive their H2's any further they'd go bankrupt. (But they're all very nice folks!)
I'm trying to spread the word that an office in downtown Dallas is still three miles from home. Three miles to the Carrollton DART station, then you're just reading the paper for a while before you arrive at your office. I can't see why any company wouldn't pick a rail-served location over any comparable space away from rail.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Gee whillikers, didn't anyone learn from the 1950s? Cars are the future, of course!
My point is Dallas shouldn't bother competing with it's own 'burbs. Dallas can clean house when it comes to attracting firms from CA, NY, MA etc.Everything outside of Big D is fair game. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
<o
You know that Collin Co, Tarrant Co, Denton Co, etc are always recruiting tenants out of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com
The rail to Carrollton is critical for Dallas. Also, there needs to be a crosstown underground heavy rail line from Victory to Citiplace via Oaklawn.
I agree in a sense. Dallas needs to bring more money into the Metroplex or Dallas as a city, not just move the money around the metro area. Bringing companies in from out of state would have the best effect I think since people would then have to move here, more people would be hired that are local and word would get back to those peoples friends and family out of state that Dallas is great and then they'll visit, and fall in love with dallas, move here, have lots of kids, then they'll all stay here except for college, and bring all of there college friends back who then grow families, and before you know it Dallas is THE city of the "third coast"! Or am i getting ahead of myself here! lol!My point is Dallas shouldn't bother competing with it's own 'burbs. Dallas can clean house when it comes to attracting firms from CA, NY, MA etc.
Assuming you aren't just talking about 'firms,' what about dallas losing a lot of major corporations to the suburbs? CocaCola just moved to Farmers Branch, Dr Pepper & EDS are in Plano, JC Penney is in plano, Frito Lay is in Plano.. I think that Dallas SHOULD bother competing with its own burbs. They take away from the city more than they give to it, at least, IMO.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
Good idea!!! But I think would better be served by lightrail underground, more compatible with DART.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
We've actually discussed this routing in detail in another thread. Here's my conclusion, for what it's worth:
The Katy Trail alignment looks good from Cedar Springs (called SH-289 for no good reason on this map) all the way to Lemmon. But I think we're better off taking Cedar Springs on south all the way to the Downtown subway lines, instead of cutting off to north of Victory. [...]
Here's an idea: keep the existing Mockingbird-Cityplace-Downtown alignment as-is -- an express route to downtown. The Uptown Line, then, is designed as a "local" subway.
From Mockingbird Station, the Uptown Line branches off to the west, following the Katy Trail. Stations at Knox and Fitzhugh would provide better service to retail and attractions than the original Knox/Henderson Station under Central. Altogether, there would be 5-7 stations between Mockingbird and Downtown.
For the full discussion, check out the Uptown: Katy Tunnel thread. I originally proposed a cool-looking "signature" tunnel entrance in the Baby Doe's area, right into the face of the hill, but land use patterns and lack of suitable geometry argued strongly in favor of the alignment described above.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
That's what I had assumed you had in mind for this area. As dense as it is becoming, a more local train system is needed.
To get back on topic:
It appears to me, from the comments quoted below, that a number of factors went into the decision to stay at Trammel Crow. Most noticeably the following:
1. PwC likes being in the Arts District with DMA, Nasher, Crow Exhibit of Asian Art, etc. the area already has an identifiable character that PwC can appreciate. (Victory on the other hand is still in the development stage and it's more difficult to determine what the actual "environment" will be like);
2. The Victory Tower was not going to be ready anyway when PwC's lease expired; and
3. Trammel Crow appears to have offered a lot of concessions to keep PwC there, including spliting the cost of a complete renovation of 5 floors!
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
I assume PwC is indeed PriceWaterhouseCoopers?
^You got it.
does anyone have any pictures of where construction is now?
Some scraper website says Adam's Mark is around 550
The problem is that Dallas can't compete with it's own 'burbs if a company wants a suburban location.
Dallas needs to focus on firms that prefer an urban setting. Dallas lost Boeing because the urban life was not on par with Chicago.
Exactly. Some businesses you just aren't going to win over to urban locations. If the Boeing move had been now, I do wonder if there would have been at least a longer decision time because of all that Dallas offers and will offer in a short amount of time.
Dallas has plenty of suburban opportunity in the southern sector. Thats up to developers and zoning.
It's just going to take a long time.
Good point.
This means bringing white collar jobs into a blue collar residential area. What is the social impact of this?
Soical impact aside, why hasn't a Legacy/Stonebriar type development been started in the Souther Sector?
a- Access to DFW airport isn't that great?
b- City council people representing this area not willing to do what it takes? (not going to get them votes from current residents)
c- Affluent residential population needs to come first?
d- lack of colleges/universities in the southern sector?
Lets look at Legacy when it was first conceived and compare it to your points
a - What access? 121? was a tiny road back then. I'd hardly call it access,
b - I don't know if this is true or not, but the UNT Dallas area is a decent start, as is the new Railport in the W-H area
c - There was nothing, I repeat, nothing in the vicinity of Legacy. Even in the early to mid-90s when I frequented The Colony and West Plano for baseball games. There was pretty much nothing out there but EDS and JCPenney.
d - Where are these great institutions in the "That Far North" sector?
Legacy was built on possibilities and vision. There simply needs to be a similar visionary group in the southern sectore.
You're right. Legacy was nothing in the not too distant past, but some group must have pushed for that area to develop, right? Who was that group and how did they do it? What was the catalyst? (Every time I look at www.dfwinfo.com, I can't help but feel that these guys have a strong say on how DFW develops.)
a. 121- yes a tiny road, but how long has an expansion been planned? I mention this because the Colony advertised easy access to DFW back in the 1990s.
c. You might be able to enlighten us on this- Back in those days before anything was at Legacy, was West Plano affluent? (Which came first, the houses or the offices?)
d. I was thinking about UTD, the community colleges and the SMU satellite campus.
I don't think Allen and McKinney will ever have office parks like Legacy because they are too far from DFW airport. My theory is to look at the distance from DT Dallas to DFW airport, then make a radius around DFW airport with that same distance. I think that's going to be the extent of any successful large office developments in DFW.
explain the Telecom Corridor.
I think where these corporations go depends on the best deal they can get, unless they just really want to be downtown, or else travelling industries would be crowding around the airport. Preston Hollow and Preston Trail are probably bigger factors than DFW.
oh yeah, and keep this in mind, Willow Bend, King's Gate, and GlenEagles were prairies back then. The school that would become Plano West just sorta sat out there all alone. There's a park out there that just sat alone. Each year, we'd notice more homes surrounding it. EDS and JC Penney sat far far out northwest of this all alone. There was really nothing. Travel I-35 to Waxahachie. There's more development there than there was in West Plano back then.
As for Allen and McKinney, keep in mind that airport will be expanded. I'm sure Jerry knew that when he bought the land.
Funny you should mention EDS, since I was just at Legacy Town Center today for a devmeet (it's a deviantART thing) and it's gained a lot more life in the last year.
I believe EDS was the pioneer and catalyst for Legacy. Given their current "straits" it doesn't seem to have helped them...
What that means is that the city somehow -- magically? -- realized that there was going to be development out in that direction, and had the money to plan ahead for it. You don't see the Wilmer-Hutchins school district building a new high school in a cotton field "on spec".
I think this argues in favor of psukhu's option C: "Affluent residential population needs to come first?" Perhaps not affluent residential in the area, but the city has to have the funds from existing affluent residential folks to build schools and parks on spec, rather than scrambling to play catch-up.
(Now, someone *please* disagree with the point I just made, 'cause that's an awfully depressing statement for the southern tier suburbs!)
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Plano had cheap undeveloped land, safety and a decent school system.
Southern suburbs have cheap land.
DAGNABBIT!
the Southern burbs have those three things too. Its all about what someone wants to do and a perception of things south of I-30. Like I said, if someone wants to build in the southern burbs, they will. Just like the new Rail Port and mentioned middle class housing. in Hutchins. No reason you can't see the northern burbs repeated in southern Dallas County and Northern Ellis.
schools are quite good in the southern suburbs.
Just for educational purposes regarding EDS:
The EDS site was chosen because Ross Perot owned the land and wanted to build a massive campus with an enormous amount of security. The actual data system for EDS is hundreds of feet underground (or some number). He also chose to build on that particular spot in his land because it was the highest hill in Plano. You can actually see downtown Dallas from the top of the main building.
I blame close relations with Frito-Lay for the rest of the headquarters that sooned followed.
And now we have Ross Perot Jr. doing wonders with Victory. Hooray for the Perots.
Last edited by rjlevins; 22 November 2004 at 07:37 PM.
The only southern suburbs that you can't lump into the 'safety' and 'decent school system' category would be the southeast suburbs. Northern Ellis, and southwestern Dallas (sans lancaster) are basically the northern suburbs, just with well-managed growth and located in a prettier area. (There are way more hills, creeks, and forests down here..) Because development has been so slow to kick off, the cities have been able to control it very well. So, you won't see necessarily typical northern sprawl out here - even if the population is exploding, it still very much feels like a small town. Red Oak, for example, has bans on a lot of typical suburban stores that set up shop- they drove off a Wal-Mart, Outback, Chilis, and all kinds of other development so that other small-businesses could locate there.
I normally wouldn't defend a suburb, but perception of the southern side of DFW is very skewed.. at least, in these areas.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
^
Drumguy, you make a good point. Take Lake Ridge for example. Imagine down the road when that area is built out. I think that area would become prime for an upscale suburban retail/office complex. This would then lead to more suburban developments in that area. When the Bush Turnpike gets built on the southern side, this will further help the area.
I think this is another reason why the Trinity toll road will help the southern sector. Many of the higher end jobs are currently located from downtown over to Las Colinas and up to Plano. If you live south of downtown and you work north of downtown, your commute sucks. The trinity tollway may make is easier to commute from the south.
Sorry to be a grump but can we get back to Vitory please.
Sorry to be a grump but can we get back to Victory please.
Oops! Sorry for the double post! Lol
My sentiments exactly. Plano is not half as exciting as Victory!
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
50% is a little high - I'd say something like 1x10<sup>-90</sup> %.
Sorry for being such a dork.. in advance.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
Any new photos OF THE VICTORY PROJECT?
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