Reply With QuoteSeriously, do you really favor new 4 to 5 story TODs in downtown Dallas over new 40 to 50 story skyscrapers? We're talking about a new rail line through downtown Dallas, not a suburban city or neighborhood.
The Lamar Young route is also an intermediary between the Commerce and Marilla lines, so development will be spurred either way. I do think that the Marilla Convention Center line is the worst of the 4.
Also you took the 2008 cost for the B7, B4a and B4b routes but you took the 2014 YOE numbers for the Lamar Young route.
2008 numbers
$580 Million B7 Lamar Commerce 6,600
$378 Million B4 Lamar Young 8,700
$559 Million B4a Lamar Marilla (City Hall) 7,800
$612 Million B4b Lamar Marilla (Convention Center) 7,500
2014 YOE numbers
$777 Million B7 Lamar Commerce 6,600
$506 Million B4 Lamar Young 8,700
$748 Million B4a Lamar Marilla (City Hall) 7,800
$821 Million B4b Lamar Marilla (Convention Center) 7,500
Like I previously said the additional money that is not used on the Lamar Young line could be used towards any of the expansions that DART had proposed (West Dallas line, Scyene Road, etc) which could promote ridership more than any downtown alternative could. Also, Table ES-5 on page S-17 shows that the DART study found the Lamar Young route would have the "greatest TOD potential" compared to "great TOD potential" with the B4a Marilla route. Their summary is straight forward.
"At $378 million, Alternative B4 would be the least expensive and most cost effective
to construct due to the shortest tunnel with only one underground station and the
highest ridership. It would serve new transit markets and would have the greatest
potential for transit oriented development."
Page S-17
Last edited by DallasMichael; 29 July 2011 at 04:14 PM.
Seriously, do you really favor new 4 to 5 story TODs in downtown Dallas over new 40 to 50 story skyscrapers? We're talking about a new rail line through downtown Dallas, not a suburban city or neighborhood.
- we have no evidence that anyone really understands what drives transit oriented development, least of all some bureaucrat doing a report.
- no one has any money for D2 or any other major expansion. The chief engineer of future D2 project is a boy or girl sitting in 6th grade.
Nothing to worry about for several decades.
Last edited by mjblazin; 30 July 2011 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Typo
Skyscrapers are the ultimate TOD. They provide the highest density of residential and office space of any design completely conducive to public transit. Unfortunately given the economy I don't think we will see the D2 or a plethora of new skyscrapers soon, but the Museum Tower is a great start.Originally Posted by electricron
Last edited by DallasMichael; 30 July 2011 at 09:12 AM.
Semi-serious question: What about major university endowments and pension funds? They're always looking for "alternative" investment strategies (e.g. UT Austin took physical delivery of $1 billion in gold boullion a few months back) and they traditionally have long-term time horizons. Assuming there was a way to make some kind of positive ROI, wouldn't putting dollars into state- or local infrastructure be PR boost that could, in turn, make other investments (land, real estate, stocks/bonds, etc.) more valuable by extension?
You can't get a competitive ROI off the actual urban transit investment. Those entities would buy the bonds sold by the city and get tax free income. If you owned the whole downtown, then you could say it would enhance my businesses and might do it. Now only the city can reap those benefits and the benefits are very slim in taxes returned, one penny out of the almost 9 pennies in the sales tax and only 25 per cent of the property tax, not the returns a real owner would get. That is why the city has to be very careful at what it spends real money.
You make some very good points, but I'm not convinced some kind of "exotic" deal is impossible. Say the endowment/pension offers the city a "sweetheart" deal on a bond offering (e.g. 30 yrs. at ~4% APR); in turn, DART builds transit lines that make the same endowment's real estate holdings particularly attractive (perhaps even its own subway station). The line would obviously benefit both principle parties but also every other tenant and landlord in the area.
Wasn't it on this same thread (or at least this forum) someone brought up how the original streetcar lines were actually "land plays" for developers trying to sell homes? I'm not saying laying LRT track is a get-rich-quick scheme, but it seems like there could be a way to make it more than just a money-suck.
That's when most people didn't have cars, or only one per family.
What is the difference between Mechanical Engineers and Civil Engineers?
Mechanical Engineers build weapons, Civil Engineers build targets.
http://www.dart.org/news/news.asp?ID=978
Media Relations Contact:
Morgan Lyons
Mark A. Ball
October 4, 2011
DART's EA for Dallas Streetcar project recognized by FTA
Dallas Area Rapid Transit's (DART) Environmental Assessment (EA) for the Union Station to Oak Cliff Dallas Streetcar project has won the 2011 Outstanding Achievement Award for Excellence in Environmental Document Preparation by the Federal Transit Administration (FTA).
The Dallas Streetcar EA was chosen by the FTA as an excellent example of environmental streamlining that produced an effective, efficient, and practical environmental document.
A collaborative endeavor between the city of Dallas, North Central Texas Council of Governments, and DART, the proposed project consists of an approximate 1.6-mile, single at-grade, dedicated streetcar track extending from near Union Station in downtown Dallas to the Colorado Boulevard and Beckley Avenue intersection in Oak Cliff.
DART has received the award two of the past three years. In 2009 the FTA recognized the agency for its planning work on the Orange Line light rail to Irving. The award was presented at the annual meeting of the American Public Transit Association.
And we wonder why this country is so screwed.
Our country has always been screwed since 1776. I know the Tea Party crowd loves our Founding Fathers, but they do not get that Founding Fathers did not really like one another i.e. Adams and Jefferson, Burr and Hamilton.
Tighten the female dog!
They also don't understand that the motto was "taxation without representation" not "taxed enough already"
If they did they might be in support of allowing American citizens in Washington D.C. to have full representation in the U.S. Congress
edit: never mind... :-)
Last edited by art_suckz; 05 October 2011 at 04:32 PM.
"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."
The Streetcar line project has been delayed but don't worry the Federal Government has give us an additional 9 months to complete the project.
http://oakcliff.bubblelife.com/v/355...Oak_Cliff.html
As for the streetcar project, the city will use a $3 million federal grant to build a side track for parking a spare car along the line.
Because the change requires more studies and engineering, the Federal Transit Administration has given the city an additional nine months, until October 2014, to roll out the service, said Jay Kline, a project manager for Dallas Area Rapid Transit.
The 350-foot-long side track will be built at the streetcar stop near Zang and Oakenwald Street. The spare parked there would be available to replace a disabled car, reducing system down time, Kline said. And it would be available to expand service if needed.
I'd rather them look into and implementing this stuff from the get go and get it semi-right the first time.
That easy to say and get right the first time if the project is fully funded. But it wasn't. Dallas got half the Federal funds they requested. So, immediately the planners had to replan the new trolley line to fit the project within available funding. The passing siding with the resulting two turnouts was eliminated. Our congresswoman got additional Federal funding so the passing siding could be restored.
It's easy to look back and say it would be nice for projects to be built as initially planned. But other interests come into play forcing changes to most projects. There are always competitive projects seeking funding. If the original planners weren't flexible, the entire project would have died a sudden death (like Fort Worth's streetcar project) due to insufficient funds. They too only got half the Federal funds requested, but they didn't have the flexibility to build their project smaller and cheaper.
DART has a projected schedule to implement the Oak Cliff streetcar. Some interesting details can be found on DART's BoardCommittee of the Whole 20 Mar 2012 minutes on page 33 at
http://www.dart.org/about/board/boar...32012Whole.pdf
Dallas - Oak Cliff Schedule > 12 Jul 10 to 31 Oct 14
All ILA Agreements > 12 Jul 10 to 13 Sep 12
Environmental/Preliminary Engineering > 6 Aug 10 to 25 Dec 11
Funding Milestones > 16 Aug 11 to 26 Sep 11
*DART Streetcar Procurement and Delivery* > 4 Nov 10 to 26 Sep 14
Overall Design Build Construction > 4 Nov 10 to 31 Oct 14
Streetcar Construction > 14 May 14
SCS Software OCC Mods > 25 May 13 to 27 Jun 14
VBS > 4 Jun 13 to 11 Aug 14
Integrated Testing > 27 Jun 14 to 11 Sep 14
Revenue Service > 31 Oct 14
*Seattle Vehicle Alternate*
ILA with Seattle > 30 Sep 11 to 20 Mar 12
Inekon > 22 Mar 12 to 26 Jun 12
I bolded the complete by dates. Doesn't look it'll be long, hopefully by late June, before we'll be seeing a press release officially stating it'll be Inekon streetcars being ordered using Seattle's options, although modified somewhat for Dallas.
Here are Seattle's First Hill Streetcar specifications.
http://www.seattlestreetcar.org/abou...0Checklist.pdf
*Bi-directional with an operator’s cab at each end and doors on both sides
*Double articulated
*Approximately 60 percent low floor at 350 millimeters (14 inches) above top of rail
*Two bi-motor powered trucks with all axles powered
*Single unit operation with mechanical coupler for towing
*Approximately 20 to 21 meters (66 to 69 feet) in length
*Approximately 2.46 meters (8 feet) in width
*An empty vehicle weight of less than 32 metric tons (about 70,000 pounds)
*Fully redundant, microprocessor-controlled alternating current propulsion inverters
*Compliant with the American with Disabilities Act (ADA) through use of bridge plates
*Interior climate control, communications, and passenger information systems
Additionally, the City intends to specify a wireless operating capability for the First Hill Streetcar fleet, featuring vehicles that can:
• During a one-way run, travel fully loaded on a 0.5 mile segment without the overhead contact system (OCS), assuming a 5 percent gradient, at least two stations and three traffic stops, and a maximum speed of 20 miles per hour
• Re-charge during normal OCS operation or at passenger stations (with OCS) with minimal time requirements
• Permit raising and lowering the pantograph system by the operator at passenger stations
• Provide safe and timely transitions in control between normal OCS and alternate battery power systems
The vehicles are anticipated to have a passenger capacity similar to that of the vehicles operating in South Lake Union (Seattle), Tacoma and Portland: approximately 115 passengers seated and standing, with a “crush load” estimated at approximately 150 passengers.
I repeat, this isn't official yet!
Additional information about Seattle's First Hill streetcar line. They're running catenary wires above the northbound, uphill tracks. The southbound, downhill tracks will not have catenary wires, and streetcar operations will run off the battery.
Last edited by electricron; 17 April 2012 at 11:31 AM.
That will not change until American citizens realize the left infiltrated the mainstream media and the education system decades ago, and now controls most of it. As long American citizens pay far more attention to who got kicked off the island or who was eliminated from a dance contest than they do to what is really happening in government, the duping of America will continue.
www.dupedamerica.com
"Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."
Yeah the "mainstream media" Like what? Talk radio, Oh yeah, conservative host after conservative host after conservative host. Good luck finding a moderate on talk radio, much less a real liberal. Not to mention the bastion of conservative personalities at Fox News.
You're right, America has been duped. Thanks for that deregulating of the banking industry conservatives!
The troll is strong in you son. Only a true troll master responds to the previous year's comments.
Wow, I think this thread needs a new post.
Proposed Houston/Jefferson St. viaduct streetcar layout
Hope this will come to fruition. I love how the streetcar is getting great attention these days in DTD. Now, let's build them.
I hope they pick the Kinki.
"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."
Streetcar vehicle chosen...
DART awards Pennsylvania company with downtown-to-Oak Cliff streetcar project
By ROBERT WILONSKY Staff Writer
Published: 10 September 2012 11:07 AM
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local...ar-project.ece
When last we asked about the downtown-to-Oak Cliff streetcar project, scheduled to close the Houston Street Bridge sooner than later for construction, we were told there was a shortlist of would-be providers, and that the Dallas Area Rapid Transit board was this close to settling on a manufacturer. At last, we have a would-be winner: Brookville Equipment Corporation out of Brookville, PA, which DART’s Committee-of-the-Whole is scheduled to okee-doke tomorrow before the full board gives its final stamp of approval later this month.
As you’ll see below in the PowerPoint prepped for the August 28 rail committee meeting, there were three companies that bid on the project: Brookville Equipment Corporation, Inekon and CAF, with the 94-year-old Brookville coming up the winner by offering to build two streetcars for $9,422,837 (give or take a “5-percent supplemental work contingence”). Others were interested, but balked in part because of the small size of the order: two cars.
...
:-( they didn't pick the Kinki.
I cant see the article... but these cars only have one cab for driver? No doors on front and rear car... hmmm. I guess I will give it a chance.
edit: I see from their website they offer different door configs...
"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."
Negative: Reminds me of DFW's APM.
Positive: Glad we got one!
Will these cars and the new ones for the MATA extension be able to run both systems?
The company seems to have been around for a long time but... "American Manufacturing" isn't always the best of reputations.
They seem like a small outfit with majority focus on freight locomotives??
I will admit I know nothing about this company and not much about rail vehicle engineering in general... Just concerned that a two car order of custom made street cars might have quality issues.
And when a company has to ask you to believe in them.... well....
Just initial thoughts. I wont be too negative beyond these concerns. I kind of like the simple look of it. like I said, I'll give it a chance. They could turn out to be a great benefit all around.
Will the MATA, more than likely, be forced to go with this company as well now? Just to be practical?
"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."
MATA has and will continue to use reconditioned streetcars. There is no connection between MATA and OCTA. I am not even sure this Brookville car will fit on the MATA tracks without some reconstruction of the existing curves, so do not expect to see this streetcar in Uptown any time soon.
I have had some dealings with Brookville Equipment and I think they are a capable company. They did a great job on the Philadelphia Girard Street PCC Cars, completely rebuilding the equipment with modern trucks and controls, air conditioning and wheelchair lifts. They have since been contracted to do work for San Francisco and they provided the trucks and controls for the new Canal Street streetcars in New Orleans. They have the skills to produce an American built modern streetcar.
I have had a lot of unease about the American Iron Works/United Streetcar. Not trying to get political, but they seem to be a bloated, government subsidized organization that is more active touting their use of union labor than providing a useable product. I will have to check again, but last I heard they have not produced a useable streetcar yet. It is my understanding that their first car that went to Portland moved a few hundred feet from the truck to the maintenance shop and then never moved again before they shipped it back to United Streetcar. It is my understanding that the first car failed all of its tests. For these reasons, I understand your comments that American Manufacturing is not always best. We seem to have forgotton how to build durable transit vehicles compared to Europe and Japan. But, I think Brookville is a company with the background and experience to pull it off and a small order will be perfect for them to get their foot in the door. They were not formed solely for the purpose of grabbing this gub'mint contract.
It is interesting to me, tho, that their rendering looks almost identical to the United Streetcar product. I would guess their would be some room for customization, but that needs to be kept to a minimum to keep costs down.
As I recall, Brookville purchased a couple of the Fort Worth Tandy Subway cars when it shut down.
My $0.02. My opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinions or policies of MATA or NTHT.
Andy Haretip
Advertise here! Ask me how!
Good to know your positive opinion of their work. I hope it turns out great.... a few more American jobs always helps too.
"I need no warrant for being, and no word of sanction upon my being. I am the warrant and the sanction."
The PCC modernization that Brookville does looks very interesting and could have been appropriate for a Dallas application (they're restoring one in Dallas colors now, right?). I suppose the modern streetcar was preferred so that it can go off-wire for a portion of the route.
http://www.brookvillecorp.com/streetcar-division.asp
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brookvi...oto_7747918132
Looks like there are talks about expanding the line before construction even starts.
http://oakcliffblog.dallasnews.com/2...end-line.html/
That 0.7 mile extension would definitely make a difference in ridership.We also hear a serious search is under way for more streetcar funding to extend the line beyond its planned terminus at Colorado and Beckley to the intersection of Zang and Davis. Get it done while the contractor is on the job. Save money in the long run.
“It’s an option we have and we’re looking for ways to make it happen,” Manoy said, stressing he didn’t want to raise expectations and have people “thinking we can do this.”
Tom Shelton, a manager of the project for the North Central Texas Council of Governments, said “there is a keen desire to extend the project by a lot of people.”
The cost of such an addition has not yet been determined, he said. Another question I didn’t ask: What would an extention mean for the federal deadline to have the service running by October 2014?
“We’re looking under every stone,” said Shelton, who wouldn’t go so far as to say he is confident the money can be found.
“Am I hopeful? Yes,” he said. “We seem to find a way to get things funded. We’re creative. We should know more in the next 30 to 45 days.”
streetcarextension.jpg
Last edited by lakewoodhobo; 09 November 2012 at 08:37 PM.
Great News!!
I hope those guys at the NCTCOG try as hard and are as successful to help get rail projects financed as they have done with highway projects.
The extension would increase ridership and expand the Oak Cliff destination....
Zang-Davis sounds like a better terminus than Colorado-Beckley. Much better for retail and Restraunt activity.
Too bad they didn't prep Bishop for streetcar tracks during the recent reconstruction, but good idea to plan future expansions (and raise funds) before construction begins.
I agree but they might as well seek to terminate it at Jefferson-Zang. It will still be under a mile and run by two high activity areas.
You're map's a little off, as it would still go to Colorado/Beckley before being extended south. Don't want to eliminate all those hospital employees, one of the reasons for the grant in the first place.
Did the cars already get ordered and everything? Is it too late to make sure the Oak Cliff line cars compatible with MATA?
Why would a streetcar need to go down Bishop Ave?
It wouldn't, but that was one of the options being considered at one time.
Because at the end of Bishop is the Bishop Arts district. Also down Bishop is where the streetcar used to run. Back then it made a almost 90 degree turn at the T intersection of Bishop and Davis towards the west. You might have gotten hint of this from the public art at the intersection of Bishop and Davis which is a street car wheel.
Bishop Arts after all was a streetcar stop with direct streetcar access in the past. Of course the question is now a days is there a better route. Also I wonder if these modern street cars can make that 90 degree turn at Bishop and Davis like they use to.
Ideas for expanding streetcar lines already brewing in Dallas
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/commu...-in-dallas.ece
I agree that Zang is the best candidate for an Oak Cliff extension. As for the downtown side, I would love to see Main Street but think that Ross is more realistic (considering a long-term extension into East Dallas).The choices for an Oak Cliff extension boiled down to running the line south from Methodist to Davis Street along one of three streets — Bishop Avenue, Beckley Avenue or Zang Boulevard.
Bob Stimson, president of the Oak Cliff Chamber of Commerce, said Zang is the clear choice.
“The upside from an economic standpoint on Bishop is pretty de minimis. And Beckley, that’s just a tiny street,” he said.
A search is already on for money to extend the Oak Cliff line while the Union Station to Beckley portion is under construction.
The choice of a line through downtown will be more complicated. Options presented at last week’s meeting show possible alignments along Ross Avenue to the north, Main Street through the center of downtown, and Young Street to the south.
Any idea if the southern Dallas economic development money from the bond election can be used for the Oak Cliff extension?
Last edited by lakewoodhobo; 20 November 2012 at 11:18 AM.
Just a reminder, the Uptown portion of MATA is not compatible with the Oak Cliff equipment. Any connection of the Oak Cliff line to MATA would only be on the extension currently under construction unless significant resources are used to change the curve radii in several locations.
Andy Haretip
Advertise here! Ask me how!
Wow... that seems odd then that they would push so hard to have the two systems meet up... It seems to me that outside of having them meet up the best bet is down Main Street... and I would suggest going all the way to the edge of Deep Ellum.
Turely I don't know where they would get the money for a downtown line... the infrastructure is so expensive... but i guess hope springs enternal...
They could share the new loop around Klyde Warren Park, right? If so the park would serve as a natural transfer point between the older and newer equipment.
Yeah, I think that was the primary reason for adding the loop. I don't know if that is part of the current construction, tho.
Andy Haretip
Advertise here! Ask me how!
To meet up, the two streetcar lines don't have to share tracks. Will MATA share tracks with DART's light rail lines downtown, or at Cityplace? No. All that's needed is that they run close enough that most passengers will walk the distance between the lines.
With two transfers on an off DART light rail trains, MATA passengers can ride the Oak Cliff streetcars - and vice versa.
NCTCOG meeting documents for January 10th:Funding secured to extend Oak Cliff streetcar line to near Bishop Arts and Dallas Convention Center
By Roy Appleton
11:57 am on January 8, 2013
http://oakcliffblog.dallasnews.com/2...hop-arts.html/
Some uncertainties remain, but it looks like the downtown-to-Oak Cliff streetcar line will be extended to near Bishop Arts.
On Thursday, the Regional Transportation Council will consider reallocating $30.87 million previously set aside for a connector system at Love Field. The money would be used to extend the route from Colorado and Beckley, the current terminus, to near Zang and Davis. It also would provide money to continue the line from Union Station downtown to near the convention center.
Construction of the project’s 1.5-mile first phase, linking Union Station and Methodist Dallas Medical Center via the Houston Street bridge, is expected to be under way next month. That work, funded in part with federal stimulus money first awarded in February 2010, will close the Houston bridge.
The target date for completing the initial line is October 2014. The .7-mile extension along Beckley to Zang and finally Davis will continue into 2015.
...
http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committe...nda.011013.pdf
http://www.nctcog.org/trans/committe....rtc011013.pdf
Reallocate $30.87 million in TMF dollars from the Seamless Aviation Connections project to the Dallas Streetcar
- Funds will be used for rail vehicles, a southern extension (Phase 2), and a northern extension (Phase 3):
1. Vehicle Cost – $8M for 2 vehicles
2. Extension to the South (Phase 2 of Streetcar) - $12.87M
- Limits for this phase are – from Colorado/Beckley to Zang/Davis
3. Extension to the North (Phase 3 of Streetcar) - $10M
- Limits for this phase are – from Union Station/Houston Street to Young/Wood at the Convention Center Hotel
^That's excellent news, but I thought the money for the people mover had already been shuffled into this project? Maybe that was DART or City of Dallas funds as opposed to NCTCOG.
Also, by Young/Wood I assume they mean Young and Griffin? Young and Wood don't actually intersect.
Last edited by lakewoodhobo; 08 January 2013 at 02:16 PM.
This is great news for the trolley, which is wonderful, but if you have waited half an hour for the bus at Love Field to take you to the Dart (while you can see 4 Dart Trains going by) this is disappointing - the current Dart Connection for Love Field is a disaster
That's a significant amount of money for only 4 blocks downtown. Do you think it references using both Young and Wood to form a loop? Lamar Street would probably be the terminus since that corridor has been eyed for a future north/south streetcar expansion. With an expansion to the convention center hotel, the city has less need for D2 to take the costly underground route.
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