View Poll Results: Are You Voting For or Against Proposition 2?

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Thread: Proposition 2

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  1. #1
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Exclamation Proposition 2

    I decided to start this thread on Proposition 2 which is going to be on the Nov 8 ballot. I will tell you that I am opposed to this proposed amendment. I don't intend for this thread to be a big "NO on Prop. 2" rally, but this has been mentioned in other threads and I think that there should be a single thread dedicated to it. If you want to know why I oppose this amendment, just read what the DMN has to say about it:

    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....1d18d7a9.html

    What do you guys think?

  2. #2
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    I'm just thinking about the expense that my partner and I went through to draw up a will, documents for power of attorney, visitation rights, etc., and I'd hate for that all to be nullified. But I'm expecting it to happen. When it does, we'll most likely move out of Texas.
    Last edited by Columbus Civil; 27 October 2005 at 04:29 PM.
    Dallas uber alles

  3. #3
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columbus Civil
    I'm just thinking about the expense that my partner and I went through to draw up a will, documents for power of attorney, visitation rights, etc., and I'd have for that all to be nullified. But I'm expecting it to happen. When it does, we'll most likely move out of Texas.
    That is my point exactly. What I don't think a lot of people realize is that will also affect the straight unmarried couples as well. They will be forced to marry in order to have those same rights.

  4. #4
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    Funny how some of the same people who fight so hard for "under God" to remain in the Pledge of Allegiance don't care if "with Liberty and Justice for ALL" is removed...

  5. #5
    All Purpose Moderator warlock55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakewooder
    Funny how some of the same people who fight so hard for "under God" to remain in the Pledge of Allegiance don't care if "with Liberty and Justice for ALL" is removed...
    Nice point
    Consumers are not [the same as] citizens, and when a system pretends that they are, peculiar and even perverse things happen to decision making and democracy... - Benjamin Barber

  6. #6
    Smile... :) mikedsjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksig121
    What I don't think a lot of people realize is that will also affect the straight unmarried couples as well. They will be forced to marry in order to have those same rights.
    How is this?
    Listen to the Dividing Line, Pirate Christian Radio, CARM, White Horse Inn and RTS University the most nowadays.....

  7. #7
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikedsjr
    How is this?
    The wording of this amendment is so vague that the same domestic partner benefits and contracts that same-sex couples run the risk of losing can be applied to all unmarried couples because it recognizes a status similar to that of marriage.

    This thing is going to have so many Federal challenges if it passes, that it's not even funny.

  8. #8
    Smile... :) mikedsjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksig121
    This thing is going to have so many Federal challenges if it passes, that it's not even funny.
    I can agree with you there.
    Listen to the Dividing Line, Pirate Christian Radio, CARM, White Horse Inn and RTS University the most nowadays.....

  9. #9
    Super Moderator Tnekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksig121

    This thing is going to have so many Federal challenges if it passes, that it's not even funny.
    Probably a good place for it, if it passes. I thought for sure it would pass but now have some doubt. There seem to be enough questions about it now that maybe.......

  10. #10
    Super Moderator Tnekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksig121

    What do you guys think?
    Do a poll on it. I am voting against it. It's rediculous.

  11. #11
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster
    Do a poll on it. I am voting against it. It's rediculous.
    Done.

  12. #12
    Formerly Trolleygirl2 CityLove's Avatar
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    I'm restraining myself on commenting, because this issue is my hot-button. I can't even believe the amendment is being proposed. Well, I believe it, but it saddens me. I will MOST definitely be voting against it! Why deny the gay population the insanity of marriage? I think the straight population has done more damage to the "sanctity of marriage" than any homosexual man or woman would ever be able to match. What's our divorce rate up to now?

    This just burns my britches. I'm gonna shut up now before I get any more riled up.
    I tell everyone...I smile just because...I've got a city love...

  13. #13
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    I'm restraining myself on commenting, because this issue is my hot-button. I can't even believe the amendment is being proposed. Well, I believe it, but it saddens me. I will MOST definitely be voting against it! Why deny the gay population the insanity of marriage? I think the straight population has done more damage to the "sanctity of marriage" than any homosexual man or woman would ever be able to match. What's our divorce rate up to now?

    This just burns my britches. I'm gonna shut up now before I get any more riled up.
    I don't even care that much if we can legally marry. My partner and I have managed to do ok without that for over ten years I'm more worried about how the legislation may be interpreted to take away the legal protection we already have. My partner could be dying and the hospital may be able to legally bar me from being with him under this amendment. I realize that this is worst-case scenario, but it certainly opens the door for it.
    Dallas uber alles

  14. #14
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    Then his family contests the Will, and kicks you out of the house without so much as a tooth brush. It could happen with the over-reaching language of this Amendment.

  15. #15
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    I wonder who voted "for"???

    ...Mike, where are you???

  16. #16
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    I intentionally did not make the votes public so that people would vote honestly. I would like to hear the rationale for voting for it. That was kind of the point. I'm so deeply committed to one side of this that I sometimes have this false sense of security about this not passing. I want to hear the other side of this. I figure that, on this forum in particular, we can discuss this like rational human beings, not like fanatics (on either side).

  17. #17
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    I figure it will pass -- the right-wing, rednecks and evangelicals will back the Klan on this one.

  18. #18
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    I understand that people have religious/moral convictions that would cause them to vote for this. I'm sure most of them are good people.
    Dallas uber alles

  19. #19
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    I think that the Klan supporting this is about the best thing that could happen for those who are against this. You saw the flack that Dick.., er Rick Perry got for supporting them. What politician really wants to be seen on the same side of an issue as the Klan?

  20. #20
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    I don't think the Klan backing will have much of an effect one way or the other. The average Texan will see the word gay, immediately conjure up images of anal sex and vote yes.
    Dallas uber alles

  21. #21
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    The opposition needs to find two hot feminine lesbians and put them in a political ad giving each other a sponge bath.
    Dallas uber alles

  22. #22
    Feisty Ol' Coot hamiltonpl's Avatar
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    Under current Texas law, a gay couple can adopt one another -- but cannot marry. So Texas' policy allows a gay couple to be recognized -- as long as you're incestuous.

    This proposed amendment bars homosexuals from marrying or being recognized in a relationship "similar to" marriage. I do not think that courts will interpret this to nullify wills or powers of attorney among homosexual couples. Why? Because wills and powers of attorney are not relevant to the marriage relationship. In fact, one needs a will or power of attorney because they are not married to the person they wish bequeath property to or grant the power to make major decisions to.
    DAGNABBIT!

  23. #23
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    I'm sure Wills and other contracts will be challenged under the new law, why wouldn't someone try? Which means one would have to spend big bucks to defend against such... And, as the courts are being packed and backed by the religious right, aren't they going to expect them to rule against gays? How many judges get elected these days who aren't Republican and who aren't obliged to Christian Conservatives?

    What do you think it will do to companies and municipalities with domestic partner benefits? Will insurance companies sue to avoid paying such claims?

  24. #24
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    Wow X in Waco, there are a lot of JUDGMENTAL propaganda points being made in 'what it does and what it doesn't do'

    Ever heard of Judge Not ? Remove the beam from your eye...

  25. #25
    Feisty Ol' Coot hamiltonpl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lakewooder
    I'm sure Wills and other contracts will be challenged under the new law, why wouldn't someone try?
    Because the only people who can sue over the contracts are the parties to the contract. Who are the parties to the contract? The gay couple.

    Perhaps the money-maker in the relationship could sue and say that the contract was void on its face. This legislature might make being gay against "public policy" which would evaporate those contracts.

    This legislature has already made old common law doctrines against public policy. For instance, it used to be illegal to have a corporation assume debt under one name, then the next day reincorporate under a new name and not pay back the debt of the first company. After tort reform -- its perfectly legal. Basically, they made Enron legal and called it "reform."

    This longtime Republican has voted Democrat for the last 4 years because of this nonsense.
    DAGNABBIT!

  26. #26
    BootLegger X Factor's Avatar
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    I voted yes... My reason is being christian person, I believe in the bible. The bible states

    Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”


    So thats why Im voting for Prop.2. As well as it was the way I was raised. I have nothing against homosexuals, Its just my morals.
    Just to make it clear here what Prop.2 does...

    What Proposition 2 DOES




    • Establishes in the Texas Constitution the historic definition of marriage.
    • Excludes from the definition of marriage homosexual relationships and relationships of 3 or more persons.
    • Prohibits judges in Texas from anti-democratic efforts to redefine marriage.
    • Restricts government bodies in Texas from using tax dollars to give official recognition and benefits to homosexuals and other non-marital relationships that seek intimate marriage.
    What Proposition 2 DOES NOT DO


    • Does not interfere with the individual choices of citizens as to the private and/or legal relationships they desire to enter into and maintain.
    • Does not interfere with benefits granted by private corporations to their employees.
    • Does not void benefits granted in existing contracts.
    • Does not prevent governmental bodies from assisting needy persons in non-marital relationships.
    Somethings ya just can't change.

  27. #27
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    X Factor--

    I understand where you are coming from. I know it is your "moral" beliefs that would make you want to restrict rights from people. What I don't understand is why you care. The only people that I know that are soooo against it are closeted homosexuals. If this is the case, this link can help you: http://www.hrc.org/Template.cfm?Sect...ontentID=27259
    Last edited by St-T; 27 October 2005 at 06:51 PM.

  28. #28
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor
    I voted yes... My reason is being christian person, I believe in the bible. The bible states

    Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”


    So thats why Im voting for Prop.2. As well as it was the way I was raised. I have nothing against homosexuals, Its just my morals.
    Just to make it clear here what Prop.2 does...

    What Proposition 2 DOES




    • Establishes in the Texas Constitution the historic definition of marriage.
    • Excludes from the definition of marriage homosexual relationships and relationships of 3 or more persons.
    • Prohibits judges in Texas from anti-democratic efforts to redefine marriage.
    • Restricts government bodies in Texas from using tax dollars to give official recognition and benefits to homosexuals and other non-marital relationships that seek intimate marriage.
    What Proposition 2 DOES NOT DO


    • Does not interfere with the individual choices of citizens as to the private and/or legal relationships they desire to enter into and maintain.
    • Does not interfere with benefits granted by private corporations to their employees.
    • Does not void benefits granted in existing contracts.
    • Does not prevent governmental bodies from assisting needy persons in non-marital relationships.
    I respect your beliefs and your honesty. I would never want the government to come in and tell your church that they have to marry same-sex couples. My argument is a purely political one. In my opinion, the government should not be in the marriage business in the first place. Since they are, the same rights that are afforded one group of tax payers should be given to all.

    This is the wording on the ballot:

    "The constitutional amendment providing that marriage in this state consists only of the union of one man and one woman and prohibiting this state or a political subdivision of this state from creating or recognizing any legal status identical or similar to marriage."


    Just about any first year law school student could argue that all of the situations that you mentioned above are unconstitutional according to that wording. While it may not be the intention of the drafters of the amendment to go that far, it is far from set in stone that it will not.

    In the eyes of the law, what constitutes a marriage or a similar status? The only difference legally is that instead of cohabitating, two people have registered with the state and are given legal rights based on that registration. Couldn't it be argued that going through all of the processes that ColumbusCivil and his partner have constitute a status similar to that of marriage? I think that it could be reasonably argued in a court of law.

    That's the scary part. Once you write hate and discrimination into the constitution, it opens the door for all kinds of unintended consequences.

    I am not attacking you. I appreciate your candor. I'm sure that there are many others here who agree with you. Thanks for posting.

  29. #29
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    hamilton, what do you think the effect of the amendment on domestic partner health benefits will be?
    Dallas uber alles

  30. #30
    Feisty Ol' Coot hamiltonpl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columbus Civil
    hamilton, what do you think the effect of the amendment on domestic partner health benefits will be?
    First, it would apply if you work for the state, city, public school district or county. Why? Because the proposed amendment specifically bars the state government from recognizing gay marriage. Next, does "recognizing a status" mean a benefits contract? Maybe. If the insurance contract bestows benefits on the basis of marriage or a relationship similar to marriage -- the benefits package might be in jeopardy. This analysis is full of qualifications because it would take the "perfect storm."

    Those gay people working for the State of Texas, or any of its subdivisions (i.e. city, county, school districts, etc) may be in jeopardy.
    DAGNABBIT!

  31. #31
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    So could straight couples living together...

  32. #32
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    Matthew 19:4-6 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made[a]them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’?[c] 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
    XFactor, would you support a Texas constitutional amendment making divorce illegal?
    Last edited by Columbus Civil; 27 October 2005 at 06:47 PM.
    Dallas uber alles

  33. #33
    BootLegger X Factor's Avatar
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    Yes, In some ways.. the Bible states
    "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery"

    This means that if someone is unfaithful they can be divorced... But thats the only way I'd Support Divorce.
    Somethings ya just can't change.

  34. #34
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    So why not codify that in State Law? After all 'adultery' is in the top ten (commandments). Also we really should outlaw women wearing pearls and gold...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor
    Yes, In some ways.. the Bible states
    "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery"

    This means that if someone is unfaithful they can be divorced... But thats the only way I'd Support Divorce.
    Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

  36. #36
    BootLegger X Factor's Avatar
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    I'm 42
    Somethings ya just can't change.

  37. #37
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    ^Oh, OK, thanks. I thought you were a lot younger. Are you happily married? If so, how long?

  38. #38
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    So why isn't anyone pushing to make adultery and divorce illegal? These are greater threats to the sanctity of marriage.
    Dallas uber alles

  39. #39
    Smile... :) mikedsjr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Columbus Civil
    So why isn't anyone pushing to make adultery and divorce illegal? These are greater threats to the sanctity of marriage.
    I don't understand this either. I guess when christians or their best friends have fallen into those two categories they have more compassion for those people even though it is immoral too.

    Frankly, I've probably have had more arguments with Christians who want to defend divorce than any gay discussion. I'm very vocal about how Christians ought to act more than I am about non-Christians ought to act. I just don't expect the same level of morality from non-Christians as I do Christians.
    Last edited by mikedsjr; 28 October 2005 at 05:15 PM.
    Listen to the Dividing Line, Pirate Christian Radio, CARM, White Horse Inn and RTS University the most nowadays.....

  40. #40
    BootLegger X Factor's Avatar
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    No Divorced... Just Kidding... Happily married thats an oxymoron. But yeah married for 20 years.
    Somethings ya just can't change.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor
    No Divorced... Just Kidding... Happily married thats an oxymoron. But yeah married for 20 years.
    You were quite young when you got married...

    And, I'm not attacking either. :firegrin:

  42. #42
    BootLegger X Factor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by St-T
    You were quite young when you got married...
    Whats that have to do with anything?
    Somethings ya just can't change.

  43. #43
    Formerly Trolleygirl2 CityLove's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor
    No Divorced... Just Kidding... Happily married thats an oxymoron. But yeah married for 20 years.
    LMAO. Dude, you can't lie on a forum when people on the same forum know the truth! Sorry, but I had to front you out...

    If you'd been married for 20 years that would've made you...what... Negative 3 when you got married?

    Go ahead, hate me. But if you're going to try and put up a valid defense, at least be truthful with people when they ask you questions.
    I tell everyone...I smile just because...I've got a city love...

  44. #44
    FKA Ninjatune Justin Terveen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trolleygirl2
    LMAO. Dude, you can't lie on a forum when people on the same forum know the truth! Sorry, but I had to front you out...

    If you'd been married for 20 years that would've made you...what... Negative 3 when you got married?

    Go ahead, hate me. But if you're going to try and put up a valid defense, at least be truthful with people when they ask you questions.

    HA! Busted...

    Owned....

  45. #45
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    I am not attacking you. I appreciate your candor. I'm sure that there are many others here who agree with you. Thanks for posting.
    I'd like to echo this sentiment. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, XFactor. BTHO ISU
    Dallas uber alles

  46. #46
    BootLegger X Factor's Avatar
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    Anytime... Hey its what Americas all about. Being able to debate things in a civil manner.
    Last edited by X Factor; 27 October 2005 at 07:13 PM.
    Somethings ya just can't change.

  47. #47
    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    All this talk of marriage is making me horny. I'm outta here.
    Dallas uber alles

  48. #48
    BootLegger X Factor's Avatar
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    ^ Wow
    Somethings ya just can't change.

  49. #49
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Not all Christians share this view of Prop. 2

    http://www.h4pj.org/marriage/vote.php

  50. #50
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    "Hey its what Americas all about."

    Exactly why we don't need the Amendment...

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