From wiki article using August figures.Originally Posted by Rangers100
According to NCTCOG regional transit statistics, light rail average weekday ridership in August of 2011 was 76,629 compared to 56,608 in August of 2010, an increase of 20,000. It is anticipated that ridership will accelerate further aided by a more connected light rail system when the Orange line to DFW airport is completed.
I think some of the decreases in Red and Blue line riders can be attributed to some switching to the Green/Orange lines. I believe the way DART count riders is as they board the trains. In the past, travelers starting their commute near Green and Orange lines uses to board buses initially, then board red and blue line trains. Today, they don't - they board Green/Orange line trains. And with the Orange line following the Red line north, riders don't necessarily have to transfer onto a Red line trains anymore. So the few riders taking the Orange line north towards Plano don't get counted for the Red line. Those taking the Orange line south from Plano don't either.
Great, thanks for the update. I absolutely agree -- and have been amazed that most of the reporting on DART ridership haven't discussed that as a major reason for perceived drops on the Red and Blue lines. Particularly this fall, the trains (even the "dismal" red line) have seemed consistently to be much more full to me than the last time I was riding them with any regularity, in 2009.
Times weighs down on you like an old, ambiguous dream. You keep on moving, trying to slip through it. But even if you go to the ends of the earth, you won't be able to escape it.
Haruki Murakami
I'm glad to hear about the increased ridership. I also agree with electricon's thesis: that Red- and Blue Line ridership are "down" because commuters are boarding at Green Line trains instead.
Further, I'd like to make a "shout in the wilderness" that it's imperative to consider light rail investment as decades-long project. We can't get too caught up in month-to-month or year-to-year figures. Car culture is deeply entrenched in this country, and esp. this city. Every time I ride the train, I hear someone--either on the train or afterwards--say something along the lines of "I didn't know you could do that [ride DART to where ever, instead of driving]."
It's going to take a long time for people to realize (1) that such a effective and extensive transit system exists here, and (2) that, once all the costs of driving (time + gasoline + headache + ...) are taken into account, riding the trains is actually a preferable alternative!
OK, thus endeth the diatribe. Thanks for listening.
With the trains finally reaching the vast employment centers west of downtown - UTSW/Parkland, Las Colinas and the airport(s), residential concentration along the Central Expressway/Red/Blue Line corridor will begin to respond.
^ Here's hoping. I still think we are at least two decades away from seeing any kind of clear picture on how much (or perhaps whether) the light rail system impacted North Texas. I can't think of anywhere else in the world with such an extensive system as wildly spread out as DART's. That could lead to a new urban model, with riverbeds of urbanism spread throughout a region that leave those choosing a more suburban lifestyle easier access to urban zones -- or it could fail handsomely.
Times weighs down on you like an old, ambiguous dream. You keep on moving, trying to slip through it. But even if you go to the ends of the earth, you won't be able to escape it.
Haruki Murakami
I asked partly out of noticing the same thing. For instance, I came across some comments elsewhere, from early 2010, describing Pearl Station as dangerous or scary at night. I regularly pass through or use Pearl Station at night now, and it always has a decent number of people on the platform and is not at all dangerous.
^ On that point -- any thoughts on Fair Park station after dark (7-11pm)? Now that it's finally nice out, some of the evening events (at the Music Hall and Nouveau 47) would be much more easily accessible via train, but don't want to subject newer DART riders to unnecessarily intimidating or dangerous situations.
Times weighs down on you like an old, ambiguous dream. You keep on moving, trying to slip through it. But even if you go to the ends of the earth, you won't be able to escape it.
Haruki Murakami
My wife does stuff at CentralTrak, the UTD artist residency thing down Exposition from the station, quite a bit. She (or we) would ride the train and we always felt fine. She broke her foot two months ago so now she drives, but I'm pretty comfortable with the area. Weekend nights are better because the Amsterdam and Pizza Lounge are busier, so there's more "eyes" on the street.
The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands. - Robert Persig
Took the train to and from a private dinner function at Fair Park just a couple weeks ago. Left around 9:00pm and took the train to Pearl Station then walked from there to the Majestic for the Feist show.
I don't know where this whole perception of the DART trains as dangerous came from, but it just simply isn't reality at this point in time.
^ The trains aren't, but the stations can be. The last time I was living here I got robbed at knifepoint at Cedars, and I know two or three others had similar experiences there. I don't really mind -- I've lived in rougher neighborhoods -- but I want to avoid exposing others who might react differently.
Thanks for the FP station info -- that was my guess, the area around CentralTrak and Amsterdam seems to be doing nicely, but appreciate getting your confirmations.
Times weighs down on you like an old, ambiguous dream. You keep on moving, trying to slip through it. But even if you go to the ends of the earth, you won't be able to escape it.
Haruki Murakami
2 or 3 people robbed at knifepoint at the Cedars Station? How long ago were those incidents? In the last 4 and a half years? I have lived nearby during that timeframe and never heard of them. DPD Chief has lived next door to the station for last 18 months and I think it would have gotten some attention. Consistently other than burglaries the only crime in this area is derelicts beating on other derelicts for drugs, deals gone awry.
New ridership numbers
http://transportationblog.dallasnews...icking-up.html
The summary
Yearly numbers
Red line up in 2011 from 2010
Blue line down in 2011 from 2010
Green line obviously up significantly in 2011 from 2010
January
Red line up in Jan. 2012 from Jan. 2011
Blue line down in Jan. 2012 from Jan. 2011
Green line down in Jan. 2012 from Jan. 2011
Last edited by DallasMichael; 14 March 2012 at 09:32 PM.
Michael Lindenberger at DMN had an entry on his transportation blog that asked the question: how did the city of Dallas have 6.7 % using transit in 1990 before DART rail, but now has only a little over 4%? His comment was that DART's pruning of its bus system as rail expands is removing the redundancy from system that would make it more usable to anyone not just a routine day after day same point to point commuter.
when you keep tearing down significant numbers of lower income apartment units, you will see some ridership decrease.
As the trains expand into the suburbs to carry more people into the busy central city, DART options within the central city should expand.
My take is that DART made a pact with the Devil, Light Rail, that traded its higher and relatively fixed operating costs to increased urban investment and activity that it promised, leading to higher revenues. Whether caused by the recession, placement of lines in old industrial vs. residential paths, or something else, the Devil has not delivered. Instead DART has an expensive attraction that it hopes will soon fulfill its promise while stagnant revenues drive bus reductions that drive further reductions in usage. DART has one good trait in that usage really does not drive revenues. It will not fail, but absent significant improvement in sales activity, cannot get any better.
While apartment renovations have a local impact, I cannot say the city suffers from a relative, compared to 1990, lack of moderate and below average income households that would seem natural consumers of DART.
^While I still consider the DFW rail station a little more vital time than the second downtown rail corridor, the very expensive light rail back bone of the whole system will not be complete until at least two routes through downtown are complete. Of course, after D2, many of the train stations will need to be retrofit to accommodate thru-traffic / express trains - for light rail trains providing commuter service as well as for 'regular yet-to-be-invented(?)' passenger trains from current non-member exurbs. For example, one day DCTA trains make all the stops noted along the starter route, but are able to proceed non-stop along the Green line corridor from the Cotton Belt to downtown. I realize this type of train and/or service is not possible today, but I'm certain someone will figure out how to make it happen.
North Texas population growth will naturally occur mostly on the edge of town where less expensive single family homes are to be found. As a result, all regional mass transit initiatives must mandate easy, convenient, safe, reliable train service from every burgeoning exurb into the existing employment centers.
Fingers crossed that DART will secure another grant from the feds to pay for the D2.
Here's the other issue...intown residents. If you live and work in downtown and/or surrounding neighborhoods, you don't need DART. You have the trolley, your own two feet, bike and car. I doubt DART planners envisioned thousands of residents where otherwise there weren't any.
Tighten the female dog!
Huge swaths of NE Dallas apartment complexes have been torn, and you also see it in NW Dallas. It will probably continue. Not apartments, go to South Dallas (i.e. Bon Ton) you'll see many empty lots.
Dallas of now versus Dallas 1990 did not have immigrant population it has today. Their jobs may require them to be a different locations on a daily basis or are beyond DARTs reach.
Tighten the female dog!
What evidence is there those intown residents are walking, biking, or taking trolley to destinations? People in Uptown are not walking over to Albertson's for groceries, of those that shop there, never mind anywhere else.
The people that would have lived in those units are still here. They just live somewhere else. The city's population is level and to my knowledge, even the influx of Uptown, Downtown, and Victory residents has not moved our median or average income higher.
Comment about immigrants speaks not about who they are, but where they work. The jobs for DART riders and would be riders are moving faster outward that DART can move to serve them. While I have seen average commute times, I wonder what the average commute time by income is for city residents relative to 1990. I suspect it is higher increase for low income than overall increase for city residents.
MJ you're being a bit too slick. I also said car. But yes, now that you mention it, I do know residents in Uptown who - GASP! - walk to Albertson's. But I digress.
If you live in downtown, and work downtown, walking is probably more convenient than DART. If you live in Uptown, and work in Uptown, your car or two feet are more convenient than light rail.
Tighten the female dog!
The density in the neighborhood surrounding downtown need to go up. All stations within the 635 loop need to have the momentum that Victory Park (all the new complexes popping up) and Mockingbird station have. It looks like Dallas is going a good job so far, and just needs to keep it up.
The right projects and placement will be in place in the near future. The orange line has to be a huge boost. If it isn't that will be a huge disappointment. Major employment and education centers usually mean large ridership. Not to mention an international airport. I would think a completed new Parkland that is right at the footsteps of the station would be a large boon compared to current ridership to that station. If the 4 new projects in Victory come to fruition, you have another possible boost. If we could ever get CityLights, Spire and Crozier Tech up, those would also create boosts as they are right at stations. I don't think CityPlace truly becomes big until the West Village area developments actual reach the station. They are getting close though. Mockingbird is what it is. Good ridership and could only be boosted by the Bush Library and new development in the Eastern Lots. Walnut Hill and Lake Highlands I look at similarly. Both areas have seen significant teardowns of apartments. I knew someone walking distance from the Walnut Hill Station before I left Dallas, and when I got back it was like a desert with fresh roads. Huge loss of people and ridership for buses and trains for both. The same is happening at LBJ Skillman. Still busy, but not like it used to be. These losses still haven't been replaced.
I don't think increasing the density and amount of people living downtown is going to have as much as an effect on ridership numbers as the neighborhoods that surround the stations outside of the CBD.
Once more stations have complete mixed use developments around them there will be more reasons to use the train to travel to and from those centers. As Uptown Station is surrounded by more density as well as Mockingbird, Downtown, Victory and as we make some destination stations for specific travel such as a year round features at Fair Park station then people who live nearby these stations will use Dart more often to get around to these features. If you live at the downtown Plano station you are more likely on a weekend to ride down to Uptown station and spend the day. This type development needs to be at more stations. Some stations just need to be connected to the features better such as Park Lane station to Northpark and Park Lane Place with all of the shopping and movie theater. You should be able to exit the station and walk through Park Lane Place and across onto Northpark without having to deal with crosswalks and traffic.
I don't know how because of the way the streets are in Dallas, but I think if the bus system was easier to use, it would also help increase train traffic. It's confusing to know which bus routes feed into which stations, transfer centers, etc. Unfortunately, many of the buses in Dallas do not stay on one street like a lot of other cities, so bus routes are a little harder to figure out. But its difficult to know which route to take to station so a lot of people end up driving directly to the station which isn't very efficient in my eyes.
DART has plenty of tools to help. I think Google maps also have links that tell you the buses that pass a particular location at identified bus stops. They have done a good job with mobile tools. Now if they would learn how to use the tools in ad hoc situations. What good is an alert page if it only shows month long traffic diversions?
More losses, limited gains in DART April ridership numbers
http://transportationblog.dallasnews...idership.html/
^Thanks for all the good work, Rodger Jones. I've enjoyed the walk-to-the-station saga.
Attention, transit thinkers. Help out my chum Michael Lindenberger with something he's doing on DART. Michael tweeted this overnight:
Michael Lindenberger @Lindenberger
Dallas urban types: Give me yr best idea what #DART must do 2 win riders @ EXISTING stations mlindenberger@dallasnews.com w/yr name & city
Let me broaden that invitation, hoping Michael will pardon my presumption, to include more than just "urban types" (though I know where he's coming from). DART, to make its light rail relevant and politically defensible across its service area, has to click with more everyday people in Plano and other bedroom communities. For that matter, many current stations in Dallas serve essentially single-family neighborhoods.
http://transportationblog.dallasnews...thinkers.html/
Seems DART would be smart to implement NFC technology for fare collection. I believe Salt Lake City and Austin are doing so. Most smart phones are incorporating the chip and it would greatly reduce boarding time and expand ridership as 'exact change anxiety' would be out the window. Who carries change anymore anyway?
I'd bet operating expences, and on-time performance would be improved as well... Possibly to the extent that you could have a reduced rate for NFC boardings (much like a toll tag)... at least to get the service going. Dallas is actually quite tech savvy and I think would be a prime example of this. Especially when you consider the ATT and Verizon footprint here... Both are jointly developing NFC system (see ISIS) and Dallas would be a prime example of how to make it work in a big city.
It would probably help if they had those screens with minutes:seconds until the next train, like I've seen at stations in other cities. People are generally discouraged when they don't know when the train is coming.
Agreed... Their phone app seems to have all the pieces necessary to do this with ease (for both trains and buses), but its UI is very poor and it tends to send out bogus times quite often.
Besides development at stations, DART needs to focus on ways to support a non-car or limited-car lifestyle for more of the population.
- Improve frequency and extend hours of operation.
- Ruthless cleaning, customer service, and enforcement of quality of life complaints.
- Concentrate on seamless connections and proper network timing, and use advanced tools for smartphone locations and station display boards.
- Show maps at each station and online showing destinations in the easy walkshed, get them sponsored by local businesses.
- Provide spaces and incentives for car-share at the stations ("5% off car share with a monthly pass").
- Provide spaces and incentives for bike-share at denser locations.
- Support bike infrastructure and fight to get helmet laws removed.
I left off the skip-stop or other express ideas since they are suburban-commuter-centric. The time it takes to go long distances on DART rail or bus is definitely a problem, but from a lifestyle perspective can be ameliorated by proper selection of workplace and abode. However the frequency is a constant overhead loss that affects every trip, no matter how short.
Note that DART shouldn't be advertising both the gas cost savings and the time savings. As gas costs go up fewer people drive, leading to less congestion on the roads, reducing any (real or perceived) time savings on DART.
"Ultimately, helmet laws save a few brains but destroy many hearts."
- T.J. DeMarco
I heard that some of the suburban stations have them now; they just haven't made it downtown yet.
Yeah when your at the Downtown Garland station it counts down till the next train arrival on that LED horizontal sign they have at all the stations, they added that feature a couple of years ago.
Last edited by cowboyeagle05; 11 June 2012 at 09:15 PM.
I agree that cleanliness, security and extended operating hours are paramount.
I also echo the express train idea.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned a crosstown line. Who wants to go downtown to go back uptown on the other side of town? I sure don't.
^ Cotton Belt line is crosstown line in the planning stages. Plano, Addison, and Richardson won their side of the arguement over putting a east / west line along 635.
Just about every transit system in the world with traditional "express" services use triple or even quadruple tracks. DART's existing double track lines aren't sufficient to support "express" services.
DART's headways at 10 minutes per line becomes 5 minutes per corridor where the different lines merge together, at 8th, Bachman, and Mockingbird stations. At best, you're only going to save 5 minutes running an express train before a regular train on a double track corridor. Assuming DART did, they would still have to fit in 8 additional "express" trains (yes two for each color, one from both direction) within a 20 minute cycle in the downtown corridor to be fair. That means squeezing in 16 trains instead of 8 trains within a 20 minute cycle, going from a train every 2.5 minutes (150 seconds) to a train every 1.25 minutes (75 seconds). If that were done, they would have to close every cross street crossing the downtown street mall. Which brings up another point that should be discussed, just about every transit system in the world with "express" services is also 100% grade separated.
DART's light rail system has two very valid reasons why it doesn't provide "express" services. Additionally, there's not one light rail system in the world that does. DART did not build a "heavy" or "metro" rail system, so stop expecting it to provide services only capable by such systems.
To even consider providing "express" services, DART must first upgrade its light rail lines. First item on such an agenda is building 100% grade separation corridor in downtown Dallas (at the least after all the lines merge). Second item: DART would also have to build a third bypass track around strategic stations, so express trains can pass regular trains. Even so, scheduling and timing of all the trains would have to be almost perfect. Realizing that the more flexible the scheduling of the trains, the longer the third bypass or passing track needs to be.
Then DART would have to face the issue of politics. Every rider from every station will want "express" services. Deciding which station to bypass, and bypassing them, creates headaches few Board members will want to tackle.
All of that costs additional money, which is why no light rail system in the world provides "express" services. If you're going to spend more money, why not just go ahead and build a "metro" system from the beginning?
Last edited by electricron; 12 June 2012 at 11:06 AM.
Thank you for providing this info I repeatedly remind people that we have a Light Rail system not a Heavy Rail transit system. People don't ever understand why that matters or what the real difference is. As far as most people are concerned they are all Trains that carry people so it's hard to communicate without losing people in the details. Much like the difference between a Suspension Bridge and a Cable Stayed Bridge.
Construction at most of the Light Rail stations to allow express train service should be part of adding another line through downtown. Evolving the capabilities of Light Rail service to include efficient peak commuting capacity is one of the requirements for increasing ridership, along with new commuter trains connecting outlying communities (Denton, McKinney, Greenville, Waxahachie, Terrell/Forney etc) to the downtown Dallas hub.
Increasing train ridership within the region requires dominant employment centers easily and quickly reached by train. Folks living in Plano should be able to get into the CBD in 20-30 minutes.
Get real! Plano is 18 miles away from downtown Dallas. To traverse a distance that far in 20 minutes, a train would have to average almost 60 mph. Maximum train speeds would have to be over 100 mph to do so, if the train stopped at any stations along the way. Not many trains can accelerate to 100 mph within a mile or two, the spacing of DART's light rail stations.
The TRE (with commuter rail station spacing) doesn't average 60 mph either. It traverses the 34 miles between Fort Worth and Dallas in around 60 minutes, averaging around 30 mph. So, a light rail "express" train from Plano averaging TRE's 30 mph will need at least 36 minutes, nowhere near the 20 minutes you desire.
A 20 minute trip from Plano to downtown Dallas can only be achieved by a non-stop train. If leaving Plano immediately before a regular train, a non-stop trains would have to pass at least one previous Red train and one Orange train, and possibly a Blue train too. At least two passing sidings along the Red Line corridor, and possibly a third in the tunnel under North Central or in the Mockingbird Station portal. And that's just a Red line north non-stop train. DART would be pressured to do the same for the Blue, Green, and Orange lines trains as well. DART does not have the political backing to provide non-stop service, and neither by the way, does the TRE between downtown Dallas and downtown Fort Worth.
Last edited by electricron; 12 June 2012 at 11:55 AM.
Non-stop from one of the Plano Stations to Union Station is exactly what I'm talking about; Las Colinas non-stop to Union Station; Lake Dallas Town Center non-stop to Union Station.
DART must evolve the light rail system to meet passenger needs during Peak Travel times - rush hour. Express and Local service. If commuters from Plano can get to Union Station by nine o'clock in the morning in 20 or 30 minutes, the trains will be packed.
The only issue DART controls that is low cost is CUSTOMER SERVICE. Until DART learns to run itself like a business, learns how to market itself, learns how to improve customer satisfaction, everything else is moot.
I've said it before, DART is great at building a rail line. They are awful at running a business. Only they would institutute paid parking and 35-50% price increases to their product at a time when they are wanting to bring in new customers. It is asinine.
And please don't give me the B.S Line that every rider cost them such and such dollars. If that were the case, then just run empty trains and live on sales tax. If you run the same schedule, with the same train sets, and carry 50% more passengers, you make about 50% more in fare. Period.
Another thing they need to do if they are going to keep the lower frequencies on the Red and Blue line is build out the platforms to accomdate 3 car train sets. Especially on the Red Line. I think part of their problem with Red Line ridership is that they've lowered their capacity, and a lot of people simply up and left because they were sick of either not getting on a train, or standing the whole way looking at armpits. Full trains are good to a point. At that point, you have add capacity, either by increasing frequency, or by adding additional cars.
Excellent points, but I do want to point out that the capacity of two SLRVs is practically the same as three LRVs. When DART reduce the headways on the Red Line to make room for Green and Orange Line trains, they did add Orange Line trains during the rush hours for the Red Line (north) corridor. So, the headways didn't change as much as some suggest. Never-the-less, I do agree DART needs to add capacity to the Red Line (north) corridor by lengthening the north station platforms. That will allow running three SLRV Orange Line trains on both the Red (north) and Orange Line corridors, although the Red Line trains will still max out at two SLRVs. DART would have to lengthen all the station platforms on all of the Red Line before it could run three SLRVs as Red Line trains. Likewise for Blue Line trains.
By concentration just on Red Line (north) stations, DART could be running three SLRV Orange Line trains over it. Then spend more on Red Line (south) and Blue Line station platforms as ridership increases. But that's a problem, ridership isn't increasing, it's decreasing.
I still don't think that there is going to be a significant increase until there is 4-5 blocks of continuous density around EACH station (so a substantial amount of people can actually walk to them) and until even more jobs come downtown (or at least a way to link riders to uptown)
I believe MATA, DART, and the City are looking at more streetcars to provide that access to Uptown.
DART, the City, and NCTCOG have chosen a multimodal solution. We need to wait for all the modes to come online before judging how well they're doing. Steps are being taken over many modes as we discuss it here.
If they could start developing the land around all the stations within the 635 loop (maybe even Loop 12) similiar to how Mockingbird stationis becoming (and SMU BLVD) and buildout the Knox/Henderson Station (I know it's a pipe dream due to funding, so you don't have to do the usual THERE IS NO FUNDING COMMENT that you like to throw in), i bet there would be a large increase.
The article recently posted in another thread contains a gem of wisdom:
"I also tend to agree with those readers of this blog that transit numbers around here will not improve with the economy, since the strongest economic activity in Dallas-Fort Worth has been beyond the reach of the 13 DART cities. Certainly that’s where the population continues to go.
Further, the DART rail system was designed as a hub-and-spokes operation, then built that way even as the population and jobs continued to shift. "
Unless and until the area's population and jobs growth truly shift to the downtown/uptown area (which despite our fondest hopes and dreams has NOT happened), we will continue to have a light rail system with weak ridership. Adding non-stop services to downtown Dallas won't help if that's not where people want to go.
Amen.
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