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Thread: Seoul: Cheonggyecheon Highway Demolition / River Restoration

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    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Seoul: Cheonggyecheon Highway Demolition / River Restoration

    Last edited by jsoto3; 21 March 2006 at 09:22 PM.

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    Whoa. So they turned a highway into a waterway. Not sure where the traffic went, but okay.

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    Administrator gc's Avatar
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    uhm, that is cool.
    “We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”

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    sweet

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    Supertall Skyscraper Member texman's Avatar
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    Seoul's own Riverwalk. Cool. But like Urban said, where did the traffic go?
    "And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963

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    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    My first thought was how nice it would be to turn the Canyon into a river (and not just by applying a smarmy rivery name like in the Pegasus Project plans). However, it looks like Seoul has problems that make any criticism about underfunded Dallas parks look trivial by comparison.

    From the official page:
    But Seoul, the capital city of Korea, has become, over three decades of rapid economic development, a grim, concrete-covered city, indeed too dreary a place to be called the face of the nation.

    Most leading capital cities in the world reserve a green or parked area corresponding to roughly 15 square meters per capita. What about Seoul? There is no real wooded area or park to speak of in the entire city center except Namsan. Seoul's total green area, currently, amounting to less than 4.5 square meters per inhabitant, to meet the minimum public green area per capita of 9.24 square meters, recommended by the Food and Agriculture Organization of the UN, it needs to come up with at least 8,000 additional acres to be dedicated to this purpose.

    Seoul, in other words, falls not only behind advanced world cities, but also fails by a huge margin to meet the minimum green area deemed necessary for healthy living. It is therefore anyone's guess what the quality of life in Seoul is like.
    That last sentence is a pretty hard slam -- it's considered very rude to make a direct statement like "It sucks to live here."

    Any stats on Dallas' "green area per capita"? Nothing useful came up on a Google search.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    ^Wow, interesting plan they came up with. I don't know what the Dallas stats are, only that we have the largest hardwood forest of any large American city and our new new river will have more parkland than central park times ???. Problem is that nobody knows the forest is there.

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    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster
    ^Wow, interesting plan they came up with. I don't know what the Dallas stats are, only that we have the largest hardwood forest of any large American city and our new new river will have more parkland than central park times ???. Problem is that nobody knows the forest is there.
    If a tree falls in a forest, and nobody knows it's there, does it count towards the green area per capita?
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    I am counting on the city to do a major PR push on this thing once they start making some progress towards opening that part of the park up.

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    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    Naming the abandoned illegal dump a "forest" was just a case of creative wordsmithing by a few hippies to keep the city from doing some necessary tree clearing inside the floodplain. The whole Cadillac Heights and Rochester Park levees and buyout program started it. In the end...we have with the Great Trinty Forest and a messy flood problem in the future.
    Dallas uber alles

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    We may not be able to make the canyon into a beautiful river walk, but dallas and the people that live here are taking steps towards making more green space. The park over Woodall Rogers which is now being funded privately will be a great green addition to Dallas and will cover a huge concrete eyesore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Columbus Civil
    Naming the abandoned illegal dump a "forest" was just a case of creative wordsmithing by a few hippies to keep the city from doing some necessary tree clearing inside the floodplain. The whole Cadillac Heights and Rochester Park levees and buyout program started it. In the end...we have with the Great Trinty Forest and a messy flood problem in the future.
    IYO. Now if we can just hear from trolleygirl.

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    LH Copycat Columbus Civil's Avatar
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    Required reading for those folks who think the "Great Trinity Forest" is really a forest:
    http://www.swf.usace.army.mil/pubda...dofdecision.asp

    http://www.americanrivers.org/site/...3.pdf?docID=141


    Nuts and bolts:

    Much like the City of Dallas, railroad companies, TXU and TxDOT mow drainage ditches, right-of-ways and other areas under it's control, the Corps of Engineers needed to clear out the brush and trees just downriver from Downtown. The trees and brush act as a gigantic net, trapping logs, alluvial debris and trash. This log jam of debris cause alot of problems for Rochester Park and Cadillac Heights in the great 1989 flood and some smaller floods. Most of the trees slated for bulldozing are less than 40 years old and grew up after the original levee system was completed. The Corps of Engineers is tasked with flood control and preventing catastrophic loss of life and property from flooding in the Trinity River area.

    The idea was initially on the drawing board back in 1965, but funding was short back then and the idea shelved. The need arose to clear out the trash and trees again in the late 1990's. The funding was granted, and the Corps moved forward with getting the plans dusted off for cleaning up the Trinity.

    But not so fast.

    Enter the hippies. All of the sudden, the nuisance trees that had overgrown the southern portion of the project instantly became a "forest" instead of what it really is...an overgrown drainage ditch. They scrambled to document and find every tree they could that might be older than the original bulldozing in the 1930's and 40's. They found a few, called them all sorts of fancy things like Indian Marker trees etc. They put alot of pressure on the city and federal government to shelve the idea once again. The feds barely bought the idea and the result is the Corps of Engineers document above.

    Read it. Then read the American Rivers .pdf #10, page 32 where they explain what they are trying to do.

    I'm all for tree conservation. I have posted before in a few threads where I was angered that old trees in Uptown were being destroyed to make way for new construction. But the "Great Trinity Forest" is different. It did not even exist till a few years ago. It was conjured up at the last minute to keep the bulldozers away. It's just a place holder.
    Dallas uber alles

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    I think we have already been down this path since I recall reading something like this before. I will still take the trees over clearcutting. I don't care if there is trash down there or not, it is still a large canopy of trees if they are 40 years or 200 years old and I personally would prefer having the green space, especially being right up next to the wetlands. Excellent bird viewing and the birds don't care how old the trees are.

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    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    I think we beat the Trinity ditch vs. Trinity forest issue to death in another thread, didn't we? Actually, I remember ignoring that thread after a few "is not! is too! not not not! too too too! You suck! You blow!" exchanges.

    Let's think outside the box, instead. Imagine an alternate universe, kinda like the Canal Era in the 1800s. Central Expressway, rather, Central Canal, would be a connection between White Rock Creek and the Trinity River. I-35E on the north side would connect the North Fork to the Central Canal. You wouldn't have I-30 at all, just a few locks & dams between Dallas and Fort Worth. I-45 would meet a similar fate, with the navigation system built between Dallas and Houston. And Downtown Dallas would be the Venice of the Southwest, with leisurely canal trips between Main St. and Uptown.

    Yeah, that's the ticket.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    ^That is one hell of a dream.

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    the-young-and-the-bright RobertB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster
    ^That is one hell of a dream.
    Well, I can't claim it's a new dream. Check out the Google Satellite photo of the lock & dam on the Trinity in South Dallas just east of Lincoln Memorial Park Cemetery. And of course, the Handbook of Texas article on Trinity River Navigation: "Beginning in 1902 with an appropriation of $400,000, the federal government over the next twenty years spent more than $2,000,000 building locks and dams on the Trinity. World War I halted this work, however, and in 1921 the project was abandoned as too costly."

    Of course, this was all before the 1926 establishment of the U.S. Highway System. In the early 1900s, the idea of a canal from Dallas to Houston was much less far-fetched than the idea that cargo and passengers would one day make the 230-mile trip in less than five hours on land.
    As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09

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    I am so happy they didn't do that.

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    Last edited by jsoto3; 05 October 2005 at 10:47 PM.

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    Administrator gc's Avatar
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    Wow, that is very cool.
    “We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”

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    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    Member orthr's Avatar
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    i wish dallas could do something like this.

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    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    WALKABLE DFW Blog Post

    Patrick has a new blog post about this incredible project:
    http://www.carfreeinbigd.com/2011/01...makes-man.html

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    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobertB
    Any stats on Dallas' "green area per capita"? Nothing useful came up on a Google search.
    I recently purchased the book Urban Green: Innovative Parks in Resurgent Cities which has an appendix tabulating the acres of parkland per 1,000 persons for many American cities. It lists Dallas as having 29,401 acres of parkland and a population of 1,266,372 (2007), yielding 23.2 acres per 1,000 persons (94 square meters per person or 1,010 square feet per person).

    The values in the appendix range from 1.1 acres/1k people (Santa Ana, CA) up to 1,794 acres/1k people (Anchorage, AK). The appendix is organized into four groups of cities per their relative population density. Dallas is ranked 7th of the 28 cities listed in the "Intermediate Low-Density Cities" group (for most parkland/person).

    If you would like any other stats or comparisons from this appendix, let me know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jsoto3
    If you would like any other stats or comparisons from this appendix, let me know.
    Actually, Appendix 2 can be viewed via the "LookInside" feature on the book's Amazon page (linked in previous post). Take the hyperlink in the "Book Sections" menu to the Index and then page backwards through the Appendices.

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    Moderator jsoto3's Avatar
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    Article posted in another thread by ericthegardener:

    http://www.grist.org/infrastructure/...y-life-goes-on

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    Mid-Rise Member ericthegardener's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsoto3
    Article posted in another thread by ericthegardener:

    http://www.grist.org/infrastructure/...y-life-goes-on
    Thanks for placing it in the proper thread jsoto3!

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    I wish something like that would happen in South Dallas with the relocation of I-45.

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