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Thread: Southwest & American Airlines

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Obviously investors think that AA stock is a better bet that Southwest stock right now.

    What is your take on the situation? How do you interpret stock prices?
    Comparing companies by comparing stock prices is like saying a Hummer gets better mileage than a Honda because it will go further on a tank. What counts in the market capitalization; i.e. stock price X number of shares outstanding.

    AMR: $6.51B
    LUV: $11.67B

  2. #302
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    Watching Mr. Crandall wax eloquently on Squawk Box the other day about "the network", all those planes, systems and hubs, I wondered when does all that stuff get turned into shareholder value. He clearly retains a lot of disdain for SWA. AA spends a lot of money moving a lot of people and paying a lot of salaries and interest, but it's a critical question whether its market cap will ever equal Southwest's, never mind exceed it.

    We are long past the point when the AA/US Air/Delta's should have simply replicated the SWA process. At this point I assume it's because they can't, one probable source of disappointment for WB. He probably thought declare bankruptcy, restructure everything, become like SWA, and come out swinging. Instead they come out and want to merge with United, another firm that also wasted its Chapter 11 process.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Gauging from the responses in this forum yes it is sensible to assume that certain people want AA to cease to exist.
    I have accumulated millions of miles on AA, and achieved Executive Platinum status several years in a row... AA's a world class airline.

    That being said, my relocation to DFW proved a rude introduction to monopoly power and AA's heavy handed tactics to protect same in the North Texas marketplace.

    It would be a tragedy if AA were to go out of business; nevertheless, I find their manner in which they protect their North Texas monopoly to be repugnant and all I want is for them:

    - to price flights which originate @ DFW in a manner comparable to the way they price flights in other markets; and

    - to stop opposing the efforts to end North Texas de facto exemption from the Airline Deregulation Act.


    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Obviously investors think that AA stock is a better bet that Southwest stock right now.
    No. What they think is that AA stock is a better bet now than it was a couple of years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    What is your take on the situation? How do you interpret stock prices?
    To determine a company's value in the market place, one must multiply share price by number of shares outstanding; the result is known as the market capitalization.

    When this computation is performed, the result is that Southwest is valued at an 80% premium to American.

    Assuming an investor wanted to take over either airline, they would have to offer a premium to this market cap.

    -- $11.64 billion in the case of Southwest;

    -- $6.34 billion in the case of American Airlines.

  4. #304
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    From the Boyd Group

    http://www.aviationplanning.com/SouthwestResearch.pdf


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    www.AviationPlanning.com July, 5, 2007 © The Boyd Group, Inc - All Rights Reserved
    WN Begins Strategic Shifts – Big Changes Coming
    As outlined at The Boyd Group’s Aviation Forecast Conferences as far back as 2004, the need for
    Southwest to begin to fundamentally adjust to the new airline industry environment has begun. In
    addition to schedule and flight strategy shifts, we can expect seat assignment by the end of year 2007.
    The airline game is no longer Southwest-driven. WN must now adjust to the market.
    The Growth: Smaller Airports. The Need: A More Diverse Fleet & More Hubbing. The fleet issue
    is the most pressing. Southwest actually operates two types of 737s - 300/500s, and new-generation -
    700s. Be that as it may, that is still represents a very narrow capacity range, which limits the carrier in
    regard to the types of markets it can effectively penetrate. Emerging growth markets such as
    Montgomery simply do not lend well to high amounts of service with 120 to 150 seat airliners.
    Furthermore, much of the traffic-generation in such markets is to other emerging industrial centers such
    as Shreveport, Flint, and Erie, and such markets need a strongly-focused hub system with a diversecapacity
    fleet, things that Southwest is a bit short on at the moment.
    WN Never Had Just A Single Strategy. Same For The Future. The oft-heard comment that
    Southwest traditionally avoided hubsite airports is just another urban-airport myth. Detroit, LAX, even
    SLC, inherited from Morris, are examples. The fact is that Southwest has traditionally been brilliantly nondoctrinaire
    and revenue-pragmatic about where it expanded. The main determinant was whether it could
    attract sufficient traffic, either by strong local population, such as Jacksonville, or where it could collect
    strong traffic, such as Manchester, where I-93 delivered traffic from Boston. Or, Albany and Buffalo,
    which by virtue of the Thruway, effectively gave Southwest access to 90% of New York State population
    living outside of the Metro NYC area.
    But now some serious restructuring is needed. Costs are catching up with WN, and both CNCs and
    competing LCCs are moving ahead of them. The current WN model is starting to resemble a '70 VW
    Beetle - once the standard, but rapidly being out-slicked by other players who are shifting their product.
    Other LCCs have been facing capacity and competitive issues, and have been adjusting with products
    that are, from a perceptual value perspective, better than the no-seat assignment, no frills approach that
    had worked for WN in the past. Others, such as Frontier, were diversifying their fleets to successfully
    access smaller expansion markets that could cross-subsidize routes where they had to compete with
    Southwest. Not having substantial true connect revenue feed puts WN at an increasing disadvantage. In,
    say, Denver, it has had to rely on mostly local O&D revenue. Frontier and United, on the other hand,
    have feed traffic to provide in-cabin revenue premiums where they compete with WN. Toss in the
    differences in product, not to mention WN’s underlying high labor costs, and the picture becomes iffy.
    This is not the 1990s anymore. Success is not guaranteed for Southwest. The good news for Southwest is
    that they recognize this. And that’s not good news for Southwest’s competitors.
    Limits To Adding New 737 Capacity. Up until now, the main Southwest strategy was apparently to
    add airplanes, fly the pants off them, and thereby keep CASM low on the virtue of volume. But that
    strategy is now running out of gas, or more accurately, out of places to fly. The problem was to find
    markets where those extra new seats would have passengers in them, providing a reasonable yield. That
    meant Southwest needed to expand into markets where they would need to slug it out for market share -
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    i.e., go into airports where incumbents might not be easy to compete with. Places like Washington/IAD,
    Philadelphia, and Denver - airports they avoided in the past, because they had easier meat to go after.
    In going into these battle-markets, Southwest, as excellent as it is, is no doubt facing competition that is
    neither easy meat nor ready to concede territory. Not only that, but it's going up against competition that
    can match WN fares, and do so with a more competitive product. The head-'em-up-and-board-'em
    process might work well between Dallas/Love and Lubbock, but in markets where consumers are used to
    seat assignment, not to mention even inflight entertainment systems, it likely doesn’t fly well.
    Going Forward – What To Expect. The first steps have been taken. And more are likely…
    • Re-Jiggering The Route System. They’re pulling down capacity on trans-con and near trans-con
    markets, where the stage lengths tend to level the cost playing field with comprehensive network
    carriers, which have a product more competitive for such long-haul trips. As of this fall,
    Southwest will have reduced 76 flights at various points, and added 90 elsewhere.
    • No More Expansion At Mid-Size Cities? Because Southwest needs to generate stronger revenue
    streams, it would appear that it will concentrate any additional flying in larger markets.
    Exceptions will be places like ABQ, AMA and JAN, which will be used to “bounce” flights into and
    out of Dallas Love Field under the revised Wright Agreement.
    • Try To Take Out Frontier At Denver. Southwest has now likely concluded that since the easy
    expansion markets are pretty much gone, if it is going to grow it will need to fight to establish
    larger traffic shares at certain large airports that are the sites of other carriers’ hub operations.
    They will enter such airports on the basis of where they
    can muscle-in and take share from incumbents, including
    the hubbing airline. Some, like Minneapolis/St.Paul and
    Atlanta, may be too much for Southwest to take on.
    The airport to watch is Denver, where 14 of the additional
    net increase in system frequencies will be seen. Based on
    load factors and local market penetration, it appears that
    Southwest will be attempting an Iraq war-style “surge” to
    hopefully improve their situation at Denver, and – whether pleasant or not – take Frontier out of
    the game. The expansion there by WN (shown on the chart below) is entirely aimed at Frontierserved
    markets. Even Amarillo fits this, with the intent to provide through service to the Dallas-
    Ft.Worth Metroplex, as there is relatively little local AMA-DEN traffic.
    This outlook is buttressed by a review of preliminary Denver schedule filings for the fall. Of
    approximately 50+ WN departures, over 40 represent use of Denver as a mid-point on currentlystrong
    Southwest traffic flows, such as BWI-DEN-SLC. This approach will give additional on-board
    revenue to Denver departures comprised as through traffic, in addition to what local DEN O&D
    Southwest can capture – a passenger segment that has probably not grown as fast as the airline
    may have originally expected. But at this point, there’s a high probability the surge won’t work.
    Given the strength and brand-loyalty that Frontier has established in the Colorado Corridor, the
    WN position at DEN is not success-assured. To date, F9 has hammered WN to a competitive
    standstill, (or worse) at DEN. Add to that F9’s fleet and market diversity – E-Jets and Q-400s –
    and the result is that Frontier can draw on a wider revenue stream than can Southwest. (Accept
    at your peril the trendy nonsense that Southwest’s supposed single-type fleet is better. System
    revenue streams are what count today.)
    In the cards? Seat assignment,
    another fleet type, and a shift
    toward focus on taking market
    share from other carriers.
    Going forward, the assumption that
    Southwest always wins does not
    apply.
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    www.AviationPlanning.com July, 5, 2007 © The Boyd Group, Inc - All Rights Reserved
    • Seat Assignment. Bank on it. At least, Southwest should, because this is where the carrier is
    really at a consumer disadvantage. The value-perception of the WN product v that of Frontier
    and United and other carriers is not particularly comforting. Regardless of the PR about how
    many old-line WN customers want to stay with open seating, the fact is that the new customers
    that they need to attract likely aren’t too thrilled about the uncertainty of subway-style boarding.
    Southwest could try to charge for advance seat assignments, and have the rest of the customers
    check-in at the airport, or at home within a certain period before departure time. However it does
    it, they cannot stick with the current fall-of-Saigon boarding process.
    • Another Fleet Type. The dual-type 737 fleet is in some ways a revenue straight-jacket for
    Southwest. Barring some form of (questionably viable) code-share system, WN isn’t going to get
    any material levels of trans-oceanic feed traffic, such as from China. But the future domestic
    growth markets, such as Shreveport, Flint, and even Golden Triangle, are within the reach of
    Southwest, if it decides to acquire a smaller mainline (not regional) jet fleet. The only game in
    town is the Embraer E-190/195, or, five years down the line, maybe the Bombardier C-Series.
    But, uniquely, Southwest has one major problem in pursuing this. And that’s the Wall Street
    parrots. If Gary Kelly so much as says “Embraer” in a whisper, these clowns could well tank WN
    stock. “Southwest is diverting from its successful one-fleet-type strategy! Doom is at hand!” The
    fact that these people don’t know what they’re talking about won’t make any difference.
    • Pulling Out of Some Markets. Southwest has traditionally not pulled down markets. Beaumont,
    Detroit/City, Denver, and San Francisco lost WN. The latter two are back on the route system –
    not because the main problems that led to them leaving are solved, by the way. They’re back in
    SFO and DEN because they need the traffic, even if costs are high and incumbents may be nasty.
    But don’t be surprised if there are two or three other markets where WN goes into good-bye
    gear, or where it may reduce flights materially. In the latter category, Manchester may be on the
    hit parade. Now that Boston Logan has significant low-fare service, and much improved ground
    access, in the future the reverse-leakage from the BOS metro area may decline.
    Bottom Line: A Stronger Southwest. There are lots of examples where market innovators and
    market leaders have failed simply because they remained too long with “what works now,” and refused
    to consider the future. The VW Beetle was the leading imported
    car in the mid-1960s. Curtiss-Wright was a leading aircraft engine
    manufacturer in the 1950s. Braniff International was the
    innovative darling of Wall Street in the mid-70s, with brilliant
    marketing and break-even load factors in the 40s. Gone, all,
    because they assumed yesterday was the harbinger of the future.
    Southwest does not want to be added to these examples.
    Furthermore, while the airline gets a lot of good press, Southwest
    takes none of it seriously. They are not an airline that pats itself on
    the back. They know that the future isn’t the same as today. Competitors should take note.
    These Shifts Should Not Be A Surprise. So over the next 18 months, watch for fundamental changes
    in how and where Southwest operates. We would point out that while until now, other analysts were
    blindly touting the future of the traditional “Southwest Model,” our trend forecasts identified these
    emerging challenges over a year ago, as well as at our Annual Aviation Forecast Conferences.
    They can be found at http://www.aviationplanning.com/Sout...recast2006.htm. A chart with WN
    market shifts follows on the next page.
    Other than trans-border service,
    don’t expect WN to gain much feed
    from interline agreements with
    international carriers mainly
    because of huge logistical and
    competitive barriers.
    And don’t be surprised if some
    current domestic WN markets are
    pulled down.
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    So you are a transplant, well that explains a lot.
    Yes, I'm a "transplant;" coincidentally, so is AA.

    American Airlines was heaquartered on 3rd Avenue in midtown Mahattan and "transplanted" itself to Ft. Worth in hope of achieving lower labor costs; J.C. Penney moved to Plano from New York around the same time with the same objective.
    Last edited by UptownDallas; 06 July 2007 at 04:55 PM.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    American Airlines Texas roots extend all the way back to the founding of the airline.
    You're right, DFW has played a strong supporting role in AA's network for years... long before they moved the HQ down here from midtown Manhattan.

    I think the move was the right thing for them to do... being able to cut out a lot of the bloated salaries they were paying in New York. One thing I don't know is if relocating executives were actually forced to take a pay cut when they moved from Connecticut, New Jersey or New York down to North Texas.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    American Airlines Texas roots existed long before DFW was thought of.
    There's a history lesson just yearning for expression. I wonder what it is.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon
    There's a history lesson just yearning for expression. I wonder what it is.
    One thing is for sure, whatever Texas Culture, Ethics, and Manors AAmerican may have had decades ago, those were superceded by the big city New York Culture, Ethics, and Manors. It is the New York Culture, Ethics, and Manors that survive, and reflect the AAmerican of today.
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    One thing is for sure, whatever Texas Culture, Ethics, and Manors AAmerican may have had decades ago, those were superceded by the big city New York Culture, Ethics, and Manors. It is the New York Culture, Ethics, and Manors that survive, and reflect the AAmerican of today.
    Funny how American survived and Braniff didn't.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by F4shionablecHa0s
    Funny how American survived and Braniff didn't.
    What do you attribute that to?
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    American Airlines Texas roots existed long before DFW was thought of.
    Yes, you're right... Dallas and Fort Worth had been part of American's route network long before.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Still missed the point.
    ...
    Just like I said American Airlines Texas roots run all the way back to the formation of the airline.
    Ya, until just now, when you explained youself, no one had a chance to catch your point. Thanks for finally sharing that bit of American Airline's history. I prefer upfront full disclosure most of the time, but I also understand that's not your style. So, you know, whatever.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    To give Southwest Airlines a compliment their employees do not seem to be controlled and hampered by the unions. That is the big difference between the two companies. One company has the Texas Mind set and additude that management and employees must work together to accomplish goals. The other company the employees have the additude of entitlement. The Pilots union and the loss of the DFW to Bejing route is a prime example.
    Yeah, that is interesting.

    Earlier today, I read that American had supported a request by Southwest to not require the full compliment of flight attendants to remain on the plane during passenger boarding and deplaning. Southwest's pilot and fa unions also supported the request, yet AA's pilot and fa unions opposed the request (even though AA mgmt was backing it).

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by UptownDallas
    Yeah, that is interesting.

    Earlier today, I read that American had supported a request by Southwest to not require the full compliment of flight attendants to remain on the plane during passenger boarding and deplaning. Southwest's pilot and fa unions also supported the request, yet AA's pilot and fa unions opposed the request (even though AA mgmt was backing it).
    The FAA has just ruled in Southwest's favor. Flight attendants can help with other duties such as escorting unaccompanied minors, helping elderly or handicapped passengers during a stop. Two of the three can leave the aircraft during deplaning, and one can leave during boarding. A pilot must cover the one FA position during boarding. Several other airlines and unions supported this request.
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  15. #315
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    Southwest got mentioned in the July National Geographic issue for using some innovative AI programming to reduce the time inbound flights spent waiting for an open gate at Sky Harbor in Phoenix. The overall article was about how some businesses are using simulations mimicking the kind of collective decision-making characteristic of social insects like ants and bees to improve efficiency.
    Consumers are not [the same as] citizens, and when a system pretends that they are, peculiar and even perverse things happen to decision making and democracy... - Benjamin Barber

  16. #316
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    American to stop Love Field service to two cities
    12:30 PM CDT on Monday, July 16, 2007
    By TERRY MAXON / The Dallas Morning News
    tmaxon@dallasnews.com
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....7f1153cb.html

    American Airlines Inc. will end its regional-jet service from Dallas Love Field to St. Louis and San Antonio on Sept. 5, according to the carrier's schedule.

    At the same time, the Fort Worth-based carrier will double the number of flights to Kansas City, Mo., and Austin, the only other cities it serves out of the Dallas airport.

    All service is provided through its regional affiliate, American Eagle Airlines Inc., or code-sharing partner Trans States Airlines Inc.

    Currently, Trans States offers five flights a day to St. Louis, and American Eagle has four flights daily to Kansas City and Austin and three a day to San Antonio.

    As of Sept. 5, the St. Louis and San Antonio flights are gone, and American Eagle will fly eight times a day to both Kansas City and Austin.

    American Airlines began offering Love Field flights to Kansas City and St. Louis in March 2006 after Congress added Missouri to the states that could be served from Dallas Love Field. American Eagle started up service to Austin and San Antonio.

    In April 2007, American ended the last of its jet service and turned all flights over to the regional partners.

    Southwest Airlines, the only other carrier with non-stop service to those cities, currently offers six non-stop flights to Kansas City and 13 to Austin using larger Boeing 737 jets.

  17. #317
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    American upgrades business class
    Carrier has faced criticism for not upgrading as quickly as some rivals

    12:00 AM CDT on Monday, July 23, 2007
    By SUZANNE MARTA / The Dallas Morning News
    smarta@dallasnews.com The Associated Press contributed to this report.
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...1.35f9c06.html

    American Airlines Inc. unveils its revamped business class seat for its Boeing 777 aircraft today at the National Business Travel Association's annual convention in Boston.

    The Fort Worth-based carrier's first plane outfitted with the seats took its first flight Friday, from Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport to London. The other 46 planes will be retrofitted through the end of 2008.

    It's an important project for American, which has been criticized for being slow to upgrade its business-class seating compared with many of its international rivals. British Airways, for example, introduced lie-flat seats in business class in 2000.

    From D/FW, the planes will be used on routes to Frankfurt, London (Gatwick), Miami, Chicago and Tokyo.

    A spokeswoman for American said the company wasn't disclosing how much it's spending on the project.

    The plush, motorized seat is a modified version of the one the airline developed for its Boeing 767-300 aircraft last year. Those seats, officials said, cost $50,000 per pair.

    Because the 777 is wider than the 767, business-class passengers will get a little more wiggle room. The seats are as wide as 26 inches if both armrests are moved out of the way – 3 inches wider than the 767 version. There's also about 2 inches of extra leg room.

    Other modifications are relatively minor.

    Personal entertainment equipment is fixed into the seatback, but the screens have been expanded and can now tilt for easier viewing while in the recline position.

    Each seat, which was manufactured by Recaro Aircraft Seating Inc. in Fort Worth, also has a personal "glove box" storage area.

    As on the 767, the seatback tray has been expanded to offer more workspace, and the adjustable seats that nearly lie flat have an electronic memory so customers don't have to readjust every time they come back from the lavatory.

    United Airlines, the No. 2 U.S. carrier by traffic, also plans to announce business-class upgrades today.

    This fall, the airline plans to roll out cushier seats that recline flat, larger personal TVs and noise-canceling headphones for long-haul business travelers.

    The Associated Press contributed to this report.

  18. #318
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    American to test in-flight Wi-Fi
    02:43 PM CDT on Wednesday, August 1, 2007
    By TERRY MAXON / The Dallas Morning News
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....d13ec889.html

    American Airlines Inc. plans to launch a test of in-flight Wi-Fi on airplanes in 2008, American and its technology partner said Wednesday.

    “We understand that broadband connectivity is important to our business customers and others who want to use their PDAs and laptops for real-time, inflight broadband communications,” said Dan Garton, American’s executive vice president of marketing. “This is part of our continuing effort to enhance the travel experience for our customers and meet their evolving needs.”

    AirCell, based in Itasca, Ill., said it will provide the high-speed broadband Internet technology for use on American’s U.S. flights. The test will begin next year on Boeing 767-200 airplanes used mainly to fly transcontinental routes. The service will be offered on other airplanes and flights if it proves successful, American and AirCell said.

    “AirCell's new broadband Internet service will allow business and leisure passengers to check e-mail, surf the Web, tap into an office network and stay current on the latest news, using their own Wi-Fi enabled laptops, PDAs, iPhones, BlackBerrys and portable gaming systems -- while in flight,” the company said.

    “Travelers are already bringing their own Wi-Fi enabled devices onto planes,” AirCell chief executive officer Jack Blumenstein said.

    “Bringing broadband access onto domestic flights at an everyday, affordable price provides travelers the opportunity to recapture time. Making productive use of the time in the air will give them time back on the ground with family or just relaxing,” Mr. Blumenstein said.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by njjeppson
    American to test in-flight Wi-Fi
    02:43 PM CDT on Wednesday, August 1, 2007
    By TERRY MAXON / The Dallas Morning News
    Southwest reaching for Wi-Fi in sky
    By Kelly Yamanouchi
    Denver Post Staff Writer
    Article Last Updated: 04/20/2007 02:26:54 AM MDT

    Southwest Airlines is exploring how to put Wi-Fi Internet service on its airplanes, as the no-frills carrier seeks to add some frills.

    http://www.denverpost.com/portal/ci_5708425
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  20. #320
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    Gary Kelly on the Today Show

    Tune in tomorrow morning (Friday, August 3) to the NBC Today Show to see Southewest CEO Gary Kelly featured in a live interview! The Today Show is spending the month of August focusing on the airline industry, and they have invited several airline CEOs on the show to share their industry and company perspectives on all the hot issues, including service, travel trends, and delays.

    Gary will be interviewed during the second hour of the show. As of now, he is scheduled to be featured in-studio with one of the Today Show anchors beginning at 8:19 a.m. (regardless of time zone). It airs live on the East Coast and then is tape-delayed for airing across the country. Check your local listings for your NBC affiliate!
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    And here comes Southwest. :errrr:

    Well, by golly we told ya we was gunna do it first!!!!!!!!!!!dagnabit!!!!!!!!!!!!!





    :roflmao2:
    Not sure I'm getting your point, exactly.

    Here's an except from this week's PC World article:

    American Airlines Inc. will test in-flight Wi-Fi services across the U.S. starting next year, according to the airline and its Wi-Fi provider AirCell LLC.

    Other airlines are reported by Engadget and others to have expressed interest or have planned tests for 2008 with similar in-flight technology, including Deutsche Lufthansa AG, Southwest Airlines Co. and Qantas Airways Ltd.


    Southwest announced this awhile back, American is now doing the same. What's the big deal, here?

  22. #322
    Mile-High Skyscraper Member rantanamo's Avatar
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    Testing >>>>> interest

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    http://www.engadget.com/search/?q=in-flight+wifi

    Side notes:

    Drill down to the user comments on these various articles.

    Picture the various airlines Flight Attendants responses to customers when the customer has connectivity, or any other wi-fi related problems in flight.
    Tasking Flight Attendants as level 1 help desk technicians should prove interesting.

    Oh and then there is always the social impact, when the laptop screen in the seat next to a customer with kids fills with porn.
    Last edited by TexasPlus; 03 August 2007 at 04:40 PM.
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  24. #324
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    There is no comparison. Everytime I fly, Southwest has AA beat by 100 bucks easy. Southwest wins hands down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Just laughing at the prevelent anti American additude present on this forum.

    No good press for AA goes unchallenged.
    Well, I think it's great that AA is trying this out.

  26. #326
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Remember the TITLE of this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    No good press for AA goes unchallenged.
    Perhaps you simply missed the TITLE of this thread. "Comparing Southwest & American Airlines"

    The http://www.thefreedictionary.com/comparing lists the following as it's defenition of "Comparing"

    thefreedictionary.com
    com·pare (km-pâr)
    v. com·pared, com·par·ing, com·pares
    v.tr.
    1. To consider or describe as similar, equal, or analogous; liken.
    2. To examine in order to note the similarities or differences of.
    3. Grammar To form the positive, comparative, or superlative degree of (an adjective or adverb).

    v.intr.
    1. To be worthy of comparison; bear comparison: two concert halls that just do not compare.
    2. To draw comparisons.
    n.
    Comparison: a musician beyond compare.
    Idiom:
    compare notes
    To exchange ideas, views, or opinions.
    [Middle English comparen, from Old French comparer, from Latin comparre, from compr, equal : com-, com- + pr, equal; see per-2 in Indo-European roots.]
    com·parer n.
    Usage Note: Compare usually takes the preposition to when it refers to the activity of describing the resemblances between unlike things: He compared her to a summer day. Scientists sometimes compare the human brain to a computer. It takes with when it refers to the act of examining two like things in order to discern their similarities or differences: The police compared the forged signature with the original. The committee will have to compare the Senate's version of the bill with the version that was passed by the House. When compare is used to mean "to liken (one) with another," with is traditionally held to be the correct preposition: That little bauble is not to be compared with (not to) this enormous jewel. But to is frequently used in this context and is not incorrect.
    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2003. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

    ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms
    Noun 1. comparingcomparing - examining resemblances or differences
    comparison
    examination, scrutiny - the act of examining something closely (as for mistakes)
    likening - the act of comparing similarities
    analogy - drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect; "the operation of a computer presents and interesting analogy to the working of the brain"; "the models show by analogy how matter is built up"
    collation - careful examination and comparison to note points of disagreement
    confrontation - a focussed comparison; bringing together for a careful comparison
    contrast - the act of distinguishing by comparing differences
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Just laughing at the prevelent anti American additude present on this forum.

    No good press for AA goes unchallenged.
    As is everyone else laughing at your anti-Southwest attitude and your resulting attitude toward Dallas Love Field. The only difference is, we know why you feel this way, years of whoring yourself out has accumulated you lots of AAdvantage miles.

    Jason

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    American Airlines has received two awards in Global Traveler magazine' annual "Wines on the Wing" Class Airline Wine Competition.

    It nabbed first place in the "Best International Business Class White Wine" category, for its J. Wegeler-Erben Riesling Spatlese Bernkasteler Doctor 2004; and second place in the "Best International Business Class Red Wine" for its Chateau Batailley Pauillac 2003.

    The competition was a blind taste test with 25 airlines submitting two white wines, two reds, and one sparkler, a tasting organized by Global Traveler's wine columnist Eunice Fried, with 36 independent judges participating.

    American Airlines' wine consultant is Diane Teitelbaum, an international wine-judging professional, connoisseur, and columnist based in Dallas. Recently, American announced that First and Business Class customers onboard transcontinental flights can savor specific wine recommendations -- offered by Teitelbaum -- with select premium cabin menu entrees.

    For those flying in First and Business Class, American maintains 15 different wine lists specially selected for various routes. The airline changes its wine list regularly and produces an online pamphlet describing each route's selections. For more information and to view the current list of American's award-winning wines, please visit www.aa.com/wine

    Earlier this year, American received accolades for its wine program in the "Cellars in the Sky 2006 Awards" conducted by Business Traveller and Wine & Spirit magazine, winning "Best First Class Wine Cellar" for overall selection, and "Wild Card Wine" for its Lustau La Plaza Vieja sherry.

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    ^Awesome!!

  30. #330
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    Southwest on pace to top AA in traffic
    08:04 AM CDT on Friday, August 17, 2007
    Associated Press
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ic.18def5.html

    WASHINGTON – Southwest Airlines Co. is on pace to unseat American Airlines this year as the world's biggest airline, measured by passenger traffic.

    The domestic-only discount carrier already has eclipsed American's combined domestic and international traffic during the first five months of 2007, according to a government tally released Thursday.

    Southwest carried 40.3 million passengers on domestic routes between January and May, an increase of 4.2 percent from last year.

    "We're thrilled to watch our customer base grow," said Brandy King, a Southwest spokewoman, who attributed the growth to the company's tradition of friendly customer service. "With so many airlines offering low fares, I think customer service makes all the difference in the world."

    American, owned by AMR Corp., carried 40 million passengers during the January-May period, down 1.8 percent from last year's levels. American's international traffic for that five month period was 8.7 million, up 0.3 percent in the first five months; its domestic traffic of 31.3 million was down 2.4 percent.

    Last year, Dallas-based Southwest was the No. 2 airline worldwide, according to International Air Transport Association passenger traffic statistics. It carried about 96.3 million passengers, ranking behind Fort Worth, Texas-based American, which carried about 100 million passengers.

  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by njjeppson
    Southwest on pace to top AA in traffic
    08:04 AM CDT on Friday, August 17, 2007
    Associated Press
    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ic.18def5.html
    Thanks to the Wright Amendment, the citizens of Dallas have missed out on virtually all the benefits associated with this phenomenal growth story.

  32. #332
    Super Moderator Tnekster's Avatar
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    So is the increased traffic at Love a significant contributing factor into SW passing AA?

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    do we know how much the traffic has increased at Love Field?

  34. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by lpepping
    do we know how much the traffic has increased at Love Field?
    Southwest passenger traffic is up 30% with minimal new flights.

    AA appears to be in the latter stages of pulling out entirely.

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    Interesting USA Today comparison of AA & WN in Dallas

    http://www.usatoday.com/travel/colum...-reports_N.htm

    The divergence in Dallas

    American's notable decline in systemwide reliability in recent months continued in June. But American officials are quick to blame those aforementioned North Texas storms, which created havoc at its Dallas/Fort Worth hub. Plausible as that one-month excuse may sound, the numbers may not support it. Why? Just 12 miles away at Dallas/Love Field, where Southwest Airlines is king, the weather apparently wasn't as much of an obstacle. Because of the way the DOT reports the numbers, exact comparisons are difficult. But consider: American ran at 57.5% on-time at DFW and American Eagle was at 53.1%. At Love, however, the airport managed a 66.4% on-time rating—and virtually all of the flights there are operated by Southwest. DOT does not break out cancellations by airport, but American Eagle cancelled 5.9% of its systemwide flights in June while American cancelled 3.7% of its flights. But Southwest cancelled just 0.4% of its June flights. If the weather was such a distracting factor in Dallas, why were American/American Eagle's cancellations so large and Southwest's so small?

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Had the same number of storms with the same severity tracked directly over Love Field as what tracked directly over DFW Southwest would have had cancellations proportional to the number of flights handled by the airport just like what American experienced at DFW.
    Are you saying that unless a storm tracks "directly over" an airport, it won't cause flight cancellations?

    :huhcld:


    What about flight delays, does your theory apply equally to flight delays?
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Had the same number of storms with the same severity tracked directly over Love Field as what tracked directly over DFW Southwest would have had cancellations proportional to the number of flights handled by the airport just like what American experienced at DFW.
    Let's say for just a moment that there is some truth to your theory that the storms had an unequal impact to operability of each airport (8 miles apart). This is yet another reason why its a bad idea to concentrate all airline operations at one airport.

  38. #338
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    I think it's engaging to compare these two airlines, and the arguements can be interesting, but I really like dwelling on the fact that the worlds' two busiest airlines are both based in North Texas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DallasNative
    Let's say for just a moment that there is some truth to your theory that the storms had an unequal impact to operability of each airport (8 miles apart). This is yet another reason why its a bad idea to concentrate all airline operations at one airport.
    True, but this idea is complicated in terms of managing air traffic patterns and flow when the 'reliever' airport is only 8 miles away with different runway headings.

  40. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    True, but this idea is complicated in terms of managing air traffic patterns and flow when the 'reliever' airport is only 8 miles away with different runway headings.
    Agreed. But "complicated" doesn't equal "bad."

  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by UptownDallas
    Agreed. But "complicated" doesn't equal "bad."
    When you can't have as many planes taking off and landing per hour because of these flow complications, that isn't a plus in my book.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    When you can't have as many planes taking off and landing per hour because of these flow complications, that isn't a plus in my book.
    Keep in mind most of the (as you put it) "flow complications" are on DAL, not DFW.

    But RNP will relive that in a big way, and not only at DAL but system wide. You may recall my previous posting on RNP.
    Southwest has taken the lead in committing to a rapid fleet/route wide implementation of this new technology.
    I guess the rest of the (cash strapped) airlines will play catchup in a few years.

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...aw052107p2.xml

    http://www.naverus.com/Customers/Southwest.htm

    Goggle Southwest RNP for more info
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  43. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    Keep in mind most of the (as you put it) "flow complications" are on DAL, not DFW.

    But RNP will relive that in a big way, and not only at DAL but system wide. You may recall my previous posting on RNP.
    Southwest has taken the lead in committing to a rapid fleet/route wide implementation of this new technology.
    I guess the rest of the (cash strapped) airlines will play catchup in a few years.

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...aw052107p2.xml

    http://www.naverus.com/Customers/Southwest.htm

    Goggle Southwest RNP for more info
    Thanks for the info and links. RNP sounds like it will definitely help with delays and cancellations. Good news.

  44. #344
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    American Airlines Jets Google To Court

    http://claranet.scu.edu/tempfiles/tm...ecomplaint.pdf

    American isn't thrilled that competitors and travel sites can bid on its company name as a keyword. Though the competitor-keyword argument has been made before, this may be a first where the plaintiff cites online retailers selling competitor wares.

    It would appear, if the suit were successful, Coke could sue television stations advertising that 7-11 sells Pepsi too.

    American complains that competitor keyword bidding and the ad display associated with the keywords are tantamount to getting a "free ride on American Airlines' brands through use of Google's technology," and that Google is guilty of "vicarious trademark infringement."

    In the 55-page complaint, American asserts that "Google's 'Sponsored Links' may instead redirect [searchers] to: (i) websites of airlines that compete with American Airlines; (ii) websites that sell air travel not only on American Airlines, but also on a variety of airlines that compete with American Airlines; or (iii) websites that are entirely unrelated air travel."

    It may be the second argument that's disturbing to many. Technology and Law Blog's Eric Goldman is also skeptical:

    http://www.webpronews.com/insiderrep...oogle-to-court


    …my working theory is that this was not a good lawsuit for American Airlines to bring. I've noted many times before that lawsuits over consumer "diversion" often cost more than the lost profits from the allegedly diverted consumers.


    http://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives...can_airlin.htm
    Last edited by TexasPlus; 25 August 2007 at 10:41 AM. Reason: added URL
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  45. #345
    In the O.R. Geaux Tigers's Avatar
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    I saw this at American's web site...

    American Will Be First U.S. Airline to Launch AirCell's Real-Time Broadband Connectivity

    American Airlines has signed a memorandum of intent with AirCell, LLC, to be the first U.S. airline to test the capability of providing passengers with AirCell's high-speed broadband connectivity. The test will be conducted in 2008 on American's Boeing 767-200 aircraft that primarily fly transcontinental routes.

    "We understand that broadband connectivity is important to our business customers and others who want to use their PDAs and laptops for real-time, inflight broadband communications," said Dan Garton, American's Executive Vice President - Marketing. "This is part of our continuing effort to enhance the travel experience for our customers and meet their evolving needs."

    The solution will provide passengers with a high-speed Internet connection, VPN access and e-mail capabilities through Wi-Fi-enabled laptops and PDA devices. The system has the ability to adapt as technology evolves. The technology will be available in all classes of the B767-200 aircraft for a fee. If the connectivity solution is successful, it could be extended to the rest of American's domestic fleet.

    "We are excited to provide solutions that will give American Airlines passengers the opportunity to make high-speed Internet connections from unprecedented heights," Garton said. "We consider it a 30,000-foot answer to many of our business travelers' needs."

    The technology from AirCell is subject to strict requirements set forth by the Federal Aviation Administration through an exclusive license from the Federal Communications Commission. Both agencies oversee the use of broadband and wireless signals by aircraft flying over the continental United States.

    The technology will use three antennas installed on the outside of the aircraft (two on the bottom of the aircraft and one on top.) AirCell will provide cellular towers throughout the continental United States to transmit the signal. The signals received inside the cabin will be 802.11a/b/g Wi-Fi signals.

    This is the latest in a series of moves by American in the past two years to enhance the customer experience by investing in its terminals, products, global route network, and services. Always at the forefront of technology in the industry, American was the first airline to liberalize its cell-phone policy and among the first airlines to introduce global satellite phone service on international flights.
    By the power of greyskull!

  46. #346
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    I have never understood this thread. Its like comparing apples and oranges. If I want a direct flight to London its an easy choice, AA. When I want to be treated like cattle, I will fly cowboywest again.

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    I have never understood this thread. Its like comparing apples and oranges. If I want a direct flight to London its an easy choice, AA. When I want to be treated like cattle, I will fly cowboywest again.
    Perhaps the reason Southwest is always at or near the top in customer satisfaction year after year is because they do not offer the AAmerican standard... "Service with a Snarl" (SWAS).

    As far as being treated like cattle I have never felt that way more than the last four times we were standing in the long AAmerican check in lines at DFW. We were flying to the Caribbean via San Juan, and the CS agents constant barking at the folks waiting in line was most revolting. On the flights themselves, the cabin crews were mostly indifferent to the passengers. It was much the same three years ago retuning from Amsterdam via Gatwick to DFW. The BA leg out of Amsterdam was great friendly service, the AAmerican Gatwick to DFW leg was standard SWAS.

    To someone used to the friendly atmosphere of the entire Southwest experience the contrast is always startling.

    Your millage may vary, but that has been mine...
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  48. #348
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    Flight attendants play off of their passengers. If you are nice and respectable they will be the same. I have never had an issue with a flight attendant nor anyone on a plane. The issue I have is there is a location I would rather sit on a plane, yet you can not pick your seat on cowboywest. I also refuse to have people file past me, standing around me, thus I am always the last one to board a flight. Which makes for interesting times when you do not have an assigned seat.

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    Flight attendants play off of their passengers. If you are nice and respectable they will be the same. I have never had an issue with a flight attendant nor anyone on a plane.
    I was Executive Platinum on AA for years and could tell literally dozens of stories of mis-directed anger, passive-aggressive episodes, etc. directed by staff towards innocent passengers.

    Indeed, AA produced an in-house training video which documented a lot of the more "standardized" techniques of harrassment.

    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    The issue I have is there is a location I would rather sit on a plane, yet you can not pick your seat on cowboywest.
    Unless you book a year in advance, you can't pick any seat you want on American, either. You simply get to pick an available seat from the seating chart on their website.

    Boarding in the A group on Southwest, I find that my choice of seats is far greater than what I can get by using the advance seat selector feature on AA.
    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    I also refuse to have people file past me, standing around me, thus I am always the last one to board a flight.
    This seems like the bigger issue, and you might indeed like AA better... where the staff tend to share your anti-social tendencies.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    I have never understood this thread. Its like comparing apples and oranges. If I want a direct flight to London its an easy choice, AA. When I want to be treated like cattle, I will fly cowboywest again.
    It's been my experience, and I'd say shared by 90% of the traveling public, that you fly AA when there is no other nonstop alternative and you fly Southwest as your first nonstop preference.

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