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Thread: Southwest & American Airlines

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    I was wondering why the crowd suddenly got quiet? Lets try again!
    I suspect most people just can't be bothered with you, but... here goes.

    First of all, a link to the report you cited is here: http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/repor...200801atcr.pdf

    Now, let's go through it methodically. First of all, citing raw numbers is irrelevant and misleading, since Southwest is a [u]significantly larger air carrier than American.
    More specifically, Table 9 states that they have the following number of records to work with for each airline:
    American 51,229
    American Eagle 44,175
    Southwest 97,798

    To adjust for Southwest's much larger size, the correct focus shoud be on percentage of flights.

    Table 1. Percent of On Time Arrivals (November only)
    Southwest 84.5% (tied for 4th place out of 20)
    American Eagle 76.7% (tied for 17th place)
    American Airlines 75.6% (tied for 19th place)

    Table 2. Percent of On Time Arrivals (12 months ending November)
    Southwest 80.5% (3rd place)
    American Eagle 70.0% (15th place)
    Ameerican 69.4% (16th place)

    Table 5. List of Regularly Scheduled Flights Arriving Late 80% of the Time or More
    No Southwest flights listed
    American #350 ORD-LGA (averages 56 minutes late)
    American #1497 EWR-ORD (averages 51 minutes late)
    American #1271 EWR-ORD (averages 66 minutes late)
    American #1121 RDU-LGA (averages 60 minutes late)
    American #360 ORD-LGA (averages 52 minutes late)

    As an aside, here are the number of flights listed in the table for other airlines:
    Airtran
    Alaska
    Aloha
    American - 5
    American Eagle - 0
    ATA - 0
    Atlantic Southeast - 0
    Comair - 0
    Continental - 1
    Delta - 0
    ExpressJet - 10
    Frontier - 0
    Hawaiian - 0
    Jetblue - 0
    Mesa - 1
    Northwest - 5
    Pinnacle - 0
    Skywest - 0
    Southwest - 0
    United - 2
    US Airways - 0

    Table 6. Percentage of Regularly Scheduled Flights Late 70% or the Time or More
    Southwest 0.1% (7th place)
    American 0.8% (tied for 15th place)
    American Eagle 0.8% (tied for 15th place)

    Table 7. On-Time Arrival and Departure % by Airport

    (Dallas airports are listed, just for information)

    Percent on-Time Arrivals
    Love Field 84.5%
    DFW 81.4%

    Percent on-Time Departures
    Love Field 80.2%
    DFW 78.4%

    Table 8. Percent of Operations Cancelled
    Southwest 0.6% (5th place)
    American 1.1% (tied for 11th place)
    American Eagle 1.7% (19th place)

    Table 9. Causes of Delay by Carrier

    Percent on-Time Arrivals
    Southwest 84.5% (4th place)
    American Eagle 76.7% (17th place)
    American Airlines 75.6% (19th place)

    Percent Cancelled
    Southwest 0.58% (4th place)
    American 1.06% (11th place)
    American Eagle 1.67% (19th place)

    Percent Diverted
    American 0.08% (tied for 2nd place)
    American Eagle 0.12% (tied for 8th place)
    Southwest 0.12% (tied for 8th place)

    Percent of Flights Delayed due to Air Carrier
    Southwest 3.45% (4th place)
    American Eagle 5.36% (13th place)
    American 6.15% (15th place)

    Percent of Flights Delayed due to Extreme Weather
    Southwest 0.29%
    American Eagle 0.42%
    American 0.57%

    Percent of Flights Delayed due to National Aviation System Congestion
    Southwest 2.89%
    American Eagle 7.02%
    American 9.31%

    Percent of Flights Delayed due to Security
    American Eagle 0.00%
    American 0.01%
    Southwest 0.04%

    Percent of Flights Delayed due to Late Arriving Aircraft
    American 7.23% (15th place)
    Southwest 8.15% (17th place)
    American Eagle 8.71% (19th place)

    Mishandled Baggage Complaints (per 1,000 pax)
    Southwest 4.56 (10th place)
    American 5.36 (11th place)
    American Eagle 9.24 (last place)

    Involuntary Denied Boardings (per 10,000 pax)
    American 0.78 (7th place)
    American Eagle 1.15 (10th place)
    Southwest 1.16 (11th place)

    Consumer Complaints (per 100,000 emplanements)
    Southwest 0.24 (tied for 2nd place)
    American Eagle 0.79 (11th place)
    American 1.15 (16th place)

    PuddinHead, I can't for the life of me figure out why you would want anyone to look at these reports. American and American Eagle come out looking terrible across the board.
    Last edited by UptownDallas; 13 January 2008 at 12:29 AM.

  2. #452
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    For all airports that both AA and SWA serve, there is not one instance where AA had a better DOT on time arrival rate than SWA.

    http://aviation.beloblog.com/archive...ove_field.html

    Here’s a comparison of all the airports that both American and Southwest serve and which have their November on-time stats reported to the DOT:

    City American Southwest
    Baltimore 80.2% 87.7%
    Denver 73.0% 86.0%
    Detroit 78.9% 87.0%
    Fort Lauderdale 82.8% 89.5%
    Washington Dulles 79.2% 86.3%
    Las Vegas 72.9% 82.7%
    Los Angeles 68.8% 79.4%
    Orlando 75.9% 90.6%
    Oakland 80.7% 85.2%
    Porland, Oregon 68.0% 84.5%
    Philadelphia 65.8% 75.8%
    Phoenix 71.5% 83.0%
    San Diego 73.4% 82.8%
    Seattle-Tacoma 70.7% 84.7%
    San Francisco 66.9% 75.2%
    Salt Lake City 80.9% 85.7%
    St. Louis 80.8% 86.0%
    Tampa 80.8% 89.9%

  3. #453
    Skyscraper Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    January 15, 2008
    Memo Pad
    Big Fare Increases, Crowded Planes, and More Delays
    By JOE SHARKEY

    BIG FARE INCREASES After United Airlines raised domestic fares across the board by $50 a round trip on Friday, most major carriers quickly followed with similar increases on many routes, according to FareCompare.com. The reason was sharply higher fuel costs. Delta Air Lines raised its round-trip fares by $50 immediately after United’s move. American Airlines also posted $50 round-trip increases on 55 percent of its route system, though "conspicuously absent" are increases on its routes that overlap with many Southwest Airlines routes, said Rick Seaney, the chief executive of FareCompare.com. Then on Monday, Northwest Airlines also joined in the $50 increase on most of its routes. Continental Airlines, which initially raised fares by $50 on some routes on Friday, withdrew the increases Monday morning, but Mr. Seaney said it was unclear whether Continental might reverse course again soon. This was the second broad fare increase in 2008, and the 10th since last Labor Day, Mr. Seaney said, adding: "It seems the legacy airlines, United in particular, are forgoing the nickel-and-dime strategy of increases every few weeks and are going for the whole enchilada at one time."

    Full story @ http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/bu...er=MARKETWATCH
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  4. #454
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    The LUV Bear Is Out of Hibernation

    The Boyd Group Advantage

    Aviation Insight & Perspectives
    Available Nowhere Else
    ____________

    Hot Flash - Monday, January 14, 2008

    Southwest Spring Schedule
    The LUV Bear Is Out of Hibernation

    The Boyd Group has noted that Southwest will be the industry's most dangerous airline competitor in the coming 18 months. It's now coming to pass.

    Not because of the value of its traditional operational model, which lightweight analysts consistently mischaracterize with terms like "regional" or "short haul" or their favorite, "point to point," - all of which are inaccurate - but because Southwest understands the weaknesses in that traditional model.

    They've moved to position themselves as an airline perfect for business travelers. Not that they ever eschewed such traffic (take a gander at the folks in line at Love Field on Monday mornings) but now they're re-structuring and re-positioning to claw that sector away from other airlines with new advertising, new fare products and a revised boarding system that's still a long way from seat selection, but is no longer as reminiscent of lunchtime at the feed lot.

    Cross Feed & Emerging Business Travel Flows. Their spring schedule change is also a major shift - they're repositioning again to capture more cross-flows over Denver, instead of Phoenix and Las Vegas. Repositioning to some degree from price-based flying into more focus on inter-connecting large business centers.

    Airports:USA(R) has accomplished an analysis of the spring schedule change. On the surface, it merely might look like just a new focus on Denver, which it is. But how it was accomplished tells a wider story.


    Full story @
    http://www.aviationplanning.com/asrc1.htm
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  5. #455
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    The point was that AA, CO, UA, DL and NW all have delays due to the airport system. If WN served the same airports in the same markets as they should be they would have the same results.
    So, is Southwest smart to avoid systemic problems, or are AA, CO, UA, DL dumb not to?

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    The point was that AA, CO, UA, DL and NW all have delays due to the airport system. If WN served the same airports in the same markets as they should be they would have the same results.
    Comparing just the legacy carriers, the on-time rankings are as follows:
    1) Delta
    2) Southwest
    3) US Airways
    4) Northwest
    5) Continental
    6) American Eagle
    7) American
    8) United

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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    The point was that AA, CO, UA, DL and NW all have delays due to the airport system. If WN served the same airports in the same markets as they should be they would have the same results.
    All you are saying is that the carriers with poor on time performance are choosing to have bad on time performance, since you've clearly demonstrated that Southwest is choosing to operate in such a manner that they will not have bad on time performance.

  8. #458
    Skyscraper Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    AA's Newest Flight Attendant

    At least she is qualified for this position. :jester:

    http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?vid...ame%3D%22wmode
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by UptownDallas
    True, but passenger counts were up, PFCs were up, airport revenues were up, and the airport ended up with a record surplus.

    In other words, yes, there was less flight activity, but this was more than offset by increased passenger loads and the ancillary revenues associated therewith.
    With all due respect UptownDallas, I think your statement is only half right.

    Where are you getting your info that passenger counts were up? DFW has yet to report passenger totals for November or December.

    http://www.dfwairport.com/stats/

    Through the first 10 months of the year the total passenger count at DFW stood at 50,111,083 which was 443,157 less than the same time period for 2006.

    As to your claim that PFC's were up, It's only the enplaned passengers that generate a PFC and according to the Dallas Business Journal:

    D/FW had 23.4 million enplaned passengers. That was down 0.7 percent from the 23.62 million passengers enplaned at D/FW through the first 10 months of 2006.

    I do agree with you that airport revenues were up. More O&D passengers mean more revenue from parking - a big source of revenue for DFW and I also agree that the airport ended up with a record surplus.

    LoneStarMike

  10. #460
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStarMike
    With all due respect UptownDallas, I think your statement is only half right.

    Where are you getting your info that passenger counts were up? DFW has yet to report passenger totals for November or December.

    http://www.dfwairport.com/stats/

    Through the first 10 months of the year the total passenger count at DFW stood at 50,111,083 which was 443,157 less than the same time period for 2006.
    Lone Star Mike, you are 100% correct. Although I was looking at the same table as you, I inadvertently picked up the number reported in cell T64, which shows the increase in 2008FYTD over 2007FYTD.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStarMike
    As to your claim that PFC's were up, It's only the enplaned passengers that generate a PFC and according to the Dallas Business Journal:

    D/FW had 23.4 million enplaned passengers. That was down 0.7 percent from the 23.62 million passengers enplaned at D/FW through the first 10 months of 2006.
    Again, LoneStarMike, you are right. Even if I had used the correct traffic number, that is the wrong number to use.... only enplaned traffic generates PFCs.

    Apologies for the sloppy work.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStarMike
    I do agree with you that airport revenues were up. More O&D passengers mean more revenue from parking - a big source of revenue for DFW and I also agree that the airport ended up with a record surplus.
    Ultimately, I suppose we'll just have to wait for the release of the 2007 financials. Like you, I think we'll see a big pick-up in parking revs... I also suspect that retail rent revenues should be up smartly.... landing fees down or flat.... PFCs roughly flat.
    Last edited by UptownDallas; 27 January 2008 at 01:51 PM.

  11. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    Thats every airline, a few weeks back flying to msy we waited over an hour for a flight to push back. I was flying south west we were the last flight of the night and there was a flight that was connecting with us that was running very late. So we sat there and waited for them. Great for the connecting passengers, bad for me who had a date that night. Though they did sell liquor to us as we waited.
    Southwest held the plane on the second-to-last flight of the night this time around.

    We had to wait 25 minutes for 30 passengers (even the flight attendants were a bit miffed... I could hear them expressing their dismay in the forward galley). And not a word of apology for the inconvenience from the crew. With this extra time, I began to think about a bit of hypocrisy in Southwest's policy.

    If I decide that it would be convenient for me to alter my agreement with the airline and depart on an earlier flight, Southwest makes me pay the difference between what was initially charged and full fare. If Southwest, however, decides it would be convenient for them to alter our agreement and depart later than originally stated (for reasons unrelated to weather or safety), they don't give me any of my money back for the inconvenience.

    While I realize this isn't a major calamity in the big scheme of things, this practice is very annoying, especially when you eschew booking the last flight of the night to avoid the delay.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    Southwest held the plane on the second-to-last flight of the night this time around.

    We had to wait 25 minutes for 30 passengers (even the flight attendants were a bit miffed... I could hear them expressing their dismay in the forward galley). And not a word of apology for the inconvenience from the crew. With this extra time, I began to think about a bit of hypocrisy in Southwest's policy.

    If I decide that it would be convenient for me to alter my agreement with the airline and depart on an earlier flight, Southwest makes me pay the difference between what was initially charged and full fare. If Southwest, however, decides it would be convenient for them to alter our agreement and depart later than originally stated (for reasons unrelated to weather or safety), they don't give me any of my money back for the inconvenience.

    While I realize this isn't a major calamity in the big scheme of things, this practice is very annoying, especially when you eschew booking the last flight of the night to avoid the delay.
    Although I don't doubt that these incidents occurred (and I would be irritated as well, if I was an affected passenger), I think it is important to view these incidents with a sense of perspective.

    According to the DOT's most recent report, Southwest has a relatively good record of "air carrier delays."

    1) AirTran (3.16%)
    2) JetBlue (3.34%)
    3) Delta (3.41%)
    4) Southwest (3.45%)
    5) Continental (3.52%)
    6) Hawaiian (3.97%)
    7) ExpressJet (4.14%)
    8) Aloha (4.27%)
    9) Frontier (4.58%)
    10) Pinnacle (NW Airlink) (4.77%)
    11) US Airways (4.90%)
    12) United (5.33%)
    13) American Eagle (5.36%)
    14) Northwest (5.75%)
    15) American (6.15%)
    16) Alaska (6.16%)
    17) Comair (Delta Connection) (7.90%)
    18) SkyWest (Delta Connection & United Express) (8.10%)
    19) Mesa (Delta Connection, United Express & US Airways Express) (9.38%)
    20) Atlantic Southeast Airlines (Delta Connection) (12.51%)

    Source: Air Travel Consumer Report (Table 9), Office of Aviaion Enforcement and Proceedings, Aviation Consumer Protection Division, U.S. Department of Transportation, January, 2008

  13. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by UptownDallas
    Although I don't doubt that these incidents occurred (and I would be irritated as well, if I was an affected passenger), I think it is important to view these incidents with a sense of perspective.

    According to the DOT's most recent report, Southwest has a relatively good record of "air carrier delays."
    No doubt. This phenomenon, at least in my experience, only affects the late night flights. That said, often times the delays are under the 15-minute window that the DOT allows before declaring a flight truly 'delayed'.

    Again, not a big deal in the great scheme of things, but annoying considering that Southwest insists on taking money from me to leave 30 minutes earlier (on a flight going out with empty seats), yet won't reimburse me any funds when they decide to leave later.

    Too bad I'm too cheap (or perhaps too fiscally responsible?) to pay full fare.

  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    Again, not a big deal in the great scheme of things, but annoying considering that Southwest insists on taking money from me to leave 30 minutes earlier (on a flight going out with empty seats), yet won't reimburse me any funds when they decide to leave later.
    Very good point.

  15. #465
    Incoherent Rambler grantboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    No doubt. This phenomenon, at least in my experience, only affects the late night flights. That said, often times the delays are under the 15-minute window that the DOT allows before declaring a flight truly 'delayed'.

    Again, not a big deal in the great scheme of things, but annoying considering that Southwest insists on taking money from me to leave 30 minutes earlier (on a flight going out with empty seats), yet won't reimburse me any funds when they decide to leave later.

    Too bad I'm too cheap (or perhaps too fiscally responsible?) to pay full fare.
    They can even get around the 15 minute rule if they just push back from the gate and sit on the apron or runway for hours on end. Granted, that won't result in an on time arrival, but as far as the FAA is concerned, if the plane has pushed back within 15 mins of its scheduled departure time, it's an "on time departure."

    I'm rather surprised Southwest doesn't have the free same day confirmed standby for earlier flghts. Hell, even easyjet, who charges $4 for a cup of tea or coffee and sometimes $20 for a checked bag does that.

  16. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantboston
    They can even get around the 15 minute rule if they just push back from the gate and sit on the apron or runway for hours on end. Granted, that won't result in an on time arrival, but as far as the FAA is concerned, if the plane has pushed back within 15 mins of its scheduled departure time, it's an "on time departure."
    Yes, but that kind of defeats the purpose. They can't board passengers if they aren't at the gate.

    If they leave the gate and then return, it gets picked up as an irregular operation.

    Also, if Southwest were engaging in this sort of activity, it would seem likely that a large number of complaints would be triggered. In fact, the DOT receives relatively few complaints relating to Southwest. In November, for example, the DOT only received 0.24 complaints per 100,000 emplanements at Southwest. In contrast, American Airlines received 1.15 complaints per 100,000 emplanements.

    Drilling down further, looking only at complaints falling into the category of "Flight Problems," we see that the DOT only received 0.05 complaints per 100,000 emplanements at Southwest versus 0.39 complaints per 100,000 emplanements at American.

  17. #467
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    Southwest held the plane on the second-to-last flight of the night this time around.

    We had to wait 25 minutes for 30 passengers (even the flight attendants were a bit miffed... I could hear them expressing their dismay in the forward galley). And not a word of apology for the inconvenience from the crew.
    .
    Look at this from the other viewpoints for a moment.

    The crew had an input, but likely did not make the final call on waiting. When operations/dispatch makes a decision like this, they are doing a balancing act. Do they inconvenience 100 people for 25 min, or do they force 30 people to be put up in a hotel overnight, delaying their getting to their destination until the next day? In addition there might be a domino effect, by forcing yet others originally booked on the next morning flight to take a later flight if the morning flight was already full.

    If I were one of the 30 people, I would be glad they made the call they did. Southwest does empower it's employees to make the best decision for everyone involved including the airline, it does not have to go way up the food chain. Do they always get it right? No of course not, but they do have a very good record. (3,400 flights a day with a very low complaint record) So it sounds like they had to chose between a short delay for 100 people, or a very long delay for 30+ people.

    But I would agree, the crew should have informed the waiting passengers of what was going on. Knowing why often relives frustration when things do not go as planned, and is common courtesy.
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  18. #468
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    No doubt. This phenomenon, at least in my experience, only affects the late night flights.
    If this is the case, I am going to make a guess as to why. As we know the Southwest business model is primarily point to point to point, vs a hub and spoke carrier. Any delays upstream, can be accumulative, so the further downstream you observe this from, the longer the total delay. The later in the day, the fewer opportunities they have to get the delayed passenger to their destination on the same day.
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  19. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    While this common occurrance happens at all stations for all airlines only with southwest will you find so many opologists waitng hoping to convince you that this is an apparition for Southwest rather than a common occurance.
    I don't view either the DOT (who collects and analyzes the data) or the travelling public at large (who generate complaints to DOT) as "opologists" (sp).

    It is the data rather than the "opologists" (sp) which provides persuasive evidence.

  20. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    Look at this from the other viewpoints for a moment.

    The crew had an input, but likely did not make the final call on waiting.
    I don't blame the crew for the delay. I realize it wasn't their call. Again, they were just as irritated as I and at least one other passenger across the aisle who voiced his exasperation ("They ALWAYS do this").


    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    When operations/dispatch makes a decision like this, they are doing a balancing act. Do they inconvenience 100 people for 25 min, or do they force 30 people to be put up in a hotel overnight, delaying their getting to their destination until the next day? In addition there might be a domino effect, by forcing yet others originally booked on the next morning flight to take a later flight if the morning flight was already full.
    Hence I have avoided the last flights of the night for some time now. The delays were becoming too frequent for my liking. This was on the second-to-last flight of the night, so I don't understand why they chose to hold it for these passengers instead of having them board the flight going out 30 minutes later. Sure, perhaps there wasn't space to accommodate the number of passengers, but this was Sunday evening and the airport crowds were thin. So who knows.


    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    But I would agree, the crew should have informed the waiting passengers of what was going on. Knowing why often relives frustration when things do not go as planned, and is common courtesy.
    Oh, the crew did keep us informed. That's how I knew we were waiting on 30 passengers. My frustration stems from the lack of apology for the delay/inconvenience and the aforementioned hypocrisy of fleecing me to leave 30 minutes earlier on a flight with empty seats while Southwest doesn't mind having me twiddle my thumbs without any compensation if it saves them some cash.

    Southwest not allowing free, same-day standby, or flat fee ($25), same-day advance changes, space available, like most other US airlines I can grasp. Nevertheless, it's the one remaining policy I really wish they'd modify (before, it was the boarding policy, but the new changes are excellent, have saved me much time, and I am very appreciative for them).

    I feel like I've successfully made a mountain made out of this molehill.

  21. #471
    Supertall Skyscraper Member aceplace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by interestedobserver
    Oh, the crew did keep us informed. That's how I knew we were waiting on 30 passengers. My frustration stems from the lack of apology for the delay/inconvenience and the aforementioned hypocrisy of fleecing me to leave 30 minutes earlier on a flight with empty seats while Southwest doesn't mind having me twiddle my thumbs without any compensation if it saves them some cash.
    Yes, they acted out of their own best interests instead of yours.

    But you were miffed due to the lack of an apology?

    I would think that airlines should order packs of preprinted apologies to distribute to passengers. The form letter would express their deep sorrow, angst and regret at the pain you endured. People that run a business are normally sensitive souls who are deeply troubled by their customers' anguish, and they just wanted you to know that they feel your pain.

  22. #472
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    Some years back, I had the idea of starting a business that other organizations could use to handle customer issues. The business would be called "The Complaint Department".

    For example... a city bus fails to stop for you, but it will probably stop down the block because several passengers are waiting. You manage to run to get in before it leaves, and you glare at the driver. He answers you with some attitude. You suck it up and take a seat. But on the advertisements in the bus you see... "Problems or comments about your bus service? Call the Complaint Department at 999-9999".

    Still seething with anger an hour later, you call the Complaint Department. One of my operator answers, hears your story, and makes out a letter of apology. Then he puts you on hold. Coming back on, he answers... yes sir/ma'm, the bus driver was in fact rude. He will be disciplined with a level 2 infraction on his record. You should get a notification letter from DART in a few days. When you hang up, the operator signs the letter of apology and puts it in the mail queue.

  23. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceplace
    Yes, they acted out of their own best interests instead of yours.

    But you were miffed due to the lack of an apology?
    It's common courtesy and goes a long way to propitiate the customer. It's like saying 'please' and 'thank you', basic things you learn before graduating elementary school. I wouldn't think the idea of an apology would be so hard to understand.

    Here's a concrete example. According to a study in the medical journal The Lancet, the number one action after a medical 'incident' that might have prevented litigation is an 'explanation and apology'. An APOLOGY, of all things, trumped monetary compensation and correction of the mistake. Incredible what something so cheap and easy to come by can do for ameliorating a situation of medical injury. Imagine what an apology could do for something so innocuous as a 25-minute flight delay.

    Source: http://www.strasburger.com/p4p/publi..._hospitals.htm

  24. #474
    Supertall Skyscraper Member aceplace's Avatar
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    Well, a callous, tough-luck attitude on the part of my doctor might drive me to a lawsuit out of pure vengeance, but an apology might be construed as an admission of liability. Oklahoma passed something called the "I'm sorry" law, specifically stating that a statement of compassion or concern after a highway accident did not establish liability. I'm unhappy that you're hurting buddy, but it wasn't my fault.

    A flight delay by an airline is a different matter, of course, and do you really believe a flight attendant when he/she mumbles a ritualized expression of regret at your misfortune? Chances are that the crew is as angry as you are. Do you really think hypocrisy makes anything better? A realistic explanation is what you really need, not crocodile tears of sorrow.

    Some of us have accepted the principle that life is not fair. Just suck it up and hope for better luck in the future.

    By the way, the next time you have a problem with Southwest, PM me. I'll be glad to apologize profusely for the wrong done to you. Hope it makes you feel better.

    .................................................. ...........

    I remember that a man called Richard Jewell was falsely identified by several news organizations as a bomber at the Atlanta Olympics. Later on, he sued the newspapers, and they attempted to avoid paying out any money by offering to make a public apology. Jewell answered that he couldn't pay his lawyer with 35% of an apology.
    Last edited by aceplace; 01 February 2008 at 12:23 AM.

  25. #475
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceplace
    Well, a callous, tough-luck attitude on the part of my doctor might drive me to a lawsuit out of pure vengeance, but an apology might be construed as an admission of liability. Oklahoma passed something called the "I'm sorry" law, specifically stating that a statement of compassion or concern after a highway accident did not establish liability. I'm unhappy that you're hurting buddy, but it wasn't my fault.

    A flight delay by an airline is a different matter, of course, and do you really believe a flight attendant when he/she mumbles a ritualized expression of regret at your misfortune? Chances are that the crew is as angry as you are. Do you really think hypocrisy makes anything better? A realistic explanation is what you really need, not crocodile tears of sorrow.

    Some of us have accepted the principle that life is not fair. Just suck it up and hope for better luck in the future.

    By the way, the next time you have a problem with Southwest, PM me. I'll be glad to apologize profusely for the wrong done to you. Hope it makes you feel better.

    .................................................. ...........

    I remember that a man called Richard Jewell was falsely identified by several news organizations as a bomber at the Atlanta Olympics. Later on, he sued the newspapers, and they attempted to avoid paying out any money by offering to make a public apology. Jewell answered that he couldn't pay his lawyer with 35% of an apology.
    This thread is for comparing Southwest and AA. Ergo, I'm comparing practices and policies of these airlines. You're keying in on the apology part (perhaps to use that incredibly witty [and original!] "Complaint Department" story LOLOLOL), when my main contention is with Southwest's policy of not allowing free stand-by (unless your originally ticketed flight is delayed) like most other US airlines.

    And obviously Jewell would say that, as he had ALREADY sued. He had debts to pay his attorney. The Lancet article was asking what would have PREVENTED litigation.

    Alright, for me, at least, no more discussion of apologies. That was not my focus, but if you enjoy it, please, by all means...

  26. #476
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    So, if Northwest is merged into Delta, and Continential merges with United, what does American do?

  27. #477
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon
    So, if Northwest is merged into Delta, and Continential merges with United, what does American do?
    Merge with Southwest, of course. Total domination of the DFW Metroplex

  28. #478
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFWCRE8TIVE
    Merge with Southwest, of course. Total domination of the DFW Metroplex
    That would suck for SWA. Their service level would take a nose dive. (Pun definitely intended)

  29. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon
    So, if Northwest is merged into Delta, and Continential merges with United, what does American do?
    Some people have suggested US Air (I hope not). I have also read that AA might put out a counter-bid for NW at the last moment.

    Sounds like some interesting developments are ahead.

  30. #480
    High-Rise Member GuerillaBlack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon
    So, if Northwest is merged into Delta, and Continential merges with United, what does American do?
    This would put American at the #3 carrier. Who else would be left for American (the truck stop in the sky) to merge with if the two happened?

  31. #481
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Sunday, February 17, 2008
    Fort Worth-based American Airlines announces agreement with India’s Jet Airways
    By Pegasus News wire
    http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008...nounces-agree/

    American Airlines announced a new reciprocal frequent flyer agreement with Jet Airways (India) Limited.

    The frequent flyer agreement allows members of American's AAdvantage program to accrue and redeem miles when traveling on any eligible Jet Airways flights. Members of the JetPrivilege program will be able to accrue and redeem miles on any eligible American Airlines, American Eagle, and AmericanConnection flights.

    "We're pleased to add Jet Airways as another option for our AAdvantage members to earn and redeem miles," said Rob Friedman, President - AAdvantage Marketing Programs. "Jet Airways is a fast-growing, world-class airline that will provide our customers more choices than ever. We're also delighted to welcome members of the JetPrivilege program onboard our American flights."

    American and Jet Airways last week began a previously announced code-sharing agreement. Under this relationship, American places its AA designator code on Jet Airways flights to certain cities in India beyond the Jet Airways Delhi hub. American flies nonstop between its Chicago hub and Delhi. In turn, Jet Airways places its 9W designator code on certain American Airlines domestic flights out of New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport. In addition, American and Jet Airways will code-share and cooperate on traffic between the United States and India that connects at Brussels Airport.

  32. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFWCRE8TIVE
    Sunday, February 17, 2008
    Fort Worth-based American Airlines announces agreement with India’s Jet Airways
    By Pegasus News wire
    http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008...nounces-agree/
    Excellent! Jet Airways is by far the best Indian air carrier.

  33. #483
    Incoherent Rambler grantboston's Avatar
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    ^ I know oneworld was supposed to announce a new carrier some time this quarter. I had been thinking it would be Brussels Airlines, but it's possible it could be Jet (who works closely with Brussels Airlines).

    Agreed about the quality of Jet. Of course, only Kingfisher has its own beer on board.

  34. #484
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    http://www.independent.ie/national-n...-us-43198.html

    So, with the Open Skies treaty moving forward next month, RyanAtlantic could start operating within the next year or two? The article above, from last Spring, mentions Dallas as an intended destination -- which would be incredible. A recent new york times article mentioned one way flights from Islip to Europe starting as low as 10 euro. Dallas would undoubtedly be more, but landing RyanAtlantic would open DFW's international appeal incredibly.
    Times weighs down on you like an old, ambiguous dream. You keep on moving, trying to slip through it. But even if you go to the ends of the earth, you won't be able to escape it.
    Haruki Murakami

  35. #485
    Skyscraper Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFWCRE8TIVE
    Sunday, February 17, 2008
    Fort Worth-based American Airlines announces agreement with India’s Jet Airways
    By Pegasus News wire
    http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2008...nounces-agree/

    American Airlines announced a new reciprocal frequent flyer agreement with Jet Airways (India) Limited.
    But how does this and the replys being generated relate to the thread topic?
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  36. #486
    Administrator dfwcre8tive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    But how does this and the replys being generated relate to the thread topic?
    This is the general thread regarding news for either American or Southwest. There aren't individual threads for each company.

  37. #487
    Skyscraper Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    woman's body moved to the floor of the first-class section

    Associated Press
    Relative Complains After Death on Flight
    By RICHARD PYLE 02.24.08, 8:31 PM ET

    NEW YORK -

    An American Airlines passenger died after a flight attendant told her he couldn't give her any oxygen and then tried to help her with faulty equipment, including an empty oxygen tank, a relative said.

    The airline confirmed the flight death and said medical professionals had tried to save the passenger, Carine Desir, who was returning home to Brooklyn from Haiti.

    Desir had complained of not feeling well and being very thirsty on the Friday flight from Port-au-Prince after she ate a meal, according to Antonio Oliver, a cousin who was traveling with her and her brother Joel Desir. A flight attendant gave her water, he said.

    A few minutes later, Desir said she was having trouble breathing and asked for oxygen, but a flight attendant twice refused her request, Oliver said Sunday in a telephone interview.

    After the flight attendant refused to administer oxygen to Desir, she became distressed, pleading, "Don't let me die," Oliver recalled.

    Other passengers aboard Flight 896 became agitated over the situation, he said, and the flight attendant, apparently after phone consultation with the cockpit, tried to administer oxygen from a portable tank and mask, but the tank was empty.

    Two doctors and two nurses were aboard and tried to administer oxygen from a second tank, which also was empty, Oliver said.

    Desir was put on the floor, and a nurse tried CPR, to no avail, Oliver said. A "box," possibly a defibrillator, also was applied but didn't function effectively, he said.

    "I cannot believe what is happening on the plane," he said, sobbing. "She cannot get up, and nothing on the plane works."

    Oliver said he then asked for the plane to "land right away so I can get her to a hospital," and the pilot agreed to divert to Miami, 45 minutes away. But during that time, Desir died, Oliver said.

    "Her last words were, 'I cannot breathe,'" he said.

    Desir, 44, was pronounced dead by one of the doctors, Joel Shulkin, and the flight continued to Kennedy International Airport without stopping in Miami, with the woman's body moved to the floor of the first-class section and covered with a blanket, Oliver said.

    American Airlines (nyse: AMR - news - people ) spokeswoman Sonja Whitemon wouldn't comment Sunday on Oliver's claims of faulty medical equipment. Shulkin, through his attorney, Justin Nadeau, declined to comment on the incident out of respect for Desir's family.

    A spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office didn't immediately return a phone message seeking comment on whether an autopsy was planned.

    American Airlines, a unit of AMR Corp. and based in Fort Worth, Texas, is the largest domestic airline.



    http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/...partner=alerts
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  38. #488
    Incoherent Rambler grantboston's Avatar
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    I believe this was on an A300. After having the intense displeasure of flying some of those pieces of garbage, I'm not at all surprised that "nothing was working."

    While it's certainly a shame that the woman died, I'm not sure that the woman would have survived, based upon what I read here, even if the Flight Attendant had done everything the passenger asked for.

  39. #489
    Skyscraper Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grantboston
    I believe this was on an A300. After having the intense displeasure of flying some of those pieces of garbage, I'm not at all surprised that "nothing was working."

    While it's certainly a shame that the woman died, I'm not sure that the woman would have survived, based upon what I read here, even if the Flight Attendant had done everything the passenger asked for.
    The defibrillator, and O2 walk around bottles are not part of the aircraft.
    They are separate safety items, and as such have their own inspection and certifaction standards. It is hard to imagine that any airline would not have required safety equipment checked prior to flight.
    Last edited by TexasPlus; 25 February 2008 at 08:47 PM.
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  40. #490
    Incoherent Rambler grantboston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    The defibrillator, and O2 walk around bottles are not part of the aircraft.
    They are separate safety items, and as such have their own inspection and certifaction standards. It is hard to imagine that any airline would not have required safety equipment not checked prior to flight.
    Well, that sounds like what AA is saying:

    American Airlines has issued a statement defending its actions in the death of the Brooklyn-bound passenger who died on the way home from Haiti on Friday:

    "American Airlines is very saddened over the death of passenger Carine Desir on Flight 896 from Haiti to New York's JFK Airport last Friday and extends its deepest sympathy to the grieving family.

    We are investigating this incident, as we do with all serious medical situations on board our aircraft, but American Airlines can say oxygen was administered and the Automatic External Defibrillator was applied.

    Among the preflight duties of our highly trained Flight Attendants is a check of all emergency equipment on the aircraft. This includes checking the oxygen bottles -- there were 12 in this particular aircraft.

    We stand behind the actions and training of our crew and the functionality of the onboard medical equipment. We are also grateful to medical volunteers on this flight who came to the aid of a fellow traveler during flight.

    We're hoping to hear more details. As one of our blog readers pointed out, an automatic defibrillator doesn't work unless the machine reads an erratic heartbeat. It doesn't do anything if there's no heartbeat."

    And about those oxygen bottles -- we'd like to hear more about that.

    http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...ssenger-d.html

  41. #491
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    The defibrillator, and O2 walk around bottles are not part of the aircraft.
    They are separate safety items, and as such have their own inspection and certifaction standards. It is hard to imagine that any airline would not have required safety equipment not checked prior to flight.
    Well, according to this article (AA), the defibrillator and O2 tanks were working properly, and administered. The cousin mentions in the article posted above that the 'box' (defibrillator) did not work. Well, they only fire when appropriate. It would be impossible for him to determine why it did not fire just from looking.

    http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

    Airline Disputes Cousin's Story of Death

    Feb 25 12:59 PM US/Eastern
    By RICHARD PYLE
    Associated Press

    ‘Nothing on the Plane Works’
    Relative Complains After Death on Flight
    American Airlines Statement Regarding Death of Passenger

    Excerpt:
    NEW YORK (AP) - American Airlines on Monday insisted it tried to help a passenger who died after complaining she couldn't breathe, and disputed the account of a relative who said that she was denied oxygen and that medical devices failed.

    The airline said the oxygen tanks and a defibrillator were working and noted that several medical professionals on the flight, including a doctor, tried to save the passenger, Carine Desir, 44, who had heart disease.

    "American Airlines, after investigation, has determined that oxygen was administered on the aircraft, and it was working, and the defibrillator was applied as well," airline spokesman Charley Wilson said Monday.

  42. #492
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    The score from today was:

    AA - 200+ cancellations
    SW - 0 cancellations

    Partially due to AA being cheap and not renting enough gates at DFW, and partially due to Love being far more protected from ice/snow storms historically.

    Jason

  43. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonDallas
    The score from today was:

    AA - 200+ cancellations
    SW - 0 cancellations

    Partially due to AA being cheap and not renting enough gates at DFW, and partially due to Love being far more protected from ice/snow storms historically.

    Jason
    DFW actually got snow, Love did not.

    From today (this flight was one of the many which never left the ground):

  44. #494
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonDallas
    The score from today was:

    AA - 200+ cancellations
    SW - 0 cancellations

    Partially due to AA being cheap and not renting enough gates at DFW, and partially due to Love being far more protected from ice/snow storms historically.

    Jason
    That, and Southwest doesn't mind winging it. See FAA fines.
    Tighten the female dog!

  45. #495
    Skyscraper Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeroD
    That, and Southwest doesn't mind winging it. See FAA fines.
    Dang, you sound as desperate as Hillary Clinton in attempting to relate these two totally none related cases.

    I am going to assume in mentioning "FAA fines", you are talking about this recent story.

    The New York Times


    March 7, 2008
    F.A.A. Fines Southwest Air in Inspections
    By MATTHEW L. WALD

    WASHINGTON — The Federal Aviation Administration proposed a record penalty, $10.2 million, against Southwest Airlines on Thursday because, it said, the carrier had misled officials about whether it kept flying older Boeing 737 planes for several days last year after failing to inspect them for cracks in the fuselage.

    At least one F.A.A. employee was aware of Southwest’s misrepresentation, an agency spokeswoman, Diane Spitalieri said, and told the airline that it could keep flying the 737s but should inspect them as soon as possible. A supervisor at the F.A.A. who was aware of the arrangement has been removed from that job, the spokeswoman said.

    Southwest declared Thursday that it should not be fined because it had the F.A.A.’s concurrence when it continued to fly the incompletely inspected planes.

    The inspector general of the Transportation Department is investigating the F.A.A.’s handling of the episode at the request of the chairman of the House Transportation Committee.

    Ms. Spitalieri said that four of the planes turned out to have four-inch cracks, big enough to require repairs, though no problems occurred when they were in use.

    “They knowingly flew those aircraft,” she said. “They knew they shouldn’t be.”

    The airline said that it had found “the start of small cracking” on six planes.

    According to the F.A.A., Southwest came to it last March 15 and “self-disclosed” that it might have failed to comply with a special inspection of older aircraft required under an F.A.A. order.

    On March 19, the airline said it had definitely flown planes for which required inspections were skipped. But then the airline did something worse, according to the F.A.A.

    “When you self-disclose, one of the questions is, Has the noncompliance stopped?” Ms. Spitalieri said. The airline said it had, she related, but in fact Southwest kept flying the planes until March 23.

    A spokeswoman for Southwest, Linda Rutherford, acknowledged that when the airline disclosed its error, it checked a box saying it had ceased the violation. But, she said, that was an “administrative error.”

    “We continued flying with the concurrence of F.A.A. and the F.A.A.’s approval of our plan to bring ourselves back into compliance,” Ms. Rutherford said.

    She added that the airline had inspected “99.4 percent” of the area it was supposed to, but, because of an error in the computer program that tells inspectors what tasks to accomplish, skipped 0.6 percent.


    “This was never an issue of a safety-of-flight concern,” she said.

    Boeing, the builder of the planes, issued a statement Thursday saying that Southwest had asked it to verify that is was safe to fly the planes for up to 10 days until they could be reinspected.

    “Boeing concluded the 10-day compliance plan was technically valid,” the statement said. “In Boeing’s opinion, the safety of the Southwest fleet was not compromised.”

    Under an F.A.A. order issued in September 2004, older 737s had to be inspected for fatigue cracks at least once every 4,500 flights, and 46 of Southwest’s planes gradually crossed that threshold. By March 14, they had collectively flown 59,791 flights, the agency said.

    Airlines that disclose problems win leniency in penalties for their violations. But between March 15, when Southwest said it might have a problem, and March 23, when it finished the inspections, it used the planes in 1,451 flights, according to the F.A.A.

    Ms. Spitalieri said the agency became aware of the misconduct of its own employees through “several routes,” including a call to an internal hot line.

    Last month, the chairman of the House Transportation Committee, Representative James L. Oberstar, Democrat of Michigan, asked the Transportation Department’s inspector general to investigate. The inspector general is looking into “the thoroughness of F.A.A.’s investigation of whistle-blower allegations,” according to a notice by the official’s office.

    Ms. Spitalieri said a supervisor was aware that someone at the F.A.A. had told the airline that it could keep flying the planes. She said she was not sure how many F.A.A. employees were involved.

    Business Week magazine reported in February that the House committee was looking into whether an F.A.A. inspector who had proposed that the planes be taken out of service until they were inspected had been improperly shifted to other duties.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/07/bu...gewanted=print
    Last edited by TexasPlus; 07 March 2008 at 02:05 PM.
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

  46. #496
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    No risk to the flying public

    Former NTSB Investigator in Charge Offers Safety of Flight Assessment on Behalf of Southwest Airlines
    Date: 3/7/2008 4:55:00 PM


    DALLAS, March 7 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The following is a statement by
    Gregory A. Feith:
    I was requested by Southwest Airlines (SWA) to review and assess the
    potential safety of flight risk that could have resulted from the continued
    in-service operation of 46 of their Classic 737 airplanes in March 2007 as
    they progressively inspected a small area (under 0.6%) of the fuselage skin as
    required by FAA Airworthiness Directive 2004-18-06. The assessment involved
    the review of technical documents associated with both mandatory and
    non-mandatory inspections, pertinent service/maintenance history for the
    46 airplanes, a technical briefing by the Southwest Airlines Engineering
    Department and technical data/analysis provided by Boeing (the airplane
    manufacturer) related to structural integrity of fuselage skin cracks that
    were found on five of the 46 SWA airplanes. The scope of the assessment was
    confined to the safety of flight issues only.
    Based on the information I have reviewed, it is apparent that on March 15,
    2007, SWA initiated re-inspection of the affected airplanes to accomplish the
    inadvertently missed portion of FAA Airworthiness Directive (AD) 2004-18-06.
    A review of the historical information that led to the issuance of the AD
    indicates that a progressive inspection for fuselage skin cracking was
    initially distributed to operators in the form of a "non-mandatory" Service
    Bulletin (SB) that provided "risk mitigation" actions that operators were
    encouraged to incorporate into their maintenance program. This Service
    Bulletin was based, in large part, on an inspection program developed by
    Southwest Airlines. The issuance of the AD was a continued effort to ensure
    that cracks in the fuselage skin on the Boeing 737 airplanes were identified
    and mitigated well before they could pose a safety of flight issue. It is
    evident from the 4500 hour initial inspection requirement (regardless of
    aircraft age (i.e. flight cycles)) that the FAA did not regard the skin
    cracking as an "immediate threat" to the safety of flight of the airplane.
    Thus, the FAA Airworthiness Directive permitted aircraft to remain in-service
    for approximately 1 1/2 years, until a normally scheduled heavy maintenance
    visit occurred, before the first inspection was required.

    In addition, it is evident from the analysis and testing data developed by
    Boeing that cracks up to 6 inches in the fuselage skin do not compromise the
    structural integrity or pose a safety of flight issue. This is further
    supported by the design of the fuselage structure which incorporates "internal
    reinforcing doublers in the skin assembly" and "tearstraps," both of which are
    intended to provide strength, and slow or abate the growth rate of a crack
    under normal operating aerodynamic loads.
    Based on the available data and information reviewed, it is apparent that
    there was no risk to the flying public in March 2007 while Southwest Airlines
    performed their program to re-inspect the small area of aircraft fuselages
    identified in the AD inspection that was inadvertently missed.
    Gregory A. Feith
    International Aviation Safety & Security Consultant


    Mr. Feith is a former National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) Senior
    Air Safety Investigator with a wide range of aviation investigative, safety
    and experience. He has investigated hundreds of general aviation,
    business/corporate and air transport aircraft incidents and accidents
    worldwide during his 28 years as an aircraft accident investigator and
    aviation safety expert, of which more than 20 years was with the NTSB. Greg
    served as the Investigator-in-Charge or U.S. Accredited Representative for the
    investigation of numerous high profile aircraft accidents that include the
    Valujet DC-9 in-flight fire in the Florida Everglades in 1996; the American
    Eagle ATR 72 in-flight icing accident at Roselawn, Indiana in 1994; the USAir
    DC-9 windshear accident at Charlotte in 1994; the Korean Air 747-300
    controlled flight into terrain at Guam in 1997; the American Airlines MD-83
    runway overrun at Little Rock in 1999; the Emery Worldwide Airlines DC-8
    elevator control failure at Sacramento in 2000; the Swiss Air MD-11 in Peggy's
    Cove, Nova Scotia in 1998; and the Silk Air Boeing 737 in Palembang, Sumatra
    in 1997.
    Greg has won numerous NTSB and aviation industry awards and was the
    recipient of an Aviation Week and Space Technology Laurel Award in 1996 for
    his leadership in the investigation of the Valujet DC-9 in-flight fire
    accident in the Florida Everglades. He also received the 2001 Embry-Riddle
    Aeronautical University Distinguished Alumni Award for "extraordinary
    distinction and success in the field of aviation and achievements;" and the
    SAFE Association, Michael R. Grost Award for "outstanding contribution in the
    field of accident investigation."
    Greg is currently in private practice as an international aviation safety
    and security consultant specializing in: aircraft accident investigation,
    reconstruction and flight safety; expert witness testimony; general aviation,
    business/corporate and commercial airline flight safety and security program
    design, development, implementation and evaluation; and business/corporate and
    commercial airline emergency response (ERP) and crisis management program
    development and evaluation. He is also a principle member of The Aviation
    Response Management Advisory Group (TARMAC), which is comprised of former
    NTSB, FAA, FBI, NYCPD and U.N. experts dedicated to analyzing, developing and
    implementing programs that enhance both the flight safety and security of
    corporate/business aviation flight operations.
    Greg is widely known and respected for his frequent public speaking
    engagements and safety lecture, involvement in aviation safety and security
    education programs, and his persona as an instructor at Embry-Riddle
    Aeronautical University in the area of accident investigation/reconstruction
    and aviation safety. Greg regularly appears in a variety of aviation
    safety-related television programs on Discovery, TLC, the History Channel,
    "Seconds to Disaster" on National Geographic and PBS. He is the host of a
    television series on the History Channel titled Secrets of the Black Box,
    dedicated to telling the story about the investigation of aircraft accidents
    and the "Lessons Learned" that have enhanced the safety of aviation. In
    addition, he is a frequent contributor to various writers for articles in
    aviation publications such as Business & Commercial Aviation, Aviation Week
    and Space Technology and Aviation International News. Greg is seen regularly
    as an aviation safety and security expert on NBC, MSNBC and other major
    networks worldwide.

  47. #497
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    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....492e3dea.html

    here is the link for the article. on the same note, do the rules not state to post just the intro to the article then the link if you want to read the entire thing?

  48. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by downtownguy25
    on the same note, do the rules not state to post just the intro to the article then the link if you want to read the entire thing?
    You are correct. Of all the forums I read or post in, the ones here seem to be constant in posting complete or nearly complete stories without regard to copyrights. I often wondered how this board got away with it for so long. I know of several web masters that have received notices from legal departments for users posting a far less percentage of stories than what we see here. And yes,I am as guilty of it as anyone.
    "Liberalism: Moochers Electing Looters to Steal from Producers."

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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Southwest Airlines grounds dozens of jets after safety probe

    01:15 PM CDT on Wednesday, March 12, 2008
    By DAVE MICHAELS and TERRY MAXON / The Dallas Morning News
    dmichaels@dallasnews.com and tmaxon@dallasnews.com


    Southwest Airlines said it has grounded 44 of its Boeing jets for possible structural damage.
    The airline’s decision comes as it faces regulatory and congressional investigations into its decision last year to keep flying 46 jets that required safety inspections for fuselage damage. The FAA has proposed a record $10.2 million fine for those violations.

    Southwest is canceling about 4 percent of its schedule Wednesday, including some flights related to weather, said Southwest spokeswoman Linda Rutherford. That would indicate around 135 to 140 cancellations.

    Ms. Rutherford said the airline has identified 44 airplanes from its Boeing 737-300 and 737-500 fleets that needed inspections of the aircraft skin above and below the windows along the fuselage
    Of those, 38 are being taken out of service Wednesday for the inspections, which take about 90 minutes per airplane, she said. One of the 44 previously had been retired, and five were already undergoing other maintenance work, she said.

    The carrier hopes to complete all the inspections in time to operate a full schedule Thursday, she indicated.
    “At this point, we’re not canceling flights for tomorrow,” she said. The inspections are related to Southwest’s internal investigation of its maintenance operations and its compliance with required work.

    “During part of the audit process last night, we asked Boeing for a clarification on a Boeing service bulletin that’s related to aging aircraft skin,” she said. Southwest had already decided “out of an abundance of caution” to ground the airplanes to do the checks, she said, before Boeing indicated that the checks were needed.

    Carl Kuwitzky, president of the Southwest Airlines Pilots' Association called it a “minor inconvenience” and said the jets would likely be back in service sometime Wednesday. “They are trying to clear it up and do what the right thing is,” Mr. Kuwitzky said. “They are taking a conservative approach, even if that looks bad.”

    Southwest informed the FAA about the decision to ground the jets earlier Wednesday morning, FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said. As of Dec. 31, 2007, Southwest flew 520 Boeing 737 jets, including 194 of the older Boeing 737-300 that have been the target of the stepped-up fuselage inspections.
    Southwest said Tuesday that it had placed three employees on leave in connection with an internal investigation into the safety lapses.
    American Airlines' flight cancellations rise to 300

    02:36 PM CDT on Wednesday, March 26, 2008
    By TERRY MAXON and ERIC AASEN / The Dallas Morning News
    tmaxon@dallasnews.com and eaasen@dallasnews.com

    American Airlines said it has canceled about 300 Wednesday flights, including about 80 from Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport, as it hurried to perform inspections on its McDonnell Douglas MD-80 aircraft.

    The action came after a Federal Aviation Administration audit raised questions about how a certain bundle of wires is secured to the MD-80 aircraft, the airline said. The airplanes had already been inspected, but American and FAA inspectors were unsure if the work had been done properly.

    “We are re-inspecting the MD-80s to make sure the wiring is installed and secured exactly according to the directive,” American spokesman Tim Wagner said in a statement.

    FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown said American's action stemmed from a check of compliance with airworthiness directives ordered last week by the FAA. The airline's decision to ground the jets was voluntary, she said.

    The cancellations are centered on Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport and Chicago’s O’Hare International Airport, its two largest hubs and the focus of its domestic route system.

    According to Flightstats.com, as of 1:40 p.m. American had canceled 303 flights out of 1,185 flights tracked, or 26 percent systemwide.

    At D/FW Airport, the carrier had canceled 80 of 256 flights, or 31 percent. At Chicago, the airline had canceled 62 of 129, or 48 percent, of its departures.

    Passengers at D/FW on Wednesday were annoyed by the delays, but many said they were glad the airline is emphasizing safety.

    Bill O’Brien got up at 4:45 a.m. to catch a flight to North Carolina only to get an automated call saying the flight was canceled without an explanation. Too bad he was already at the airport, he said.

    Mr. O’Brien, a sales director for an engineering services company, flies every week. He said he appreciates the safety measures but feels bad for passengers who don’t fly much, including families and the handicapped.

    At least Mr. O’Brien can keep working on his BlackBerry while waiting for a flight that would get him to North Carolina this evening.

    “Delays are a fact of life when you fly as much as I do,” he said. “I’ll live with it, but I also value my time.”

    Kim Hutson of North Carolina wonders why airlines can’t have extra planes ready to replace the canceled flights.

    “You know you have to have inspections,” she said. “Why all of a sudden, when gas prices have gotten so high, are we grounding planes?”

    Grounding the planes just gives passengers another reason to be upset with airlines, she said, on top of weather delays, lengthy security checks and airline tickets getting more expensive.

    “I imagine people are feeling more and more disgruntled,” she said.

    Greg Goodman of Columbus, Ohio, flew into Dallas on Wednesday for a nursing convention. His flight was not delayed, but he appreciates that planes are getting inspected.

    “It would be really irritating as a passenger to be delayed,” he said. “But it would be more irritating if you crash and die.”

    Inspecting the MD-80s can take several hours per aircraft, American Airlines' Mr. Wagner said, adding that some inspections already have been completed, and those planes are back in service.

    “We are in the process of completing the inspections on the remaining airplanes and will return them to service on a rolling basis throughout the day,” he said.

    The work involves protective sheathes that are wrapped around a six-foot-long bundle of wires that connects a hydraulic pump in a landing-wheel well to the rest of the airplane.

    The bundles are supposed to have a tie every inch to make sure that the sheathes remain in place. In same cases, American found ties that spaced 1.25 inches, 1.5 inches or more apart, it said.

    The September 2006 airworthiness directive, based on a July 2006 Boeing service bulletin, required airlines to inspect the airplanes within 18 months and do any required modifications.

    An American spokesman said Wednesday’s reinspections had found no evidence of chafing on the wires. The only issue in Wednesday’s reinspections was the spacing of the ties.

    The 2006 directive said the work was needed “to prevent shorted wires or arcing at the auxiliary hydraulic pump, which could result in loss of auxiliary hydraulic power, or a fire in the wheel well of the airplane; and to reduce the potential of an ignition source adjacent to the fuel tanks, which, in combination with flammable fuel vapors, could result in a fuel tank explosion and consequent loss of the airplane.”

    American offers around 2,200 to 2,300 flights on an average weekday. Including partner American Eagle, the carriers operate about 4,000 daily flights.

    Wednesday’s groundings are the latest embarrassments for the nation’s airline industry, a string of bad news that began March 6 when the Federal Aviation Administration announced a $10.2 million fine against Southwest Airlines Co.

    The FAA pounded Southwest for continuing to fly 46 Boeing 737 airplanes after the carrier knew that the airplanes had missed some required inspections.

    Then on March 12, Southwest canceled 126 flights while it inspected 46 aircraft for metal skin cracks, including 38 airplanes scheduled to be flying passengers that day.

    The FAA subsequently ordered its staff to audit the safety inspection records of all U.S. carriers, requiring them to prove that they had complied with a list of 10 airworthiness directives.

    United Airlines Inc. had to retest the altitude indicators on seven of its Boeing 747s after questions arose whether a South Korean maintenance contractor had properly inspected the instruments.

    American Eagle Airlines Inc., a sister company to American, briefly grounded its fleet of 25 Bombardier jets Friday evening while officials determined whether the airplanes met an airworthiness directive.

    U.S. Rep. James Oberstar, D-Minn., has scheduled an April 3 meeting of the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, which he chairs, to hear complaints about alleged lax oversight of the airline industry by the FAA.

    The MD-80, the smallest aircraft operated by American, is the workhorse of the carrier’s domestic system, with its fleet of 300 representing nearly half of American’s 655 jets and about 37 percent of its seats.

    It also one of the oldest fleets operated by American. The average MD-80 is 18 years old, and the oldest entered the fleet in 1983.

    American is in the process of adding 47 Boeing 737-800s to partially replace the oldest MD-80s, but has not made a decision about when and if it will replace all the MD-80s.

    Dallas Morning News staff writers Dave Michaels and Jennifer Chamberlain contributed to this report.

  50. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by PuddinHead
    Uptown,

    There is a world of difference between grounding an airplane that has been inspected according to regulations to verify the inspection was performed correctly compared to not grounding aircraft that had not been inspected at all until after the FAA yanks a not in your tail to make do what is required.
    True. Southwest's plan was signed off on by the FAA and Boeing prior to implementation; American's was not.

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