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Thread: Trinity Bridges

  1. #851
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Terveen View Post
    Here's the MHHB celebration video from You+Dallas.
    Great video!

  2. #852
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member BigD5349's Avatar
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    I was driving across I-30, glanced to my left at the first Calatrava and was noticing how close it is to I-30, the future site of the second Calatrava. When you then look across towards downtown and notice how the State and County jails dominate the land between the two Calatravas, it just makes you shake your head. I think the way those two bridges perfectly frame up the jails, it'll make people do a double take. I know there have been calls to camouflage the jails somehow. You just can't put lipstick on that pig.

    If building these bridges was supposed to be about doing nearby real estate deals, it's a shame to see the most prime pieces of real estate eaten up by those eyesores. If this were a grittier city, we could work around them. But this is Dallas. You can't work around that jail. The Dallas way is to sanitize, not work-around.

    I'm interested in what happens when those two landmark bridges are sitting side by side and those big ugly jails are sitting there between them. I think when people *actually* see that landscape with their eyes, it will get them talking more. Shouldn't Dallas stop wasting time on a fantasy toll road that will never get built, and figure how to move, with the State and County, those jails? I'm not saying, let's move it now. I know there's not money for that and the economy is still recovering. But what about kicking off a process to move them 10-15 years from now?
    Last edited by BigD5349; 12 March 2012 at 09:43 PM.

  3. #853
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    As much as it offends those on this board who want to put a park in a drainage ditch (now there's your "lipstick on a pig"), the current location of the county courthouse/jail and the private state jail is just about ideal for those uses. If not there, where do you put them -- along with the nearby bail bondsmen and other supporting businesses? That courthouse/jail has to be somewhere in the county. Where else are you going to find a location with the same combination of excellent access (including public transportation), central location, low land price and a lack of existing neighbors fighting tooth-and-nail to keep it out of their neighborhood?

  4. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hannibal Lecter View Post
    As much as it offends those on this board who want to put a park in a drainage ditch (now there's your "lipstick on a pig"), the current location of the county courthouse/jail and the private state jail is just about ideal for those uses. If not there, where do you put them -- along with the nearby bail bondsmen and other supporting businesses? That courthouse/jail has to be somewhere in the county. Where else are you going to find a location with the same combination of excellent access (including public transportation), central location, low land price and a lack of existing neighbors fighting tooth-and-nail to keep it out of their neighborhood?
    Cedars


    S Lamar and Grand.. there are several massive empty lots down there.. build a huge complex.

    Okay maybe not... that's too close to the standing wave and cedar creek.


    There really aren't a lot of better options. I suppose the only thing to do is to throw some LEDs on the jail to spruce them up a bit.


    Also, can we not use the prisoners to build the trinity park?
    Last edited by Bhops; 13 March 2012 at 12:17 PM.

  5. #855
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    Baltimore has its jail (almost a castle) and a pseudo supermax very near core, but not on the harbor. When you see it in pictures, it seems to fit. The bigger Dallas problem is the number of sleazy businesses nearby. That does not occur in Baltimore and probably other cities that dealt with the issue. When we ceded the area to the jail, we likely thought we may as well dump these places in the area. They do not need to be there and should not need a lot of investment to move them.

    Being next to the jail/courthouse is not a problem. It is likely one of safest places in city. Being around the parade of low lifes cycling through these businesses is.

  6. #856
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    A developer already has show interest in the land between those bridges and his only concern was the Dawson State Jail just south of Commerce. He cited that the other jail and courts were a positive for the area providing regular activity to the area that a developer could leverage for retail. His proposed development would have centered around the Commerce Street & Riverfront Blvd Intersection all he wanted was for the Dawson State Jail to move out. The city has tried working with the state on moving or outright closing the Dawson State Jail since the state was closing a few jails last year to make up for budget cuts. The city had no luck convincing them we had the right jail to close.

    The problem is no one wants a jail near their neighborhood no matter where you move these facilities there would be massive upheaval and public outcry. Governments try to keep from moving jails because they stir up way too many voters. Its like putting a liquor store on your street. Notice how they never just move around because it takes a lot of convincing to build a new one where some locals wont throw a fit and claim that they are are worried about the children...."property values".

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin View Post
    Being next to the jail/courthouse is not a problem. It is likely one of safest places in city. Being around the parade of low lifes cycling through these businesses is.
    Bingo!

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    It’s the same issue with homeless shelters. They fit in fine if there is enough density, but they are eyesores next to the trinity and our new bridge.

  9. #859
    Super Moderator lakewoodhobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigD5349 View Post
    I'm not saying, let's move it now. I know there's not money for that and the economy is still recovering. But what about kicking off a process to move them 10-15 years from now?
    I think we'll need to see much, much more development near the river, on both sides (like the Reunion Arena site and the areas on each side of the MHH and Continental), before anyone takes that idea seriously. But I agree there should be a long-term plan to phase it out. Maybe more like a 20-30 year plan.

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    OC

    Put some fiberglass turrets and embattlements on it ala Cinderellas Castle and Medieval Times....

  11. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC_Club View Post
    Put some fiberglass turrets and embattlements on it ala Cinderellas Castle and Medieval Times....
    I think that's part of the problem... if the buildings weren't so ugly....

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakewoodhobo View Post
    I think we'll need to see much, much more development near the river, on both sides (like the Reunion Arena site and the areas on each side of the MHH and Continental), before anyone takes that idea seriously. But I agree there should be a long-term plan to phase it out. Maybe more like a 20-30 year plan.
    let's implement a 20-30 year plan to eliminate crime

  13. #863
    Super Moderator lakewoodhobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhops View Post
    let's implement a 20-30 year plan to eliminate crime
    Why not?
    http://endoftheamericandream.com/arc...ntrol-behavior

  14. #864
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakewoodhobo View Post
    whatever it takes!

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    Sylvan Avenue Bridge construction

    It would appear that construction of the Sylvan Avenue bridge will soon begin. There are surveying stakes all over and this sign is now posted by the boat ramp in Trammell Crow park.


    photo by RCdave, on Flickr
    Sorry for the cruddy IPhone picture

    From what I have seen, the bridge will be elevated the width of the floodway, so Sylvan will no longer get closed when the river floods. I also believe that there will be exit ramps down to Trammell Crow Park.

    Finally a construction project that I'll be able to document with aerial photos from start to finish.

  16. #866
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    Do we need a bridge at sylvan? I like the fact that it dips down into the flood plain. If the park is build, it won't flood anymore, right?

  17. #867
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhops View Post
    Do we need a bridge at sylvan? I like the fact that it dips down into the flood plain. If the park is build, it won't flood anymore, right?
    No the Trinity park is designed with the idea that it will flood a couple times a year as it always does. Even the Trinity Park bathrooms are designed as temporary movable trailers that get parked at set locations and moved out of the flood zone when flooding rains are on their way. The Trinity Park is really only the city trying to get more use out of the land in between the levees when its not flooded.

    The question about whether we need a Sylvan bridge well I think that has to do with traffic circulation and connectivity. One of the key issues with the Trinity now is access. When you improve access to areas they are likely to become more used and by increasing the reliability of the Sylvan connection we could increase the connective tissue between the Design District and West Dallas and the entire Trinity area. It shouldn't require a freeway bridge to get from one place to another for those short trips and in some places along the Trinity its been very much like that and by bringing this road up and out of the flood zone residents and businesses can depend on it for transportation.

    AT last check this is what the bridge would include:
    3400 ft. long, 28 span bridge
    6 lanes with 14 ft. travel/bicycle lanes
    6 ft. wide sidewalks in both directions
    800 ft. long park access ramp
    Retaining walls at bridge approaches
    Continuous street lighting
    Diaphragm walls and levee modifications
    Last edited by cowboyeagle05; 14 March 2012 at 04:36 PM.

  18. #868
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    Interesting. Thanks!

  19. #869
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    Federal law requires replacement bridges be built out of the floodplain. See the thread on the Northwest Highway bridge over White Rock Creek. The neighborhood wanted the replacement to look like the old bridge, even at the cost of the bridge being closed a few times a year. But our lords and masters in Washington don't allow it.

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    With all of those lanes, the bridge is going to be nearly 100' wide

  21. #871
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    Check out the DMN pic of lightning hitting the arch of the MHH bridge, should be on the front page of their website for awhile

    http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/2...ike%5B1%5D.jpg

  22. #872
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperITL View Post
    Check out the DMN pic of lightning hitting the arch of the MHH bridge, should be on the front page of their website for awhile

    http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/2...ike%5B1%5D.jpg
    Wow...did that leave a mark?

  23. #873
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    ^ There is a red navigation light on the top. I wonder if it made it.

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    Here is another article about the picture

    http://photographyblog.dallasnews.co...er-mounds.html

  25. #875
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    The next time I hear the comment "why do ya'll have such a big bridge over such a little 'ol river?", I'll be showing them the bridge webcam archive from today. http://trinityrivercorridor.com/brid...ex_nojava.html

  26. #876
    Skyscraper Member ChampionDallas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Traffic Guy View Post
    The next time I hear the comment "why do ya'll have such a big bridge over such a little 'ol river?", I'll be showing them the bridge webcam archive from today. http://trinityrivercorridor.com/brid...ex_nojava.html
    Tell me about it! I'm sick of it too!

  27. #877
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    I wonder why they are not working on the MHH Bridge 24 hours a day as promised? Last night the lights were not even on. Now that they have pushed the opening into April, because it rained one night, why not just push it into May.

    The river is a mile wide in South Dallas. I drove down there after work last night and it's really roaring. The whole of the riverbottom is full. Looking at the water levels of area lakes, Grapevine is over 5 feet high so there should be more water than normal in the river in coming weeks as they drop that extra water out.

  28. #878
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    Casper, I haven't seen anything official on the opening. I thought it was supposed to be next week. The I-35E Ramp appears to be finished except for barriers and striping. What else is left?

    If the opening is indeed now in April, all I can say is TxDOT is a joke.

  29. #879
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Rodriguez View Post
    Casper, I haven't seen anything official on the opening. I thought it was supposed to be next week. The I-35E Ramp appears to be finished except for barriers and striping. What else is left?

    If the opening is indeed now in April, all I can say is TxDOT is a joke.
    Lunch time yesterday I was heading back to work and rather than getting off at Continental, I took Woodall Rogers. They were pouring concrete on the approach ramp from southbound I-35 to the MHH bridge. TxDOT said a couple days ago that the rain has pushed back the opening a week. But....that does not matter. What matters is they said a month ago that they were going to work 24/7 to finish the project, come hell or high water. Well, they are not working 24/7. Not that anyone really cares, since no one has yet to explain how to even get on the bridge from Downtown.

    Same people who said that the MHH bridge would be open in March are the same ones who said the Northwest Highway bridge and path underneath would be open by now. Instead, they pushed it into the distant future.

    If you want to see something cool, flood wise, check this out, from last night. Below, the walnut tree in the foreground is maybe 200 years old. It's at John Neely Bryan's old cabin site. Man in the foreground is Mr Pemberton, great grandson of the pioneer people who settled that land. The red "X" I marked using photoshop, is the location of a railroad spike driven into the tree during the 1908 flood. Spike is still there. In the background is the Trinity. In normal weather, the river channel is over a mile away! Levee building over the last century has pushed water on the residents not protected by the levees, squeezing water elsewhere, so the current flood level in regards to the tree is more like comparing apples to oranges. Pretty cool though how far the water can move.


  30. #880
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    This Pemberton fellow seems like a genuine badass.
    Tighten the female dog!

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    This is likely the last time we'll see Sylvan Ave closed for flooding. It is my understanding that soon Sylvan will be closed until the new bridge is constructed.

    I took this picture this morning from the just inside the floodway on the north side of Sylvan Ave, looking south.


    IMG_7796 by RCdave, on Flickr

  32. #882
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    Along with fixing the Sylvan bridge, the Wycliff-Market Center-Harry Hines connection needs to be fixed. With better, almost direct access, to the medical facilities and wholesale complex, the new and improved Sylvan Bridge will become a huge benefactor to West Dallas residential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon View Post
    Along with fixing the Sylvan bridge, the Wycliff-Market Center-Harry Hines connection needs to be fixed.
    Since I work in the Dallas Trade Mart and Dallas World Trade Center which are at the intersection of Market Center and Harry Hines, I am all to familiar with the problems with those intersections. I have never heard anything about the city trying to correct any of the problems with that area.

  34. #884
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeroD View Post
    This Pemberton fellow seems like a genuine badass.
    You bet. He has that pioneer blood in him. There are many solid people that live along the river in that part of town that are rock solid. He was gonna try and get me to kiss this crawfish. One of those country boy snipe hunting tricks. This crawfish happened to be carrying egg sacks and we put it back. Otherwise I would have ended up with it attached to my nose, I'm afraid.


  35. #885
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    Calatrava’s $182 Million Bridge Favors Park Over Freeway

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...r-freeway.html

    "I strolled down to the riverfront to have a look at the bridge. As I ducked under railroad viaducts clanking with slow freights, I confronted a spaghetti of elevated highways and ramps that took 10 minutes to traverse. Only homeless men shuffled amid the shadows and hellish din of screeching truck brakes.

    This wasteland walls off the 1.5-mile western edge of downtown from the river. Jails and derelict industry punctuate leftover bits of space. I had to scale a 30-foot levee to reach the river and bridge."

  36. #886
    Super Moderator lakewoodhobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperITL View Post
    "This wasteland walls off the 1.5-mile western edge of downtown from the river. Jails and derelict industry punctuate leftover bits of space. I had to scale a 30-foot levee to reach the river and bridge."
    It is seriously a wasteland. With all this talk about restructuring the Sports Arena TIF to spur growth across the river, I wonder why the city isn't more focused on improving Continental from Houston St to Riverfront. People won't walk or even drive to the Continental Bridge Park if there isn't a safe, well-lit connection from Victory/downtown to the levee.

  37. #887
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member BigD5349's Avatar
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    Interesting article, thanks for posting. I didn't realize Calatrava criticized those sprawling fly over bridges that approach Large Marge from I-35. I'd bet $10 he muted his criticisms while in Dallas since he's trying to get a gig to design I-35 as well.

    Also interesting that the author believes the Trinity Trust has nothing to do with the Trinity Toll Road:

    Cheer on the Trinity Trust, whose vision strategically integrates infrastructure and environment-enhancing investments for economic development.

    Stop the road builders who hope to cram a new highway into the river-bottom parkland. It would entomb the park completely in yet another soon-to-be-clogged roadway and kill investment by further walling off West Dallas.
    I guess Gail Thomas got to this guy and pulled the wool over his eyes. The author is dead on right that the toll road will forever ruin the corridor. But unfortunately, there is absolutely no advocacy group for doing what is right and smart -- I don't think he understands what Trinity Trust is really all about. If they get through the hurdles and ever do eek out enough money to build that toll road, they will be forced to throw out the "context sensitive" BS because it can't be paid for, and we'll wind up with something as awful as the spaghetti string of ramps approaching Large Marge from I-35 and Woodall. Luckily, it can't be built and the budget gaps will protect the river. Thanks to all the, um, "einsteins" who voted for the toll road in 2007, we'll just continue to sit and spin year after year after year.

  38. #888
    Mid-Rise Member Trae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random Traffic Guy View Post
    The next time I hear the comment "why do ya'll have such a big bridge over such a little 'ol river?", I'll be showing them the bridge webcam archive from today. http://trinityrivercorridor.com/brid...ex_nojava.html
    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionDallas View Post
    Tell me about it! I'm sick of it too!
    Well, that it exactly what it is. A big bridge over a tiny river (that could pass as a ditch, tbh) and large floodplain, in the middle of the vast rolling prairie. Makes no sense, but the bridge is nice to look at when it is all lit up and when the Trinity actually does flood. Maybe the appearance will be better if they ever get those lakes up that they want. I, for one, see no purpose for a faux suspension bridge in the middle of the prairie, but I understand there is a vision that the City of Dallas is trying to create, so I applaud them for their effort. Just seems too gaudy tho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trae View Post
    I, for one, see no purpose for a faux suspension bridge
    It's NOT a "faux suspension bridge".

  40. #890
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigT3x View Post
    It's NOT a "faux suspension bridge".
    Its a cable stayed bridge its not a suspension bridge.


    One little note if you go to Google maps today you will notice the new bridge is actually marked as a driveable road that connects Woodall Rogers to Beckley on the other side. Google has been getting more agressive to make sure its road maps are more up to date so I guess that's why they are so quick to add the new connection into their system.
    Last edited by cowboyeagle05; 23 March 2012 at 10:59 AM.

  41. #891
    Mile-High Skyscraper Member rantanamo's Avatar
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    Bridges cross all kinds of things, including train yards, plains, gorges, urban space, valleys, etc. I know that people know that, but this is Dallas, an easy target. So we get made fun of because the bridge crosses water.

  42. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by rantanamo View Post
    Bridges cross all kinds of things, including train yards, plains, gorges, urban space, valleys, etc. I know that people know that, but this is Dallas, an easy target. So we get made fun of because the bridge crosses water.
    Well said. Some people are just ignorant for no reason.
    Cider is an amazing addition to the bars of America but it gives me the worst hangovers......

  43. #893
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trae View Post
    Well, that it exactly what it is. A big bridge over a tiny river (that could pass as a ditch, tbh) and large floodplain, in the middle of the vast rolling prairie. Makes no sense, but the bridge is nice to look at when it is all lit up and when the Trinity actually does flood. Maybe the appearance will be better if they ever get those lakes up that they want. I, for one, see no purpose for a faux suspension bridge in the middle of the prairie, but I understand there is a vision that the City of Dallas is trying to create, so I applaud them for their effort. Just seems too gaudy tho.
    What would you propose that we use to cross this "ditch" if not a bridge?

  44. #894
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    I kinda think the gaudy factor will be a touch high until other Calatrava components of the horizontal landmark are built.

  45. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster View Post
    What would you propose that we use to cross this "ditch" if not a bridge?
    A tunnel to no where!
    Cider is an amazing addition to the bars of America but it gives me the worst hangovers......

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    this looks like somewhere

    IMG_1853 by RCdave, on Flickr

    this looks like somewhere also

    IMG_1645 by RCdave, on Flickr

    I see both sides of the bridge and nowhere is nowhere to be found.

    Full size images of these pictures and others from the west side of the river can be found here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/4878365...7629651852701/
    Last edited by RCdave; 23 March 2012 at 04:13 PM.

  47. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trae View Post
    Just seems too gaudy tho.
    You obviously don't know the correct meaning of gaudy.

  48. #898
    Skyscraper Member Double Wide's Avatar
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    I dont think it goes no where, I'm joking with those that say this is a pointless bridge to nowhere. I had a feeling no one would get it the second i hit submit. I love the bridge. Love seeing the Levees full of water too.
    Cider is an amazing addition to the bars of America but it gives me the worst hangovers......

  49. #899
    Mid-Rise Member Trae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster View Post
    What would you propose that we use to cross this "ditch" if not a bridge?
    Quote Originally Posted by rantanamo View Post
    Bridges cross all kinds of things, including train yards, plains, gorges, urban space, valleys, etc. I know that people know that, but this is Dallas, an easy target. So we get made fun of because the bridge crosses water.
    There are bridges crossing the floodplain now, so of course bridges cross many things. The design is one thing that makes the bridge look out of place to me. The bridge looks cheap. Yes, bridges cross many things, but I've never seen a bridge so expensive and designed to look like a masterpiece (but fails, IMO) span such a insignificant area. Maybe it'll blend in better when the other bridges are built, or maybe they will all look out of place. Like I said before, I saw it lit up before and the light show it had going on looked nice.

    As for it being a suspension bridge or not, I was going by what I read here

    The scary thing, anyway, was the sand.

    In 2009 they started drilling huge holes in the river bottom to sink the piers that would actually carry the weight of the bridge. If it were a real suspension bridge even if you want to call it "cable-stayed bridge," whatever it wouldn't need all those piers, which would be the point of building a suspension bridge in the first place, but ...


    Where clearly the writer got it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChampionDallas View Post
    You obviously don't know the correct meaning of gaudy.
    No, I do.

  50. #900
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double Wide View Post
    I dont think it goes no where, I'm joking with those that say this is a pointless bridge to nowhere. I had a feeling no one would get it the second i hit submit. I love the bridge. Love seeing the Levees full of water too.
    At the risk of "humble-bragging," I knew what you meant the first time.

    Moreover, I'm not sure the important thing for this bridge (or any in Dallas) is that it necessarily goes anywhere (esp. at present). Seems more like the point of the bridge was to be attention-grabbing and architecturally striking. Reasonable minds can differ on whether it succeeds. But the goal is laudable.

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