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Thread: Trinity Bridges

  1. #51
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    Weird that the very minute you guys are wondering and bitching about whether or not there will be enough water in the Trinity to support recreational activities, I was chest deep in nasty ass weeds along the Trinity. Sorry about the sub par quality. I carry a cheapo $100 Kodak when I go mountain biking so the pics and video I have are not as cool as what some of you kids have. I was just standing there, heard a boat in the distance and well, there you have it....



    Confession: I have never seen a motorboat or any boat for that matter along that part of the Trinity. But. Well. There it is. Literally with Downtown in the background.

    They have a special boat for fishing down there it looks like. This was shot where the city wants to spend a kajillion dollars on the fabled "standing wave" thing under the DART bridge.

    I thought I was being quite the Hernando Desoto down there till I saw those guys. Urban fishing is pretty hardcore and a total niche type activity. Who else can pull off something like that? The video as compressed as it is does not show the tackle they are carrying. It looked like saltwater heavy gear probably for alligator gar.

    Anyway, back to the Calatrava. They have another three segments up since the last time I was down in that spot. The guy wires they are using to support the thing sing in the wind like one of those World Cup horns. Really loud.


  2. #52
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    I carry a cheapo $100 Kodak...
    I carry a $130 Kodak. I thought the video was fine, I don't even know how operate it on my camera. I'm curious what this bridge will look like when complete because it doesn't appear all that sexy right now.

  3. #53
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDE
    I'm curious what this bridge will look like when complete because it doesn't appear all that sexy right now.
    I know that's right.

  4. #54
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    Houston-based Williams Brothers Construction Co. Inc.’s winning bid came in at $113 million, nearly double Calatrava’s original $57-million estimate. The budget blow sent both architect and city consultants back to the drawing table until October, when Williams Brothers., the sole bidder in the second round, won again for $69 million.

    Dugger says the price cut was based on value engineering. For instance, the center arch, originally cast to have a heptagonal cross-section, was redesigned as a cylinder. The bridge piers were also tapered into cylinders, down from their teardrop shape.

    Simplified shapes made for simplified fabrication, which brought costs down,” Dugger adds.

    Other adjustments were made, such as replacing a steel drainpipe for a PVC one and using several smaller support beams rather than a few larger ones.

    ...Barring other delays, the cable-stayed bridge should be completed by October 2009.

    Barring other delays, the cable-stayed bridge should be completed by October 2009.


    Meanwhile...

    ...an architectural epilogue to the Hoover Dam is nearly complete: a 1,060-foot, twin-rib concrete bridge floating majestically over the Colorado River.

    ...Two years behind schedule, the $240 million bridge is nearly complete, set to open on the 75th anniversary of the dam in November.

    ...Just as the Hoover Dam was built with the help of artists and sculptors — who weighed in on everything from the restroom entrances to a 142-foot flagpole flanked by two winged sculptured figures — the bridge, too, was built with form as well as function in mind.

    “This place is like a roadway of time,” said John Redding, a spokesman with the Bureau of Reclamation, which manages the dam. “This structure has been here for 75 years, and now another engineering marvel has been added that fast-tracks us into the future. It’s a powerful metaphor when you think about it.”
    Last edited by MDE; 20 June 2010 at 12:30 AM.

  5. #55
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDE
    The sentence structure/grammar.

    Better(,) agreeably so(,) but not (")good(.)(") (Of) course(,) I'm just being a stick (in) the mud when it comes to (having a) showy bridge (in order) to just show (it) off.
    Ahh ok well I'll go over it with my English professor later then.

  6. #56
    Low-Rise Member Dallascaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDE
    The sentence structure/grammar.

    Better(,) agreeably so(,) but not (")good(.)(") (Of) course(,) I'm just being a stick (in) the mud when it comes to (having a) showy bridge (in order) to just show (it) off.
    Bingo.

  7. #57
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member BigD5349's Avatar
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    Was driving down the North Dallas Tollway in to downtown today and noticed how perfectly framed the new bridge will be as you drive in...


  8. #58
    Skyscraper Member Double Wide's Avatar
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    sweet. you gave me a reason to ride the toll way down to Dallas.
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  9. #59
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CasperITL
    Confession: I have never seen a motorboat or any boat for that matter along that part of the Trinity. But. Well. There it is. Literally with Downtown in the background.
    I was surprised at how quiet it is down there. I was expecting to hear a lot more noise from the freeway(s). Is it noisy down there, or were you at a good spot?
    Tighten the female dog!

  10. #60
    Skyscraper Member CasperITL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeroD
    I was surprised at how quiet it is down there. I was expecting to hear a lot more noise from the freeway(s). Is it noisy down there, or were you at a good spot?
    Yeah, that kind of caught me as well when I listened to it. After that guy killed his outboard, it got really quiet.

    That train horn in the background was from a freight train about 3/4 of a mile away, downstream. So sound can carry far. It is also very quiet below the levees along the lower road with the exception being under the I-30 and I-35 bridges. As you move farther north, past Westmoreland, it is dead quiet. I think it is just because you are so isolated down there and away from others.

    They move alot of freight back and forth across the river. Seems like every 10 minutes or so there is a large train rumbling across a bridge. There is a major railyard just off the SM Wright freeway and Overton. They use remote control trains in the yard there, without engineers on board. So it is like a gigantic toy train set.

    This is the rail bridge just south of the SM Wright freeway. Busy rail line. On the north side of the river that rail line has a level crossing at Lamar. It often stops traffic for 10 or more minutes as it lumbers past.


  11. #61
    High-Rise Member boozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcKee
    It is not a suspension bridge, the suspension part is purely decorative.
    Bull.

    I'm not an engineer but I can clearly tell the arch and the cables will hold up the part of the bridge that is not supported by the piers. Go down to the riverbed and see for yourself!

    The misinformation that floats around this city is amazing.

  12. #62
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    Technically, it isn't a suspension bridge, but a cable-stayed bridge:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable-stayed_bridge

    But the cables are, indeed, functional.

  13. #63
    Skyscraper junkie gchrisbailey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigD5349
    Was driving down the North Dallas Tollway in to downtown today and noticed how perfectly framed the new bridge will be as you drive in...

    That is completely awesome!!!

    Being from Charleston, and knowing the process/construction of a cable-stayed bridge, it is going to be an amazing addition to the skyline, especially at night...
    "...Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."

  14. #64
    Please Drive Normally. Random Traffic Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDE
    I'm curious what this bridge will look like when complete because it doesn't appear all that sexy right now.
    If you want a decent idea, look for pics of Calatrava's bridge in Reggio nell'Emilia, Italy. The main span is very close to what I think the IH 30 bridge would have been like (minus a couple arches), and the secondary spans are pretty close to the current bridge under construction (albeit a little smaller and much narrower). MHH being a near-copy of the bridge was commented upon either here or at Unfair Park within the last year, but I can't find the reference. Reviewing Calatrava's work online led me to Reggio nell'Emilia, but since they all start looking the same after a while, there may be others similar as well.

  15. #65
    Super Moderator lakewoodhobo's Avatar
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    The arch will look not too different from this (bridge in Reggio nell'Emilia):



    P.S. There is a new section up today.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeriousSummer
    Technically, it isn't a suspension bridge, but a cable-stayed bridge:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable-stayed_bridge

    But the cables are, indeed, functional.
    Let me rephrase a little bit, the fact that it is a cable-stayed bridge is only because of decorative reasons.

  17. #67
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    The lifespan of a cable-stayed or suspension bridge is supposed to be much longer than a bridge built on piers. The pretty-pretty bridge makes for a stronger road.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon
    The lifespan of a cable-stayed or suspension bridge is supposed to be much longer than a bridge built on piers. The pretty-pretty bridge makes for a stronger road.
    It really like to see a return on cost analysis of that based on the fact that that pretty pretty bridge cost $117M to build and is $60M over the original budget, more than twice what is originally project to cost the city.

    This is a vanity project plain and simple.

  19. #69
    High-Rise Member homeworld1031tx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcKee
    Let me rephrase a little bit, the fact that it is a cable-stayed bridge is only because of decorative reasons.

    I agree, even if it is more durable, I really feel that this is just Dallas' response to being an in-land city with no appreciable body of water near it. We're envious of all those coastal and river cities that are allowed to construct useful decorative bridges over their real bodies of water, so we decided to bridge our 'river' with something extravagant.

    Although I'm not complaining, I'm actually glad they're building it, any addition to the skyline is fine with me

  20. #70
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    Is an added skyline worth $60 MM?

  21. #71
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnMcKee
    It really like to see a return on cost analysis of that based on the fact that that pretty pretty bridge cost $117M to build and is $60M over the original budget, more than twice what is originally project to cost the city.

    This is a vanity project plain and simple.
    I totally agree it's a vanity project, and I'm totally glad the city is paying for the architecture.

    Buried somewhere in one of the many Trinity River Park threads I remember some (probably DMN) articles stacking up the cost of the Calatrava designs against the traditional TxDOT designs. I kinda remember some comments from TxDOT folks along the lines that although the Calatrava designs cost {twice} as much, they would last {twice} as long. Something like, but even with this very imprecise recollection, I've always trusted the sense that the horizontal landmarks were an excellent value for the money -- assuming a public project of this scale should perform its function with a beautiful form.

    Building a lake under the existing starchitecture may be ridiculously counter-intuitive in a coastal city but is one of the oddities of Dallas which eventually will make sense. The Trinity River Park will likely manifest amenities unrecognizable to the planning done under Laura Miller or Ron Kirk. I can only hope matching horizontal landmarks will appear as each highway bridge over the Trinity River is eventually replaced.

  22. #72
    High-Rise Member CDallas's Avatar
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    I hope they get to build all three. These features will finally bring a cohesive quality to downtown and start to bring together the north and the south. Dallas needs this kind of visual element as we do not have natural landmarks.

  23. #73
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member BigD5349's Avatar
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    Yep, a vanity project all the way. The dollars and cents story is that "world class" components are needed to overcome the north-south divide and jumpstart development... or another way of saying it is, what is the best way to throw a match on Singleton Blvd and get developers to come in and grow the tax base south of the Trinity. In many other cities, builiding the park amenities and lakes with connections north and south of the river would be preferred, but this is Dallas, so that means build a freeway inside the levees and hope the Calatrava name and bridge is enough to ignite development on the south side.

    I don't know if it will work. I doubt it. It'll be interesting to see what happens. I personally still believe that building Cowboys stadium in FP would have been a better investment for South Dallas. It's still so unfortunate that the jail is where it is... that would have been prime real estate to realize some return on the Trinity project. I think a good investment would be moving it elsewhere if they can ever figure out how to get the TRP really moving.

  24. #74
    Member stangmrb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon
    Building a lake under the existing starchitecture may be ridiculously counter-intuitive in a coastal city but is one of the oddities of Dallas which eventually will make sense. The Trinity River Park will likely manifest amenities unrecognizable to the planning done under Laura Miller or Ron Kirk. I can only hope matching horizontal landmarks will appear as each highway bridge over the Trinity River is eventually replaced.
    I couldn't agree more. IMHO the Trinity River Project, and more specifically the urban lake(s) and Calatrava bridges, will prove to be the second most effective catalyst Dallas will experience to push it toward becoming the enviously visitable/dense/new urbanist/European style/walkable city that I believe it will be eventually. The primary catalyst that needs to happen is a rapid (but smart) expansion of the DART rail and connecting streetcar system...but that's another discussion.

    Geneva's lakefront, Chicago and London's riverfronts, and Vancouver's waterfront are how I hope the Trinity in Dallas will someday look. Not any day soon enough that I will be able to remember this post, perhaps not any day in my lifetime, but some day.

    Re-reading the above, I realize that I sound hopelessly and naively optimistic. But if you stop to think about how long it's taken the great cities of the world to become great, you can't help but be even slightly giddy about the long (long long) term potential for the big D given the stuff we've got going on now.

  25. #75
    Low-Rise Member NTexUnited's Avatar
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    The Gateway Arch and Eiffel Tower were "vanity projects." At least ours has a purpose, other than making pretty postcards.

  26. #76
    Skyscraper Member Double Wide's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NTexUnited
    The Gateway Arch and Eiffel Tower were "vanity projects." At least ours has a purpose, other than making pretty postcards.
    So Was Golden Gate Bridge.
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  27. #77
    Mid-Rise Member Dbadger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NTexUnited
    The Gateway Arch and Eiffel Tower were "vanity projects." At least ours has a purpose, other than making pretty postcards.
    And Lady Liberty, and I'm glad we have her.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dbadger
    And Lady Liberty, and I'm glad we have her.
    Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French.

  29. #79
    Super Moderator lakewoodhobo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torycronin
    Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French.
    Not to get too technical, but I believe the U.S. had to build the base, which I'm sure wasn't cheap. It's pretty safe to say some thought it was an expensive vanity project before it became the icon that it is now. I'm not trying to say our bridge will be anything close to Eifel Tower or Lady Liberty, but let's admit that big structures become icons as they age with our city. Eifel Tower is a perfect example: it was built for an expo, and many people thought it was hideous. There was a serious effort to tear it down afterwards.

    Back on topic, there is another piece on the bridge today. It looks like there is just one piece left to complete the arch.
    Last edited by lakewoodhobo; 23 June 2010 at 03:17 PM.

  30. #80
    Frank Lloyd Wright Member
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    I don't put our bridge even close to those structures. Each one commemorated something historical (Westward expansion that along with the Civil War defined our country for the next 150 years through the only eastern starting point), was part of an exposition with generational impact, or was the only way to construct something over a very challenging waterway.

    Our bridge crosses over a ditch with the sole purpose that it'll look good in post cards.

  31. #81
    Skyscraper Member Mark Lea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    I don't put our bridge even close to those structures. Each one commemorated something historical (Westward expansion that along with the Civil War defined our country for the next 150 years through the only eastern starting point), was part of an exposition with generational impact, or was the only way to construct something over a very challenging waterway.

    Our bridge crosses over a ditch with the sole purpose that it'll look good in post cards.

    but it sure will look good!

    In all honesty, I actually can see this bridge as a turning point for the immediate area that could very well be viewed down the road as historical. Clearly it wouldn't be on the same scale, but still...

    Edit: There are some great photos on the Trinity Trusts facebook page from a few days ago
    Last edited by Mark Lea; 23 June 2010 at 04:08 PM.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDallas
    I hope they get to build all three. These features will finally bring a cohesive quality to downtown and start to bring together the north and the south. Dallas needs this kind of visual element as we do not have natural landmarks.
    It already feels that way to me with the progress made thus far on the bridge. Going east on I-30 it feels as if Dallas no longer ends at the Trinity when you look at it and I am sure it will look even better once the cables are added.

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakewoodhobo
    Not to get too technical, but I believe the U.S. had to build the base, which I'm sure wasn't cheap.
    $100,000. Congress wouldn't appropriate the money (other cities, including Cleveland, said they would pay for it if the statue were placed in their city). Big private donors didn't pick up the ball. Finally Joseph Pulitzer began writing a series of articles appealing to the common man. Something like 120,000 people donated.

    I think I read in the past that it was the original March of Dimes, but I can't find that now.

    I did find this about the builder, from 1893:

    The present building supplanted a five-story edifice in 1889. The builder was David H. King, Jr., who built the pedestal for the Statue of Liberty. The work was done as if by magic. The entire fifteen stories were constructed without interfering with the work in the offices, and the Times was published every day. The chief materials are Hallowell granite and Indiana oolitic stone ; it is a treasure of architecture, bold, moderate, discreet, vigorous ; it charms the boor and the philosopher, and is the spirit of the Times newspaper expressed in stone.

    Near to this, on the grandest architectural square in the Western Hemisphere, towers the vast body of the World Building, by the same architect. When it was finished it was the highest office building in the world. The World Building has the most office floors of any edifice in New York, having 20 stories and being 309 feet from sidewalk to lantern. It is said that Mr. Pulitzer wanted the editorial rooms several feet higher than any other office building in the city.


    (world building)
    Last edited by MDE; 23 June 2010 at 10:38 PM.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by torycronin
    Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French.
    Exactly, shoot they were willing to create a vanity project and not even reap the benefits of such a wonderful structure. They gave it away to another country. Why can't we have some vanity projects. I mean do we always deny ourselves a nice new necklace or bangin speakers for our car because they're "vanity" items. I mean you have to live within your means but why not do something to beautify our city and enhance the urban expanse? I recently went to NYC for my first time and I was absolutely blown away by the architecture, parks, statues et al. The entrance to Prospect Park at Grand Army Plaza alone made me so envious. So in my opinion I'm very happy and excited to see this bridge going up.

  35. #85
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Not saying that these bridges will compare to the Taj Mahal, the Pyramids of Giza, the Forbidden City, and other notable structures, but those structures like our bridges are monuments to vanity. Vanity is in humanity's DNA.
    Tighten the female dog!

  36. #86
    High-Rise Member CDallas's Avatar
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    Without vanity Dallas and most of the people that live here would not exist. Vanity is a good thing.

  37. #87
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    Spending money on jewelry or "bangin speakers" while you can't pay your mortgage, heat your home, or educate your children is a stupid choice. I assume it's from the if you don't make it, fake it school of personal responsibility. You spend money on vanity when you can afford it. Our finances clearly indicate we can't afford it.

  38. #88
    Mega-Tall Skyscraper Member AeroD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    Spending money on jewelry or "bangin speakers" while you can't pay your mortgage, heat your home, or educate your children is a stupid choice. I assume it's from the if you don't make it, fake it school of personal responsibility. You spend money on vanity when you can afford it. Our finances clearly indicate we can't afford it.
    Dude, there would be no economy if people lived within their means.
    Tighten the female dog!

  39. #89
    High-Rise Member CDallas's Avatar
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    You can spend more you just have to tax more. You get what you pay for. If you want to pay plain Jane taxes then you can expect to live in a plain Jane city. I will pay more to live more.

  40. #90
    The Urban Pragmatist Mballar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    Spending money on jewelry or "bangin speakers" while you can't pay your mortgage, heat your home, or educate your children is a stupid choice. I assume it's from the if you don't make it, fake it school of personal responsibility. You spend money on vanity when you can afford it. Our finances clearly indicate we can't afford it.
    What are you talking about? The Hunt-Hill bridge has been funded by TXDot, municipal bonds, and significant private donations for some time now.
    A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato

  41. #91
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    Who repays municipal bonds? Who is going to pay to maintain a much more complex structure?

  42. #92
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    Who repays municipal bonds? Who is going to pay to maintain a much more complex structure?
    28 million dollars for that bridge is a STEAL. Besides, the extension was going to be built anyway, so if we can get private entities to pony up the money for a TRULY iconic structure, then why not? The money that TxDOT spends maintaining this bridge will likely be mad up by the fact that it will last twice as long as a "plain jane" one. I con only imagine what construction costs will be 30 or so years from now.

  43. #93
    Supertall Skyscraper Member electricron's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Great web site for more information on Dallas's new Trinity River bridges.
    http://www.trinityrivercorridor.org/...y_bridges.html

    Total estimated cost for the bridge (including connections outside the levees) is $115 million, The City’s contribution for bridge construction and right-of-way is capped at $28 million from Trinity River Corridor Project bond funds approved by voters in 1998. Federal and state agencies, and private donations, will provide additional funding for the structure. Through the generosity of private citizens and charitable foundations, donations totaling more than $5 million have been raised to fund the signature design of the Woodall Rodgers Extension Bridge. City Council awarded a design contract to world-renowned bridge designer Santiago Calatrava in January 2002.
    In February 2005, Hunt Petroleum Company of Dallas generously donated $12 million to the Trinity River Corridor Project. The City of Dallas in turn granted them naming rights to the Woodall Rodgers Extension Bridge. It is now named the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge, in honor of the matriarch of the Hunt family.

    Therefore, contributions to fund this bridge comes from
    a) Private donations at $17 million.
    b) City's bonds at $28 million.
    c) Highway taxes at $75 million.

    Last edited by electricron; 24 June 2010 at 03:44 PM.

  44. #94
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    $103 million for the bridge is not a steal.

    Situation reminds me of stories of English duke that incurred debts to maintain a lifestyle and then died leaving big debts to his heir. His heir with no money but a title then weds rich daughter of newly rich merchant from America looking to add class to his line.

    Great story except no one is interested in marrying Dallas to pay our bills. We are not that great. Every dollar we now waste will come from some future service we cannot provide.

  45. #95
    Skyscraper Member ksig121's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjblazin
    $103 million for the bridge is not a steal.
    103 million wouldn't be a steal. 28 Million is. I'm only talking about the municipal bond portion as mentioned in your previous post.

  46. #96
    High-Rise Member CDallas's Avatar
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    At this point it is being built and I am only concerned about the effect it has on the future or our city and specifically the downtown area of Dallas. I really would not care if it was 300 million at this point. All of the number crunching is looking backwards.

  47. #97
    Lakewooder Lakewooder's Avatar
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    $17 million in private donations is pretty good. The Collin County Arts Center (proposed) can't even raise a fraction of that..

  48. #98
    Super Moderator cowboyeagle05's Avatar
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    All I ask is that people understand that this bridge is vanity project and I don't mean that in a negative light either. When I first studied the plan of the Trinity Project back in early 2000 I understood the bridges were more show than absolutely necessary beyond just connecting to the other side of the river. I supported the large impressive bridges then and I support them now. It's a little sad that the I-30 bridge wasn't done first in some cases due to the fact that the current one is in dire need of placement.

  49. #99
    Mid-Rise Member
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    Dec 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyeagle05
    When I first studied the plan of the Trinity Project back in early 2000 I understood the bridges were more show than absolutely necessary
    What tipped you off?

  50. #100
    Mid-Rise Member
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    Dec 2007
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    View from the webcam minutes ago (I changed the exposure and cropped it):


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