Reply With QuoteMaybe he's talking about the trolleys on Market Street...they are also antique cars.
SF has cable cars. The cable is gripped by a vise-like mechanism and I suppose this serves to better guide the trolleys than MATA's cars (which rely on tracks), producing less friction.
"There is much to admire, but little to deplore,—many things to enchant, but few to offend,—and for the people, and their institutions, there is a splendid future, behold what you may, see what you can, believe {what you} have a mind to. . .I have given you a very reliable description of the country in which I live and am unwilling to exchange for the frozen North."
—M. J. Mathis of Dallas County, writing to friends in 1859
www.haribon.org.ph
Maybe he's talking about the trolleys on Market Street...they are also antique cars.
They use both the cable car and a form of "light rail" (which I equate to our trolley system). Either way, both of those systems are significantly quieter than our MATA...I was just curious why that was...
ACE?
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
Garrett, that's a good question.
The San Francisco surface trolley, the F line, uses trackage dating from the early 20th century and meticulously maintained ever since. The roadbed is probably very stable and level. It runs on their main street, Market Street, and so maintenance is a high visibility endeavor. There is also a light rail system, the Muni Metro, that is a subway in the downtown area and onward to a district about 2/3 of the way to the ocean, a place called West Portal.... This trackage is a combination of new construction over rock, or rehabbed construction inside a tunnel drilled thru solid rock.
The cable cars do make a lot of screeching noises when they turn off of Powell street to get to the Hyde street pier, and also make noise when they are going down Nob Hill and the operator applies the wooden brakes... I'll never forget the odor of burning wood on those brakes... but it is not an unpleasant odor...
Bottom line... our ROW (right of way) on McKinney Avenue is probably not as flat and even as SF's Market Street F Line... or perhaps Trolleygirl or Haretip could comment ...
Well, there are a few things that may be different between Muni and MATA.
Minimum turning radius at MATA has, in places, been compressed to a minimum. I think there are a few curves that have a 45 foot or tighter turning radius, where our preference for minimum turning radius is 50 foot. You start trying to push n 8.5 foot wheelbase streetcar through a 40 foot radius curve and there is a lot of stress going on.
We do run a single-truck streetcar, which is noisier and bumpier than a double truck streetcar. As mentioned, the wheelbase is about 8.5 feet, where the wheelbase on DT cars is about 5 feet.
A lot of the track in McKinney Avenue and some on Cole Avenue is original track. The route was established in 1889 and the track was probably last rehabbed in 1923 by Dallas Railway & Terminal before being paved over with asphalt in 1956. Uncovered in 1983(?), it has some surface defects/pitting and there are numerous utility cuts that had to be repaired. Muni's track has probably been kept in better condition or is newer construction.
The new switches on the Cityplace extension are not the correct switches for MCB profile wheels. Also, they were not flange-bearing switches and the plates retro-fitted into the switches were not ramped, causing the car to fall about a 1/2 inch after leaving the plate. These switches have caused damage to the streetcars in addition to being noisy, including the snapping of an axle and the breaking of two 1-3/4 inch diameter (read BIG) bolts on the car sideframe.
Track constructed on wood crossties on ballast with an asphalt overlay has lower resilient noise than track constructed in a concrete slab. All of the new track on MATA is concrete slab method.
The cable cars are open cars, which affects the noise level (or at least your perception of the amount of noise in the car).
MATA was done by a bunch of volunteers and civic-minded businessmen. Their total startup budget was just over $6 million. MUNI is a giant, municipal organization that spent (do your best Carl Sagan impersonation here) MILLIONS and MILLIONS of dollars on track, infrastructure and cars. Perhaps they have automatic lubricators to quiet the cars on curves, or a superb track maintenance staff to weld up the tiniest rail defect.
But the hard, fast truth (in addition to the items listed above) is that MATA has struggled for about ten years trying to keep the line open and the cars are noisier than they used to be. I can attest to that, having been an operator since the early 1990's. Before the Cityplace extension was built, MATA struggled with a lack of ridership and income that prevented major overhauls of the equipment. After the extension, MATA has a hard time pulling cars out of service long enough to undertake major overhauls of the equipment. It is hard to maintain 3 car rush hour service commitments when you only have 3 reliably operating cars. If one car breaks down or is out for extended maintainance, the there goes your service level.
With the addition of the new PCC-type Tandy car, No. 143 (which was in today's Dallas Morning News), there will be the ability to do the work that has been needed for so long on the other cars. They have been running 15 years straight with no major overhaul/restoration.
Wow, thanks for the information Haretip. Sounds like MATA just needs more money, money, money, resources, volunteers, and money.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
Indeed it does. Does the "money" part of the problem seem to be getting any better? Ridership is certainly up, but does that increase your revenue from advertisments at all? And if so, is it even enough of a rise to mean anything but an additional box of donuts for operaters every few months? Are there any ideas floating around in MATA as to how to obtain more funds?
Sorry, I am not privy to the ledger and/or financial plans of MATA. That would have been a question for Trolleygirl before she became VickeyMeadowsGirl.
I can say that I think their finances are better. They could use additional cars to help give the old ones a rest (which is part of the reason for acquiring the Tandy Car). Unfortunately, to add cars, you have to add car storage space since the carbarn is FULL. Adding a carbarn somewhere on the line is an expensive proposition since MATA runs through a pricey neighborhood, not to mention the cost of the building and track itself. I think MATA has planned for all this with a new carbarn proposed for the intersection of St. Paul and San Jacinto (in front of the Cotton Exchange Building Memorial Parking Lot). It just takes money and time.
I think we need Portlandish streetcars. Modern. the M-line is awfully noisy, and I would suspect that a modern streetcar's noise is comparable to a LRT vehicle.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
IF given the choice, I'd rather have a nice, quick, quiet, smooth trolly connecting the neighborhoods around the CBD than three pretty bridges over the Trinity River flood zone. If we want to be a liveable, urban cityscape, we gotta have more choices to get around. Preaching to the choir, I know....
Yeah I rode that car on Monday...loved it! Much quieter than any of the others and seemed smoother. I love the exterior paint job. But one thing was...and i may not be the brightest bulb...but my parents and i were ridding it and couldn't figure out how to "buzz" to stop! so just got up and told the driver.
Don't ever say that again.Originally Posted by drumguy8800
urban, i would bet if we did have streetcars like that they would be filled almost all the time...i quit riding the m-line when it came to commuting to work in the summer...too bloody hot in a suit! plus, (sorry y'all) but their schedule never seemed to be very precise...always late...it seemed most of the time 'cause they broke down. it's great to have the vintage cars...but i think they need to stick to private parties or a few runs on weekends, but for the commuter, it should be more modern with a/c.
and actually didn't i see somewhere that some of these new/modern cars can be designed like the old ones, so they don't look so "star wars/spaceship"?
Now you're talkin'! But then, what to do with the old cars?
A/c them and have two at a time as West End circulators; otherwise they can run for parties and holidays.
Are there plans for or talk of the trolley extending up Turtle Creek?
How about put them all in one big museum. It could be all dedicated to dallas/ft worth rail, you know, the old interurban, cotton belt line, stuff like that. Just an idea...
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
We have one in Fair Park: the Age of Steam Railroad Musuem.
In my perfect world (where gas taxes go to fund transit improvements, not build highways to nowhere), that museum should be the southern terminus of a trolley line that stretches from Fair Park (and the LRT station), up to Main Street through Deep Ellum and on through Downtown. Run it up Lamar to serve the West End, then up McKinney to connect with the existing MATA line.
No, this isn't a line for commuters. It's for tourists, and locals like me who like to take the kids out for some historic fun. Also, it'll be good for the syncopation (uneven movement from bar to bar) in Deep Ellum. In fact, it could be part of an expanded entertainment district -- connect West End and Deep Ellum via Main Street. Leave the wig shops on Main, though... they add "character".
Imagine all the restaurants and clubs from Knox-Henderson to West End to Deep Ellum, all connected together with a streetcar that conveniently meets up with LRT at both ends and in the middle. That would do more for Dallas' "image" than an overpriced "signature bridge" over the man-made creek we call the Trinity River. IMHO, the "signature bridge" is going to make us a laughingstock. It makes as much sense as moving London Bridge to Arizona.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Aren't the cable cars in San Francisco powered by gravity?
As on car goes down hill... it pulls the other up hill.
The MATA is a great novelty. It's cute. It looks good.
But it isn't a transit system. The second the streetcars become comfortable, quiet, and climate controlled will be when Dallas has a real trolley.
exactly. whatever happened to trolleygirl..?
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
Excellent point Robert. I have operated the trolleys for one shift every week for almost three years and I see the abuse that these old girls take. The line was originally intended to be a tourist attraction in the guise of the only all-volunteer trolley line in the nation operated on public right-a-ways. We have succeeded in most of our goals so far, but money and volunteers are always needed if expansion is desired or even an option. Always remember that the M-Line is complimentary to any regional transit plan, but is a separate 501(c)3 non-profit operating for the benefit of the public in a way that differs from the business plan and mission statement of DART. Thanks.
"To be intimate with a foolish friend is like going to bed with a razor."
I wonder how many riders don't realize that the M-Line isn't directly subsidized by DART? It's easy to forget, since DART has promoted the line with signage and notes in the schedule.
Any of the streetcar line expansions I've dreamed up (like in the "downtown subway" thread ) would almost surely have to be paid for by hard tax dollars, and not just by donations. That would require significant changes to the way MATA is run, I'm sure. Would that loss of independence be worth it for an expanded system, or are we better off with an independent non-profit running a small section of track?
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
first of all...I must say that this is coming from my knowledge and is not verbatim MATA policy. Furthermore, the opinions I espouse are mine and although they coincide 95+% of the time with MATA, they are still my opinions and should not be taken as promissory or for any other reason.
You are both right and wrong about our DART funding. DART is a net-contributor to MATA due to the strengthening of the cooperation after the elimination of 2 bus lines when the new northern loop expansion was opened. We do get funding these days for those routes we have eliminated, but we have an operating agreement that basically says we will keep a regular schedule for DART's purposes. Other than that, the obligations are more opaque and even less demanding.
Hard v. Soft dollars is relative, as maching funds from the federal government help to subsidize projects that would otherwise be impossible to build. TEA and TEA 21 and "ICE TEA" all have had federal matching funds with set minimum contributions that trigger government funds.
I am not quite sure that this is a total either/or sort of paradigm for expansion. We have been very successful in increasing ridership over the past 2 years. As long as we have cooperation from the improvement districts, then anything is basically possible with the M-Line. The inability to do anything other than "master plan" is the real problem with the IDs...a series of incremental service area increases would serve the public best and would serve as a sort of labratory to guage public reaction to the service. The "hit 'em with one big shot after years and years of opinion studies is ultimately unsatisfactory for almost everyone involved...lot's of paper to push around, so bureaucrats are happy, but that is about it..."
That being said, don't be surprised about West End to Knox being a reality within 10 years....
"To be intimate with a foolish friend is like going to bed with a razor."
actually, they have power plants that drive large wheels with the cable speed being constant and controlled by the motors, like a gondola/chair lift cable that is constantly in motion. The cable runs between powerplants under the street. There is a slot in the street which allows the trolley's "gripper" to engage the cable. The "Gripman" pulls a lever back and "grips" the cable to accelerate forward. The max speed going uphill is the speed of the cable and the max speed downhill is whatever speed you can attain by gravity after releasing the cable. However, it is quite rare for a "gripman" to ever release the cable, as it is very dangerous to go fast with a cable car due to the lack of extremely strong/reliable brakes for high speed.
Trolley cars are driven by electric motors and the drivers are called "motormen" to distinguish them from their peers driving cable cars. The world trolley comes from the world troll, as in trolling for fish, as in dragging a line behind a boat. The pole is trolled along the electric line to gather electricity. Trolley cars were actually called trolling cars in the beginning, but trolling became tolley in street vernacular.
So, if anyone wants to know even more inane stuff about trolleys, they should go join up to be a volunteer at MATA...it is fun and the people are very nice.
"To be intimate with a foolish friend is like going to bed with a razor."
Several months ago, in the Downtown Subway thread, Haretip posted this message:
I took the kids for a ride on the rails last Sunday, taking the LRT to Cityplace and then MATA to the St. Paul terminus, with the short walk back to the St. Paul LRT station. I asked the driver about the plans for the car barn at San Jacinto, and he noted that the plans are moving forward for the MATA expansion. There's nothing at the http://www.mata.org/ site, so that may have just been a general "yeah, eventually" statement. But in case it's going to happen, I wanted to throw together a map of the route Haretip described.
MATA folks, does this seem to match what you've heard/seen?
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
I just can't picture them running the trolley down Pearl St in that area. There's so much traffic, I'm sure there would be a lot of accidents.
Those are some awsome plans! I wish they would get some modern cars though..you know, ones with air conditioning. The idea to bring it right up to the West End Station is cool.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
That was my thought as well. If you run it down the right lane, you generate a big traffic headache. Same with the left side, except that you get to have head-on collisions as well. You can't run it down the median, because you'll end up with Passenger Mousse on a regular basis -- it's hard enough for the drivers to stop McKinney traffic. But I don't think there's any way across Woodall Rodgers unless you change lanes (ouch!) to get to the median... then you have to change lanes again (bam!) if you hope to serve the next two blocks.
I'd like to propose the Leonard St. alternative. Instead of turning down Pearl (or Olive, which is just as bad), continue another block down San Jacinto to Leonard St. Take Leonard to the Woodall Rodgers frontage road -- note that this routing puts the trolley on the frontage road *after* I-45 traffic has already been diverted to the highway. This route would serve the Meyerson Center's back door, and run right through the middle of Dallas' proposed Arts District expansion.
To cross the highway, follow the frontage road to Routh St. and go under the bridge, staying in the right curb lane the whole time. Follow "Maple-Routh Connector" and meet up with the existing line by turning right on Leonard St. This prevents the trolley from getting caught up in the traffic at Maple & McKinney. You could also follow Routh St. as an alternative routing.
The distance is a bit longer, but I suspect that the complexities of building and operating in Pearl St. outweigh the extra cost of the Leonard St. alternative.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Oh, yeah. We can just park all the streetcars at Hotel ZaZa as they get stacked up in the valet traffic on Friday and Saturday nights.
The further east you go before you turn back north toward McKinney Avenue, the more original outbound track is abandonded and the more expensive the route becomes. Realize that MATA has a finite amount of money left to do this expansion with. They are trying to be realistic with their options
You pretty much nailed the route that has already had significant engineering done to it before being abandoned as too expensive. The only difference is that access to the carbarn would be in a backing move into the east end of the carbarn after passing north of it on San Jacinto.
I have recently been shown four new routes that are being evaluated. The new primary goal for extension is no longer the West End, but DART's St.Paul Light Rail Station. There are some VERY interesting ouside-the-box ideas including running from the end of line at Ross, down St. Paul to Bryan and then left onto the sidewalk. Along the sidewalk of Bryan to Olive or Pearl or whatever the return street was.
Other proposals include turning left on Federal and going under the building over to the return street, and I think one proposal included turning right on Federal and looping back via Ervay to MckInney Avenue.
The extension is under serious study right now. These things take time, especially when everytime a route is selected something pops up that makes it too expensive.
As for cars, the idea is to build new air conditioned replica cars as well as major overhauls of the existing equipment when the Tandy car is ever in dependable running condition. I have begun to lobby for a vacuum cleaner for commuter rush hour service, but I have very little say over what they do over there.
That sounds like a really bad idea.
HT, you've begun to lobby for a vacuum, but, is it for speed and extra dependability that you're looking for - or one or the other? I need to go take another look at the price difference (and other differences of note) between replicas and vacuums.
OK, by sidewalk I mean the area between the DART track and the face of the buildings. That's not to say that the DART track would not be realigned to give more space for the third set of tracks or that passengers waiting for a DART train would be forced to dive off the tracks when the streetcar comes round.
I feel that with the extension to Cityplace station and the eventual extension to St Paul Station and elsewhere, MATA needs to become the Dallas equivalent of San Francisco MUNI - a local circulator. I have no problem keeping the historic equipment for the tourist and off-hours, but for the comfort and convenience of commuters, get some new stuff. Muni is responsible for a mix of modern and historic equipment.
Realize that transit service is demanding on 90 year old streetcars made of wood and iron. The existing cars are artifacts and by using them in transit service, you are consuming them. It would be better for the cars if MATA had a modern equivalent to take the load of morning and evening commute.
Also, I am using the vacuum cleaner term tongue in cheek. I am not particularly found of overly drastic designs because stuff that looks really different and unusual now will look really dated in a few years. I like the KISS principle - no computer controls that require a PHD to find the faulty fuse or bad line of code, and no wacky fiberglass cowlings.
I totally agree about at least striving to have a MUNI-fashioned circulator fleet. Bring on the J-Church and N-Judah.
And, I've definitely always agreed about having old (current) and new (replicas or modern), for their own separate reasons also.
I'm still either/or on a nice replica and an alternate - a mostly glass-box lowrider that is not too over-the-top in design. I do see the points either way on new vehicle acquisitions.
You guys brought up new cars and used MUNI as an example. I would just love to see MATA get somthing like these:
But I guess funding is always an issue.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
I like the idea of just running down to St. Paul Station, and after driving through downtown this morning I'm not as worried about an Olive St. route -- it's one way (the right way), but you'd have to use the left curb lane due to the freeway offramp.
Will they let you copy the maps? If not, I could be persuaded to draw up a few of my own. Actually, you'd have a hard time persuading me *not* to draw a map of my own...
FWIW, I also agree with the concept of building replica trolley cars instead of opting for some fiberglass-sheathed urban monstrosity. Looks matter, especially when you consider that the merchants who help support the system see it as a primo marketing tool. But is there anyone out there building working replica trolley cars these days?
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Yes, there are plenty of replica trolley cars. Gomaco Trolley Co. has been doin' them for quite awhile.
1. Is this something that DART can be approached about? After all, MATA is becoming DART's little cousin in Uptown.
2. Why are we (powers that be) using lack of funding as a deterrent to expanding the MATA system the "right way?" Seems like the Love Field Tunnel problem revisited. The powers that be should change their attitudes about funding. Lets figure out how to secure the funds needed to do expand MATA's system the right way. After all, as Uptown continues to develop and become more dense, the trolley will inevitably be used for more practical purposes as opposed to just an historical amusement ride.
3. Does anyone know when construction of the turntable at Cityplace Station's west entrance is going to get underway?
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
Thanks for the info! Here's a link: http://www.gomacotrolley.com/index.html
Definitely worthy of a :slobber: emoticon.
Here's something interesting:
http://www.gomacotrolley.com/Resourc...gleclosed.html
This semi-convertible, single-truck car was manufactured by Gomaco Trolley Company for display at the APTA International Public Transit Expo '93. The car is a shortened, single-truck version of the 4100 series car manufactured by the St. Louis and Laconia Car Company for the Bay State Railway in the early 1900s. Though not a replica of an actual car, accuracy to the time period and attention to detail were key factors in production of the car.
After the APTA Expo, this trolley car enjoyed a testing period in Dallas, Texas, and then found its home on the rails in Memphis, Tennessee.
Haretip, did they run this car on the MATA lines? How did that go?
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
GOMACO cars are electrically powered and do carry passengers, but they are a little too glittery and artificial.
MATA has the ability to build reproduction cars and has expressed a desire to do that. Gomaco cars run $650,000 plus each. MATA can do it for $350,000 to $500,000.
DART is involved in the planning of the extension. The head of DART is on the board of directors of MATA.
The options have been lined up in a planning matrix to analyse the strengths and weaknesses of each route. I probably can not access a copy immediately, but let me ask.
The Gomaco single truck car did test here in Dallas. It was cool. I have issues with the design of the truck (wheels) under the car, but it was a good looking car and was fun to borrow. I think we had it for a week or at least a long weekend.
There has been a change in the thinking of the leadership of MATA of the need to address the demands of the commuting public instead of just the tourists. It has taken a long time to get to that mindset and the change is not complete yet.
MATA fears loss of control of a system they fought very hard to build. They have a lot of sweat equity, time and cold hard cash invested in the system and they don't want DART taking over. MATA has built an excellent relationship with DART over the past 5-10 years, but a part of them still wants to protect their fiefdom.
I don't have an answer why turntable isn't in yet. It is not needed for the single end cars yet, and it may be that they don't have the local match funds or don't want to spend the local match yet.
I begged you: Stop me before I draw again! But would you listen?
Note that I'm routing the trolley up the left-hand curb lane on Olive. Otherwise, that cloverleaf will dump freeway traffic right into Haretip's lap. I also assumed a left-hand alignment on Ervay, largely to get another 50 feet between the inbound and outbound lines. I can't find a fourth alignment in Haretip's message... that must be the Tunnel Alignment.
The three routes noted each have their problems, of course:
* Running the MATA rails onto the Brian St. sidewalk will require some serious engineering and risk avoidance. Otherwise, the day will come when someone moves out of the way of a streetcar and falls under an LRT car. Moving the LRT rails might help the geometry, but not the bottom line -- not to mention the LRT service disruption involved.
* Federal Street looks like a nice alternative. I hardly ever see any traffic on it any time I'm running across it from St. Paul Station to the 205's stop on San Jacinto. But going under the building presents an interesting problem: can you safely and cheaply run the electric line under there? This alternative will require cooperation from the building owners.
* Returning up Ervay sidesteps these problems, but there's one big drawback: it's only a short block away from St. Paul, so you're double-serving one narrow strip of downtown. A return up Olive, on the other hand, gets the trolley into the Arts District. Much more bang for the buck.
My preferred alternative is to solve the wiring issue on the Federal Street alignment. It sounds cheaper, and it's really more convenient to St. Paul Station than a sidewalk alignment. The building there has an overhang, so you can get from the LRT to the trolley without getting rained on! Two thumbs up.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Just a note about the Olive St. routing. While heading home last night, I couldn't get across Harwood to the Woodall frontage road, so I turned down tiny Flora St, and saw the Nasher Sculpture Garden for the first time. How cool -- that's definitely my next stop when I take the kids downtown. There was a catered dinner going on as well, with a chef in his silly hat, standing like a statue as a couple dozen impeccably dressed folks conversed amongst themselves. As I waited at the brick-paved corner, I could see the Myerson Center in the next block. The only thing that could have made the scene any more perfect would have been to see one of MATA's old-time streetcars heading up Olive St... at that moment, it was almost as though it were already there.
Then the light changed, and I threaded back through the traffic to the faceless freeway, heading home to the sticks. We've got fence repair this weekend, 'cause the horses keep getting out.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ars.a247c.html
Downtown streetcar plan pitched to city
Council, DART agree to study idea to bolster economic development
08:55 PM CST on Monday, December 13, 2004
By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News
As revolutionary as they are retro, streetcars should play a starring role in downtown Dallas' economic redevelopment, some city officials say.
Specific plans and cost estimates for lining downtown streets with rails, as they were decades ago before burgeoning automobile use prompted their demise, are very preliminary. A proposal presented by supporters to the Dallas City Council's transportation and telecommunications committee on Monday suggested a three-line system linking with the Dallas Area Rapid Transit light rail system and administered in part by DART.
City Council and DART board members agreed to investigate the idea, which might lead to the formation of a public/private streetcar investigation committee – or a more powerful, semi-private "local government corporation" – under the name Dallas Streetcar Inc.
"We're not asking the city to give us money," said Miguel A. Del Valle II, chief executive officer of Pegasus Parking Ventures, who with Raymond E. Stanland of the Dallas-based Stanland & Associates urban design and planning firm presented a 14-page streetcar plan to the council and DART members.
"The only critical thing now is to get a high-level policy group in place that we can work with. We're not asking anyone to buy a pig in a poke here," Mr. Stanland added.
Skepticism among some DART officials lingered, however.
"Dallas is not a tourist city downtown, although I'm willing to look at exploring it. But at what expense?" DART board member Beatrice Alba Martinez said. "I know you're not asking for money – now. Everything costs money."
Said DART board member Terri Adkisson, "I wouldn't want to commit DART to it unless I know we could do it right."
The lone active streetcar system in Dallas runs along the Uptown section of McKinney Avenue to the northern edge of downtown.
The new system suggested in the streetcar presentation would connect with the McKinney Avenue trolley line and might circulate throughout downtown's arts district, down Ross Avenue and back up San Jacinto Street and along Main Street.
Like the McKinney line but unlike DART light rail trains, Mr. Stanland and Mr. Del Valle said, the streetcars would share roads with automobile traffic. The streetcars themselves may also look similar to DART trains, as opposed to the McKinney line's vintage streetcars.
Federal transportation grants, parking meter fees from private auto garages and money from downtown business owners are potential funding sources, Mr. Stanland and Mr. Del Valle said.
Council member Bill Blaydes, for one, is sold.
"If DART doesn't want to do it, the city of Dallas better darn well sure get into the middle of it and get it done," Mr. Blaydes said.
To get from one side of downtown to another, Mr. Blaydes said, he's forced to drive, then search in vain for parking.
"I'm a fat white man who doesn't like to walk," he said jokingly. "For people living and working downtown, it is a need now, and we need to get it done as quickly as possible."
Transportation and Telecommunications Committee Chairwoman Sandy Greyson described the proposal as "intriguing." Council member Lois Finkelman caled it "exciting."
But Ms. Finkelman cautioned against creating a local government corporation to explore streetcars, especially because the council is already considering such an entity to coordinate general downtown Dallas redevelopment efforts.
E-mail dlevinthal@dallasnews.com
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
I refuse to read it until tommarow morning.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
Send it down Main? I don't know how thats possible, theres already alot of traffic on there in the first place. And how would the cross the DART line? Other than that this is a great idea! Really could help downtown. I like to hear them talking of modern cars too...air conditioning..
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
I thought that Haretip or one of the other MATA mavens had noted that Main is so riddled with old utility structures that it would be incapable of supporting the weight of a streetcar. However, if that obstacle could be overcome, then I think the vehicle traffic would be no problem... 'cause we'd get rid of it!
Main Street is poorly suited for use as a route for cars. Turn Main into a dedicated pedestrian and transit corridor, all the way from Dealey Plaza to Pearl St. Wide sidewalks, and in the middle, a dedicated route for buses and trolley cars. Take the buses off of Elm and Commerce, and the car-based traffic can flow freely down those roads. Such a pedestrian-oriented area would finally give businesses a reason to re-open the shuttered ground-level retail along Main.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Thats a great idea! Oklahoma City is doing somthing similer, without streetcars of course.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
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