Well, better Houston than Las Vegas. Like Kuntsler said, "If Las Vegas is the city of the future, we might as well slit our throats tomorrow."Originally Posted by psukhu
An artist's rendering released by MGM Mirage shows the four thousand room megaresort called 'Project CityCenter,' that they intend to build on a 66-acre site between the Bellagio and the Monte Carlo on the Las Vegas Blvd. 'strip.' (AP Photo/MGM Mirage)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...0111101539&e=2
Dallas needs to get moving... Phx is already doubling the size of its convention center, adding a 900 - 1,200 room conv ctr hotel, installing light rail, and building a new asu campus for 15,000 students (which will lead to additional residences, retail, restaurants, etc). they could easily bypass dallas in attracting more conventions if we don't do something NOW...
You are absolutely right PHX... The leadership of Dallas needs to develop a real sense of urgency for conv. ctr. hotel and trinity project. If not, we are quickly going to become a 'has been'. I wouldn't even mind seeing a casino on the river front to help attract conv goers.
Gambling is probably too much like the sinful gentleman's clubs to get a foothold in Dallas.
We've been through this! It's not about the casinos, at least not most of the time.
Let the comparison be made a few more times. Lose a few more conventions to Houston. Once this classic "dueling banjos" challenge has been made multiple times, Dallas will have to respond, simply as a matter of honor. In that line of thinking, Dallas will need at least 1,201 rooms to defeat it's evil foe to the south (joking). These articles say a hotel isn't needed for three years. Well, it isn't as if it will open tomorrow. At least it's become a source of irritation and embarrassment now. That's a great motivator. Go Big D...
It amuses me to no end the amount of elbow grease this rivalry adds to the list of compelling reasons to get something done. It works, though.
Also, the Dallas Conv. Hotel needs to have the curb appeal which really makes an impact on the skyline. The appearance of the hotel, the emotional impact of the hotel when framed by the current skyline, and the extent to which it stands out will be very important on promotional pamphlets and brochures in the marketing of the convention center's newest amenity. The location of the hotel on the SE side of the CBD will give the architects an opportunity to really punch up that sight line of downtown.
from Frontburner:
PUBLIC SUBSIDY AND THE CONVENTION HOTEL
To set the record straight, the new Convention Hotel will only be subsidized to the extent that (a) it will be built on public land (the parking lot next to the Convention Center), and (b) the city will pay for whatever connection is needed to the Center. Otherwise, it's a straight business propostion. The developers involved tell me they like it that way. I can see why. With the only bar within blocks, liquor sales alone ought to get them their money back and then some.
JSoto has your firm moved forward with this project or do you have any idea how far along it is to becoming reality?
^ Found another small blurb in todays DMN about the Dallas city staff moving forward to recommend to the DCC to open exclusive negotiationswith Woodbine Development Cop. for the creation Convention Center Hotel. Should hear some more soon.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
why is this taking so long?
I agree....they should not be talking about this right now....they should be breaking ground right now! This city is great, but they move so damned slow on everything.why is this taking so long?
same can be said about many things.
Its the holiday season for one. We will here more after the first of the year. Another reason is that there is probably a lot of negotiations taking place right now are proposals being made by the different hotel chains interested.
I meant taking so long overall. Other cities were in this process years ago, and have completed or are already constructing their's.
^ sorry. This is a prime example of miss management of the convention center and it not being run like a business. Instead of someone keeping up with what trends are developing in other cities, it took someone taking their business elsewhere to light the fire under someone's butt. If the private sector, especially in the design world, where to be run like this we would have firms shutting their doors left and right. This is the Dallas City Council again we are talking about. Wish we could get rid of all of them with the exception of those like Miller, Lil, Ranasky, and a couple others who actually like to work together and are open minded to other ideas. A key aspect to staying competitive, instead of being afraid of change.
There was a small note in the DMN today that the city council selected Woodbine to develop a hotel under the Marriott name...
I saw this in Quick this morning, but couldn't find the article anywhere else on DallasNews.com or on Quick's website. In lieu of a link or an attached article, I'm just going to handwrite the damn thing myself. (Jeez...when did I get so lazy that writing actually wears me out?)
TALKS OVER DOWNTOWN HOTEL BEGIN:
Construction of a Marriott hotel that's expected to tower over the Dallas Convention Center is one decision closer to its groundbreaking. The Dallas City Council yesterday approved initiating exclusive hotel negotiations with developer Woodbine Development Corp.
“It’s been a long time coming,” council member Lois Finkelman said. “These discussions went back probably long before any of us were on the council.”
City officials want the hotel to have 1,000 rooms and be built on Griffin Street between the Dallas Convention Center and Young Street, next to the A. Maceo Smith Federal Building.
********
Maybe for giggles, somebody (with more design skills than me) could mock up their own design proposals. I'm interested to see how this thing affects the skyline, especially in an area that has been stuck in the 70s and 80s for so long. I just hope it's not a glass box.
Anybody have any idea how tall a 1,000 room hotel would be? 25, 30, 40 stories? I guess it depends on the available land.
^jorge might know a little about that
A proposal I saw from Hyatt about 6 months ago was only 23 stories. But that was to be built on the plot of land due west of the current plot. Since the previous plot was larger, it may force the current plan more vertical...we can only hope! A 40 story hotel there would do wonders for that part of DT.
Theirs a video somwhere with the renderings. Probably have to back track on the forum a bit. This is great news though, yay for downtown.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
Once this is set, the council will have to make efforts to impove Griffin and encourage pedestrians between the hotel and what will then be a thriving retail/restaurant/club scene on Main and Commerce. No one wants to hoof across acres of hot blacktop in July to get to some shopping.
^ i agree. the hotel should spark some interest from developers, retail, restaurants though.
I don't think the hotel in downtown Houston changed the city center drastically. I have been to Houston before and after the construction of the hotel, and it is a beauty, but development is still slow in that area. New projects that have went up I think are 5 Houston Center, expansion of George R Brown, Toyota Center, Minute Maid Park, and there will be a 13 acre park in front of the new hotel. Most of these developments have nothing to do with the presence of the hotel. What I am trying to say is, Dallas needs more than this hotel to spark development in the area.
^that's not the purpose of a convention hotel. What your hotel did was take convention business away from Dallas according to your own Convention Bureau. As for development around it, the correct plan would be in place to make the area what Dallas wants. The street development would be more of a compliment rather than hoping the hotel catalyzes downtown. Dallas is just hoping to lure back conventions that have bawked about needing a convention center hotel and attract more. But that won't be until lots of arguing and infighting.
Last edited by rantanamo; 16 December 2004 at 07:02 PM.
What? I live in Dallas.
my bad. Sorry about the confusion.
Houston's Convention Center Hotel:
-Connected directly to the convention center via a sky bridge.
-Adject block to NBA arena.
-Several blocks from light rail.
-Tall enough to improve the skyline.
How Far away is the Hyatt maybe it just looks close. I think it could make the convention center more of a selling point with close space right besides it. Would this hotel have more conference room space or would it be strictly room space. Plus if it is tall enough would look great in developing that area, not that, that is all i am concerned with.
The Hyatt is pretty much right there, but getting from the Convention Center to the Hyatt is fairly complicated. Whether you walk or take the rail, you either have to go far out of your way on uncomfortable, barren streets that surround Reunion, or take the tunnel, which I've never really liked. Or you can run across the tracks and go crashing through the trees and foliage that seperate Union Station from Reunion.
Well, making a new skywalk to bypass those streets is sure going to make them more comfortable. why are they uncomfortable? no people. problem remains. bad decision.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
I forget the tracks run and sort of wall of the Hyatt why is that? A skywalk would be nice what about Linking reunion to the Convention center and the new hotel maybe try turning some of that parking lot into a nice parklike setting?.. extending a bike/run trail through that side of downtown and stuff.. I haven't really looked at map for the area, but more green constructively put couldn't hurt.
Its not all that bad desicion. People will still walk the streets and not all convetioneers will be going to the Hyatt. They will be staying in Hotels all around the downtown and with more conventions due to the new Convention Center Hotel, more people, blah blah blah, you get the idea.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
anyone see the article in the usa today about convention business? it briefly mentioned dallas (horrible attendee numbers) and other cities losing business over the years, while at the same time adding extra meeting space and some even building hotels... the author of the article wrote about all of these additions as too much, too late. very interesting: www.usatoday.com actually, i added to articels below:
Convention centers grow, fewer go
By Larry Copeland, USA TODAY
Cities are spending billions of dollars to build or expand convention centers when attendance at trade shows has dropped sharply, a report Monday by a Washington think tank shows. "If you look at cities around the country, we're talking about a downturn of 30 and 40 and 50% in convention business," says Heywood Sanders, a professor of public administration at the University of Texas at San Antonio who authored the report for the Brookings Institution.
"Convention centers are giving their space away or offering it at huge discounts," he says.
Fifty-three cities have built or expanded convention centers since 2000. Work or plans on such projects are underway in an additional 44 cities.
Cities covet conventioneers for the dollars they pump into the local economy, including hotels, restaurants and tourist attractions — an average of $1,500 per person per gathering, industry estimates say.
When the facilities fail to attract projected revenue, cities often expand them, then build pricey hotels — often at taxpayer expense, the report says.
Among other findings:
• Public spending for convention centers has doubled from $1.2 billion in 1993 to an average of $2.4 billion a year from 2001 to 2003.
• Industry consolidation is driving the attendance decline. So are improvements in telecommunication and the rise in Internet use. Both give business a way to network and sell merchandise without sending employees on expense accounts to conventions.
• Four cities that traditionally were major players in conventions — Chicago, New York, Atlanta and New Orleans — have slipped in trade show attendance in recent years, partly because of competition from Orlando and Las Vegas.
The report is unlikely to deter city leaders such as Russell Allen, city manager of Raleigh, N.C., where a convention center will open in early 2008. The $212 million facility will triple exhibit space to 150,000 square feet, include a 400-room hotel and enable Raleigh to compete with cities such as Charlotte and Greensboro, N.C., and Columbia, S.C., Allen says.
Adam Schaffer, publisher of TradeshowWeek, which covers the exhibition industry, predicts a rebound in attendance. "The industry is recovering from arguably the perfect storm," he says: A recession, the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the Iraq war and the Asian epidemic of severe acute respiratory syndrome occurred within 20 months.
Sanders acknowledges an upturn in convention business is likely. But he says, "You've got a ton of cities that are adding convention space today. It's going to get tough for almost everybody. And there will be some very clear losers."
Room to spare at convention hall
By Larry Copeland, USA TODAY
ATLANTA — The new wing of the Georgia World Congress Center is full of boats. Watercraft of every size and shape cover 420,000 square feet of the carpeted exhibit hall, from canoes to fishing boats, racers and yachts.
The new wing opened in June 2002, and Andy Johnson really likes it. Johnson is the owner of 72 Marine Sales, a bass boat company in Elberton, Ga., and he's been exhibiting at the Atlanta Boat Show for 10 years. "I like this building better," he says. "The access is better. It's easier to get in and out, to take boats off trailers."
The World Congress Center, long among the nation's top handful of convention centers, is best known for hosting mega-conventions that draw 10,000, 15,000 or 20,000 people to Atlanta. But the GWCC, as it's known, has fallen on hard times. "If four little old ladies wanted to rent a room to play poker next month, we'd rent them a room," says Dan Graveline, executive director of the state authority that runs the congress center.
A report Monday from the Brookings Institution indicates that the facility's story is one of unmet high expectations, lofty projections that never materialized and bad timing. It's a story repeated in cities around the country as they pursue "an arms race" for such projects, the report says.
The Georgia World Congress Center opened in 1976 as a 750,000-square-foot facility. It quickly catapulted Atlanta to the top echelon of convention cities. "Hotlanta" might have lacked a winning professional sports team or a nationally recognized tourist attraction, but it could sure turn its Southern hospitality and genteel manners into greenbacks by being the perfect host. (Related city guide: Atlanta)
The GWCC was a big part of that.
The downtown center has lured 50 million visitors and generated more than $1 billion in tax revenue. Unlike most other convention centers, it has made a profit for 25 years. In 1991, it hosted 18 of the nation's 200 largest trade shows. The next year, it expanded to 950,000 square feet — the equivalent of 20 football fields. In 1997, during an economic boom, it drew 837,752 conventioneers. Atlanta was rolling.
So convention center officials commissioned another expansion — based in large part on a consultant's study that projected 1.45 million conventioneers a year by 2006. "We had an economic impact study, but we already knew the darned answers," Graveline says. "What the study and we and everybody else weren't smart enough to know was that there was a recession coming right around the corner."
By 1999, the number of visitors to the congress center had dropped to 723,284. The national recession and the Sept. 11 attacks helped further depress the number to 569,887 by 2002. That was the year the new wing opened, bringing the total amount of exhibit space to 1.4 million square feet — the size of 29 football fields. The number of visitors dropped to 512,194 in 2003, and an early estimate for 2004 is 396,517 — fewer than half as many visitors as in 1997.
Georgia now has a whole lot more convention space — and a whole lot fewer people using it.
Most convention centers operate in the red. They're designed to stimulate economic development rather than be profit centers. Even so, Graveline says, the GWCC had profits of $3 million to $5 million a year during the fat years of the 1990s. Last year, it made $220,000 — barely breaking even.
Graveline says he expects attendance at the GWCC to rebound by 2008 or 2009. That would be in line with projections by the Travel Industry Association of America. Its annual estimate of business and convention travel declined from 164.3 million individual trips in 1999 to 138.2 million in 2003. But estimates for last year show 143.7 million such trips — the first increase since 1999, association spokeswoman Cathy Keefe says. The association projects 148.9 million this year. "It'll probably be 2008 before we exceed the previous high of 165.5 in 1998," Keefe says.
Heywood Sanders, a professor at the University of Texas-San Antonio who wrote the Brookings report, is skeptical about whether Atlanta will return to its previous levels of convention glory.
"The 'imminent turnaround' view of convention and trade show activity is no doubt heartening to those in the industry and to local officials," his report says. "It is, unfortunately, wrong."
Sanders says the nation's convention industry has been fundamentally changed by a glut of convention centers, consolidation among the companies that support trade shows and advances in communications technology. For example, the amount of space leased by the Super Show, held annually by the Sporting Goods Manufacturers Association, dropped from 1.39 million square feet in 1999 to 797,390 in 2003 — a 43% decline.
Mike May, a spokesman for the association, attributes much of the decline to consolidation in the industry.
"When you have two big companies merge, you don't need every single person who was working for both companies," he says. "You had two guys who were CEOs. Now you have one. That goes right down the line. You don't have as many buyers, or vice presidents of marketing, or people in sales, public relations or research and development."
Graveline acknowledges that his sales staff now has to work harder to lure trade shows. He says cities such as Orlando, with its Disney attractions, and Las Vegas, the gambling mecca, have built-in lures that help them weather hard times.
But he disputes the notion that the Internet and video-conferencing will replace trade shows: "I think that's hogwash. People always say that. But people are still going to want to conduct business face-to-face."
Last edited by dallastophoenix; 17 January 2005 at 10:01 PM.
New Convention Center Hotel listed as 'Marriott Hotel' with 1000 Rooms @ DFW Maps.. Griffin & Young Streets. That's a BIG hotel.
Map.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
I think someone's a block off with that map. According to that, they're going to build it on top of a cemetery. I think it's the parking lot across the street to the west.
I believe that you're right. I had hoped that the hotel would be @ the sw corner of young and lamar, but i suppose they can squeeze a really tall one into the parking lot south of the building at the sw corner of young and griffin.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
That address has to be wrong. The parking lot just south of the L-shaped building appears to belong to that building, and the rest of the lot is too small. Way too small. Also, they're going to want a parking garage. I really do think the address we have here must be wrong, somehow. The huge lot at Young and Lamar has to be it.
They don't always hit the mark on the map.
So, is Dallas just late in the game here?
there was a graphic w/ the usatoday article that showed dallas' convention visitors: not so good (1997: ~580,000 attendees; 2003: ~270,000 attendees)...
^Ouch!
There are so many convention centers around, yet it hasn't been asked as to whether its even viable to try and make conventions a major business. Money might be better spent retaining and trying to grow current conventions. No existing convention center can really add a ton of conventions because places like Gaylord or the Irving Convention Center or even Frisco's are taking away many of these.
What are the sizes for the future Irving and Frisco convention centers? The Dallas Convention Center dominates DFW in total size.
page 181 of the 2005 Book of Lists (Dallas Business Journal)
1. Dallas Convention Center - 1,019,142 sq ft
2. Music Hall at Fair Park - 400,000 sq ft
3. Gaylord - 400,000 sq ft
4. Fort Worth Convention Center - 253,226 sq ft
5. Six Flags - 250,000 sq ft
6. Adam's Mark - 240,000 sq ft
7. Market Hall - 202,000 sq ft
8. Anatole - 128,600 sq ft
9. Will Rodgers (FTW) - 96,000 sq ft
10. Arlington Con.v Cent. - 78,600 sq ft
11. Fairmont - 77,000 sq ft
12. Stockyards (FTW) - 58,200
13. Reunion Hyatt - 55,000 sq ft
14. AAC - 50,000 sq ft
14. Intercontinental (Addison) - 50,000 sq ft
16. Radisson (Main St FTW) - 41,519 sq ft
17. Harvey Hotel (Irving - on John 114) - 40,000 sq ft
18. Eddie Dean's Ranch - 36,000 sq ft
19. The Westin Park Central - 35,187 sq ft
20. Hilton Lincoln Center - 35,000 sq ft
20. Rodeo Center (Mesquite) - 35,000 sq ft
20. Wentin Galleria - 35,000 sq ft
23. Plano Center - 34,696 sq ft
24. Galleria Crown Plaza (Addison) - 30,000 sq ft
24. Reunion Arena - 30,000 sq ft
Buildings expanded, but not attendance
Jan. 18, 2005, 10:49PM
Industry
By L.M. SIXEL
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle
Houston celebrated with fireworks when it kicked off the expansion of the George R. Brown Convention Center and construction of the attached 1,200-room Hilton Americas-Houston hotel four years ago. The 700,000-square-foot addition, which nearly doubled the center's exhibit space, would finally make Houston a player in the lucrative convention industry. That, in turn, would create jobs and generate other economic benefits, city leaders promised at the groundbreaking.
But was the city's investment in the center really worth it — considering the increased competition from other cities that have made similar investments? Was it a wise move — considering, too, that conventions in general have waned in popularity? Not if the findings of a recently released study by the Brookings Institution are any indication. Between 1999 and 2003, attendance at the George R. Brown Convention Center fell 69 percent, according to the study, Space Available: The Realities of Convention Centers as Economic Development Strategy.
^That's all I'm saying. Maybe staying par for the course is the best goal for non-tourist cities. Maybe combining this stuff with a Cowboys stadium was the right thing to do(Jerry was talking hotel already). Taxes will be raised anyway. I'm not saying with the terms Jerry was trying to milk for Dallas County residents, but maybe at the Arlington rate.
I'm just asking the question.
First we've got super-dooper sports arenas, then we've got super-dooper hotels for convention centers, here are two examples of huge, expensive projects which across the country have been made possible through direct municipal financial contributions. Each time a city or county has given $100-300 million dollars to a private organization or corporation to build and manage one of these facilities, the unbinding promise from the private organization/corporation has been that the increase in municipal revenue resulting from the "investment" will exceed the debt. Time after time, this scenerio never works out except for the private organization/corporation.
I applaud Dallas city and county for recently holding steady to be more cautious and thorough before blindly jumping onto the public-private agreements giving money to wealthy operations.
If the city had been the first to build a 1000 room hotel on the convention center location, the public investment would have paid off, but to jump on the bandwaggon of building the structure and handing it over to a hotelier is ignorant. Dallas may have gotten it right this time, and MIGHT be on the leading edge of public policy to scrutinize the public-private agreements ensuring direct, realtime payback is guaranteed on any public investment which underwrites the profits of any private operation.
The Dallas Convention Center Hotel will be built, but the city will contribute (+/-) 10% of the initial investment conceived through the manufactured public misperception that $200,000,000 is manditory to make it happen.
Dont let it happen here. AAC should be the last parasite.
BTW, here's an article w/Hunt-Woodbine re: CC Hotel. Wasn't sure if it was posted somewhere.
http://www.remnewsletters.com/issues...est.phtml#2707
Volume 03 - Number 03 | January 18, 2005
DALLAS-With a pair of high-profile projects on its Texas dance card, Hunt Realty Corp. has closed a $110-million refinance collateralized by the 1,122-room Hyatt Regency Dallas and 50-story Reunion Tower, a Downtown symbol with 30 extra acres that could be filled by a 1,000-room convention center headquarters hotel.
Neither borrower nor lender, Archon Financial of Dallas, will discuss the refinance, which could simply be a repackaging of the financing or could include some extra capital to help with planning costs for a headquarters hotel. The transaction has closed about three weeks after city officials agreed to kick off negotiations with the asset's general partner, Woodbine Development Corp., about a headquarters hotel in the pursuit to regain a competitive edge on the convention circuit. Negotiations are slated to run through April 16 at no cost to the city.
Hunt-Woodbine Realty Corp., the 50-acre complex's managing general partner, secured a non-recourse first mortgage lien. Paul Jankovsky, senior vice president and regional manager for Archon Financial, originated the loan for the 30-story hotel at 300 Reunion Blvd., which cost $71 million when it opened in 1978. The JV owners put $84.3 million into an expansion, renovation and upgrades between 2000 and 2003.
"The property is a good hotel," Greg Crown, vice president in Dallas for the New York City-based PKF Consulting, tells GlobeSt.com. "It's performed well above the average for the Downtown." The Hyatt Regency's rooms start at $149 per night. The landmark hotel, with a revolving restaurant atop the adjacent tower, has 180,000 sf of function space, six restaurants and a 500-space parking garage.
In a press release about the refinance, Jankovsky says the Hyatt Regency Dallas "plays an important role in the dynamics of both Downtown and convention center commerce." Woodbine, teaming with Marriott International Inc. of Washington, DC, is pushing a preliminary 1,000-room hotel proposal with a direct connection to the tower and Hyatt Regency.
Crown believes Dallas officials think a privately funded headquarters hotel will come cost-free to the city. The public cost, he says, will be "at least $100 million." The project's full cost is likely to be $250 million. Houston's 1,200-room headquarters hotel cost almost that much and Denver's 1,100-room facility is topping $300 million, according to Crown.
As Woodbine negotiates the new Dallas deal, it's well under way on a $135-million development, Hyatt Regency Lost Pines Resort and Spa, in Bastrop County near Austin. The 491-room resort is set to open in 2006.
My understanding is that the city has agreed to exclusive negotiations with Woodbine Development for construction of a privately financed hotel (Marriott, I think) on Lamar Street right in front of the Convention Center. (that may have been stated earlier, but I did not see it)
I would like to see the hotel built to at least keep the Convention Center competitive.
But, at the same time, it does seem like the convention industry is getting more competitive with every city in the country building "newer and greater" convention facilities, while Orlando and Las Vegas strengthen their position as hosts. Where is this battle really going and can anyone really win?
Last edited by INTX dave; 24 January 2005 at 05:04 AM.
^Those are questions that I think definitely should be asked and answered before we move forward. I would also like to know:
- What cities can Dallas realistically siphon market share from?
- How much of that market share (percentage-wise) can Dallas expect to actually secure?
- Can Dallas ever compete with cities like Orlando, Las Vegas, New Orleans, New York, San Francisco (factor in our hotel/rental car tax for the "Victory Development")?
- Is the convention industry in a permanent downturn?
- Will national convention attendance numbers ever reach what they were in the late 90’s?
- Will the benefits of adding a convention center hotel outweigh the costs to existing hotels downtown (factor in hotel/rental car tax)?
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
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