DTD: Convention Center Hotel

[TexasStar]

... where they can fly to Lubbock, Amarillo, and Midland.

I was with you until right about here.

[Spjz]

http://dallascityhall.com/committee_...tionCenter.pdf

Ok, that was one of the most boring powerpoints i've ever clicked through. I think they are trying to bore the naysayers to death so they will not try and sabotage plans for the hotel.

Why can't the city just give tax incentives to a private developer to build it so tax payers won't be saddled with a liability if this thing is a flop?

[berryhill]

I was with you until right about here.

Think West Texas oil. But that's not the point. Point was that accessibility to our airports and within Dallas will open up tons of options for travelers. Soon people will be able to do what travelers can't do at LaGuardia: take the train directly to the central business district.

[TexasStar]

Why can't the city just give tax incentives to a private developer to build it so tax payers won't be saddled with a liability if this thing is a flop?

The taxpayers have already sunk untold millions into the sprawling convention center. A facility seen as "unfinished" by convention planners until there is an attached convention hotel. By adding this new structure we're merely completing the job that's already been started and getting the maxiumum benefit from investments already made.

Personally, I don't care how they get the thing built. As long as they get just get the thing built. I'd be willing to join "Friends of the Convention Center Hotel" and make annual contributions if that will help get the ball rolling.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Why can't the city just give tax incentives to a private developer to build it so tax payers won't be saddled with a liability if this thing is a flop?

Because it's such a financial blackhole that just waiving the property taxes isn't enough to justify it?

[Hannibal Lecter]

The taxpayers have already sunk untold millions into the sprawling convention center. A facility seen as "unfinished" by convention planners until there is an attached convention hotel. By adding this new structure we're merely completing the job that's already been started and getting the maxiumum benefit from investments already made.

There's a term for that: Throwing good money after bad.

What has already been spent is called a sunk cost. It's already gone, and should never be figured in when planning future expenditures. Unfortunately, governmental bodies are very bad about forgetting this basic rule, the U.S. Department of Defense being a prime violator.

[DSM]

There's a term for that: Throwing good money after bad.

What has already been spent is called a sunk cost. It's already gone, and should never be figured in when planning future expenditures. Unfortunately, governmental bodies are very bad about forgetting this basic rule, the U.S. Department of Defense being a prime violator.

But also we have to factor in the up-keep of the facility. A certain level of up-keep must be maintained even if the CC hold no events. This can be costly as seen in many of the venues that currently bite Dallas in the butt.

[incrediculous]

There's a term for that: Throwing good money after bad.

What has already been spent is called a sunk cost. It's already gone, and should never be figured in when planning future expenditures.

Great point. The sunk cost is on the books, so you should look at your future investments in the project marginally. But just because a sunk cost is sunk doesn't mean an additional investment on top of it won't be profitable by itself.

Imagine it's 1998. You just blew $500 buying a fancy lemonade stand and got a lease to set-up in a popular local park. Unfortunately, the market for lemonade just tanked because everyone is into those gimmicky Lemon Chills. You do a little market research, and think you can sell a lot of Lemon Chills, at a greater margin than you ever imagined realizing from regular ol' frozen lemonade.

So do you just call the whole damn thing off, because as you said, it's a sunk cost? Or do you poney-up for a $300 Lemon Chill franchise and a freezer? If you think marginally, and actually realize that a sunk cost is called a sunk cost for a reason, you would look at the lemonade stand and lease as a sunk cost, and make your profit analysis on the additional $300.

It sounds to me like Dallas is buying that Lemon Chill franchise. But of course, I don't have their numbers. It may be profitable, it may not be. Either way, I don't think the government should be in the convention space business in the first place. Or the arena business. Or the stadium business.

[Mballar]

I understand that a convention center hotel is "needed" in order to compete with other cities. However, I've also heard that conventions, in general, are on the wane. This makes sense with the advent of video conferencing, internet, and other advances in technology that are making conventions. . .well, less appealing. Add to that the increased cost in travel, etc, and I can understand why some companies are reevaluating their desire to continue having conventions. In an effort to be responsible, and think ahead 10, 15, or even 20 years from now. Have we asked ourselves the following question: "If the convention market shrinks by, lets say, a third over the next 10 years, what will we do with a convention center/hotel that will probably be hard to fill, anyway?" I just want us to make this decision in the most prudent fashion possible. Does anyone have any data on the popularity/trends in the convention market?

[psukhu]

What about the Javitz Center in Manhattan? It is in a relatively blighted part of Manhattan and there are no attached hotels or subway stations. I've never walked there because it was too far from the nearest subway station and the area is seedy. I've been there at least 10 times and I always take a taxi.

http://www.javitscenter.com/

[mjblazin]

These arguments on sunk cost would sound better if a private operator stepped up to reap the benefit of the sunk cost investment. The most damning factor about this project is that not a single hotel operator is ready to grab that low hanging fruit theoretically made possible by the convention center investment. I've yet to hear a reason for that situation.

It's the continuing costs borne by the city in a money losing operation, not the substantial funds already expended, that drive many residents's doubts about the proposal.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I understand that a convention center hotel is "needed" in order to compete with other cities. However, I've also heard that conventions, in general, are on the wane. This makes sense with the advent of video conferencing, internet, and other advances in technology that are making conventions. . .well, less appealing. Add to that the increased cost in travel, etc, and I can understand why some companies are reevaluating their desire to continue having conventions. In an effort to be responsible, and think ahead 10, 15, or even 20 years from now. Have we asked ourselves the following question: "If the convention market shrinks by, lets say, a third over the next 10 years, what will we do with a convention center/hotel that will probably be hard to fill, anyway?" I just want us to make this decision in the most prudent fashion possible. Does anyone have any data on the popularity/trends in the convention market?

While I'm personally going to more conventions than ever (thanks to clients willing to pick up the tab), I thought it was significant that the once very popular Dallas SkiFest was noticeably less crowded in 2005, and was canceled in 2006. Basically, it was replaced by the Internet.

[Mballar]

Baltimore's Problem:
http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2...nventions.html
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...feb10,0,.story
Future Baltimore Convention Bookings Decline: Drop in Bookings
Comes as City Financed $301 million Hotel with
757 Rooms Nears Opening
By Sumathi Reddy, The Baltimore SunMcClatchy-Tribune Business News

Feb. 10, 2007 - Despite a publicly financed Hilton convention hotel set to open next year, Baltimore's major convention business appears to be declining, prompting concern among officials for the city's investment.

Numbers released yesterday show that the Baltimore Area Convention and Visitors Association has booked for 2008 a little more than a third the number of groups that it did in 2005, grim figures for a business in which groups usually book five to 10 years in advance.

Similarly, the number of hotel room nights booked for Convention Center conferences from 2005 to 2008 decreased by more than 70 percent, from 254,126 to 72,231. The hotel is slated to open in August of 2008.

The figures, which BACVA officials presented to area general managers yesterday, show that 28 groups booked conventions at the center in 2005, compared with 10 for 2008, and nine each for 2009 and 2010. Seven more groups, translating to 38,195 hotel nights, have committed to come to Baltimore in 2008 but have not signed contracts. Five more groups, with 44,766 hotel nights, are possibilities, officials said.

BACVA Executive Director Thomas J. Noonan acknowledged that the convention center faces a "situation," which he hopes to turn around as the newly appointed leader of a quasi-governmental tourism agency that has experienced several turbulent turns in recent years. __________________________________________________

Another thing to consider:

http://in.tech.yahoo.com//137/26hzt.html
U.S. convention-goers turning to Web for bookings

By Peter Henderson

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Kevin Mitchell ignores the special hotel deals on offer when he attends conventions. The reason? The Web works better.

In a worrying trend for hotel companies, Mitchell and other convention-goers are turning up their noses at room rates negotiated on their behalf by event planners and turning to the Internet instead to book cheaper rooms.

The result is a boon for frugal travelers but an important loss of revenue for hotels facing their third year of room revenue decline, especially upscale ones which depend on conventions for over 10 percent of their business, analysts said.
___

[cowboyeagle05]

I understand that a convention center hotel is "needed" in order to compete with other cities. However, I've also heard that conventions, in general, are on the wane. This makes sense with the advent of video conferencing, internet, and other advances in technology that are making conventions. . .well, less appealing. Add to that the increased cost in travel, etc, and I can understand why some companies are reevaluating their desire to continue having conventions. In an effort to be responsible, and think ahead 10, 15, or even 20 years from now. Have we asked ourselves the following question: "If the convention market shrinks by, lets say, a third over the next 10 years, what will we do with a convention center/hotel that will probably be hard to fill, anyway?" I just want us to make this decision in the most prudent fashion possible. Does anyone have any data on the popularity/trends in the convention market?

I can speak as one who develops the internet daily as far as the internet industry we are having sort of less conventions in fact there has been the creation of the non-Conference. The BarCamp, PodCamp, WordCamp, all are held in one weekend at a small location like Frisco City Hall where the first Dallas WordCamp will be held in March 2008. Camps such as these are free with sponsors and speakers about all kinds of topics. Of course Festivals are still in vogue but those don't always require a convention center and attached hotel. But some like Austins SXSW do for their interactive part of the Festival.

[Mballar]

Baltimore's Problem:
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business...feb10,0,.story

In an effort to be fair to Baltimore, I thought I'd post th6e following5 article which seems to address the problem raised in the February article (above).

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4183/is_/ai_n
Baltimore's tourism bureau seeks 400,000 hotel room bookings in '08
Daily Record, The (Baltimore), Sep 14, 2007 by Louis Llovio

Baltimore's tourism bureau has set a goal of booking 400,000 room nights for the city -- 5 percent more than last year-- in fiscal year 2008.

The target was announced by Thomas J. Noonan, president and CEO of the Baltimore Area Convention and Visitors Association (BACVA), at the group's annual meeting Thursday evening. Almost 500 people attended the meeting and a private reception afterward at the Baltimore Convention Center.

The association, which announced that it had booked more than 380,000 room nights in FY 2007, is counting on an additional 2,000 hotel rooms opening up over the next few years to help boost the sales numbers.

[dfwcre8tive]

I'm all for this development if it brings additional restaurants/entertainment to the huge parking lots dividing the convention center from the rest of downtown. Today I went to a seminar at the convention center and for lunch we had to walk for blocks in the rain just to eat in the tunnels. There is definitely a need to connect the convention center with the rest of activity happening downtown.

[mjblazin]

I'm all for this development if it brings additional restaurants/entertainment to the huge parking lots dividing the convention center from the rest of downtown. Today I went to a seminar at the convention center and for lunch we had to walk for blocks in the rain just to eat in the tunnels. There is definitely a need to connect the convention center with the rest of activity happening downtown.

Did you know there's a LR station in the Center? West End is two stops away.

[dfwcre8tive]

Did you know there's a LR station in the Center? West End is two stops away.

Yes but walking in the rain is more fun and the friends I was with didn't want to buy a ticket. I also live about a 5 minute walk away. I'm just saying that those huge parking lots right in front of the convention center could be used in a much better way to attract convention-goers to venture toward the downtown core. The DART station helps, but right now the convention center is a bit isolated from the rest of downtown's activity. Hopefully that will change soon.

[mjblazin]

I'm not trying to bust chops. But I don't buy the idea that the CC is that cut off from the rest of the city and am not a fan of the city built hotel. It may just be me, but I'd be more interested in a arrangement that offered easy transit from airport to convention center with a variety of downtown hotels/restaurants accessible by rail vs. a hotel connected to the CC.

[xen0blue]

I've got a better, and potential cheaper idea: why not have the city use it's imminent domain powers and take those two parking lots southeast of city hall, across from the convention center, entice a developer and give them some tax abatements to develop a hotel there, connect the hotel to the CC with a tunnel, and then make a tunnel going from the closest area of the already existing tunnel system to the convention center/hotel tunnel. those lots behind city hall are prime real estate and being used as PARKING LOTS!

[sterling]

I'm not trying to bust chops. But I don't buy the idea that the CC is that cut off from the rest of the city and am not a fan of the city built hotel. It may just be me, but I'd be more interested in a arrangement that offered easy transit from airport to convention center with a variety of downtown hotels/restaurants accessible by rail vs. a hotel connected to the CC.

You don't "buy" the idea that the cc is isolated? And you want to attract meetings by giving conventioneers bus vouchers and maps to make their own way around? Is this from the Helen Keller school of triumph over limitation, or just your leftover haze from too much mjblazin? Have you ever actually WALKED the area? About the only feeling the area imparts to visitors is fear of abandonment. Good luck with your "too little too late" approach and with keeping your head firmly entrenched in the sand.

[cowboyeagle05]

You don't "buy" the idea that the cc is isolated? And you want to attract meetings by giving conventioneers bus vouchers and maps to make their own way around? Is this from the Helen Keller school of triumph over limitation, or just your leftover haze from too much mjblazin? Have you ever actually WALKED the area? About the only feeling the area imparts to visitors is fear of abandonment. Good luck with your "too little too late" approach and with keeping your head firmly entrenched in the sand.

I agree

It doesn't take much for a pedestrian to give up the walk. Just about 50 feet of empty storefronts and or parking lots will keep pedestrians from walking anywhere past the front stoop of the convention center especially when they don't know this town. They need some level of continuous storefronts or active friendly street life to get people anywhere. While the West End is easily accessible the Conventions will not accept a Dart ride for connecting Hotels. Cause the Adams Mark the Largest Hotel in Texas(not including Gaylord) has a Dart Station and gets alot of business probably because of it but some how the Conventions are not satisfied with this solution. What I do not know is if they use some of that money they would spend on a Hotel to make Dart rides free for Conventioneers well that would be kinda like a temporary tax law in Federal government they not gonna be able to cancel it. I would rather build a Hotel that "could" sustain itself when business returns than a series of buses that would become a life blood drain on the city too. Course we could be wrong on every point of our discussions.

[dfwcre8tive]

[cowboyeagle05]

^Thanks for reposting this I have the first rendering in my pictures folder and have kinda wished they could accomplish this sooner than later if it ever does.

[tamtagon]

Ya, that place wont be complete without a bigass hotel.

[hamiltonpl]

My friends in Houston tell me that their Convention Center Hotel is only 50% occupied nowadays.

But I agree, Dallas needs contiguous storefronts and street life for the "conventioneers" to become happy pedestrians.

[mjblazin]

You don't "buy" the idea that the cc is isolated? And you want to attract meetings by giving conventioneers bus vouchers and maps to make their own way around? Is this from the Helen Keller school of triumph over limitation, or just your leftover haze from too much mjblazin? Have you ever actually WALKED the area? About the only feeling the area imparts to visitors is fear of abandonment. Good luck with your "too little too late" approach and with keeping your head firmly entrenched in the sand.

Get on the train and go anywhere you want. Why couldn't the seminar or convention include a day pass? Why do the stores have to be right outside the building? 5 minute train ride and a 5 minute walk take 5 minutes. Yes, I either walk, bike, or do rail through the convention center practically every day. We have ONE template on this forum and it seems to be the ONLY way to solve a problem.

[mrowl]

^ Nice trees.... LOL.

[sterling]

Get on the train and go anywhere you want. Why couldn't the seminar or convention include a day pass? Why do the stores have to be right outside the building? 5 minute train ride and a 5 minute walk take 5 minutes. Yes, I either walk, bike, or do rail through the convention center practically every day. We have ONE template on this forum and it seems to be the ONLY way to solve a problem.

And I venture that the other "template" is the "do nothing" school of thought. Classic Dallas "Don't fix it until it's totally broke down". Then just abandon it (like Reunion) and start from scratch a few blocks away. Bass Ackwards at best, but "tried and true" if you wait generations long enough.

Since you seem to have such optimism about an area you know well, please share your favorite locations within strolling of the convention center where you suggest that visitors relax, sit down, have drinks or dinner, and of course sleep. Or maybe just a little hole-in-the-wall where someone might sneak away from the convention for a few minutes without being missed... At this point I'd settle for the location of the nearest microwavable burrito. Suggestions?

DART is not a carnival ride whisking visitors around to magic destinations. No matter how novel it is to Dallasites, to conventioneers it represents just another "way finding" issue. And they will take their money elsewhere; notably some place like Gaylord, where they don't have to think at all.

[mdg109]

I agree with Sterling. If I had to go to a convention, first thing I'd want to do is explore the city, eat and see what stores are around. I can only imagine the disappointment of visitors coming here for the first time. Dallasites have their cars to take them from place to place. Without that, visitors have to walk past huge parking lots, and boring buildings. Something has to be done. But, hopefully, with new residents from the Mosaic, Mercantile, City Walk and 1600 Pacific, maybe that will encourage new developments to spring up all over downtown and eventually consume the surface parking lots and have actual pedestrian activity all the way up to the convention center. What can I say... I like to dream.

[Mephis Gooseberry]

Dallas Convention Center Master Plan

[Mephis Gooseberry]

Seeing that the Hotel will most likely take up the entire gigantic lot at Market, Young and Lamar, and the DCC plans to build a Multipurpose Theatre on the lot south of the Griffin Square building; where will walkable retail be built? North of Young?

The only parking lot land available is north of Young. The DCC Hotel will take out a sizeable chunk of the parking lot blight closest to the convention center and the immediate surrounding lots are mostly already built as Parks or Plazas effectively isolating the DCC.

Will the new hotel at Santa Fe IV build break out space in its parking lot or would that lot be available for retail?

How bout the Belo Parking Lot? Would they sell?

The rest of the vacant lots are north of Wood St and Jackson. That is getting to be a sizeable walk for most people but then the new DART line is most likely going to go down Wood or Jackson which would liven up the area, increase Retail viability and encourage walking.

I believe the city will need to accelerate the building of a trolley line to facilitate conventioner movement up and down Lamar and encourage Retail construction that addresses conventioner needs.

The development of the lots south of City Hall is a good idea but the DCC center of mass is further west and we want to push foot traffic north south between the DCC and Main St. An office tower or another self contained Hotel/Condo might be perfect for the east side but for now that side is not ripe for development. I am personally hoping for more housing and retail in that area, especially if a ballpark is built and the Canyon gets its own overhead park like Woodall.

West of the DCC Hotel site is the huge Dallas Morning News site and they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Everything south of the DCC to the freeway will be taken up by DCC expansions.

[msutton]

Why can't there be retail in the Hotel?

[Mballar]

FEI: Request for Qualifications went out today for a "Master Developer" for the convention center hotel.

[FoUTASportscaster]

There could be retail for the hotel, but the likely hood of the retail being sustaining is very low. Convention activity is sporadic and ranges from Mary Kay huge, to podunk small.

Hotel buisness, being disconnected from the rest of downtown, will rise and fall with the conventions, meaning no real consistent activity to speak. Any retail there would be crazy to be open past 6, meaning it will be another dead spot after dark.

But, since it is apparent that we are about to subsidize a hotel, perhaps part of that will be subsidization of retail.

The DCC Hotel will take out a sizeable chunk of the parking lot blight closest to the convention center and the immediate surrounding lots are mostly already built as Parks or Plazas effectively isolating the DCC.

What is this theater you speak of, in terms of its use?

[Kelley USA]

^ I think any retail that would be added would be to the benefit of DT residents as well...

[rantanamo]

I seriously think they need to think.................................Gaylord Texan like. Why let that place steal convention after convention. Obviously that place works. Just somehow integrate it with the surrounding streets.

[Mephis Gooseberry]

What is this theater you speak of, in terms of its use?

The masterplan shows "multipurpose". I would assume they have secure corporate digital meetings in mind similar to the theatres on the TI campus.

[FoUTASportscaster]

^ I think any retail that would be added would be to the benefit of DT residents as well...

I doubt it, there is virtually nothing in terms of residences close to that lot. The closest would be SoCo and Jackson Street lofts, and Main Street is about the same distnace and livelier. Unlike some in Uptown, most residents in downtown don't drive 3 or 4 blocks to do something. It is highly inconvenient, costs money and doesn't save any time. This place would be of little value to Kirby, Davis, DP&L, Interurban, Merc, Mosaic, Republic, 1505 Elm, West End Station, 1001 Ross, Third Rail, Gulf States, 1414 Elm, One Arts Plaza, Wilson, Continental, Atmos Complex, Metropolitan, 1900 Elm, and any other I don't know off the top of my head.

It also won't be close to the Adam's Mark, Adolphus, Magnolia, Joule, Springhill Suites, West End Hotel, Fairmont and Indigo. The only ones close will be the Hyatt and Sant Fe IV.

Unless it turns into a West Village type multi-use mix of residential, retail, office and hotel, this will not be a vibrant place outside of conventions.

The masterplan shows "multipurpose". I would assume they have secure corporate digital meetings in mind similar to the theatres on the TI campus.

Thanks, it seems it is as a figured, for the Convention Center only.

[texcolo2]

Convention Centers are not known for adding vibrant street life. They're big, they're bulky, they're inhuman in scale... but they bring in the $$$ like nobody's business.

The only convention center that I know of that doesn't destroy all street life for blocks on end is the one in San Fancisco... and that's only because most of it is underground.

[Kelley USA]

Sportscaster.... So you're telling me that if there was a nice mix of retail / restaurants incorporated here- that DT residents wouldn't walk to it? I highly disagree with you. I think DT residents are craving for any new place to walk, shop, eat etc... If done right it can be very attractive. Now if they fill it with crappy Texas gift stores then- NO.

[FoUTASportscaster]

That's exactly what I am saying. The preferred distance for pedestrians is a quarter mile. Anything over a half mile is out.

From 1900 Elm/Merc/Continental, it is .9 miles.

From Davis/Third Rail/Gulf States/1414 Elm/ Kirby it is .6 miles.

From Mosaic/1505 Elm it is .7 miles.

From Republic/1600 Pacific it is 1 mile.

From 1001 Ross/West End Station it is .5 mile.

So other than SoCo and Jackson St Lofts, there is not a resident building within comfortable walking distance.

And the same thing goes with hotels.

So again, no, most residents will have little use for this buildings retail offerings.

[Kelley USA]

That's just dumb- I couldn't disagree more.... I have friends that live DT that walk down to Victory or West End for shopping and dining all the time. I guess our DT residents are just lazier than those in NYC, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, San Francisco etc...- because those people can sure do some walking! And BTW- if you actually get out and walk a mile its not that far...

[tamtagon]

Flanking the Convention Center a mini-mall clutch of touristy shops, restaurants and bars targeting convention goers and tourists with a heavy dose of Texana may not be a prefered destination for North Texas locals seeking an urban experience, but it would be an occasional "fun" alternative when not swarmed by out-of-towners. A Convention and Tourist oriented location would be a goldmine for area-best TexMex, BBQ and Southern Fried restaurants. A lot of tourists are going to want easy access to Native Texan Approved enchilladas, brisket sandwiches and chicken fried steak; downtown residents might just appreciate the over-the-top friendly service approach, too.

The preferred distance for pedestrians is a quarter mile. Anything over a half mile is out.

Such a focused and concentraited tourist oriented development embedded into the side of the Convention Center will be an excellent spring board for resident focused retail development to fill the gap between Main-Elm-Commerce and the ConvCtr. The potential for residential development in the immediate area would be greatly enhance.

[vman]

That's just dumb- I couldn't disagree more.... I have friends that live DT that walk down to Victory or West End for shopping and dining all the time. I guess our DT residents are just lazier than those in NYC, Chicago, Boston, Seattle, San Francisco etc...- because those people can sure do some walking! And BTW- if you actually get out and walk a mile its not that far...

I agree..that's dumb. I live on the southern downtown edge, and although I have a car, I walk almost every day to my job in Fountain Place. I also walk just about everywhere else. I've seen other people walking DT from here (Camden) too. If it's worthwhile, I think dt residents will gladly walk to it.

[Mballar]

Yeah, as part of Comerica Bank's New Year's Eve Parade , Mayor TLep, along with Comerica Bank Chairman & CEO, Ralph Babb and his wife are walking the entire parade route from Comerica Bank Headquarters Downtown Dallas (at Ervay and Elm) to Main, Lamar and Houston Streets, to the American Airlines Center. That's about 1 and 1/2 miles. If those fine people can walk that distance, surely visitors can walk that far too.

[texcolo2]

I don't think it's the distance that will kill shops in this area, but the TIME to walk that distance. DTD residents are busy folks, and time is money.

[FoUTASportscaster]

That's just dumb- I couldn't disagree more...

I agree..that's dumb. I live on the southern downtown edge, and although I have a car, I walk almost every day to my job in Fountain Place. I also walk just about everywhere else. I've seen other people walking DT from here (Camden) too. If it's worthwhile, I think dt residents will gladly walk to it.

Yup, ya'll are right and know more than the folks at The Congress for New Urbanism, TOD developers and traditional urban design guidelines. All people will walk a long ways, despite better options and environments closer by.

I am regularly through Camden and rarely see people out and about. I see a person a lot, but not people. I see way more cars headingout of the garage than feet on the sidewalk. There reason is that there isn't much within a half-mile radius.

Such a focused and concentraited tourist oriented development embedded into the side of the Convention Center will be an excellent spring board for resident focused retail development to fill the gap between Main-Elm-Commerce and the ConvCtr. The potential for residential development in the immediate area would be greatly enhance.

You of all people should know that retail follows rooftops, and disappears if it is first.

[jdwillis]

Yup, ya'll are right and know more than the folks at The Congress for New Urbanism, TOD developers and traditional urban design guidelines. All people will walk a long ways, despite better options and environments closer by.

I am regularly through Camden and rarely see people out and about. I see a person a lot, but not people. I see way more cars headingout of the garage than feet on the sidewalk. There reason is that there isn't much within a half-mile radius.



You of all people should know that retail follows rooftops, and disappears if it is first.

From a paper put out by the Brookings Institution:

M e t r o p o l i t a n Po l i c y P r o g r a m
The Brookings Institution

Turning Around
Downtown: Twelve
Steps to Revitalization
Christopher B. Leinberger1

Since the rise of cities 8,000 years ago, humans have only wanted to walk about 1500 feet until they begin looking for an alternative means of transport: a horse, a trolley, a bicycle, or a car. This distance translates into about 160 acres—about the size of a super regional mall, including its parking lot. It is also about the size, plus or minus 25 percent, of Lower Manhattan, downtown Albuquerque, the Rittenhouse Square section of Philadelphia, the financial district of San Francisco, downtown Atlanta, and most other major downtowns in the country.

But the willingness to walk isn’t just about the distance. Certainly no one is inspired to stroll from one end of a super regional mall parking lot to the other. People will walk 1500 feet or more only if they have an interesting and safe streetscape and people to watch along the way—a mix of sights and sounds that can make a pedestrian forget that he is unintentionally getting enjoyable exercise. Depending on the time of day, the day of the week, or the season of the year, the experience of walking downtown will be entirely different, even if you are traveling along a well trod path. A new experience can be had, in fact, nearly every time you take to the streets.

Fostering such walkable urbanism is the key to the revival of any struggling downtown. But doing so can be a challenging process, requiring the development of a complex mix of retail boutiques, hotels, grocery stores, housing, offices, artists’ studios, restaurants, and entertainment venues. A “critical mass” of these pedestrian-scale uses must be established as quickly as possible, before the initial revitalization efforts stall for lack of support. This means making certain that visitors can find enough to do for 4 to 6 hours; that residents daily needs can be comfortably met; and that rents and sales prices continue to justify new construction or renovation.

Ultimately, reaching critical mass means that the redevelopment process is unstoppable and cannot be reversed. At that point, an upward spiral begins to create a “buzz,” increases the number of people on the streets, raises land and property values, and makes the community feel safer. More activity attracts more people which increase rents and property values creating more business opportunity which means more activity and people on the street, and so on. Simply put, in a viable downtown, more is better.

There's a lot more to this paper. It is 24 pages long and packed with great information. Go give it a read.

[FoUTASportscaster]

^I've already read it, many a time in one form or another. In my rush to name those who have refined the pedestrian preference, I forgot Brookings along with the Surface Transportation Policy Institute.

For those who are wondering, 1,500 feet equals .284 miles, or just a bit over 1/4 of a mile. The 160 acres is about 1/5th of DTD's acreage of 880 acres, meaning something at the SW edge of downtown will rarely be pedestrianed by people in the center. Again, the only ones close to the proposed site is SoCo and Jackson Street Lofts. Heck, this hotel is just beyond the quarter mile range from the Convention Center and Union Stations.