Houston Rail Expansion

[Tucy]

[QUOTE=ChampionDallas;472598]Oh ok smarty pants. Would you care to enlighten us on the numericals? [/QUOTE

Do your own research. It's really not difficult.

[Trae]

There are some great stations in their placement, but there are also many which are surrounded by what? Parking lots which use valuable development space by tracks of single story low density developments. Notice I didn't say the current METRORail, I said once the entire system gets going it looks like it will be better. So comparing the single line in Houston with the entire DART system is disingenuous, it is not a comparison I made and that should be clear.

However if you want a comparison with the current METRORail the ridership on the Houston red line at 7.5 mile line is very high, the April numbers put it at 35,067 daily Source. That is even more than the April numbers for our red line which has 25 stations at 32,789 source and substantially more than the blue line at 20,278, hopefully those numbers go up. Even though DART does get kudos for making such a large accommodating system for the suburbs it pays for it with lower ridership, which is a negative anyway you slice it. I see the future Houston system as being likely to pass the DART system with ridership. Don't get me wrong I am a DART user, but the future Houston system is going to be great.

The easy answer for this is that Houston does not have to compete with its suburbs like Dallas does, and Houston is the only major city in its metro. Building rail in the inner city first, before adding in commuter rail works in Houston. DART could not have worked with light rail only around Dallas, because the suburbs would have thrown a fit. So instead, you get the hybrid light/commuter rail thing going on with DART. It works, but rail being put in the streets and easy access to residential areas/businesses (by walking) increases ridership. Metro Rail and DART are just two different designs, so they can't really be compared. One is an urban rail system connecting points in the inner city and the other is a hybrid system connecting the suburbs with the city. Only similarities is that they both run on light rail technology.

[DallasMichael]

The easy answer for this is that Houston does not have to compete with its suburbs like Dallas does, and Houston is the only major city in its metro. Building rail in the inner city first, before adding in commuter rail works in Houston. DART could not have worked with light rail only around Dallas, because the suburbs would have thrown a fit. So instead, you get the hybrid light/commuter rail thing going on with DART. It works, but rail being put in the streets and easy access to residential areas/businesses (by walking) increases ridership. Metro Rail and DART are just two different designs, so they can't really be compared. One is an urban rail system connecting points in the inner city and the other is a hybrid system connecting the suburbs with the city. Only similarities is that they both run on light rail technology.

Of course, that's why I mentioned DART gets kudos for building such an accommodating system. That is why I think it is disingenuous to compare the overall length of the DART system to the length of the METRORail system so I was responding to that.

[CTroyMathis]

I really dig a couple of the entries in this station design comp: http://www.gometrorail.org/go/doc/2491/515699/

[skys the limit]

The easy answer for this is that Houston does not have to compete with its suburbs like Dallas does, and Houston is the only major city in its metro. Building rail in the inner city first, before adding in commuter rail works in Houston. DART could not have worked with light rail only around Dallas, because the suburbs would have thrown a fit. So instead, you get the hybrid light/commuter rail thing going on with DART. It works, but rail being put in the streets and easy access to residential areas/businesses (by walking) increases ridership. Metro Rail and DART are just two different designs, so they can't really be compared. One is an urban rail system connecting points in the inner city and the other is a hybrid system connecting the suburbs with the city. Only similarities is that they both run on light rail technology.

The real short answer is that Houston did not have the money, and still doesn't, to build anything larger with it's light rail system than what it has already done or is doing. Short answer, plain and simple.

There are many suburbs competing with Houston as economic and employment centers including Sugarland, Baytown, Pasadena, Pearland, Katy, League City, Spring, and let's not forget the main thorn in Houston's side - The Woodlands.

The Woodlands, and Montgomery County, are absolutely eating Houston's lunch right now with all of the major development that has already occurred and the significant projects that are currently underway or getting ready to start up. The Woodlands has several new skyscraper and highrise towers under development along with substantial population growth.

That huge sucking sound you are hearing are millions of square feet of office space and development with tens of thousands of jobs leaving Houston and Harris County for The Woodlands and Montgomery County.

[ChampionDallas]

Regardless, BOTH systems will flourish as time allows. Dallas and Houston are, thankfully, forward-thinking metros when it comes to most transportation needs.

[DallasMichael]

Definitely agreed. DART's expansion whether it be soon (DFW Airport, Rowlett) or future (UNT Dallas, Cotton Belt) is really going to be great and Houston having a more urban-centric rail system will be something to great to watch.

[Trae]

The real short answer is that Houston did not have the money, and still doesn't, to build anything larger with it's light rail system than what it has already done or is doing. Short answer, plain and simple.

There are many suburbs competing with Houston as economic and employment centers including Sugarland, Baytown, Pasadena, Pearland, Katy, League City, Spring, and let's not forget the main thorn in Houston's side - The Woodlands.

The Woodlands, and Montgomery County, are absolutely eating Houston's lunch right now with all of the major development that has already occurred and the significant projects that are currently underway or getting ready to start up. The Woodlands has several new skyscraper and highrise towers under development along with substantial population growth.

That huge sucking sound you are hearing are millions of square feet of office space and development with tens of thousands of jobs leaving Houston and Harris County for The Woodlands and Montgomery County.

The money wasn't the issue (at first). It was the NIMBY's blocking the rail project and a few Congressmen that blocked federal funding (in favor of more freeway funding) and sent that up to Dallas for DART (John Culberson and Tom DeLay). You are right that Sugar Land and The Woodlands are competing with Houston for some jobs. Every other suburb you listed isn't competition. Baytown gets some distribution centers, warehouses, and things supporting the Port. Always has, so big deal. Pasadena is the same way. Pearland, League City, and Katy are the quintessential suburbs. They are bedroom communities not attracting large businesses. Katy is the bedroom community for the west Houston jobs (Energy Corridor, Uptown, Downtown, etc.). Pearland is the same for areas like the TMC.

If you didn't know, Spring is in Houston's ETJ. The new Exxon corporate campus will be in Houston city limits once completed (as the city limits are along I-45 already anyway, just nothing off of the freeway yet). Your example of The Woodlands is vastly overrated though. Yes, they are growing in jobs and population, but let's get real here....what they are building in The Woodlands doesn't compare to what is going on in Houston's core right now. "Eating Houston's lunch"? Please. Houston is a pretty big city both physically and population wise, and it is not landlocked. I've seen you in the development threads on SkyscraperPage, so I don't know why you are saying what you are. If you visited, you'd know that what you're saying is false. Just a small list right here that included everything going on in The Woodlands and just a small taste of the development in Houston:

While I don't remember the pre-bust era of the late 1980s, I do know that that was a time when Houston was BOOMING and our skyline as we know it today emerged. I don't recall a time, until now, when so much is going up or being planned at the same time. I wonder how long we can expect development like this to continue? Would the pipeline to Houston only aid in construction? I mean just off the top of my head we have:

UNDER CONSTRUCTION:

Exxon Campus - Woodlands - Really Spring and Houston ETJ
Anadarko Tower - Woodlands (31-stories)
BBVA Tower - Galleria (22 stories)
The Horizon - Galleria (21 stories)
Westheimer & Sage Tower - Galleria (22 stories)
BLVD Place - Galleria

CONSTRUCTION IMMINENT:

Five Oaks Place (30 stories)

PLANNING STAGES:

State Grille Condo Tower - near Greenway (35-stories)
Convention District - Downtown
Hines Development - Downtown (blk 69) (30 stories-ish)

I'm sure there are others---like the one near Montrose and the Sw Frwy but it's pretty amazing to see so much under construction again in Houston. Thoughts?

Let me put it this way, there is more going on in the Texas Medical Center alone than there is in The Woodlands.

But anyway, there is a contest going on right now for a new "Central Station" in Downtown Houston: http://houston.culturemap.com/newsde...ntral-station/

[lockmat]

But anyway, there is a contest going on right now for a new "Central Station" in Downtown Houston: http://houston.culturemap.com/newsde...ntral-station/

C'mon Trae, share some pics ;P

maindesign3.jpg

[totheskies]

The real short answer is that Houston did not have the money, and still doesn't, to build anything larger with it's light rail system than what it has already done or is doing. Short answer, plain and simple.

There are many suburbs competing with Houston as economic and employment centers including Sugarland, Baytown, Pasadena, Pearland, Katy, League City, Spring, and let's not forget the main thorn in Houston's side - The Woodlands.

The Woodlands, and Montgomery County, are absolutely eating Houston's lunch right now with all of the major development that has already occurred and the significant projects that are currently underway or getting ready to start up. The Woodlands has several new skyscraper and highrise towers under development along with substantial population growth.

That huge sucking sound you are hearing are millions of square feet of office space and development with tens of thousands of jobs leaving Houston and Harris County for The Woodlands and Montgomery County.

As a Houstonian that's also lived in Arlington for close to a year (though oddly enough I didn't get around in Dallas or Ft. Worth as much as one would assume), I can tell you that competition amongst Houston and it's suburbs really couldn't be further from the truth. The simple reason is that the job sectors are vastly different. Remember that Houston groups it's employment in very specific sectors...

1) Downtown houses corporate and municipal offices (as well as the majority of the large-scale sports and entertainment venues)
2) the medical center houses med schools and research facilities
3) the Galleria is mostly banking and retail-related administration
4) the Energy Corridor is mostly the R & D wing for the energy sector
5) the ship channel/east is shipping, refining and heavy industrial.

Of those 5 sectors, 2 of them are located entirely inside the loop. Suburban employment is mostly centered around regional offices, hospitals and medical subsidiaries, or retail. There are a few notable exceptions, but nothing on the scale of Dallas/Ft.Worth/Irving/Richardson/Arlington/Plano.

[rantanamo]

Houston needs to fight off the Woodlands with everything it has. When you get these wealthy municipalities with any sort of momentum, they are hard to compete with. Right now, Houston has a land mass advantage, so even far off places like the Energy Corridor are still Houston proper. But all it takes is another Legacy type corporate campus boasting great access to the airport and quicker access to other areas of Texas. Fight em off Houston.

[Tnekster]

Houston needs to fight off the Woodlands with everything it has. When you get these wealthy municipalities with any sort of momentum, they are hard to compete with. Right now, Houston has a land mass advantage, so even far off places like the Energy Corridor are still Houston proper. But all it takes is another Legacy type corporate campus boasting great access to the airport and quicker access to other areas of Texas. Fight em off Houston.

Anadarko Petroleum Corp has announced plans to construct a 31-story office building next to its headquarters in The Woodlands to accommodate planned growth.

Anadarko (NYSE: APC) is beginning site work this week on the project, which will rise on land it already owns at the corner of Woodloch Forest Drive and Lake Robbins Drive. The building will have 21 floors with a total of 550,000 square feet of office space located above 10 levels of parking garage space, said John Christiansen, a company spokesman.

The building was designed by Gensler Gensler Latest from The Business Journals Watergate to undergo renovationsForest City joins housing spree along upper Market New hotels, offices eyed in San Jose Follow this company , and will be constructed by David E. Harvey Builders Inc. David E. Harvey Builders Inc. Latest from The Business Journals Pepper-Lawson Construction jumps into top 5 on HBJ contractors listStill trying to size up Exxon Mobil campusGilbane Building tops HBJ green contractors’ list Follow this company Employees learned about the new structure last week.

Anadarko’s existing tower in The Woodlands is 30-stories tall and has a total of 818,000 square feet of office space. The company also leases nearby office space, which will no longer be needed once the new building is complete in the spring of 2014.

http://www.bizjournals.com/houston/m...ice-tower.html

[Trae]

Houston needs to fight off the Woodlands with everything it has. When you get these wealthy municipalities with any sort of momentum, they are hard to compete with. Right now, Houston has a land mass advantage, so even far off places like the Energy Corridor are still Houston proper. But all it takes is another Legacy type corporate campus boasting great access to the airport and quicker access to other areas of Texas. Fight em off Houston.

Don't think The Woodlands will hurt too much. Even though you have the Exxon campus just south of there, it will be in Houston city limits. The Woodlands may not even become a city because taxes would have to go up 70%+ in order to provide adequate city services. It'll remain a township. The Woodlands and Sugar Land are the only two Houston suburbs that have any type of corporate presence. Everything else is in Houston or its ETJ.

The Woodlands is building up a pretty impressive skyline tho.