Reply With Quotethey have a plan for a system to get people from the Dart stration to the Arts District. Hmmm. Trolly?
Nice update...very promising...
http://www.nbcdfw.com/the-scene/real...119814144.html
"...Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."
they have a plan for a system to get people from the Dart stration to the Arts District. Hmmm. Trolly?
RAIN! To....much.....rain.....
Yeah...I smell a "viable reason to get the federal funding for a trolley" in this plan...Originally Posted by Double Wide
"...Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."
They are not going to seek federal funding for a trolley to traverse two blocks. It's disgusting you think they should.
Their plan is to make the development an extension of the arts district. They want people to walk through their development and stop at its shops and restaurants.
Artwork and a model of the neighborhood show wide sidewalks along a privately constructed street with lush landscaping that would provide a pedestrian path between the DART station and the Arts District.
"We intend to be a vehicle for people to get from this station up into the Arts District, through this park-like atmosphere," Ruff said.
But, the Downtown Dallas 360 Plan suggests a streetcar line down Ross Avenue, which would directly affect this development. The area is very close to DART's Pearl Station; well-designed pedestrian access through this area to/from the Arts District could bring a lot of foot traffic.
I think this project really has the right idea but it would be significantly better with a few adjustments. For starters they need to move the spine of the project one street west to Leonard. That way as soon as you get off the train and take a left on Leonard you have a beautiful tree lined view of the Winspear in the distance and the pedestrian then has a striking view and a visual indicator that they are now heading directly for their destination.
The junction of Ross and Leonard would function perfectly as a centerpiece connecting the Arts District and Arts South. Then instead of having one main road on which retail is focused they need to maintain some semblance of a grid in that area and allow San Jacinto to become a major retail boulevard (adding to Leonard) that will draw in people from the west/St Paul Ave all the way to Good Latimer on the East. Then you would have a nice grid and critical mass that goes both north/south and east/west.
The idea here is maximum connectivity. You want each new development to seamlessly blend into the city scape. Too many of these developers just do not get that idea. Each development (see Victory's failures) is seen as a stand alone end all answer when what they need to be doing is trying to be another great piece of the overall city scape.
As the plan stands now as soon as you get off the train at the Pearl station and head to the Arts district the first thing you see is the back of a building and a parking lot. Bad idea. This is another piece of the puzzle that is critical to get right. There needs to be an inviting plaza surrounded by retail or something of that shape to immediately draw visitors into Arts South as well as connect them back to the station itself and Crozier Tech on the South end there by encouraging future development on the south side that could begin to bleed over to a potential new theatre row on Elm and on into Deep Ellum.
Connectivity on a pedestrian scale is critical if we want to start building a better city instead of just new flashy stand alone projects that attempt to isolate themselves instead of engage their surroundings.
I agree. I thought it was weird that the southern most building basically blocked in the "tree lined street" from view. You should be able to get off the train and see the street to the arts district. Developments that keep everything to themselves never improve the area, and they actually end up hurting themselves as well due to the lack of connectivity.
DAGNABBIT!
Unfortunately most developers can't see the big picture because of greed. The funny thing about it is they only shoot themselves in the foot. Again, see Victory for a perfect case. Notice how the back side of the W on Houston is totally barren. Don't think that was an accident. They didn't want there money bleeding into other parts of town so they isolated themselves and look what it got them.
I fear these guys plan will do the same thing.
Oh and the other thing I would do is in regard to this plan is the surface lot at Leonard and San Jac could be turned into a great little pocket park that this area will badly need and the park will have an awesome view of that huge mural on the garage wall. Then they or another developer could follow through on previous development plans to convert that garage into a garage with condos on top and nice ground floor retail below that feeds into the new pocket park.
Woah, woah, woah...where exactly did I say that a trolley should be built for only two blocks? They were testing a trolley a few weeks ago...my only point was that this "Spire" area would be looked at as a stop for a future downtown trolley that would "traverse" all of DTD. Chill with the assumptions...
"...Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free..."
I didn't notice their website link posted upthread: http://www.thespiredallas.com/home.htm
Any new news on the progress of city approval for Phase I? I think that DTD is deserving of having the Spire come to fruition.
Here are the updated renderings for the Spire:
I'm not sure how I feel about the new design for 2400 San Jacinto. The shape has been changed to better match 2500 Ross, but the ground floor reminds me a little of Two Arts Plaza where the old design for 2400 San Jacinto seemed more pedestrian and retail oriented. I can't tell from the rendering where the residential units are supposed to go.
I also don't understand the silver blob-looking structure in the lower-left corner, and it looks like they added a building in place of the park space they were originally planning!
All the renderings can be found here: http://thespiredallas.com/
Last edited by lakewoodhobo; 12 February 2012 at 07:40 PM.
Love the new renderings, so much better looking, more comtemporary, less classic design than the previous masterplan. Residentials are not part of Phase I anymore but the new block E will be only Residentials with retails.
From the new masterplan details, http://thespiredallas.com/masterplan/masterplan-details, it looks like the hotel as been moved to the East on Federal St : silver blob-looking structure in the lower-left corner
Also, look like the all project would be anchored by two 30+story buildings, 2500 Ross Avenue on the North-West and the hotel on the South-East.
comparison_masterplans.jpg
Great design qualities! I love how the 30 story hotel is elliptical and how the base follows the curve in the street, unlike the previous design. The grey glob looking building could be some sort of interior atrium with cafes for the lunch crowds, which would be really neat. Architecturally speaking, I think this will have much more of an overall impact on the skyline as opposed to the basic box building. One thing that I would change with the new rendering convert the parking lot on the bottom right side of the rendering to a park that would then be connected to the park at the bottom of the rendering by means of purging that part of San Jacinto Ave (or perhaps making it into a tunnel); of course that would cost a lot.
LOoks to me like the silver blob is an office building. The hotel is in the second 30 story tower on the back side.That is a big hotel!!
I like that they are really touting the care that they took with the urban design. We'll see. Hopefully they've had time to really study this, and taken a look at what went wrong at Victory. Am keeping my fingers crossed. The towers do look more modern than before.
I wonder if Plaza of America will try to construct some sort of pleasant, convenient access points to the new neighbor.
That land is not part of this development, if I understand correctly. That is/was supposed to be for a second phase of the Jefferson Arts apartments.
The new renderings are growing on me, and I do like how they seem to fill their space better than before. Just hoping Phase 1 starts sooner rather than later.
Spire may not realize it, but this could be more successful real estate if mostly residential. I hope the current plan is delayed.
That's what I was thinking. I was looking at the details on their webpage and it looks like a lot of office space, which I find odd considering that downtown has a vacancy rate issue with regards to office space, not to get in a argument with anyone over what the exact rate is. Of course they should still have some office space, but more residential units in this development would be great
I love the new designs. That hotel would be nice, but who would they get to occupy it? I hope this all gets built up, but like others, I would like to see more residential than office.
RAIN! To....much.....rain.....
Right my mistake, I misinterpreted words (sorry English is not my native Language). It is the Block G: institutional/office 2-story building.
I am wondering what institution would be interested in leasing this kind of office space? I would love to see some department of the City Hall moving there, let's say Cultural affairs, CityDesign Studio or even TxDPS.
Look where the Mayor of London moved in 2002:
CityHallLondon.JPG
Excellent point(s) of consideration:
A city like Dallas, despite having absurd office space vacancy rates, must stay on the front line of architectural evolution. It's time for the business community to leap-frog the new architecture of the cultural institutions.
I personally believe there is room for both but would love to maximize Ross as a business address so love the idea of fresh office product fronting Ross. Its a prestigous address here in Dallas, when was the last time an office tower was constructed on Ross Avenue?
Last edited by Tnekster; 13 February 2012 at 04:05 PM.
I like it but..... Is it just me or does it look like there all of the pedestrian activity would occur in the center of the development versus being streetside on Routh, Bryan or Ross?
Seems pretty office-heavy to me, personally. 190 residential units in the whole development isn't going to do a whole lot to activate the neighborhood
Spire has a pic of their model up on their facebook page "Spire Realty Group"
Not sure if the link below will work
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Spire...537672?sk=wall
Maybe they just don't project a heavy demand for CDB residencies. Personally I would think that more residencies in this development would be great. Not to start an office class debate again, but I wonder how much of the "class A" space would be lost if they doubled the residencies
Last edited by DallasMichael; 15 February 2012 at 06:43 PM.
even if they initially make it mostly office space, something tells me in a few years, they'll all be converted to residential, anyone :P
anyone know when this development will actually get off the ground?
Some quick math, the following numbers are from their website
Total Residential - 190 Residential Units - 150,000 SF
Total Office - 1.250.000 SF
A hypothetical doubling of the number of units could look like this
Total Residential - 380 Units - 300,000 Sq Ft
Total Office - 1,100,000 Sq Ft
Now before anyone goes off on such a simplistic approach to something as complicated as building these structures let me just say this. Yes I know it is not that simple. However it does look like the number of residential units could be increased dramatically while having only a modest decrease in office space.
Seems like the trend with these mixed-use projects in the arts district is to leave their residential component for a later phase. Two Arts is no longer mixed-use, and Hall is building its office "box" first. These residences are just too high-end for what the market will absorb and what you'll see is middle-class "stick" multifamily, like City Lights and maybe Arts Apartments Phase 2 break ground first.
Here is what Spire had to say when asked why they were only building a 150 residential units.
"Alex, nothing will be built speculative, but we are in various stages of negotiations with prospective tenants to kick start phase 1. Mike, on the surface it may appear that way, and downtown residential is one of the most impressive growth stories in the city, but this spot is where Downtown meets Uptown and is simply more desirable to office users currently".
RAIN! To....much.....rain.....
Im gonna bet they get one building into it before the project goes kaput...how many multibuilding developments in downtown have tried and failed in dallas's history? Many of the big skyscrapers are ones whose siblings were never built
What was the good (or new) news from that story? Sounded like what we already know - might break ground next year if they can land a lead tenant.
^^^^
This developer is very different from most.
First, They are privately funded and are not reliant on the financial markets to obtain funding to build the project.
Second, they have stated they could literally build out the entire project at once, right now today, if they wished to do so because the private money behind the project is so immense.
Third, they have stated that they are extremely patient and because the private money behind The Spire is so great, they are able to wait until market conditions (pre-leasing) is right for them to start construction. In the interim, revenue generated from the surface parking lots covers all of their expenses.
Unlike other multi-building projects in the past, I fully believe and expect that this project will be fully built out. There are also a couple of parcels being left for yet more future development that could also see development.
The Spire developers are a very unique breed unto themselves, very different from Hall, Billingsley, Harwood, KDC, Crescent, etc.
just one I predict that won't get built. One tower at a time? Yes, but its too easy to sit on parking lots in Dallas.
Private financing is dependent on the state of financial/capital markets, even if not directly. If *(!# hits the fan, this money will dry up, too.Third, they have stated that they are extremely patient and because the private money behind The Spire is so great, they are able to wait until market conditions (pre-leasing) is right for them to start construction. In the interim, revenue generated from the surface parking lots covers all of their expenses.
If there were as much demand for the space they want to build as we're led to believe there is capital to build it, they would have started already. I think a more likely scenario than your Point #3 is that they need X% of pre-leasing to begin the all/part of the first phase. From the KXAS report, it sounds like they're shaking the trees for a lead tenant who would help get them there.
For the record, I think this is a great project and want to see it happen. With that said, DTD has never seen a complete project of this scale built entirely to its master plan--One Main, Fountain Place, Victory, West Village, One Arts. I'll believe you when you say the Spire Group marches to a different drummer, but I'm not sure they can defy gravity, just yet.
Even if everything you say is true (and it may well be), none of it tells us much about whether the project will be completely built. Food for thought: (1) They have recently made changes to the plan (it's a little difficult to presume the full plan will be built when the plan is obviously still flexible. (2) It is already more than 2 years since this development was announced.
Last edited by Tucy; 01 March 2012 at 12:54 PM.
If they're intending on building a neighborhood, residential space would dominate. I really like the plans they're showing us, and the pedestrian course to the Arts District has been needed for a decade, but it's so disheartening that more from-scratch office space will be the primary component of the project."We're really not building an office building or a residential building. We're building a neighborhood," said Jon Ruff, a Spire executive.
The hotel, situated next to the train station, is perfect, and a sort of patio promenade with stores and restaurants is ideal, but the temporary sense of place created by office workers will stifle the potential of the "neighborhood."
The plan is a fluffy media release to generate interest, not a blueprint for the contractor.
Food for thought: that's how it works. How long did it take to assemble the acreage? I doubt anyone assumes an announcement of a projects implies a guarantee that what's presented on day one will be completely built. How long was Azure marketed before it was built? One Arts? CitiPlace?
My thoughts exactly. This development reaks of Dallas development. Big land grab to keep the super low prices from going up for your next project, then you build one or none of the towers and sell off your properties for a much higher price later. The price is still low enough that the buyer may make more by using it as parking or even just sitting on it. This thing is not big enough to not go up all at once and survive. The synergy from it needs to be manufactured now. Especially with the demand for rental right now. You could probably do 2, 300 unit rental towers and get 90+ occupancy now and perhaps have to buy options later. Instead, same old Dallas, condo or bust mentality. As others have said. Love the concept, but will believe it when I see it.
I don't recall if we discussed this before, but in the Dallas real estate community, there is a fair amount of skepticism about this project. The two principals at Spire are young up-and-comers, but they are primarily known as real estate management guys (i.e., asset mgmt, leasing, etc), rather than experienced urban developers who can pull off a project like this. Sometimes I think about the early days of Victory, when the Palladium company was brought in to develop and implement the plan there. There was a lot of buzz that you need a Palladium to pull off a project like this, and when they disappeared, suddenly you didn't need them and Perot Jr thought he could pull it off on his own.
I was working on a project and some of our team members met the Spire guys to discuss business. They are well aware of the skepticism about their project and they seemed to be determined to prove to everyone they can do it. I think about Jack Matthews... he has very very slowly expanded his Southside neighborhood concept. Matthews also has renderings of a fantastic urban neighborhood which he showed off when the convention hotel was being planned, but we're 15 years in to that one and it still hasn't jelled... Matthews is a very smart guy and he's trying to slowly turn the corner without jeopardizing his business. You would think trying to turn the corner in the Cedars is a lot harder than prime land off Ross Avenue, but the basic challenges are still there. A flip-and-run wouldn't shock me at all, but I do hope Spire succeeds here. Dallas is aching for a real, cohesive urban development downtown, and the team that can pull it off will make a real name for themselves.
If the Spire guys have a firm control over their company, the location of this property should get them through. I just don't understand the heavy heaping of office space instead of residential. The potential profit must be so much greater. All the big, successful developers have landmark or signature or iconic or revolutionary office towers pending, and a common theme in the occasional combo press release / publicity piece is that big office renters around town have lease renewals in the near future and can be easily lured into a shiny new building, customized with all the newest amenities that may not exist in an older building.
Spire is a company accepting the media spotlight with plans to build a legacy in Dallas comparable to Trammell Crow. But, to me, the company planning to turn these outstanding 13 acres into its cornerstone by doing the same thing everyone else is doing is just disappointing. Downtown Dallas doesn't need new office buildings, it needs renovation of old ones.
If Spire wants an elevated reputation, a lofty legacy as a neighborhood builder, they will take the opportunity of a new course, and make downtown a better place to live.
Thanks for posting your agreement with me. (Note that my post was in response to Dallas Soars' statement that he "fully believe[s] and expect[s] that this project will be fully built out." It seems Dallas Soars does in fact assume ... that the project will be completely built. I was merely stating there is nothing on the record on which to base that assumption.)
Last edited by Tucy; 27 February 2012 at 11:30 AM.
Uhh... thanks? Perhaps you could comment that the press release was also written in English or that the author used black font. It would be just as insightful.
DAGNABBIT!
New article that's suggests that either they are going to start construction or/but it also appears that they have not signed tenants yet so I guess we will see. I know the Planning Committee meeting for this month shows that they are getting all the land replated to match their overall site plan so I guess they are making some progress lets just hope that means construction will start.
http://www.globest.com/news/12_308/d...nt-319692.html
DALLAS-Following years of planning and land acquisition, Spire Realty Group LP is ready to move dirt on its 12-acre mixed use project that is dubbed, appropriately enough, The Spire. The local commercial real estate owner and developer has pulled permits and signed construction documents to begin its first phase on this CBD project: a 350,000-square-foot office building that will also offer 35,000 square feet of retail space.
Jon Ruff, Spire Realty’s senior vice president tells GlobeSt.com that the next step is finding a lead tenant for the development, which will then spur a groundbreaking. “We’re also turning attention to other sites in the project for development. Right now, based on the master plan, we could build approximately 3 million square foot of space,” he adds. The current master plan calls for a mix of office, retail and residential, with enough space for a 500-key hotel. The 12-acre development is located just south of the Arts District, and is bordered by Ross Avenue, North Central Expressway (U.S. 75) and Leonard Street...
Last edited by cowboyeagle05; 18 March 2012 at 03:39 PM.
Yeah, it doesn't really look like there is much, if any, news here. No construction until they sign a lead tenant.
"We’re also turning attention to other sites in the project for development."
Sounds like a very cryptic way of saying they would be willing to start with 2500 Ross instead of 2400 San Jacinto if the right tenant comes in. I wonder if BBVA Compass is still looking for their Dallas HQ. I haven't heard or read anything about that since last year.
My best guess now that I have had time to reread the article again is that the article was setup as a way to poke any potential lead tenants that Spire is ready to build as soon as someone is willing to sign on the dotted line. Kinda like stating just FYI to the business real estate world that Spire has all its ducks lined up and can build immediately as soon as someone says yes. I think its more likely they will get this first tower built. The next question is where are all these tenants that the DBJ, DMN etc had been saying were shopping for new spaces Downtown/Uptown? They must be moving really slow to browse their options.
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