So, I wonder if this is still a reasonably accurate rendering:
And, you get a partial view of the park nearby...
The article mentions that the City of Dallas will "create a park nearby." I am assuming that is a reference to the park already slated to go between the Merc and the Dallas Municipal Courts Building. I know there is a rendering of the park in another thread where proposed "CBD Parks" were being discussed. Can someone copy that rendering from the other thread and paste in this one? Thank you in advance.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
So, I wonder if this is still a reasonably accurate rendering:
And, you get a partial view of the park nearby...
Both renderings above and below from the city hall website.
^Thanks Troy. I know there is another rendering of that entire park from a different viewpoint (looking West or Northwest, I think). I think it's in the same thread that you may have found that one in.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
I just yanked that one out of city hall's website a little while ago. Haven't checked the other thread yet - will do!
I like that, and would love to see that clock tower lit up at night. Is that tower behind the clock tower the new construction?
Looks like it is.
Downtown Parks Master Plan images:
http://skylinegruve2004.dallasmetrop...coreparks2.jpg
http://skylinegruve2004.dallasmetrop...nstgarden1.jpg
http://skylinegruve2004.dallasmetrop...nstgarden2.jpg
http://skylinegruve2004.dallasmetrop...nstgarden3.jpg
http://skylinegruve2004.dallasmetrop...nstgarden4.jpg
http://skylinegruve2004.dallasmetrop...-redevalt1.jpg
http://skylinegruve2004.dallasmetrop...-redevalt2.jpg
What is currently on that block of land in front of the Grand Hotel?
^Never mind, I went to dfwmaps.com and looked it up. It is a couple of parking lots and some small structures.
I just realized that Forest City is also doing a big project in Chicago, the Central Station, which will be south of the loop & west of the museums and soldier field. I'll be checking back to the Forest site often to see Dallas added under the projects u/c page.
The rendering shows only the Mercantile Securities Building demolished. The newspaper articles indicate that all of the buildings on the block, except for the original Mercantile National Bank Building, will be demolished. I also wonder if with the restoration of the clock tower, they will replace the red neon letters that spelled "Mercantile" vertically on the backside of the original building.Originally Posted by Tnekster
http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com - Architecture in Downtown Fort Worth
http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum - The Fort Worth Forum
http://www.dallasarchitecture.info - Architecture in Downtown Dallas
I see the clock spire with noen lights going around it... yet another great lighting effect to our beautiful skyline
Somethings ya just can't change.
It has been so long since the clock was illuminated, I can barely remember how it looked. From what I do remember is the clock was outlined in neon with the outline on the lines for the numbers and then each hand was outlined. The part I really don't remember was the illumination on the spire.
http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com - Architecture in Downtown Fort Worth
http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum - The Fort Worth Forum
http://www.dallasarchitecture.info - Architecture in Downtown Dallas
The spire originally was lighted to tell the weather - either the temp or the forecast of rain or dry. I can't remember which one of those it was.
both, in a way. If it was green rings going up meant dry weather and getting warmer, green rings going down meant dry weather getting colder, red rings going up meant wet getting warmer, red rings going down meant wet getting colder.
I think.
This is amazing, btw.
Tonight I noticed that there's a really nice building with an old-timey mountain-town lookin' façade.. that looks really nice. granite and such. like old red. anyway, in the renderings for the park, it acts like they're going to leave the front façade, but nothig else. is this awkward?
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
...at lease this lighting effect will have a mundane purpose.
Those renderings Troy posted are a couple of years old from when another developer was having its go at the property.
Good, I figured I could count on City Hall using old stuff.
Maybe I'm imagining things, but I thought the last itme I saw it lit they used orange neon?
It was either red or orange. I think it's on an old poster I have of the skyline in the late 70s, early 80s.
Found this somewhere on the internet
^ That shows the clock illuminated, but not the spire.
http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com - Architecture in Downtown Fort Worth
http://www.fortwortharchitecture.com/forum - The Fort Worth Forum
http://www.dallasarchitecture.info - Architecture in Downtown Dallas
Ripple effect of Merc deal seen
Dallas: Downtown tax aid could draw funds from other projects
09:53 PM CDT on Friday, June 3, 2005
By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News
Slap a quarter-billion-dollar development in the middle of Dallas' languid downtown and, like belly-flopping into still water, everything around gets drenched.
Drenched with economic success for some? Peril for others? It depends on whom you ask.
Dallas officials agreed in principle Wednesday to provide Cleveland-based developer Forest City Enterprises with upwards of $65 million in tax and other incentives. In turn, the developer would transform nearly three city blocks of vacant or almost-vacant buildings into nearly 1,000 residential units and storefront after storefront of retail space.
Just a week earlier, the deal had almost died because of disagreements over incentive amounts.
The new agreement means that public-sector help for other downtown development projects – and plenty exist – could become scarce. Such a dramatic project may also alter ideas of what the city's core could and should become.
The debate begins in earnest Wednesday as the council considers creating a downtown tax-increment finance district worth $124 million over the next 30 years.
The district would allow developers to recoup up to that amount in property taxes generated from increased land and structure values and use it for such endeavors as demolition, building beautification and infrastructure improvements.
Forest City's redevelopment of the Mercantile Bank complex, Continental building and former TXU Gas Co. complex could, if approved as conceived, extinguish more than half the investment district's funding at once.
Some top Dallas political and business leaders say it's a necessary price to pay. They consider the redevelopment of these buildings essential to downtown's rebirth as a vibrant residential and retail center, in addition to its more traditional commercial function.
The decrepit, garbage-strewn eyesores of today stand to become homes to hundreds of people, and the workplaces of hundreds more, within years. Such a development, project backers say, will drive more development.
"This alone could tip us into a market-driven environment where you don't have to give as much subsidy to anyone as before. It's huge," said Alice Murray, president of the Central Dallas Association, which represents downtown business interests.
"But the point of other downtown projects – it's a point that has to be taken into consideration."
Fantroy concerned
Council member James Fantroy said he's "quite concerned" that the city seems willing to pour so many resources into redeveloping one section of downtown when other downtown areas, not to mention neighborhoods in Dallas' southern sector, are receiving considerably less.
"We have to grow downtown – no doubt. But at what cost?" Mr. Fantroy asked.
In the West End, a downtown district with a dense concentration of restaurants and bars, landowners would love to build a park where a parking lot sits in the shadow of the Spaghetti Warehouse. They desperately want the city to provide at least a few million dollars in subsidies to make it happen.
The area has suffered for months because of lost traffic from Dallas Stars hockey games – canceled when the National Hockey League ditched its 2004-2005 season because of labor disputes. A large gathering space could host festivals and other moneymaking events.
Greg Schooley, executive director of the West End Association, said he fully supports the city offering Forest City tax subsidies. What's good for the southeastern quadrant of downtown is good for all of downtown, he said.
"All we're asking for is that while you're doing these other great projects, make sure that we over here don't die," Mr. Schooley said. "We must protect places like the West End and Deep Ellum, the assets the city already has."
Other projects that could vie for the $124 million in tax incentives include:
Building a deck over the canyon-like Woodall Rodgers Freeway in the Arts District, with a park on top. The total project is estimated to cost up to $60 million.
Creating a large park along Main Street.
Bringing small, deteriorating buildings on a block on Elm Street near the Stone Street Gardens up to fire code. Without costly fire escapes, their top floors cannot be redeveloped.
Redeveloping properties at 1414 Elm St. and 1900 Pacific Ave.
Funding an extension of the McKinney Avenue trolley line so it connects with downtown's Dallas Area Rapid Transit train line.
"It's a personal goal of mine to find these funds, and I believe we can figure out a way to fund the key buildings," said Assistant City Manager Ryan Evans, who oversees downtown economic development for the city.
"And with the Mercantile, it's such a big, highlighted project that it will benefit all of downtown. It will cause a market ripple."
For Mayor Laura Miller, the city's limited tax incentives are best used to ensure the full redevelopment of the Mercantile Bank complex and surrounding buildings.
An earlier downtown tax-incentive zone, formally known as a tax-increment finance district, too often provided incentives on a first-come, first-serve basis to developers interested in smaller, disjointed projects, Ms. Miller said.
'We were reactive'
With Dallas' new zone, the $124 million in incentives it offers can help the city realize its vision of redeveloping its consummate monument to blight.
"We were reactive, giving money to anyone who wanted to turn anything into something," Ms. Miller said. "It would be a terrible mistake to take the same approach this time."
Council member Mitchell Rasansky, one of Dallas' most fiscally conservative officeholders, said even he believes in the importance of offering tax subsidies to Forest City.
"I don't like to give money away, but this is a must-do for all of downtown," he said. "There may be other projects out there, yes. But I have tunnel vision to get this done."
E-mail dlevinthal@dallasnews.com
In a better world, people like this would be eaten by alligators as soon as they said something so stupid."We have to grow downtown – no doubt. But at what cost?" Mr. Fantroy asked.
Refusing to steal people's money via taxes is not a cost to you, Mr Fantroy, you Marxist loser.
More alligators, please.Council member Mitchell Rasansky...
"I don't like to give money away, but this is a must-do for all of downtown," he said.
Last edited by mdunlap1; 04 June 2005 at 10:31 AM.
word
hahahaha
I knew this would stir up some emotions
I fully believe that given an ongoing confluence of economic, migratory, and cultural trends within our country, Dallas has the chance within many of our lifetimes to be a true Top 5 American (if not Top 5 North American) city. But the best way to do this is to get out of the way of these trends and people's ingenuity (especially the kind demonstrated by Texans for well over a century).
It is leeches and looters like Fantroy and Rasansky that drive everyone and the businesses, restaurants, creativity, arts projects, and everything else that they control, out of the center city, or, out of the region and state altogether. (Luckily for DFW, the governments of many other major American cities and states are currently stocked with even more aggressive leeches than the ones the City of Dallas features.)
Let Forest City and anyone else that so desires compete to clean up downtown Dallas by bringing the people and businesses that they will bring. (If the West End people want their park, they should be telling the city government to get out of the way of central downtown regeneration, let the people and businesses flow back into the area, and then watch their potential pool (of local friends, neighbors, and customers) from which they can privately raise funds for their park, grow exponentially. Personally, I think they'd become so busy with new traffic that they'd quickly forget about the need for a park to draw new customers.)
Oh, and I'm sure Rasansky and Fantroy would end up being perfectly happy with all their potential new victims as well.
The Clock Spire
Somethings ya just can't change.
Wow, I've never heard about the music before....but since its going to be residential I doubt that will be brought back.
^I am sure this topic has recieved much discussion on this board, so pardon me for not reading old threads. But, why should we put even another penny of tax payer's money into expanding the Trolley?
Don't get me wrong, I think the Trolley cars are very cool and add a nice feel to McKinney, but what is their function besides asthetics? In the current configuration, the trolley is a very poor mode of public transit. I have given-up waiting on trolley many times and walked to my destination.
I am not trying to be critical, I would really like to understand why the trolley's continue to hold public support, when its quite obvious there are very few riders.
Yup. The trolly needs to be replaced with electrict-line buses.
Practical, reliable, and great for pedestrian oriented development because you don't get a face-full of exhaust. They're quiet, too.
I sort of agree. While I think it would be a viable system, it would only be so if it were a modernized system. As much as I like the trolley cars they have, a more modern streetcar might be a better route, preferrably one that goes two ways.^I am sure this topic has recieved much discussion on this board, so pardon me for not reading old threads. But, why should we put even another penny of tax payer's money into expanding the Trolley?
Don't get me wrong, I think the Trolley cars are very cool and add a nice feel to McKinney, but what is their function besides asthetics? In the current configuration, the trolley is a very poor mode of public transit. I have given-up waiting on trolley many times and walked to my destination.
I am not trying to be critical, I would really like to understand why the trolley's continue to hold public support, when its quite obvious there are very few riders.
^That would actually make an impact! Are there any plans to modernize the MATA?
Yeah. It seems this may be a lack of foresight for uptown.
As population densities increase with towers going up all over the place, are expansions of public transportation being planned for? Or are they suddenly going to wind up with log-jammed citystreets with no trains and a good-for-nothing trolly blocking lanes of traffic?
I think the trolly gives Uptwon "character"... a bus doesn't do that.
^ Agreed. The use trolleys is efficient as well, though ours could be a little less noisy.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
Electric buses have character, and they actually serve transportation needs reliably.
Though, you guys speak so highly of these trollys, maybe I just caught them on a bad time? It seemed awfully slow to me.
They're working on it:
http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3181
Post #76
We do understand this. It's also been a stretch, however, to convince Uptown residents that the trolley is the way to go. I'm glad that the forumers around here seem to understand the usefulness of streetcar transportation, but Dallas is still an automobile city, and it's a slow transformation/brainwashing to convince the general public.
None of this is an overnight transformation. The whole process of expanding the line takes time, careful planning, and lots of money. You're not going to see streetcar lines pop up justlikethat.
Then, of course, there is the issue of who's gonna do it? This debate has been hashed and rehashed. Right now, we are still a small nonprofit working on building ourselves up. It's actually working quite well, believe it or not--ridership for the first 4 months of the year is up 19%--yes, 19%--from last year. But it will take time to develop this city into a streetcar city.
You know, it's funny--the automobile killed the streetcar in the 50s. Now we're trying to resurrect the system from the dead, because we realize what a valuable service it indeed was. But it's going to be a long, hard fight to see a system anywhere near what we had back in the glory days.
I wouldn't say there's a "broken link" anywhere. It just takes time. And money. And hard work. Maybe we'll get there, some day...but it won't be tomorrow.
In the mean time, be patient, my friends, and we may be coming a little closer in the not-so-distant future.
TG2
Good-for-nothing? Ok, I'm really trying to be nice here, but was that really necessary at all? I realize people are entitled to their opinions, but is there a need to make brash statements condemning an entire system like that?
I wrote a long statement regarding these kinds of comments over in the MATA: Expansion thread.
And, yes, there is a need to spend taxpayer dollars (the first time this would be done, by the way) for expansion, if you ever do want to see a more modernized system. And yes, it is in the long-range plans.
You guys are so critical. And impatient.
I'm tired.
TG2
Oh, and this "lack of foresight".......is kind of laughable. Considering that the trolley was there before there was an Uptown. I'm not going to say the trolley is responsible for every bit of development in the area, but it has been a major contributor to the urbanization and growth of the area. Remember, when we began operations in 1989, there were still vacant lots on McKinney Avenue.
P.S.: Can we keep the trolleytalk in a trolley thread?
I agree lets keep it in another thread, but I want to say that even though the trolley never stops when I am at the stop waiting for it, forcing me to walk to cityplace and almost beating the trolley there, I still love it :biggrin2:
Personally, I like the trolly the way it is. It makes uptown seem like uptown and adds a nice historical perspective to the area.
i agree. it makes the area feel unique. And, honestly, if its a distance you can walk and beat the trolley (in my experience, that's typically about half the length of the system), you should probably be walking anyway. Anyone used to living in a big, walkable city (that isn't of or from money) would only use the Trolley to get from, for example, the Crescent to the West Village, or the West Vilage to the DMA, or some other similiar distance.
TG2, are there any plans to increase the number of cars on the line? i.e. decrease wait time from 15 min to 10 or 8 min? that would probably silence most of the complaints...
I think a lot of the MATA naysayers' opinions are driven by a misperception of what MATA's current "function" is. While it has been discussed in a couple of threads here in this forum, I will try to sum it up for you here.
MATA, in its current structure (operates on donations and volunteers) is not trying to provide a reliable or rapid means of traversing the streets of Uptown. The agency would need far more funding to accomplish those goals in a way that would satisfy many of your complaints. Who knows? Maybe in the next couple of years MATA will receive that additional funding so that it can purchase more trolley cars, hire full time staff, invest in deteriorating infrastructure/rails, expand the line in the CBD, etc. All of these things will increase the reliability, durability, and frequency of the service. Until then, MATA will remain this organization that provides us with a "touristy" type mode of transportation that should be used more for bar/gallery hoping in Uptown, rather than a reliable everyday transportation option. I am personally convinced that as Uptown becomes denser, MATA will receive increased support from the private and public sectors that will enable the agency to transform itself. However, until that happens, it is unfair to criticize MATA's trolley line for the reasons mentioned above.
Now, I'll get back to the thread topic:
_____________________________________
^I agree that it is a necessary price to pay.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
No you did not catch it at a bad time they are very, very slow.
I'd rather drive anyway, I have never been a public transportation person, but as stated before the trolly is great for aesthetics in uptown though.
Last edited by DallasLakewood; 05 June 2005 at 11:58 PM.
I didn't think there was such a thing as a Capitalist anarchist, but I guess I was wrong.
Consumers are not [the same as] citizens, and when a system pretends that they are, peculiar and even perverse things happen to decision making and democracy... - Benjamin Barber
Yes.
If your trolley service is so great, you should have no worries with letting people freely choose whether or not to spend their money on it.
Surely you think it's great enough that it would survive without having to forcibly take people's money via government for it, right?
No Trolley Fights
mdunlap, it's a free service... like roads, the money has to come from somewhere. if the tax-payers had that much problem with it, they would raise and cry about it. obviously they do not.
I don't care about the trolley, does anybody know when they are going to start construction on Mercantile since the deal has been revived?
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