hasn't someone at city hall thought, "what good are tons of parks if there's no one down here to enjoy them..." i mean, come on, allow the development of residential and retail buildings on those sites if developers wish to do so...Originally Posted by larchlion
Parks are greatly needed down here. I agree new development is great too, but there is plenty of unused space downtown now to have both. Parks are an attraction for people to come downtown, live downtown, work downtown, etc.Outside space is much more attractive of a seller than concrete is. That's why housing developments fight for park like locations or locations of natural significance.
So have we heard any news on this yet? Any decisions made?
geosophy, i haven't seen your name before. i am a professional urban designer to let you know. yes, parks are great and people want to live on them. however, somebody needs to pay for them. the current bond package has already specified a number of city blocks downtown to become city parks. what needs to happen next, is to leverage these new parks, already with funding mechanisms in place, for the critical mass of residential development that is necessary to provide a living, breathing, vibrant downtown that can support night time retail beyond what the transient office workers already do for lunch time. currently, downtown dallas functions much more like an office park than a downtown and a number of potential synergies are lost/wasted/squandered. everything must be done in a logical sequential order or you get the urban renewal of the 60s that left cities all over blighted.
the residential conversions happening now are pretty much occurring organically due to the market, the future for parks are in place, the next phase is the "urban acupuncture" of mixed-use buildings, retail on the ground, residential above on the vacant and underperforming properties in and around downtown. now, i'm not saying these will be the ONLY parks downtown. there will most likely be more, but someone will have to come along and assemble quite a number of parcels to organize some new residential around a new park, much like what is happening at the merc, and that is only a possibility through substantial subsidization from the city. otherwise the development will be piecemeal and organic, which isn't a bad thing, just more difficult to create new parks and new areas for parks, especially considering it is and has been very difficult to acquire the "underperforming" properties, i.e. the surface parking lots downtown. many of these are owned back east and are cash cows for the landowners with no interest or stake in seeing Dallas improving. a number of cities around the country are doing different things to prevent this from happening. my hometown of harrisburg, PA reversed the downtown as office park trend by implementing a split tax, which makes sense in theory and has also worked in practice. properties that contribute and enhance the overall quality of the town pay less in taxes, properties that are a blight or underperforming such as surface lots get taxed four times the amount. this has allowed the city to become a 24 hour destination, no longer 9 to 5. but there are a number of ways, it just takes some backbone.
Well I heard from someone that this was purchased and plans are being developed now. Is this true? Is it going through!?
It sure would be nice.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
i think if it went through, it would be one of the biggest catalysts down there. when developers see that somebody can make the merc work, then i am sure they would be more inclined
you need to read everything i've posted on this topic.
you mean your last prior paragraph? I noticed your language there.
So do we have any more news on this?
Is this project dead again?
^ Not sure. It is awfully quiet though.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
I wouldn't say that it is dead yet. From what I remember either in an article or someone on this website mentioning that Forest City tries to keep things under wraps. Depending on the scope on the project they could be running through different schemes. It seems like a rather large project I can only imagine the amt of code research, studies for asbestos abatement, sup applications, etc. Hopefully we will hear something about them moving forward in the near future.
there are a lot of moving parts that have to happen in order for the city to pony up the necessary subsidy.
^ But it is not dead...
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
Is something happening here? The sidewalk on the Ervay side of the complex (across from Neiman's) is now blocked off to foot traffic.
It has been that way for a few weeks now...i'm thinking that they're just fixing the sidewalk.
When I drove by this weekend I noticed it was blocked off too... At that time they were actually putting up Holiday decorations on the Neiman Marcus building- so I assume they might still be doing that...
Ahhh, the holidays would be so nice when stepping out of your building, the Merchantile, to see Neiman's holiday decorations. That scene makes me think of that movie 'Yes Virginia, There is a Santa Claus."Holiday decorations on the Neiman Marcus building
You're feeling very sentimental today, tamtagon...
I always like when it looks like renderings have come to life, with the wet sidewalks, lots of people, the lit trees...mmmmmmm.
Funny that you mentioned Santa Claus and the Mercantile in the same post.
Dallas uber alles
That's making me laugh, but I'm not sure why. It just seems like there's something to it in the back of my mind...
I'd like it if I had any idea where that came from / what it meant..
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acid trip?
Dallas uber alles
Go to the Victory site or find the renderings. You'll see what I mean. That, or watch a Christmas movie that takes place in a large city.
Yes. I use drugs.
By the way.... just remembered this. In last week's city council while they were discussing the TIF package for the Fidelity Bank Tower conversion, Laura Miller mentioned something to the effect that she had been working on the Mercantile Project for the past 3 months trying to work things out. It was a brief one sentence, and did not end with it being pushed forward or ending. Only that it is a hard project to work on. She made this statement in order to push forward with getting the TIF for the Fidelity Bank Tower conversion.
So does not sound like the Merc is dead, but instead negotiation.
WOAH!
GlobeSt.com EXCLUSIVE: Forest City Plying $100M-Plus CBD Plan
By Connie Gore
Last updated: November 17, 2004 07:57am
DALLAS-Forest City Enterprises Inc. has gone hard on contracts for roughly 1.4 million sf of longtime vacant vintage space in the Dallas CBD. Though the redevelopment hinges on city assistance, the Cleveland-based master craftsman of urban projects is shooting for a late 2005 construction start. "The two deals will be over $100 million," David J. Levey, executive vice president for Forest City Residential Group Inc., tells GlobeSt.com. His plans for the Mercantile complex, four empty buildings with close to 1.1 million sf on one block, and its neighbor across the way, the 304,860-sf Continental Building, call for 400 to 600 apartments and a spattering of gallery-type, specialty retail.
RTKL Associates Inc. of Dallas is working on the design as Levey and team work through a complicated due diligence and continue talks with city officials about contributing to the redevelopment plan. Levey says the goal is to close the sales with Spire Realty of Houston and Glenn Solomon of Dallas by mid-2005. Sources confirm there has been preliminary discussion about expanding the $108-million tax increment financing coffer by another $50 million. Most of the funds from the initial seed money to revitalize the downtown have been committed although a small chunk was in place at one time for the Mercantile complex, which Spire Realty bought in 2000 from Principal Financial Group of Des Moines. Less than a year later, Solomon paid close to $10 million to Principal for the Continental Building at 1810 Commerce St.
Levey says the Forest City plan calls for a mix of renovated Art Deco space and new product, for sale or for rent, interspersed with "festive" retail. The centerpiece to "the Merc," as it's known around town, is a 359,348-sf, 31-story building at 1704 Main St., built in 1942 and the only US high rise that rose during World War II. The rest of the block holds a 347,037-sf structure, built in 1958 at 1807 Commerce St.; 213,270-sf, 55-year-old building at 1802 Main St.; and 116,322-sf building, which rose in 1972 at 1808 Main St.
Levey says Jack Gosnell with United Commercial Realty in Dallas spent a year selling Dallas' story to the Forest City decision-makers, whose forte is repositioning distressed urban neighborhoods into successful mixed-use developments. The talks started with "the Merc" and then included the Continental, which comes equipped with 380 underground parking spaces and a connection to the pedestrian tunnel system linking most of the CBD buildings. Levey says there are numerous hurdles to jump before the sales can close. "Dallas has great potential," he says. "I think Dallas is one big urban center and it's just slow in coming along." The project, which still is without a name, won't become reality without the city's help, he says, citing the high price to buy and develop a mixed-use project of the Merc's magnitude. "It just can't," he stresses. "The economics are what they are."
It's good to see that this is still on the drawing board... But what the heck is "festive" retail?
I had the impression there would be more residential units, and it kinda seems like the Continental Building's connection to the downtown tunnels will be an desirable amenity in marketing the whole redevelopment. Hum, festive retail, I wonder too. Maybe nothing as functional as what the Men's Warehouse would sell???call for 400 to 600 apartments
If this goes through, I will consider that the CBD has rounded the corner.
^ Sounds awesome. Forest City does things right.
It is 4th and goal right now for downtown. Let's hope our council does not fumble this one away.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
Dallas council will not fumble this one. I think in this case the 100th time should be the charm. I can right now name a couple of people that will stand in the way just to try to make a point racism rules in Dallas and downtown is not needing to be a main focus. Then there Ranansky (not sure his spelling) but he surprises me as to which projects he supports which he does not. I know the majority of the others will be on board unless there is another force that changes their mind.
Should Dallas Council not approve this, we should take down city hall.
Or at least the massive Christmas tree.
Don't take "down" city hall, but the people in it. Then we can run it!
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
DallasMetropolis for Dallas mayor(s). And city council. And city manager.
I call being mayor!!! =)
^ Sounds like what we've said about all the other developers. Then it gets reeeeally quiet....
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don't recall any developers getting this far or close.
I agree. Let's hope the council goes through with this one.
What's intersting, and I could be very wrong about this; but from observation many on the city council have been on there for years some 20 plus years. One of my good friends said politicians are just unusal people, they have no touch with the real world, especially after being in office for so long. Does not matter what side of the fence you are on.
I would have to agree with that. That being why we see such extremist remarks in politics like the previous statement of a couple council members regarding the downtown development organization. Granted it comes from good intentions, while ignoring progress that has been made.
When its all said and done they will approve this. Hopefully the clocktower renovation will be in the plan, but not the make it or break point as it lended itself to in the past deal.
Actually, some of the council member's delusion could be the building's fault.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
St-T, haven't you learned anything on this forumThe City Manager is where it's at. Therefore, I call being City Manager, and my first order of business is to locate funds to put all the homeless to work fixing potholes in the city. There . . . two problems solved at one time.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
True, but when Dallas becomes a strong mayor city I get all the power! But, I'll hire you as my city mgr cuz I like your idea about the homeless!
Thanks. And I promise to use the funds you saved the city (by not going through an expensive consulting firm to select a new city manager) for other practical problem solving.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
BRILLIANT!...and my first order of business is to locate funds to put all the homeless to work fixing potholes in the city. There . . . two problems solved at one time.
Blast this connection.
Last edited by freewaytincan; 20 November 2004 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Well crap.
I've found that to be generally true for most political offices. It's that telltale disconnect they seem to get after sometimes a matter of months.
Speaking of, what are the times stuck on each of the faces? I can't remember.
I wonder if they're going to make it forecast the weather again too.. I always thought that'd be neat to watch.
[ xvisionx.com 13 - my photo gallery + journal ] - be sure to check out my new interactive downtown dallas picture map.
That used to be the thing to do with the tops of significant buildings. The best example is probably the Gulf Building in Pittsburgh.
If you're going to go to bed, just do it, don't hang around here or you'll never be able to get offline.
All or Nothing? Just one Merc building needs to be saved
07:46 PM CST on Sunday, November 28, 2004
OK, class, here's a little Dallas history pop quiz: Is the Mercantile Bank Building historic?
You answered yes? Very good.
Too bad it's a trick question. The trick is that "the Merc" is actually four structures, built from 1942 to 1972. And in a curious twist of preservation logic, none of them is likely to survive unless the National Park Service abandons its contention that all four are historic and must be preserved in any renovation.
[Click image for a larger version] [FILE 2001]
FILE 2001
Here's the history and the math: When banker (and later mayor) Robert L. Thornton built the original 31-story tower during World War II, it was the tallest building in Texas. Many of the decisions that shaped modern Dallas were made within its walls.
Additions in 1949, 1958 and 1972 brought the square footage to just more than 1 million. It's been vacant for more than a decade and has thwarted at least three developers' plans to turn it into some combination of residential units, retail space, offices and showrooms. Each proposal called for demolishing one or more of the newer buildings to improve views from the original tower and to bring the square footage in line with the demand for downtown space. Real estate experts agree that 1 million square feet is more than the market will bear.
A year or so ago, Forest City Enterprises of Cleveland, one of the nation's leading redevelopers of historic properties, began negotiations to buy the complex. It's on the tax rolls for nearly $5 million, but only $166,000 of that is the buildings; the rest is the land. In purely economic terms, the Merc is wrecking-ball fodder.
That's why the federal government gives tax credits of up to 20 percent to developers who rehabilitate historic buildings like the Merc. And that's where the Park Service comes in: Its job is to see that applicants follow the rules ? and, in this instance, whether the rules apply to one building or four.
Mayor Laura Miller is on the case; soon she'll be heading to Washington to explain to the Park Service that only the tower is historic. Let's hope the preservation bureaucrats understand that much math: Even one is more than zero.
THE MERC: A TALE OF FOUR BUILDINGS
1. Built in 1942, 31 stories (clock tower added later), building value $14,370
2. Built in 1949, 16 stories, building value $8,530
3. Built in 1958, 20 stories, building value $138,810
4. Built in 1972, 5 stories, building value $4,650
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