Reply With QuoteI saw that in the magazine and meant to post it. I think those are good "outside of the box thinking" ideas.
Five Great Ideas for Dallas
Five Great Ideas for Dallas (from D Magazine):
Some we borrowed, some we stole, and one we came up with by ourselves. From building an airport in South Dallas to a minor league baseball team to creating a red-light district (seriously), these are five ideas that can make Dallas better.
ONE: Build Another Airport
DFW Airport has long been the area’s economic engine, and a $2.6 billion investment in its infrastructure will make sure it runs smoothly well into the future. But as the population of Dallas-Fort Worth continues to grow during the next few decades, one international airport isn’t going to be enough. Like London and Paris, Dallas needs two. (Love Field lacks the acreage to be a viable option.)
Renowned urban planner Antonio Di Mambro noted as much about three years ago and suggested the creation of a regional air transportation authority or commission. He also proposed that an airport be built in an area west of Waxahachie, between interstates 35E and 35W. Right theory, wrong location. The new airport must not only spur growth in South Dallas, but it also must be easily accessed from the Telecom Corridor. We suggest southeast Dallas. —Adam McGill
TWO: Start a Minor League Baseball Team
Wouldn’t it be nice to sit in a cozy little baseball stadium on a hot night in Dallas, enjoying a cold beer and a hot dog, the Dallas skyline shimmering in the background, and not have to drop a few hundred bucks to do it? Carl Bell wants to make it happen.
In Fort Worth, Bell spent $8 million of his own money to rebuild LaGrave Field for his Fort Worth Cats, a minor league team. Last summer, the team drew about 3,700 fans per game and turned a healthy profit, and Fort Worth has already seen a revitalization in the neighborhood around the ballpark. The Frisco RoughRiders also have done well, drawing more than 9,000 a game. Bell, who owns the territorial rights for a Dallas franchise in the 10-team independent Central Baseball League, believes it would work here, too.
He figures he can build a 7,000-seat ballpark in Dallas for $10 million to $15 million, with public and private funds, near Reunion Arena or possibly Fair Park. A ballpark in Oak Cliff might also pay dividends. —Dan McGraw
THREE: Cover Woodall Rogers
Woodall Rogers has always been an eyesore that we’ve tolerated. But now that the lovely, serene Nasher Sculpture Center has opened, something must be done.
Put a lid on it.
In 1994, Gail Thomas of the Dallas Institute commissioned architects Phil Tabb and Robert Armann to devise a plan called the Dallas Urban Village. The plan included covering Woodall Rogers between Pearl and Akard streets, providing an aesthetically pleasing public space.
John Glad, a self-described urban pragmatist, came up with a master plan of his own. His version of a covered Woodall Rogers is between Pearl and Harwood, and it bridges downtown Dallas with the Crescent. He calls his scheme the One Sky Center, and he likens it to Paris’ Champs-Elyseés. There would be a plaza level for dense commercial development; beneath that, there would be parking and stores and the like; and then, beneath that, Woodall Rogers traffic.
Be it park or plaza, we’re in favor of any alternative to the noise that emanates from the concrete corridor. —A.M.
FOUR: Save Samuell Farm
When Dr. W.W. Samuell deeded 340 acres of land to the City of Dallas for park use in 1937, he hoped that the working farm east of town, off Highway 80, would be used for the recreation and education of urban youths, especially underprivileged ones. In recent years, however, a stressed city budget has forced the city to shut down the dilapidating farm and consider alternatives, such as the City of Mesquite’s plan to turn part of the land into soccer fields. We doubt that soccer was what Samuell had in mind.
We like Hugh Brooks’ idea. Brooks is an idealistic attorney and founder and president of Friends of the Farm, a nonprofit organization whose proposal would revitalize the property and put it to the intended use of its donor. By building a top-notch private equestrian center on a choice slice of the land, Brooks figures the entire park and farm can be funded and sustained without taxpayer money.
The upgraded Samuell Farm would have it all: trophy fishing ponds, bird watching, small herds of longhorn and buffalo, a dairy, a renovation of Samuell’s farmhouse, nature walks, and more. Much more than soccer. —Christina Rees
FIVE: Create a Red-light District
It seems every day brings us another news story about homeowners protesting the relocation of a topless bar to their neighborhood (see PT’s Gentleman’s Club and Club Silk). But someone must want the bars; otherwise they wouldn’t be so profitable. And owners have no choice but to seek new locations because the city code forbids “sexually oriented businesses” from operating within 1,000 feet of each other.
We say change the code. Cluster the topless bars in a red-light district. We suggest a stretch of Northwest Highway in West Dallas, beyond Bachman and near Irving. It’s accessible by I-35, there isn’t a residential neighborhood for nearly a mile, and several premier strip clubs already inhabit the tract, including the Lodge, Baby Dolls, and the Men’s Club.
We’ve had one before. Frogtown was in the West End in the late 1800s and kept many of the city’s bordellos and burlesques concentrated and removed from citizens’ day-to-day lives. It failed due to general lawlessness, but a new district would be regulated by City Hall. —Troy Slonecker
I saw that in the magazine and meant to post it. I think those are good "outside of the box thinking" ideas.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
I'm going to be hugely outvoted here. But no to #5. I like to legislate morality.I'm not going to argue the point. Its like arguing over whether smoking should be legal in restaraunts in Dallas. If that's illegal, then brothels.......
Otherwise the rest are good. I still think covering I35 by downtown is a good idea too.
I agree with all of them. They make so much sense, you wonder why they haven't been done already.
And you're right Mikedsjr - you would be outvoted.
absolutely to ALL of them. It's like no one wants the pervs in their city anymore. But it's those areas that make a place interesting. Trust me, very few people go to Amseterdam for the wooden shoes or to Las Vegas for the cactii.
Don't we already have red light districts? There's Bachman Lake area for the straights, and Oaklawn for the queers.
That's the problem.
People want to take Bachman Lake back. The strippers and hoes aren't using it.
-----Suggestion #5: not so much thinking outside the box, rather, thinking about the box.I saw that in the magazine and meant to post it. I think those are good "outside of the box thinking" ideas.
About a new airport, isnt there plenty of expansion room at DFW, or is it more of an air traffic issue? I would love a minor league ball park worked into the design of the Trinity River Park in DTD.
Anyone ever read "Big D- Triumphs and Troubles of an American SuperCity in the 20th century" by Darwin Payne? We already tried a red light district in the early part of the last century- didn't work in Frogtown then. What has changed so much that it can work now? Insanity is doing the same things over and expecting different results..........
As far as a new airport, we already have Red Bird, er I mean "Dallas Executive Airport" in the southern sector. I say, invest in what we got before we go building new of the same. Besides, southeast Dalas doesn't have room for an airport unless you consider razing the Great Trinity Forest. Southeast Dallas needs a grocery store.
And will someone please explain to me why it's such a great idea to put a lid on Woodall Rogers? I can't make my brain see it for some reason, all I visualize is a big ugly box that we'll have to look at.
I'm suspicious about a park on top of Woodall Rogers, too. There wouldnt be much shade - how big can a tree grow there? It could be inconvenient for pedistrians to cross 3-4 lanes of frontage road to get to the parks.
It would be much prettier viewing from a high rise, or in aerial photos, though, even if not so heavily used. Rather than pnly parks, perhaps a transit station could be built on the decks.
These scenes are on a lid:
...built over an Interstate:
A transit station on a Woodall lid would be pretty interesting also!
I also think DiMambrio (sp-check) may have been conjecturing about a second massive INTERNATIONAL airport to be a catalyst of balanced regional growth in the south. I haven't read the .pdf file in quite some time.
Yeah, I see the lid as a great idea.... Trees can adapt, and there are certain kinds whose roots end to go out, rather than straight down, which would work well. A transit station worked in would be very cool... perhaps some kind of "signature" trolley station. If worse came to worse, take a lane of of traffic for a huge sidewalk. But as it is, I don't think it would prevent pedestrian traffic so much. Most roads downtown are bigger than those, what, three or four lane one-way access roads... And with the Nasher and DMA right there, I really can't see any problems with getting people to use it.
Oh I forgot to add earlier - the airport 'idea' is envisioned in the area south of Mansfield-Far So. Grand Prairie and beyond. Another county-straddle.
Ok, found that old vision-rendering that shows the general idea of where ADM proposes an Int'l airport - that I think he stated should be sought in around 20 years -ish:
What are the red-thingys?
That's not in "southeast" Dallas??? That's not even in Dallas County!
I'm sure Adam wasn't suggesting 'paving (Forest) paradise' in southeast Dallas. He may have been referring to SE Dal. County (- but, can't really speak for him either!)
As far as DiMambro's suggestion, he never mentioned southeast Dallas (city or county.) It is as you see above - and what Adam state's isn't the best location (his opinion.)
WOW!!!!
those are some of the most beautiful inner city pics i've seen involving roadways! i'm sure if the city puts it's mind to it, we could easily have something like that here! can you imagine the impact that would have on the area! i just can't believe they don't put this right up on the top of their list.
yeah, the deck over woodall would work well. Phoenix has done it, and in a city that can hardly grow nice trees, they've been successful growing a variety of vegetation over the freeway... also, i like the idea of expanding "redbird" airport, if it's possible.
Trinity River Zoo
Here's my Trinity River plan:
Make it an annex of the Dallas Zoo, and let some of the animals roam free down there for a while...
Pardon my crappy photoshop job...
very very very interesting!
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
texcolo wins.
Game over.
You wouldn't believe how many times I've thought off-the-wall things like that ever since my uncle took me to the opening of 'Wilds of Africa' at The Zoo.
My god, would that be awesome!! (the Trinity zoo)
Last edited by jsoto3; 09 January 2004 at 01:27 AM.
Amazing. I love it! Is that even possible? If so, it would be incredible. Anyone know the heights and restrictions for a deck? Wow! I had been thinking about ths for so long, but thought that it would be structurally impossible!His version of a covered Woodall Rogers is between Pearl and Harwood, and it bridges downtown Dallas with the Crescent. He calls his scheme the One Sky Center, and he likens it to Paris’ Champs-Elyseés. There would be a plaza level for dense commercial development; beneath that, there would be parking and stores and the like; and then, beneath that, Woodall Rogers traffic.
By the way, love the Seattle pics. Never seen any closeups of the Freeway Park.
It works in Amsterdam...Originally posted by trolleygirl
Anyone ever read "Big D- Triumphs and Troubles of an American SuperCity in the 20th century" by Darwin Payne? We already tried a red light district in the early part of the last century- didn't work in Frogtown then. What has changed so much that it can work now? Insanity is doing the same things over and expecting different results..........
As far as a new airport, we already have Red Bird, er I mean "Dallas Executive Airport" in the southern sector. I say, invest in what we got before we go building new of the same. Besides, southeast Dalas doesn't have room for an airport unless you consider razing the Great Trinity Forest. Southeast Dallas needs a grocery store.
And will someone please explain to me why it's such a great idea to put a lid on Woodall Rogers? I can't make my brain see it for some reason, all I visualize is a big ugly box that we'll have to look at.
Seeing the tree-on-a-deck growing success from other places makes it easier to renew excitement about Woodall Rogers. Rows of magnolias would be great. In a way, I kinda think the Magnolia would be a good signature tree for Dallas public parks, and public gardens; just like I think Art Deco design and fascades would be a better calling card for notable buildings in town (rather than argon piping and glowing corporate logos).
One thing, though, I hope the Park/Recreation people responsible for (re)planting trees in whatever becomes of the Trinity River park have a selection of trees prepurchased and growing in a barrel; when in ten years it's time to transplant trees in Trinity Park (and above downtown freeways), we'll get some trees beyond their sapling years.
I think it could be a very good idea, if the marketplace would support it, to have an international only airport. Is that taking security too far, hopefully terrorist threat will not be a major factor in building big airports in 20 years.
Now that would be EXCELLENT.Originally posted by texcolo
Here's my Trinity River plan:
Make it an annex of the Dallas Zoo, and let some of the animals roam free down there for a while...
Pardon my crappy photoshop job...
Maybe during the spring when it would flood, we could just let the animals loose in the city and return them back to the Trinity when summer comes.That's thinking outside the box. My thinking inside a looney farm, but its outside the box.
I think the zoo could manage a herd of buffalo roaming all the way to Lake Lewisville. Maybe the wetlands (with a large lake) would attract wintering Bald Eagles.
Yes, and it was an extremely good read.Originally posted by trolleygirl
Anyone ever read "Big D- Triumphs and Troubles of an American SuperCity in the 20th century" by Darwin Payne?
Regarding facades and looks, I love the idea of magnolias being around. That, and live oaks. Also, a decent tree is the honey locust, looks nice in the right settings. Art Deco has got to be the look for dallas, that with a slightly updated touch (because monumentalism surely won't work), and some elements of modern, which we already have. I don't have a problem with some glass and green piping, but I definitely agree that many of Dallas' buildings leave a great deal to be desired.
w/ all of those animals roaming about, we couldn't play in the park...
I like the idea, though!
I think Bald Eagles would need bluffs, wouldn't they? Or is that neccesary. I know there is a place south of Dallas that Eagles fly too.
What about American Alligators? Would the wetlands be big enough?
True, but what a spectacle that could be. Now that would be a way to have a zoo. Watch the lions catch their prey like a zebra. Would truly make for good photography.Originally posted by dallastophoenix
w/ all of those animals roaming about, we couldn't play in the park...
yeah, i guess it would be a good view from our car, as we speed by on the levee tollways... lol...
Bald Eagles are very opportunistic, and will roost in any suitable setting. Big trees are as suitable as a cliff. Hum, what about Oak Cliff National Park, home of DFW's breeding population of Bald Eagles. In all probability, the eagles might never tolerate the human activity of central Dallas county, but with the forest SE of downtown and other large tracts of wildlife friendly land, it's possible. In Texas, Aransas Wildlife Refuge (Whooping Crane fame) and fluvial areas near the mouth of the Brazos River have been always maintaned breeding populations of these eagles - outside of the Trans Pecos region, of course. Human tolerant falcons and hawks would do a good job keeping the national bird out.
I would love to read (if the exist yet) field studies of the 'Great Trinity Forest'. This area probably sustains a healthy food chain, with bobcats as the top preditor. Aligators could be difficult to control in a marsh area. The reptiles currently live quietly in parts of S. Dallas county.
Here's a crazy idea. How about in Fair Park, or somewhere near or in downtown the Park department, or something more private were to build a couple of ski slopes. It wouldn't be on fresh powder of course, but it would be a great visual of people skiing with downtown in the background.
holy sh*t! The deck could be built!!
FIVE - scratch that - FOUR GREAT IDEAS FOR DALLAS
In January we published a story called "Five Great Ideas for Dallas." One down, four to go. Just had lunch with a high-level city-type person who said that the wheels were in motion to cover Woodall Rogers. The Crescent's John Zogg gave a presentation on it just last week, in fact. Guys from TxDot were there and everything. Ballpark figures: the project would take two years and cost $50 million. About $15 million would be private, the city would have to cough up about the same, and federal funds could take care of the rest. Let's get moving, Dallas.
Adam McGill · 01:24 PM
Excellent news! Go Dallas!
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
Wow, awesome news!
What does The Crescent have to do with this? Are they chipping in some money?
Good question CC. I can only imagine they have invested in land near there....prices and demand may go up??
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
I would assume the Crescent was paying for part of it, since it was they who suggested $15 million in private funds. (It's not the Governor's household, that's for sure). How far will the cover go?
Maybe we can cover the rail lines too and pretend they're subways.
John Zogg is a CDA board member and is heavily influential downtown.
I just realized I had missed this comment, sorry to take it back so far, but...Originally posted by evdallas
It works in Amsterdam...
In Amsterdam, they lack these little things we call "morals" and "values". They seem rather quaint, but without them, you get Hell on earth, kind of like...Amsterdam. Behind all that density and charming buildings, there's an ugly side, and we don't need that, I promise.
True. I do disagree with legislation of morality; however, brothels and strip clubs, although they may or may not be wrong per se, do promote crime. And crime, assuming the government retains its monopoly on law, is a bad thing. God knows Dallas needs no more of it. If we've got a red-light district, soon we will be 'Dallas: The Place Where You get Shot'.
Foucault, what kind of crime does it promote and can you find concrete evidence to support this claim?Originally posted by Foucault
True. I do disagree with legislation of morality; however, brothels and strip clubs, although they may or may not be wrong per se, do promote crime.
“We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”
I'm not sure if it promotes crime, but nobody wants them in or even remotely close to their neighboorhoods, which lends them to be built in or around Industrial areas and Industrial areas where there is usally less people walking around or even less lit areas. These areas usually are breeding areas for crime.
That is why they appear to breed crime. No one wants them in safer neighboorhood areas and thus there is no other choice but place them in more dangerous areas where no one cares if they are there. And I'm almost 100% confident that if your criminal minded, you probably are a whoremonger too. So Crime and Sexual businesses go hand in hand.
Except that it doesn't work the other way around. I know a terrific number of nice single guys in their 20s, who you'd probably consider "moral" if you knew them, that have been known to visit a strip club from time to time. I have. It's a nice relief, takes your mind off of worries for a little bit.
and Urban, I'm guessing you've never been to Amsterdam. Had you been, I don't see how you could criticize it. For Dallas to ever be half of what Amsterdam is would be a great achievement. Just because they accept the sexual nature of mankind doesn't mean they lack "morals" and "values." Personally, I think it shows a greater lack of "morals" and "values" to go to war or execute people than to allow people to go out and have some fun.
Regulation is not a bad thing for sexually oriented businesses. Forcing them to be clean and operate with certain levels of security would be greatly beneficial to both he businesses and everyone/thing around them. Treating them more like the clubs in Deep Ellum, requiring police etc., might help curb the crime problem.
mikedsjr, do you think that if there were a section of the city, perhaps not quite as grimy as the industrial areas they currently inhabit -- do you think that would reduce crime around them? I see them being spread out over Dallas as a greater problem to people with moral objections to the institutions than having them all in one, centralized location.
State Attorney Mark Ober has further ratcheted up the community attack on street crime by filing a civil injunction against individuals and corporations involved with the four strip clubs that Tampa police raided last month.
During Christmas week, police arrested six managers at four clubs and charged them with aiding and abetting prostitution. They also charged five of the defendants with racketeering. Police have made more than 30 prostitution arrests in the clubs in 16 months, making the first-degree felony charge possible.
...
The lawsuit accuses the clubs of being a public nuisance and says the defendants willfully allowed illegal activities.
From The Tampa Tribune, Jan. 10, 2004
And a shorter quote from the Chicago Sun-Times (2003):
Many of Harvey's factories are closed, and its showcase mall has been long abandoned.
Skin is now big business in the economically depressed south suburb.
The residents at Bachman Lake have made it very clear they want the strip clubs to go. If you put them in another industrial district where 'no-one cares', the factories might move elsewhere.
From staff writers at the San Diego Union-Tribune, May 17, 2003:
Grand jurors who must decide whether to indict San Diego City Council members and others on bribery, extortion and conspiracy charges began hearing prosecution evidence yesterday, including testimony from City Councilman Jim Madaffer and two City Hall staffers.
...
The secret grand jury proceedings came two days after the FBI and San Diego police served search warrants at the offices of Councilmen Ralph Inzunza, Charles Lewis and Michael Zucchet and at strip clubs in San Diego and Las Vegas owned by Michael Galardi.
According to the warrant, the FBI here is investigating a number of possible crimes, including bribery of a City Council member, bribery of a police officer, wire fraud, extortion, conspiracy and interstate travel to aid in racketeering.
...
"This is like, big stuff in San Diego!" Madaffer said. "For me it's all surreal . . . To see their three faces in the paper, I can only imagine how that must feel. My heart goes out to them.
[The Columbus Dispatch], February 2003:
Columbus police are preparing to scrutinize the level of crime at the city's strip clubs after two shooting deaths in a 13-month period and a recent brawl involving a National Hockey League player.
"We want to see if this is a trend and what the proper response should be," said Cmdr. Paul Denton, chief of detectives...he said strip clubs -- even the most upscale variety -- sometimes become hangouts for members of criminal gangs. When rival gang members arrive, confrontations frequently lead to violence in the parking lot. In the Dockside Dolls incident, a South Side gang leader fired at a man who allegedly stabbed his brother. A bystander was killed.
Residents are upset about the concentration of such businesses in their neighborhood.
Lapdance clubs 'a foothold for gangs'
Stephen O'Brien, Irish Political Correspondent
April 13, 2003, Sunday Times, London
THE government is examining ways of closing down lap-dancing clubs. According to Michael McDowell, many such establishments operate as covers for brothels.
The justice minister, who believes the proliferation of lap-dancing clubs will lead to increased prostitution, has met Pat Byrne, the garda commissioner, to discuss a crackdown. McDowell and Byrne are concerned that organised crime gangs from eastern Europe and the Balkans are behind some clubs, supplying women to work in the businesses while running drugs and weapons into the country.
...
"I don't mind exotic dancing," the minister said. "I'm as partial to exotic dancing as anybody else. But a considerable number of these lap-dancing clubs are just the front window of a brothel. The women in the brothel are typically eastern European whose identity papers have been taken from them and who face having their face slashed if they don't keep going. So it's a very ugly business.
"I have indicated to the commissioner, and he agrees with me, that if you allow lap-dancing clubs to proliferate in Irish society, you are, in fact, allowing brothels to proliferate. You are allowing a sophisticated sex industry into Ireland, and the people behind that sex industry will be organised crime."
The minister is concerned at police intelligence suggesting eastern European and Balkan crime gangs are now actively targeting Ireland to cash in on the country's increased prosperity. The gangs trade in refugees to work as black-market agricultural workers, lap-dancers, and bouncers at night clubs who become involved in drugs trading.
Last edited by Foucault; 13 February 2004 at 11:46 AM.
Double post
Vegas - where prostitution is allowed - has a much (much!) lower crime rate than dallas... the dallas police need to spend their time in areas where people are getting mugged and raped - not in legal establishments where guys are simply paying for a lap dance... I share Tim's sentiments below:
From D's Frontburner:
HOLD THE DAMN FORT
This report about the brutal sexual assault in Uptown reads: "They [police] say the Mckinney Avenue area is extremely safe even when compared to... Lower Greenville and Deep Ellum." Huh. Shouldn't the word "even" be changed to "especially"? And shouldn't we be a little pissed off that the police are acting as though Uptown has always been safe and thus will remain safe? If crime rates are spiking all over town, why wouldn't Uptown be the next hot spot for attacks, especially if cops are complacent about the area? All those pretty yuppies are wandering around loaded on booze and loaded with cash and cash cards and keys to their BMWs. Fish in a barrel.
-Christina Rees
RE: THE FORT
Christina, you're missing the point. That woman who got brutally beaten and raped in Uptown should not concern us. What's important is that somewhere out there tonight, a man will slip a $5 bill into a stripper's G-string. Or a $1 bill. And that's gotta stop.
-Tim Rogers
Basically, your saying developing a red-light district specifically for this use. It would still be near by a industrial district, but developers could make the area well lit at night. I'm not sure if it would reduce crime considerably but it probably would reduce crime in these areas. Since i have never gone to a strip bar, I really have no clue the typical clientel and the workers of these places.Originally posted by bloodandpopcorn
mikedsjr, do you think that if there were a section of the city, perhaps not quite as grimy as the industrial areas they currently inhabit -- do you think that would reduce crime around them? I see them being spread out over Dallas as a greater problem to people with moral objections to the institutions than having them all in one, centralized location.
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