I never really cared for the design of the project anyway. Something else WILL come along. The location is too good for it not to.
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
The best location would probably be at a new station where the curve is gonna be straightened out. Probably better than Pearl even. The current CityLights location will probably be another Live Oak lofts or at most something like the Bryson. If this is to be on the east side, The Baylor Station(because of the duel draw of the train and hospital, available land and future/current proximate residents) is probably the better site.
What about other new development in the general "bryan place/upper east side" area.
I was driving around and saw quite a bit of new housing going in around excall park and on live oak, plus several fields cleared looking like construction going in soon.
However the area will never be as good until some shops, restaurants (other than jack in the box) go in....
Baylor has some big plans under wrap -- anyone know the details?
YupOriginally Posted by clipper
That's not a possibility, unfortunately. I asked about a station in the straightened-out portion of the tracks, and there's just not enough room between the Routh St. crossing and the point where the tracks plunge into the tunnel. DART's constraints on station location are 400' of straight track with a max 1% grade, if I recall correctly -- the grade restriction may mean that a Flora St./Arts District subway station isn't possible, either. In fact, the newly redesigned tracks in the area will tend to separate City Lights from the Plaza of the Americas area because of the large "Y". See the DART, City to rework Central/Bryan thread for details.
Just to be very clear, the Deep Ellum station's location is at the current intersection of Swiss St. and Good-Latimer, in the G-L median. Swiss St will no longer cross G-L. The tunnel will be filled in (there's a Zoning Change sign at the north entrance), but the station won't be "on" the old tunnel -- it'll be just to the north. Where there's now a tunnel will be the new intersection of Good-Latimer and Gaston Ave. My biggest question is whether Good Records will have to relocate.
As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals... Those ideals still light the world, and we will not give them up for expedience's sake. - B. Obama 1/20/09
Somebody, ANYBODY build a supermarket over there. You can't even park the Wal-Mart market at 75 & Hall anymore after 5PM.
Yea- it's weird... The parking lost is always jammed pack- yet I never feel crowded when I walk inside. I mean there are plenty of people inside- but just don't get the cramped feel like I do at Albertson's...
I get the feeling that it is a grocer that held this deal up. Why would someone back away from this? There seems to be a lot of potential for a lot of money in that area. With a rail station a virtual certainty, I just can't fathom why a Kroger, Albertons, HEB would not jump at this chance. Bummer.
Maybe they don't want to compete with Walmart?
Dallas uber alles
They announced today that the Tom Thumb on Cedar Springs will close. I guess the in-town grocery market ain't so hot afterall. No wonder Kroger decided not to go at this project on Live Oak.
^ Ummm...Have you been to that Tom Thumb? Its usually not that busy. Kroger across the street stays real busy as well as Albertson's, Walmart, etc. The management at that Tom Thumb has really let it go downhill in the past year. I have been shopping there for the past 3 yrs, mostly because of the discount on gas.
Can make it into a big bar I guess.
Tom Fist
Dallas uber alles
When is it supposed to close? That's a lot of real estate to sit vacant. It'll be interesting to see what happens with it. Maybe condos with retail on the first floor? It would be nice if there was something that extended the short strip of entertainment/shopping options along that stretch.
Tom Thumb (run down and always dirty) is directly across the street from a Kroger that caters more to the affluent demographic of the neighborhood. The Tom Thumb generally catered to the poorer demographic (with screaming children in tow). I've always wondered how it could stay open.
The screaming children will probably be leaving as the old apartments behind there are torn down.
At one time, Tom Thumb had smaller stores on Mockingbird at Central, Knox at Central, Turtle Creek Village and Cedar Springs -- now they will all be gone..
Sad what has happened to Tom Thumb....
OMG, LMAO!
So true. They used to be such a great store. When I first moved down here to Mountain Creek they opened a new TT store, had a great produce department and then within months Safeway took over and the produce department literally disappeared. What looked like a farmers market turned into flourescent light heaven.
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Funny, my friends called that store Nancy's Thumb.
^The Tom Thumb on Cedar Springs was just too small to compete. I don't go in there because I hate to stand in the lines and the product selection is poor. Safeway has never understood this market and they're running an old Dallas business into the ground.
Then there's the rumors about Albertson's leaving too. I don't want to shop at Walmart!
HEB where are you? HELP!!!!!
^I hate that friggin Wal-Mart.
October 17- October 30, 2005
This newsletter is brought to you by Central Dallas Association and Downtown Improvement District
http://www.downtowndallas.com/current.htm#ntcar
".....The audience of real estate professionals was also updated on the Trinity River Project, whose first Calatrava bridge will break ground by the end of this year, and the Woodall Rodgers Park, a 5.3 acre park to be developed over Woodall Rodgers Freeway to link Uptown and Downtown Dallas. Mr. Silverman discussed the City Lights project slated at Live Oak and Good Latimer, and the revised plan for 750 residential units and 150,000 square feet of retail...."
750 is a hell of a lot of residential for that site. They must be going vertical. . .in a BIG way!
A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something. - Plato
Actually it will be easy to get that many apartments or condos in a mid-rise building with retail underneath it. The JPI projects together in Bryan Place probably have near to that many units.
That's certainly encouraging that the 'revised' plan is still a large scale project - does anyone know of a way that we could get more info on what they actually said in the discussion?
150,000 square feet of retail is only 10,000 less than what I'd heard before - and it seems like a lot more residential space than previously thought.
So the original plan called for 160,000 retail? Whoah, we could still see some big-box retailers, cool.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
Actually the original design was for 624,309sq ft broken down as:
516,817 sf (Retail)
12,000 sf (Restaurant)
40,000 sf (Office on 4 levels)
61,500 sf (Theatre 2,800 seats)
So they have drastically reduced the commercial portion of this project. I would assume the 150,000 will be the first floor only since that was what they were planning before. Here is the link if you want to see the plans for the old design:
http://www.obrienarch.com/images/XMLPortfolio/9.pdf
Darn...
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
I guess I was mistaken. 1st floor primarily was what the man I spoke to at UCR said - sounds about right.
Did last nights Bryan place home owners assocication meeting have anything to say about this project?
I see that in the last few days, they have put up chain-link fences around the entire project....
Its at least a start for starting the project....
Got some 2nd hand info from the Bryan Place Neighborhood Assoc. meeting last week. Seems like the developer had Home Depot and a grocery back out (due to Wal-Mart) and that is why they are re-thinking the plans to have more residential and less retail. However, they are still looking for a TIF for the project which Angela Hunt will not support (and I wholeheartedly agree with her) with it being a predominantly residential project. The BPNA also withdrew their support of the project because they mainly supported it for the prospect of retail. I think that was it in a nutshell.
As predicted by me.Seems like the developer had Home Depot and a grocery back out (due to Wal-Mart)
Dallas uber alles
I'm not sure losing Home Depot and Wal*Mart is such a disaster. The welcome mat is out up in LH, however!
I know a Lowe's or Home Depot would do great business anywhere close-in, as there are none. They are really missing the boat. Perhaps Gaston and Garland Road would be a good location...oy, did I say that?
I love my mom-and-pop hardware and plant dealers...I love my mom-and- pop hardware and plant dealers...
I don't see why Home Depot would back out because of Wal-Mart...a grocery Wal-Mart for that matter..
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
I think he meant just the grocery backed out because of the Wal-Mart.
Dallas uber alles
Forgive my naivete on this (I'm quite new to all of this) but I've got a bunch of questions on this... What is a TIF? Is Angela Hunt's support necessary? And lastly, what does BPNA stand for?
BPNA= Bryan Place Neighborhood Assoc.
Somethings ya just can't change.
Sorry...A TIF (tax increment financing) is a tax reinvestment zone, basically asking the city to help subsidize the project through tax abatements. I do not think that Angela Hunt is absoloutely essential, but since it is in her district, I am sure her opinion will carry a lot of the weight...BPNA is the Bryan Place Neighborhood Association. I don't think their support really matters too much, but they might make some noise if it turns out to be a residential project...especially if they close off Texas and Bryan Street as propsed.
This is very disappointing. The developer could at least lure a Marshall's of some sort to get the project going. I hope it changes.
Thanks - all that makes sense now.
I found a flyer in the elevator today suggesting that calling or emailing Target and letting them know that everyone wants a Target grocery store put in might get Target to jump onboard and get the City Lights project rolling. While personally I'd rather it not have a Super Target or a Home Depot at all and have it be more of a West Village / Mockingbird Station type hang out with restaurants, smaller shops, and maybe a movie theater, I'd be for anything that gets the project to actually happen. So I figured I'd post the flyer here incase anyone else wanted to give Target a call or send them an email.
If you're the author of this feel free to take full credit - I hope it was okay for me to post it here:
-------------------------------------
How about a TARGET grocery?
If you want to see CITY LIGHTS go in across the street, then we need to convince a grocery store to move in. If they don't, then nothing happens at Live Oak St!!!
Go to the Target Website and select CONTACT US. Tell them you want a store in the development called CITY LIGHTS.
Target Groceries is the only company that can compete with WalMart Neighborhood.
Do us all a favor and let them know how much you want them!!!
------------------------------------
While I'm not sure that a large grocery store is mandatory given what the UCR people told me about revising the plan to be more slanted towards residential, it certainly wouldn't hurt to try to get things moving.
I don't see a Target Grocery Division... Maybe I'm missing it!
Somethings ya just can't change.
Target does do a great job on their urban stores. I would love to see it, but have they even expressed intrest?
Here a photo of one in Chicago.
"And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed."-"Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times Editorial, October 30, 1963
It would probably just have to be a Super-Target. I'm not aware of any grocery-only Target stores.
^^ Ahh.. I gotcha! Ill put my word in! But with a target just right up the road at Cityplace, wouldnt they be too close to each other to justify another store?
Somethings ya just can't change.
I have a feeling that entire retail strip (w/Target) be gone in a couple years. How about an East Village? I dont remember who posted the picutres, but Haskell has become a very nice tree lined boulevard. It would make a very nice approach street for a couple thousand highrise residents, and provide a very nice view from a restaurant patio....
Fiesta Grocery store might fit the City Lights neighborhood. Is it possible for a new urbanist, transit oriented, mixed use development with a Latino flavor? Now, that's what I'd like to see happen in Oak Cliff - like Jefferson St - but the Latino Cultural Center across the street sets a more upscale tone, and would tap into the unnoticed billions of Dallas Latino spending dollars.
That was my first thought when I saw the flyer in the elevator. But then again, there are two Targets a few blocks apart up on Skillman.
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