Deep Ellum: Neighborhood in Transition

[CasperITL]

Two notes:

-TxDOT approved the dirt jump park under the freeway. Construction will start soon on some jumps, pump track etc. That will be exciting.

-Deep Ellum Brewing now does saturday tours of their brewery at 2821 St Louis Street. I think they have only been giving public tours for the last month, so check it out and support them. The tour includes beer drinking. I took a tour before Christmas, cool people and good beer.

[Mena]

Q. How stupid is the proposal to open an elementary school in the building where Clearview got started?

A. Totally stupid.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfa...lift_plans.php

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfa...-22_of_bri.php

This is about as promising and beneficial to the community as a 12' wall at Belo Garden or dog owners who foul Thanks Giving Square.

Who does this???? :/ What an absolutely horrible idea.

and....this is their "sell"? Good Lord.

We believe the additional 75+ jobs that this campus alone will bring to Deep Ellum is very positive as is the fact that our teaching force tends to be young, single professionals who will want to dine and likely live in/near Deep Ellum helping contribute to the growth of the community surrounding the school. ... We are not trying to be a "thorn in the side" of the property owners of Deep Ellum but would like to work collaboratively with [property and business owners] and believe that the school will be a positive asset to the Deep Ellum community.

[dfwcre8tive]

More discussion about turning Elm & Commerce back to 2-way traffic:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfa...take_first.php

[CasperITL]

I hope they build the school. It will pave the way for my brilliant business ideas:

-Locksmithing College inside Lew Sterrett
-Skeet shotgun and high powered rifle gun range at the corner of Denton and Mockingbird
-MMA octagon death metal cage match wrastling school next door to the Genesis Women's Shelter

[Double Wide]

The only way this would work is if the city changed the 300 feet ordnance for this neighborhood because it is an are built on Bars, Night cubs and restaurants. Where is the public outcry!?!?! This should be treated the same as as if Austin wanted to put a school in DT Austin near 6th street.

[eastdallasson]

there was a pretty decent sized crowd at a meeting last night at the Deep Ellum Foundation talking with a city attorney and theresa o'donnell about what might be done to protect the character of the area. basically the area is counting on the school either not getting the parking variance that they're asking for or for getting a variance of their own allowing for new bars/music venues to open within 1,000 ft of the school in the future instead of 300 ft. Unfortunately it doesn't appear there's all that much they can do because schools are an accepted use with the right to exist in that location according to the current zoning. if you're interested, get in touch with barry annino at the deep ellum foundation.

[dfwcre8tive]

The only way this would work is if the city changed the 300 feet ordnance for this neighborhood because it is an are built on Bars, Night cubs and restaurants. Where is the public outcry!?!?! This should be treated the same as as if Austin wanted to put a school in DT Austin near 6th street.

Here's the info (and neighborhood comments) from last night's meeting:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfa...owners_are.php

[BigD5349]

That map is scary crazy... this affects the zoning of everything on Elm from Good Latimer all the way down to Cafe Brazil? Looks like it spills across to Main Street as well? Basically a football field in length in every direction, touching the boundaries of the school...

I know Deep Ellum has struggled to find its footing in recent years, but I 100% don't trust that the SUP process protects us down the road. Who knows what kind of nuts might be on the Planning Commission two years from now. I also don't mind the school itself, but I don't think we should apply these particular zoning restrictions to Deep Ellum...

Why not put it in the West End instead?

[CDallas]

Maybe Deep Ellum is truly dead and will redevelop into an alternative residential area since it now has two rail stations and a major hospital district.

[Double Wide]

^^^ nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooo^^^^^

[msutton]

^ Have you been down there recently? If it's dead, it's one hell of a fine zombie.

[CDallas]

And yet no one seems to care they are trying to put a school right in the middle of it which would kill it.

[tamtagon]

There has been no voice in City Hall for anything outside of ordinary mainstream culture. Cleaning up the undesirable is a mantra run amok. "Fringe groups" belong in the city, can only thrive in the city, and always scare the bejesus out of Good Christian family folk who do not think it's good to encourage staying up late having a party.

The city council is not serious about encouraging the "creative class" to make a home in Dallas. The city council is only serious about making decisions that are safe from the disapproval of mainstream sensibilities which perceive weirdos as a threat to society. Ironic that weirdos are the wild cards who make society. Under this directive, Dallas will never really be a leading city. The area will be full of giant corporate entities with thousands of affluent desk workers and even larger corporate retail businesses with hundreds of thousands of under-employed clerks struggling to make ends meet; a city always waiting for the next big thing to wash over the country from East Coast or West Coast population centers with creative fringe groups find new ways to uniquely interpret modern life.

The availability a 'Deep Ellum Seedy Lifestyle' simply must be protect from a sanitizing mentality promoting homogenization. Schools for children do not mix with bars and restaurants for rowdy drunk grown ups.

[CTroyMathis]

I really haven't been following this much until now. Sort-of-rhetorical-question: Why not utilize a school being shuttered? Or, why not right next to Pearl Station? Oh wait, nevermind.

[mjblazin]

A group of 20 something males that cannot get dates, do get drunk, and spill out of bars at closing time to brawl is not a creative class. Come to Cedars Open Studios and you will see a true creative class. While not being standard suburban types, they are eager to do it their way, they have mixed ages, many if not most are in stable relationships if not married, some amount of kids or relations with family with children, and are very, very disciplined about their craft. True creativity demands incredible discipline. To my knowledge Dallas is relatively friendly, at least in not getting in their way. They are very up to speed on crime measures, do not like neighborhood disturbances, have a keen appreciation for rents and property values, and are not bashful about going to court to ensure that DPD enforces the law.

To get into the creative class, you have to create something besides obnoxious behavior and noise. Just being weird, unable to fit in because of your general bent or ineptitude does not award you the gold card. Deep Ellum already went down the path a decade ago catering to those losers and nearly bought the farm in the process. Now it has another chance. If it makes the same choice again, it is done. We have other neighborhoods to work that understand what it takes to be a viable neighborhood.

[cmacemm]

A group of 20 something males that cannot get dates, do get drunk, and spill out of bars at closing time to brawl is not a creative class. Come to Cedars Open Studios and you will see a true creative class. While not being standard suburban types, they are eager to do it their way, they have mixed ages, many if not most are in stable relationships if not married, some amount of kids or relations with family with children, and are very, very disciplined about their craft. True creativity demands incredible discipline. To my knowledge Dallas is relatively friendly, at least in not getting in their way. They are very up to speed on crime measures, do not like neighborhood disturbances, have a keen appreciation for rents and property values, and are not bashful about going to court to ensure that DPD enforces the law.

To get into the creative class, you have to create something besides obnoxious behavior and noise. Just being weird, unable to fit in because of your general bent or ineptitude does not award you the gold card. Deep Ellum already went down the path a decade ago catering to those losers and nearly bought the farm in the process. Now it has another chance. If it makes the same choice again, it is done. We have other neighborhoods to work that understand what it takes to be a viable neighborhood.

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with about everything posted here.
It seems like you have the same mindset as a lot of our leaders

[TheDoubletap]

As the Doctor (my favorite one: big scarf, big hair, big smile) said, "It takes all sorts to make a galaxy."

That includes weirdos and school children.

[CasperITL]

So...I was thinking, how does First Baptist Academy's relationship in Downtown work with area bars and such? Do they have to sign off? I think there are a few places within that 300 foot zone.

[Mark Lea]

A group of 20 something males that cannot get dates, do get drunk, and spill out of bars at closing time to brawl is not a creative class. Come to Cedars Open Studios and you will see a true creative class. While not being standard suburban types, they are eager to do it their way, they have mixed ages, many if not most are in stable relationships if not married, some amount of kids or relations with family with children, and are very, very disciplined about their craft. True creativity demands incredible discipline. To my knowledge Dallas is relatively friendly, at least in not getting in their way. They are very up to speed on crime measures, do not like neighborhood disturbances, have a keen appreciation for rents and property values, and are not bashful about going to court to ensure that DPD enforces the law.

To get into the creative class, you have to create something besides obnoxious behavior and noise. Just being weird, unable to fit in because of your general bent or ineptitude does not award you the gold card. Deep Ellum already went down the path a decade ago catering to those losers and nearly bought the farm in the process. Now it has another chance. If it makes the same choice again, it is done. We have other neighborhoods to work that understand what it takes to be a viable neighborhood.

Must also disagree. I'm down there 2-3 times a week (mostly for shows). If it wasn't for DE, I probably would have moved to Austin and though you don't know me, I can assure you I do not fit the description you provided.

[mdg109]

^ I'm there every week. It's not the DE of the 90s. The pubs, bars and restaurants are really well done. It's more hipster than seedy in my opinion.

[wilme2]

I blocked out my calendar to go oppose the parking variance for the school. The board of adjustment agenda is not posted on the city website yet, but I am on the early notification list. (Unfortunately this forum errors anytime I attempt to attach a document.) Hearing is scheduled for February 14. They are always at 1pm at City Hall, but the room varies so watch for the final agenda to be posted a few days before the 14th. If they are smart, they will move this to council chambers and expect a crowd.

[BigT3x]

Amazing how the city can use every dirty trick in the book to turn Lower Greenville into a ghost town, but with this all of a sudden they're saying the school has a right to be there due to existing zoning.

[mjblazin]

Amazing how the city can use every dirty trick in the book to turn Lower Greenville into a ghost town, but with this all of a sudden they're saying the school has a right to be there due to existing zoning.

Bars and clubs are historically considered possible sources of problems and receive regulation in every jurisdiction in the country. Schools are at the opposite end of spectrum and have few rules except to protect students. Typically opening a school whether in Dallas or Kabul normally gets a tag of advancing civilization. The rules in play here are on the bars, not the schools. Schools also are normally the province, directly or indirectly as with charters, of government. While governments have to follow laws on construction, worker safety, you cannot zone out a government chartered facility. Zoning regulates private activities. You can protest, upset your alderman, or get funding cut, but cannot say it violates zoning for most activities.

[cowboyeagle05]

Amazing how the city can use every dirty trick in the book to turn Lower Greenville into a ghost town, but with this all of a sudden they're saying the school has a right to be there due to existing zoning.

Yeah there is quite a world of difference between some local bars with well documented police problems and a school teaching children to read.

Don't get me wrong I don't think this part of Deep Ellum is right for this school I think it would be better down near all the lofts at the far east side of Deep Ellum. I do think a school would be good for Deep Ellum in general if a optimal location could be found after all one the issues with Deep Ellum is that its not well rounded and a charter school near the residential end could be a great boom for the area to attract new residents that could support the localized culture there.

[Mena]

Here's the info (and neighborhood comments) from last night's meeting:

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfa...owners_are.php

Thanks for the link. Comments are definitely worth reading.

[CasperITL]

I thought the most recent decline in Deep Ellum was due to roving packs of urban youth that congregated in front of clubs or on street corners.

Sort of a long, long time ago to think that it was twenty years ago when Nirvana played in front of a smallish but rowdy crowd at Trees. October 19. 1991.

[thereandhere]

I thought the most recent decline in Deep Ellum was due to roving packs of urban youth that congregated in front of clubs or on street corners.

Sort of a long, long time ago to think that it was twenty years ago when Nirvana played in front of a smallish but rowdy crowd at Trees. October 19. 1991.

I thought it was the downtown tunnels.

[Mena]

Hid in 2612: The new Pop-Up bar at Cane Rosso

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/city...2612_opens.php

[cowboyeagle05]

The new neighborhood vegetable garden is under construction.

https://twitter.com/#!/deepellum_tx/...00913492639745

#deepellum urban gardens has broken ground!!!! http://ow.ly/i/wVEH

https://twitter.com/#!/deepellum_tx/...07158379270144

...our first work day is this saturday to build planters...

[lakewoodhobo]

Charter school breaks ground:

http://www.wfaa.com/home/Groundbreak...medium=twitter

[Rangers100]

The Deep Ellum Food Trucks Rally last night was awesome. Great work by Brandon Castillo (of Deep Ellum Outdoor Market) and Downtown Dallas, Inc. in putting that one together.

Main Street in Deep Ellum needs to be blocked off permanently. There just really isn't a need for 3 major avenues running through Deep Ellum, and the benefits of giving Main Street back to people (instead of cars) would be huge.

[Speedbump Joey]

Main Street in Deep Ellum needs to be blocked off permanently. There just really isn't a need for 3 major avenues running through Deep Ellum, and the benefits of giving Main Street back to people (instead of cars) would be huge.

Amen! If there is ever a street/area that really should be promoted as a pedestrian district it should be Main Street through Deep Ellum.

[Hannibal Lecter]

^ Why would you want to kill off the remaining businesses on Main Street? Almost every attempt in the U.S. to create pedestrian malls has been a disaster for business.

Here's a suggestion: Why don't you ask the owners of the businesses along Main Street what they think of your plan. I imagine you'll get an earful.

[lakewoodhobo]

Pedestrian streets only work when enough people live within walking distance (New York, Madrid for example). If you want people to drive somewhere, park their car and walk through some shops, they can go to NorthPark and the Galleria.

[R1070]

Great idea! close off Main Street and put in some cool destination spots that aren't found around the metro area and you have a winning combination!

[Speedbump Joey]

There is sarcasm somewhere in this thread, I can feel it.

[aygriffith]

Great idea! close off Main Street and put in some cool destination spots that aren't found around the metro area and you have a winning combination!

Most of Deep Ellum has been places you can't find elsewhere in the Metroplex for 20+ years. Closing off Main St wasn't the reason most of those businesses have been less than successful.

[Rangers100]

Almost every attempt in the U.S. to create pedestrian malls has been a disaster for business.

Can you give me some examples of those in places similar to Main Street in Deep Ellum?

[Rangers100]

Pedestrian streets only work when enough people live within walking distance (New York, Madrid for example). If you want people to drive somewhere, park their car and walk through some shops, they can go to NorthPark and the Galleria.

That's the whole idea. Make it a great place for a neighborhood. Not just the collection of hemp shops and tattoo parlors Main Street is now.

Deep Ellum should and can be a self-sustaining neighborhood. It needs to get away from trying to be a destination for North Dallasites. (And there are fortunately a number of Deep Ellum residents working to do this. They have a very different take on the place than the North Dallas/Collin County crowd that choose not to live in the area.)

[aygriffith]

It needs to get away from trying to be a destination for North Dallasites.

Since when does anyone from North Dallas say to themselves "let's go to Deep Ellum" or think of it as a destination of any sorts? Maybe their kids in the 80's/90's but that's about it.

Deep Ellum says its always a victim of some other Burb or Council Person having a vendetta or poor knowledge of the area but the reality is they can't attract the businesses or patrons that will give the area staying power. Keeping Deep Ellum weird won't work. Hell even weird Austin looks a lot like Dallas these days.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[tamtagon]

That's the whole idea. Make it a great place for a neighborhood. Not just the collection of hemp shops and tattoo parlors Main Street is now.

Deep Ellum should and can be a self-sustaining neighborhood. It needs to get away from trying to be a destination for North Dallasites. (And there are fortunately a number of Deep Ellum residents working to do this. They have a very different take on the place than the North Dallas/Collin County crowd that choose not to live in the area.)

It all depends on what the neighborhood is supposed to be. If the goal is to be mostly a residential neighborhood, the really cool neighborhood where all the people live who start and/or adopt cultural trends (the weirdos & weirdo-friendly folks etc) the rest of the region's population follow, then it's critical for the scene, the retail services, entertainment and nightlife venues to be small in scale and mundane without much sizzle so the suburban excursionist will not recognize the scene.

If however, there's a goal for Deep Ellum to return as a nightlife destination, the place in North Texas where all the good bands play, where the people watching is the most entertaining, the one place to go to buy art, jewelry, clothing, home decor that's made by area residents, then it's critical for the scene, the retail services, entertainment and nightlife venues to form a collection of unique venues, niche product offerings with grand street appeal, curious to the suburban excursionists. The mundane household needs of area residents will have to be tucked away "around the corner" off the beaten path, but this time around, mundane household needs of a residential population must be a part of the equation.

The suburban tourist cannot be engineered out of a regional entertainment destination. Deep Ellum is where the Dallas Music Scene will evolve, and there's simply not enough people living within a couple miles to sustain the very specific and unusual spending array required by a neighborhood to sustain itself as host of something as fragile as a good music scene.

[mjblazin]

The problem is Dallas repeatedly demonstrates it is unable to manage option two before creating something that needs to get shut down. Dallas is not going to tolerate some kind of no man's land where people start getting hurt weekend after weekend. If anything now the tolerance is less and all the legal tools are in place to start yanking businesses. Whenever they see an opening, predators in Dallas will move quickly. It will take a little longer for DPD to get going, but when they do, they will squash everything with full Council backing and absolutely no nuance allowed.

The way to break that cycle is for the bar owners to take charge and get medieval on anybody crossing the line. Anything mixing teenagers and alcohol/drugs, even in incidental fashion, is over the line. Anything with consumption of alcohol outside of bars is over the line. Any group that even hints at even a personal threat to anyone or might escalate to violence is over the line. If it means maybe not trying to cram a much alcohol as the bars can in the dateless, 20 something male losers that seem to be the most profitable demographic, maybe that is a better long term tactic. Be weird as desired, but no one should ever feel unsafe at any time. Close off streets, set up fairs, whatever.

Deep Ellum is on its third chance. The bar and club owners will get a chance to succeed or hang themselves. If they blow it, the inning is over. Next inning will be carpet bombing, Post Apartments, Starbucks, and Banana Republics on every block.

[tamtagon]

.... Anything with consumption of alcohol outside of bars is over the line...

...or, as suggested, Main Street could be turned over to the pedestrians, and it's okay to drink outside bouncing from one place to the next. Personally, I think "the scene" in Dallas needs a setting like this more than just about anything else, but it's probably against the law. And besides, Fair Park is already providing the option, it's just dreadfully managed to overlook the ongoing outdoor party.

[mjblazin]

Unless you fence the place off and check IDs, the street becomes a big kegger with lots of underage drinking, possibly bring in own alcohol. People under 21 have no business partying with adults unless it is under some controls where someone's license/business at stake. It would be nice to say we know how to handle alcohol, but we do not. Practically every act of violence or serious accident across the metroplex, all races and income levels, has alcohol somewhere in the story. The last thing Deep Ellum needs is a another list of tales of woe that hold the phrase "drinking in Deep Ellum prior to X"

[AeroD]

Deep Ellum is on its third chance. The bar and club owners will get a chance to succeed or hang themselves. If they blow it, the inning is over. Next inning will be carpet bombing, Post Apartments, Starbucks, and Banana Republics on every block.

The incentive to police themselves is there. The Uplift School is actually a good thing, as is Baylor's Cancer Treatment Center. They all can coexist peacefully, but I think the burden is now on the bar owners to make sure Deep Ellum does not fall back to its bad habits.

[Rangers100]

Since when does anyone from North Dallas say to themselves "let's go to Deep Ellum" or think of it as a destination of any sorts?

Quite a few North Dallasites do that. And by North Dallas, I mean North of Woodall.

Keeping Deep Ellum weird won't work.

I know. I'm not wanting it to stay or be "weird." I'm saying it should attempt to be a cool, eclectic, but creative, intelligent neighborhood. Not just an "entertainment district" hoping to draw people from elsewhere.

Allow schools, plant gardens, change 1-way streets to 2-way, etc. All to go with the bars and restaurants and shops. Don't run them off and attempt to suburbanize the place like Angela Hunt and Avi Adelman have done to Lower Greenville. Be a cool but livable neighborhood as one would find in cool cities.

[aygriffith]

Don't run them off and attempt to suburbanize the place like Angela Hunt and Avi Adelman have done to Lower Greenville.

The only comment I have is to the above quote.

Not sure what you were up to prior to joining the forum in 2010 but Lower Greenville circa 2008ish had become a dump. The clubs were trashy but not in a trendy way. The police out numbered the bar patrons many weekend nights because of random acts of violence that were making the news. If you wanted a bikini contests on weekend nights that were one misplaced grab away from The Lodge it was a great place to go.

They were lucky to have the very over invested neighborhoods around the bars that finally said enough. Last time I was on Lower Greenville in Dec it was much more tame and many of the offending bars were gone. Not to mention nice sidewalks revamped streets and curbs. Deep Ellum would be lucky to have that kind of force behind it. There is an in between of Post Apartments and where they're at now. Mimicking Lower Greenville's community drive to clean up the neighborhood would be wonderful.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Rangers100]

Not sure what you were up to prior to joining the forum in 2010

Ha. I've been posting at this forum (under various handles) since the late 90s, before it was even a vBulletin forum.

but Lower Greenville circa 2008ish had become a dump.

And now we're banning bowling alleys and building Wal-Marts.

Good times. Frisco high fives for everyone.

[Exeter]

And now we're banning bowling alleys and building Wal-Marts.

Six lanes does not a bowling alley make. Let's not kid ourselves, it was a bar with a gimmick, a la Barcadia.

[cowboyeagle05]

The city also finally got rid of the bad bars and the law abiding ones remain. Now there can be a recovery for the area to become a neighborhood hot spot for daytime and nighttime eating, shopping and fun.

Lower Greenville before had become a DFW regional hot spot that was attracting people from those suburbs you are so desperate to wipe out Rangers100. As the bad behavior element moved in following the over crowding trendy suburbanites they slowly but sure scared off locals and suburbanites altogether leaving the place in the same condition as Deep Ellum.

Now the neighborhood that surrounds Lower Greenville can look forward to patronizing new local businesses that will move into a safer more balanced urban environment where they those businesses can flourish and not worry about fist fights and gun shots every other weekend endangering their businesses and customers.