Deep Ellum: Neighborhood in Transition

[gc]

Patrols provide boost to Deep Ellum
Deep Ellum patrons say they notice difference as police presence rises
08:25 PM CDT on Saturday, August 23, 2003
By JAIME JORDAN / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/localnews/...lum.60a7c.html

The people who visit or work in Deep Ellum are starting to see a different kind of cruising going on. Less than a week after Mayor Laura Miller pledged more police patrols to help address concerns about increasing crime in the neighborhood, some business owners and residents said things appear to be looking up. They think it might have had something to do with the more than 50 officers that cruised the streets in bicycles and patrol cars Friday. "It's a little more tame. I usually see more people outside the clubs," said Patrick Maue, 24, of Dallas. "I haven't seen anybody intoxicated. A lot of times you see guys harassing the women, but I haven't seen anything like that. I think it's working. It's a lot quieter."

Last week, members of the Deep Ellum Association, a group of business owners and residents, met with the mayor because they wanted to stop the loitering and cruising that business owners said was leading to crime – including men groping women on the street, robberies and assaults – and a decline in business. Ms. Miller responded by vowing to quadruple the number of officers on the street and putting officers on every corner, even if she had to raise the money herself. Westdale Asset Management, based in Dallas, which owns and leases retail space in Dallas and other cities, donated $15,300 to help the city pay for the extra off-duty officers. About 11:30 p.m. Friday night, officers started arriving in droves in Deep Ellum. There were groups of five officers walking down Commerce Street, while officers on bicycles stopped to help with traffic flow. Other officers were seated outside bars talking with patrons and security.

Some officers even posed with a group of women dressed in little blue leather dresses wearing fake police hats and fake badges. The women were promoting Somsara, a band that plays at clubs in Deep Ellum. Dallas police spokeswoman Janice Houston said the department has a long-term relationship with the Deep Ellum Association and is committed to deterring crime in the area. "Basically, we actually started deploying additional officers to that area last week because we were concerned about some robberies," Ms. Houston said. "This week is just an opportunity for us to add even more officers." Ms. Houston said the initiative should help curb crime in the area. "I think anytime you have increased police presence, that serves to deter criminal activity," she said.

More officers

Before the increased patrols, about 14 to 18 police officers worked the Deep Ellum neighborhood, and at times that number could drop to as low as six. Deep Ellum also has private security officers that patrol the area. Brad Richey, an officer with Deep Ellum's private security force, said he hadn't encountered any major problems Friday. "They're real excited for us to be here," Mr. Richey said of the business owners. Deep Ellum Association also launched a neighborhood watch program, Deep Ellum Safe and Sound. The program put walkie-talkies donated by Motorola in the hands of people working the doors at clubs so they could report crime. On Friday night, it was working. Patrons noticed fewer teenagers loitering and cruising the streets.

"I think it's a lot of the young people," said Julisa Johnson, 33, of Irving. "I think that's really the issue if they're underage. It's kind of slow for a Friday." Club managers also said they could see changes with the extra patrols. "It's helped out a lot," said Wayne White, head of security for Nairobi, a nightclub on Main Street. "We don't have the congestion in the door. Our customers can come in without being bothered." Gerusa Mendes, 19, of Brazil, said she saw police everywhere. It was her first trip to Deep Ellum during her visit to Texas. She said the presence made her feel safer because she had seen news reports about crime in Deep Ellum. "If anybody feels in danger they can find at least 50 people at about 30 different businesses to help them," said Sean Wisdom, executive director of the Deep Ellum Association.

Positive feedback

Mr. Wisdom said the feedback he has received from businesses about the police presence has been great. "We feel like it really changed the atmosphere," he said. "More importantly, the morale of our community has been raised so much by the fact that the mayor has taken such an interest in Deep Ellum." Some patrons could be seen Friday night showing their appreciation for the police. John Austin walked up to an officer and shook his hand. "I like to come down here and have fun," he said. "I don't want anybody messing with me, and the police will come out here and take care of business."

[bloodandpopcorn]

I do think this is really great. Makes it much safer for people to go down to the area and, even moreso than that, allows for people who were too "afraid" before to now be exposed to this wonderful area of Dallas. Hopefully in a few months we can have less police presence but simmiliar safety... if not, I'm in favor of keeping high police presence there. I'd also love ot see increased police presence on main street, etc., though I really dont have any problems on mainstreet as a general rule... Again, it would be good for a safer "image". Maybe after Iron Cactus opens...

[gc]

Just heard on NBC5 about Mayor Miller's plans for late night police patrol in Deep Ellum.

It goes something like this.....any clubs/bars that are open from 2-4am must pay for their own private police staff to monitor late night activities. Miller hopes to have the council approve it next month (I believe).

I'll tell you what, you can say what you want about Miller and you may not think this is the best solution....but once again I must say that she is doing things to make Dallas a better place.

[bloodandpopcorn]

I too think this is a great idea! Anything that betters the image of Deep Ellum and Dallas as a whole. It may be a bit hard-assed, but, I think it's exactly what the city needs to do. We need to make some decisive and hard decisions in lots of little areas to help Dallas move towards its potential.

[UptownGraphicsGuy]

Interesting article. My favorite line is "we're not gonna turn Dallas into Witchita Fallas or Lubbuck." A thriving nightlife that doesn't shut down at 2am is a major Key in getting more convention business back from places like Vegas and Orlando. Plus forcing every club in the city to literally "throw" their clients out on the street at exactly 2am is about the most idiotic idea I've ever heard of. "Hey we gotta problem with crime in Dallas, so lets force thousands of drunk drivers onto the roads all at the exact same time!" Brilliant I tell you...simply smashing! No pun intended. Read below:

Proposal on clubs rejected
City panel won't back removing permits for after-hours nightspots
04:08 AM CDT on Wednesday, October 8, 2003
By JASON TRAHAN / The Dallas Morning News

The message from several City Council members to Dallas police was clear Tuesday – doing away with after-hours nightclub permits is not an option to reduce crime. Some council members, however, did support a proposal to require clubs open past 2 a.m. to hire at least two off-duty police officers for security. During a briefing Tuesday, Dallas police Deputy Chief Daniel Garcia told members of the council's Public Safety Committee that the city's estimated 30 after-hours clubs are a drain on police resources and cause problems for nearby neighborhoods. The most common crimes are robberies, assaults, motor vehicle thefts and burglaries, he said. Such clubs are allowed to stay open until 4 a.m., though alcohol sales must stop at 2 a.m.

The proposal to end the permits for after-hours clubs "is a quick-fix Band-Aid that won't address any of the issues we're worried about," said council member John Loza, whose district includes several late-night dance clubs in Deep Ellum. "We're not going to turn ourselves into Wichita Falls or Lubbock." The police briefing comes after a fatal shooting last week outside Club Suavemente, an after-hours venue at 1820 W. Mockingbird Lane. Last Friday's shooting stemmed from an argument that ended in the death of Juan Hernandez Jr., 31. At the time, Chief Garcia said there were 230 calls for service at that club in the first eight months of this year, including 52 serious property and violent offenses.

On Tuesday, however, Chief Garcia said those figures were for all of the businesses in that strip shopping center, which has another after-hours club and a bar that closes at 2 a.m. Council member Ed Oakley questioned other police statistics, which showed that entertainment districts with after-hours clubs, such as Deep Ellum and Oak Lawn, have more late-night crime than those such as Lower Greenville Avenue and Knox-Henderson, which have no such clubs. He said the figures unfairly include other businesses near the after-hours clubs. "We know that you don't like late-hours clubs," Mr. Oakley told Chief Garcia.

Chief Garcia said the department's goal Tuesday was to get feedback on its crime control proposals. "This is why we brought this forward," Chief Garcia said. "We'll go back and do some more research." Council member Sandy Greyson said outlawing after-hours clubs would damage the city's reputation. "I don't know how we would say we're a world-class city when we are even considering this," she said. Although Ms. Greyson favored extra security for after-hours clubs, she said, the potential restrictions on top of the unrelated restaurant smoking ban might be too much for residents to handle. Jay Winborn, a DJ at the Deep Ellum after-hours club Seven, said extra security requirements aren't fair. "It would take a substantial amount of revenue for us to hire off-duty police officers," he said. "We're in line with a lot of other businesses in town. The economic crunch right now makes it hard." He said the city ought to be more precise in which clubs it targets.

"This is a shotgun approach," he said of the police proposals. "They want to make everyone pay for the wrongdoing of a couple of bad operators." Chief Garcia said the department has tried unsuccessfully to have the after-hours permits of problem businesses revoked. This last year, the city's Permit and License Appeal Board overturned 16 Police Department denials, he said. Derek Britz, a dance club promoter who also attended Tuesday's briefing, said after-hours clubs are the city's crime scapegoat. "Thirty businesses aren't going to put two police officers each on the street and fix Dallas' crime problem," he said.

E-mail jtrahan@dallasnews.com

[mikedsjr]

You would hate me, because if i was a city councilman i support any afterhours club to have to hire security. I would support a alcohol band after 2am for clubs. And if i could i would make it illegal to sell alcohol after midnight at clubs.

Nothing good happens after 2am. So sober them up starting at midnight.

[drycreek]

mike, I'm glad your not a council member, life for young singles in Dallas would blow...

[mikedsjr]

If young singles can only have fun by drunkeness after mindmight, then there really is something wrong with the singles in Dallas.

I see it like School. If one doesn't want to take responsibiltiy for their actions in class, then everyone will pay in that class. So IMO, its would not be that is placing on the city, but the idiots that don't take responsibilities in their businesses that promote drunkeness and don't care to protect its patrons. Thus you would need to take it up with the guilty parties, not with me.

I have no problem with the beer sells staying the way they are now in clubs. But irresponsible club owners ruin it for the rest of the club owners.

[boozo]

It's not about getting drunk.

It's about dancing drunk.

[boozo]

I remember when I used to work the 3-11 shift when I was younger. After work, we got to the bar by 12 and then we slammed drinks in order to get a buzz before last call. Ended up getting more trashed than I intended.

I always felt that I was prevented from drinking slowly at my own pace because of these stupid laws.

[fiercedfw]

You need a clarification. This proposal is not that clubs that do not have security get it. It is that all clubs regardless of performance get a certain type of security for certain hours. If you’re going to be fooled by a sound-bite “Mongo say, more security good!” then you will never have an effective government.

The police chief has the power in Sec 37-24 of the city code to close any club to prevent a breach of the peace. Instead, they lamely contest the “grandfather” position of clubs based on their proximity to residences. The police lose every time because the club was there before the residence was and there is an exception in the ordinance to deal with that. So, rather than do something like police work and go to particular clubs where they have a lot of problems (which is in their power) and work out together a way to improve the situation, they have taken on a mission to close all late hours clubs. Again, they will lose every time because they are focused on their beliefs rather than finding a solution.

Here’s a great example how ineffective Deputy Chief Garcia’s proposal would be. Club One operates for 16 hours a week, 4 of which are after 2AM. Club Seven operates 26 hours a week, 6 of which are after 2AM. In the first 9 months of 2003, there have been two crimes of all types at these locations (4 total). The crimes in question? Auto burglary. Did those crimes occur between 2AM & 4AM? Garica didn’t break that down, but only 43 offenses of all types happened near all late hours venues between the hours of 2AM & 4AM for the first nine months of 2003. So, 30 clubs spending $2,000 each per month of nine months, a total cost of at least $540,000 may have prevented 43 calls to police. But what if the off-duty officer was doing something else when and auto burglary happened? We can’t assume their presence would bring the crime rate to zero. It also does not free the regular cops from patrolling the area.

Clubs and their patrons pay sales tax on admission and beverages, the pay alcohol tax on everything served before 2AM. They pay for a dance hall permit, which went up 300% in the last year. They pay property tax on the building and fixtures. So, why should theses heavily taxed businesses pay for their own police force after 2AM when other businesses serving the public are open 24 hours a day, 168 hours a week (i.e. convenience stores, gas stations, restaurants). Those businesses are provided police protection as part of the tax base they generate. They are free to determine if they need extra security or not. While they draw robbers, the homeless, panhandlers, have people play loud stereos late at night from their car and host all sorts of drama late at night, these businesses are not considered a threat.

People who work an 8-5pm job are very smug about no good person would want to be out after 2AM. Really! Well, what about the people that served you in a restaurant that night and didn’t get off work til midnight? Should they never have any nightlife options? What about the people that work in clubs that close at 2AM? Should they never have any options? There are countless service industry and even professional jobs where people work on shifts other than 8a-5p. They may just be getting off and in their schedule, it’s Friday happy hour at midnight on Saturday, yet there is this image that ‘decent’ people should be home in bed no later than 2AM.

Further, as Ed Oakley pointed out, police patrolling the premise of a nightclub are not in a patrol car covering lots of area. They are covering a tiny area, at most what can be clearly seen at night from the premise they are guarding. They have little ability to patrol any further. The proposal presented by Chief Garcia was not for additional patrols in the area, it was for 2 officers on the nightclub premise, where in Garcia’s own words he said “there were no offenses being committed”.

John Loza pointed out that in New York City they serve alcohol until 4AM and there is no end to dancing. They have a low crime rate for one simple reason, a lot of police on patrol who are willing to deal with the individuals that commit crime. Look at the unsolved crime rate for Dallas, and you see that due to slow response time, criminals escape a huge percentage of the time. Further, there are insufficient investigative resources. Think about it, your car gets broken into, you do a report on the phone if at all, nobody collects any evidence. Was your car the only car that person broke into? Probably not. Who’s car will he break into next? Nobody comes and take fingerprints or anything. So, we may already have the criminal complete with fingerprints and address in our crime database from some other minor infraction. Or, we may pick him up for unpaid parking tickets or a traffic stop and never know. The same person can break into hundreds or thousands of cars before getting caught, if ever.

So, John Loza was dead-on target with the assessment that this idea of added patrols for 2 ½ hours two or three nights a week in an area of 30 parking lots may make for a good sound-bite, but it is a totally ineffective proposal. By wasting time on things that won’t work, we delay the day when we will finally do something that will.

This proposal by Deputy Chief Garcia is a knee-jerk, politically motivated ineffective solution. If we’re all willing to get excited about that type of answer and applaud it, we’ll never get anything better.

Originally posted by mikedsjr
You would hate me, because if i was a city councilman i support any afterhours club to have to hire security. I would support a alcohol band after 2am for clubs. And if i could i would make it illegal to sell alcohol after midnight at clubs.

Nothing good happens after 2am. So sober them up starting at midnight.

[dallastophoenix]

Great point of view, fiercedfw!

I agree that the Chief needs to illustrate better research, than blanket statements...

Also, if after-hours clubs were the problem child responsible for Dallas' horrific crime rate - what the hell? Why aren't other big cities, with much more after-hours clubs, not having our same crime problem?

Yes, the police dept. needs to work with the club owners that are having the problems, and not punish every club that's open after 2a (I think this just takes me back to high school basketball, and the coach punishing us all for one players laziness... I've always disliked that approach...).

[bloodandpopcorn]

I agree with the last two posts. Drinking after 2am isn't the problem. And putting in more laws really is a bit of an infringement on people's rights. Realistically, if you're out at 2am in the area of a bar and not drinking, then what are you doing? If crime comes into the neighborhood, then that's the neighborhood's problem. Get the citizens together and request more police patrols at night to catch individuals that break the law. But imposing any kind of time restriction is just manipulation of power, and leads us more and more towards a facsist government.

I agree, dallaspheonix! That approach is stupid and pointless, and (one in my case) only lead an entire physical education class to revolt. I don't think that what the city of Dallas wants is a bunch of pissed off citizens, either loosing all respect for the police or moving to another city where they haven't lost any freedom. But then again, look at our smoking ordinance. Go figure.

[mikedsjr]

I'm not saying the problem is with the can or glass which happens to have a alcoholic substance inside it. The problem is the person pulling the trigger who has been angry, depressed, frustrated, lost his job, or what-not, that is trying to drown their negatives away and then take it out on the people in the bar or on the road.

What i hear being proposed in here is for the DPD to work with these businesses. And that the DPD has been unsuccessful in closing down business due to the fact that they are grandfathered in due to the fact that no neighboorhoods existed at the time of their start. That's a stupid law. That needs to be abolished.

I don't care if every bar has to pay $5,000/mo for security. Its there problem.

This sounds so much like the anti-smoking ban stance but with alcohol. Drinking and getting drunk causes families to seperate, shootings, deaths, car wrecks, and millions of dollars. Yet you guys are okay with that along as YOU can have fun. You may not see the statistics in the crime stats but they go much deeper.

You can't say that about staying home with the family at decent hours as you can staying out all ours of the night getting drunk.

[fiercedfw]

So nobody ever stays home, drinks and causes domestic calls to police?

The #1 sources of calls to police is low income apartment complexes. Should they have to provide their own police protection force and drive up rents and make those families homeless?

Staying home doesn't make one 'decent'. Having a family doesn't make you 'decent'.

One's behavior does.

The point is these business already pay for police protection. If the police focused on working with the tiny minority of clubs where they have a problem instead of making it adversarial and trying to close them, they could solve this without a new law. They are trying to ammend or enforce the dance hall ordinance.

They do not need to do that, they need to use the general city code for enforcement against any type of business that may be disruptive regardless of operating hours.

You're taking the position that you want clubs closed because 'decent' people don't go there. If you can't close them, then force expensive mandates on them until they close. There are real people here that will lose their jobs and their investments in good businesses for no reason except that the police refuse to take a productive approach using a different section of the law book.

If you want to live someplace that closes up at midnight, fine move there. But don't move next door to nightclubs and then expect them to close because you don't care for it.

[dallastophoenix]

The issue seems to be getting personal about alcohol (so many social issues involved on where everyone stands)...

Yes, problems can occur when alcohol is present. Likewise, late hours can produce their own headaches. Sometimes the two together are disastrous.

However, I could be the victim of a late night shopping jaunt to the 24-hr Kroger... Should we shut all of those down b/c a few are having problems with theft and assault?

On that same note (actually one that I brought up earlier in this thread), punishing all for one (or a few) clubs problems w/ crime doesn't make sense - which is what the Dallas Police Dept. wishes to do...

If that were the case, and we're on a rampage of punishing all for one's (or two) problems... let's just get rid off all the current DPD officers/administration... hey, they've had a few bad guys at the top - why not get rid of them all?

That wouldn't solve the DPD's problems, nor would it solve the problems w/ Dallas' after-hours nightclubs.

[gc]

Let's not forget one of the main reasons this particular issue came about to begin with.....and that is that many people claimed to not feel safe hangin out/walking around in Deep Ellum, whether it was 9pm or 2am is of zero consequence. They wanted to restore the "feeling" of safety to the area....not just to reduce late night crime....which by the way happens everyhwere...sober or not.

[UptownGraphicsGuy]

Ummmm, mikedsjr – getting drunk and dancing at 3am in the morning with a pretty girl is how you start that family you talk about staying home with...

Live and let Live buddy!

[mikedsjr]

I'll admit that i am niave about alot of what goes on. I don't mind my niaveness. I grew up in church. Found my wife in Church. Have a great marriage and have a great child. And i have alot of great friends that don't do the bar scene either. And to be honest, all of my real good friends have gone to church and don't do the same thing either.

So my view of the bar culture is skewed. So i am sure i am not the best person to talk to on the topic of bars and drinking. But i do have my opinion. Being 'hip' or not with the bar scene is not a huge peer pressure for me. I understand people drink and i many of my Christian friends drink. I'm not opposed to drinking. I don't like beer. I like wine.

That was just to give my side of the issue of where i am coming from out.

[mikedsjr]

It just seems that the conclusion is "If your not drinking, your not having fun".

And since alot of drinking tends to lead to some kind of disorderly conduct at some point. I don't have the problem with making bar owners having to pay the tab to create safe neighboorhoods.

But whatever is to happen, it doesn't affect me. I'm never there.

[tamtagon]

I think the city is obligated to provide services to it's citizens and visitors regardless of the time of day (or night).

[fiercedfw]

First of all, you said: the conclusion is "If your not drinking, your not having fun".. Drinking ends at 2AM in all venues. These are dance venues so the focus is music not drinking. The disputed time frame is after 2AM when there is no drinking. These licensed establishments follow that law.

Second, “whatever is to happen, it doesn't affect me. I'm never there”, if you’re not there then what qualifies you to pass judgment on the businesses and patrons that you may at most have a cursory view or understanding of? That’s a rhetorical question, by the way. But more important, the outcome does matter (even to people that never go to these places),

Actually it does affect you. Consider these what ifs……

What if the city council spends all kinds of time on passing an ordinance that is ineffective. Then has to spend the same amount of time in the future covering this same ground again because they got it wrong the first time? What other important public safety item will not make it to the agenda? Time in finite, if you waste it, something else will suffer.

What if the city makes a mistake and even a handful of people lose their jobs? They won’t be spending money in places you DO value, the downward spiral of the economy becomes worse,

What if people who invested their life savings in opening a small business lose it because a single police officer can see no solution but to shut them down rather than work with them? How many other potential small business owners will decide they can’t risk investing in a city that doesn’t have a stable legal environment for them to grow in.

What if a bad ‘solution’ is put in place and we have to wait months more for improvements to be made.

Democracy requires an informed electorate and sound-bites do not get you anywhere near informed. The typical TV news coverage of the most important topic of the day is no more that 3-4 minutes. It’s repeated endlessly, but can you really understand something in 3-4 minutes? What about the typical 90 second new story? Or the 300-500 word count newspaper story?

Originally posted by mikedsjr
It just seems that the conclusion is "If your not drinking, your not having fun".

And since alot of drinking tends to lead to some kind of disorderly conduct at some point. I don't have the problem with making bar owners having to pay the tab to create safe neighboorhoods.

But whatever is to happen, it doesn't affect me. I'm never there.

[aceplace]

Mikedsjr,

I'll agree with you that drinking in bars does result in a lot of trouble, from the few that do it irresponsibly.

Will you agree with me that organized religious sects have resulted in violence and civil conflict around the world, from the few that do it irresponsibly?

If the bar owners have to pay extra to the police, perhaps the churches should pay for UN peacekeepers in Kosovo?

It's true... there are other sources of fun besides alcoholic beverages...

Of course, there are other sources of moral rectitude besides organized churches...

So we restrict the bars from opening after 9PM at night, and we restrict the churches from staying open after Sunday at noon...

Fair enough?

[mikedsjr]

The smoking ban didnt affect me except for the fact that i have cleaner air to breath in resteraunts. And frankly it doesn't affect me. If a place closes down because of the ban it certainly was not good for everyone anyway.

And i think you can have a basic understanding of an issue in 3-4 minutes. Whether you like my view or not is another story. Not many people have that much time to spend educating themselves on the issues. They trust the media to give them accurate information. And from the likes of it, alot of people in here do too.

And the phrase i used, "nothing good happens after 2am" is a phrase that Greg Williams of the Ticket Sports Radio station uses all the time. He, being a former bartender, should now.

[mikedsjr]

ace,

I agree with your first question. No question.

2) I see your point. And i think i understand the reasoning with your argument opposing for all owners having to pay extra for police. But maybe, just like in Kosovo, the ones where the problems are coming from should pay.

[aceplace]

Mikedsjr,

You seem ready to deprive others of their buzzes and highs, but you don't recognize the danger in your own. What I mean is the untold misery that organized religions, such as yours, have unleashed on this world, presumably to get people to look forward to the next one.

Every religious movement in history has resulted in wholesale suffering and massive death, with a couple of exceptions... and the current Judaeo-Christian American mainstream is not innocent of this charge.

I don't care if we're talking about Hester Prynne wearing a scarlet letter, Palestinian suicide bombers, Aztec priests ripping out human hearts on top of a pyramid, Ulster Catholics versus Ulster Protestants, Lutherans versus Catholics in the 30 years War in Germany, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Problem", or Mohammed's Jihad against infidels and Christians.

Your favorite source of ecstasy is far more dangerous than any alcohol could ever be.

No wonder you want to penalize alcohol drinkers... they represent a more socially acceptable and benign form of self-escape. They don't band together and try to kill or enslave all the teetotalers.

Do you have anything to say about the charges I've brought, have you no shame for the sad history wrought by people like yourself?

BTW, the two exceptions I alluded to...

The Roman gods and goddeses... each one represented a different sect, and they respected one another...

In the far east, the Buddhist world had no religious wars, no organized death sentences against unbelievers.

[fiercedfw]

Mikedsjr,

I think you are right that the common ground is that the individuals or specific establishments that cause problems should be a major portion of the solution. The latest fight has come from organizations that are not an undue problem and don’t want to be treated like they are.

The mistake of the police department has been not to involve these establishments in solving the problem. They need to be smart and use a combination of carrot and stick. For example, we don’t want to oppose your license, let’s work this out now before hand. Rather than, we oppose every license renewal because it’s automatically bad.

Oddly, people with a lot invested in a business want to keep it open. When your only approach is to shut it down, they will fight back to defend that. But if you make a good faith effort to work together as equal partners, great things can happen.

That’s called community policing where police make a connection to the people they protect. It turned around New York and LA. The veterans of the DPD just are taking way too long to adopt what is now common practice in big cities everywhere. It’s part of our growing process. Are we a city or a small town? Oddly, in small towns things are small enough that this happens automatically. It’s when things get big enough o depersonalize that it causes friction.

The one thing that has not happened is for police to sit down with the few establishments that have a high number of calls and work with them. Why is that asking so much? If they have high calls they need help and probably want it, but not under threat of losing the business. If that fails, then perhaps additional measures are needed, but why jump straight to that and blanket mandate that may have unintended consequences. Knowing everyone at city hall and DPD is reading Giuliani’s book I don’t know why this is the last thing on the agenda and so controversial.

Originally posted by mikedsjr
ace,

I agree with your first question. No question.

2) I see your point. And i think i understand the reasoning with your argument opposing for all owners having to pay extra for police. But maybe, just like in Kosovo, the ones where the problems are coming from should pay.

[aceplace]

Mikedsjr,

You may be wondering... why didn't I include the Greek Gods and Goddeses in my honor roll of innocent religions?

The Greek divinities were not innocent... they created the Trojan War.

They even participated... Ares (god of War) and Aphrodite (goddess of lust) personally fought Athena (goddess of war and wisdom) on the battlefield outside of Troy.

The war began when the three goddeses (Hera, Athens and Aphrodite) put up a beauty contest. Aphrodite won for the Trojans, and the other two went off to sulk and to stir up the war...

[aceplace]

Fiercedfw,

I thought the problem had nothing to do with the bars or their patrons... the problem was the rowdies who loiter outside the bars to harass the clientele.

Since the bars pay a pretty stiff tax to the city, they deserve their moneys worth, in the form of police protection...

They might get better protection if they paid taxes to the Mafia instead of the city...

[aceplace]

Re... the problem with drunks and public urination around lower Greenville...

Why doesn't the city erect some public street facilities, like they have in Amsterdam or Paris...

That would absolutely be a World-Class solution for Dallas.

[mikedsjr]

I gave my history of where i came from so that might understand that i might be niave about what happens in bars.

I have no problem with bars. I have no problem with people drinking. I don't like beers taste. So i don't drink it. I've never in a specific instance condemned anyone for getting drunk unless it affected others. No i don't believe getting drunk is right. Yeah, i think their getting drunk for the wrong reasons. But don't condemn me because i am a Christian.

Two weeks ago i was out working with Habitat for humanity to build a house. My church works with the UN to get medicines and doctors directly to the afganistanians. I church has tried to help get businesses to go to Vietnam to help the economy there. My pastor has been blindfolded and taken to certain afgany leaders to talk to them about what they need. This is one church. There are more churches out there doing the same. They act out of kindness to see people have a better chance in life and a better chance to be open to hear about the one true God. Now i grew up in a church that was probably much more to the side of what you were talking about. And yes there are some bad churches out there. And obviously the bad churches are going to create a description of what all churches are. Not the good churches. The good churches you wont here about because they are too busy trying to help people where you aren't. There in South America. There in Harlem. There in Kosovo. There in Central America. There in South Dallas. There in China. There in India. There at where there is need.

I am not fond of the preacher on the corner of a Downtown street yelling away. I used to. I thought that was the way to be. I've certainly changed. I certainly know i have faults and i certainly know i even still have misconceptions about people and i still try to learn. Maybe my learning style is not the best way. But i am still learning. I guarantee you that i will always take what you said to heart and try to change how i approach life. But i realize it doesn't always change how i ask questions or make statements.

I gave my opinion. I gave background for my opinion. I appreciate more understanding in why i am wrong than for you to say that religion is a joke to you. Frankly my opinion is not based off a christian doctrive with regards to views. Its my opinion.

I'm really sorrry for taking up this space with my rant that has nothing to do with the topic. I truly apologize. I try hard to not let religion get involved in my discussions in here. I guess its best for me to not enter topics that have a chance for me to enter that realm.

[fiercedfw]

You are correct that a huge amount of the time the problem is with rowdies that hang out in the parking lot. However, if people are hanging out in my parking lot illegally drinking alcohol and causing problems for my customers going in and out, I have a major interest in dealing with the issue. For the comfort of my customers and being a good neighbor, I should lead the charge to deal with this.

If this is happening at a couple places those business owners need to deal with it rather than apply a quick-fix without regard to the specific circumstances to all similar businesses. If those business owners need to employ private security or off-duty police officers or get the help of the police department, or simply cut-off service to certain people before they cross-over they should lead the charge so they have control of the solution for the good of their other customers that are not a part of this activity and may be harmed by it. This does not suggest that all clubs have these problems. The ones that do need to work on them, its in there self-interest. Only if an establishment fails to do that should that one establishment have any special sanctions.

My position has always been that the heavily taxed club industry already pays it’s share and needs the help and cooperation of the police department rather than threats to shut it down.

When things spill off the club’s property then the line blurs a bit as to who has authority to deal with the issues and who has responsibility. If a business wants to be a good neighbor and protect its customer’s it needs to be involved in the solution.

But to better understand the direction of this week’s discussion versus the general Deep Ellum patrol issue, you may want to look at the Dallas Morning News from Saturday, which drove the most recent direction of discussion at City Hall.

http://www.dallasnews.com/localnews/...urs.77dbf.html

Basically in a run up to the Tuesday council briefing, Deputy Chief Garcia was pointing to 2 after hours locations as an example of the pure evil of all of them. There was shooting there last week and he at the time claimed 230 calls to the location. By Tuesday, he was back-peddling and recanting the figures he gave to the morning news the Friday before.

This was the sound-bite setup for the meeting. Serious problem. Chief offers two “solutions” one unacceptable the other marketable but ineffective. The close was supposed to be another sound bite: Mayor and Chief take tough stance on crime at clubs. Ra Ra Ra, end of story, count the votes. However, the fact that many people close to the situation including the council members with the clubs in their districts knew this was a band-aid that would waste time and money and accomplish little.

As I have always said, these clubs pay for police protection already, deserve it, and deserve cooperation rather than a shut ‘em all down approach. I cannot understand why the concept of a police chief sitting down and talking to a business owner is so foreign. They have the authority to do it, many business people I know welcome the chance for a dialog because they have concerns too.

In Deep Ellum, the problem has been with people that never even park let alone patronize a club causing problems. That is a police problem not one that club security is capable of dealing with. If you have been there in the week or two before the fair you would see a dramatic improvement from say mid-July.

However, in my opinion, the police were as much the problem as part of the solution in Deep Ellum because they simply would not work with businesses on solutions. They would say “We’re shutting down Main Street from 11pm to 3AM” Well, that’s great unless you have a parking lot on Main or a business. Then to make matters worse, whatever the published plan was, they would do something different so if you tried to help your customers know what to expect so they could get to you, they would screw you up. They took a tough situation and made it worse by not practicing community policing.

This concept of community policing, police, business and residents working together is so foreign here people just give you a blank stare. “Well of course we have a community and we have police in it, so we must have community policing”. They totally miss the point.

Originally posted by aceplace
Fiercedfw,

I thought the problem had nothing to do with the bars or their patrons... the problem was the rowdies who loiter outside the bars to harass the clientele.

Since the bars pay a pretty stiff tax to the city, they deserve their moneys worth, in the form of police protection...

They might get better protection if they paid taxes to the Mafia instead of the city...

[ibryant]

I know this is off topic, but I have to rant a little here...why do there always have to be strings attached...sure, we'll help you [fill in the blank], but first you have to listen to us market our religion. Why can't these religious groups just help people to help people? No preaching, no converting, just helping a fellow human being because it is the right thing to do. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem too sincere to say "we really want to help you in any way that we can...but, before we do, you're going to have to put up with us incessantly trying to convert you." I'm glad that churches are doing good stuff for the world, but it shouldn't be conversion veiled in a good deed, it should simply be a good deed for a good deed's sake. I'm sorry, but it's just not right to pick on people when they are at their most vulnerable...of course, they're a captive audience and it makes good marketing sense, and that is what it all comes down to...it's easy to convert the down-and-out. Please, in the future, help build a house for someone out of the goodness of your heart...I applaude you for helping your fellow man, and I'm happy that Christianity works for you. But please, let them decide ON THEIR OWN if they want to join a religion or not...do you not see the hypocricy in all of this???

[fiercedfw]

I agree that this particular issue is one that is easily solved.

I know many clubs on lower Greenville have begged to be allowed some sort of no alcohol service time window after 2AM, even just a half hour to stagger the departure of people from the clubs and give people a few minutes to use the restroom and collect themselves before they head for the car.

No dice. They met stiff resistance to staying open even one minute longer for any reason.

John Loza who has that area in his district pointed out Tuesday that the clearing of all the bars at exactly the same moment is what causes the congestion and noise and traffic that drives residents there just crazy. I sympathize with the residents wanting it over as early as possible. However, perhaps a lower intensity exodus running til 230a or 3am would be worth a try.

If you moved into the residential areas around Greenville in the last 10 years, you had to know there were clubs there and the St. Patrick’s Day street festival. Try to work with it, you live in an amazing area that is like an American postcard 5 days a week and you have all this other stuff a short walk away. Many people would find it ideal.

Originally posted by aceplace
Re... the problem with drunks and public urination around lower Greenville...

Why doesn't the city erect some public street facilities, like they have in Amsterdam or Paris...

That would absolutely be a World-Class solution for Dallas.

[fiercedfw]

Maybe you have pegged the religion/charity nexus as the birthplace of the banner/pop-up ad

Originally posted by ibryant
I know this is off topic, but I have to rant a little here...why do there always have to be strings attached...sure, we'll help you [fill in the blank], but first you have to listen to us market our religion. Why can't these religious groups just help people to help people? No preaching, no converting, just helping a fellow human being because it is the right thing to do. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem too sincere to say "we really want to help you in any way that we can...but, before we do, you're going to have to put up with us incessantly trying to convert you." I'm glad that churches are doing good stuff for the world, but it shouldn't be conversion veiled in a good deed, it should simply be a good deed for a good deed's sake. I'm sorry, but it's just not right to pick on people when they are at their most vulnerable...of course, they're a captive audience and it makes good marketing sense, and that is what it all comes down to...it's easy to convert the down-and-out. Please, in the future, help build a house for someone out of the goodness of your heart...I applaude you for helping your fellow man, and I'm happy that Christianity works for you. But please, let them decide ON THEIR OWN if they want to join a religion or not...do you not see the hypocricy in all of this???

[aceplace]

Mikedsjr,

Don't mind me, please, I just like to have a good, "Jesuitlike" discussion... nothing wrong...

A couple of comments regarding drinking and religion...

1. Apparently, Jesus, the founder of your religion, had no problem with drinking alcohol... not only that, He CREATED some when a wedding party ran out. So your religious strictures are, strictly speaking, originating somewhere outside of the original Christian ethic...

2. St Paul street in downtown Dallas was (re)named during national prohibition in the 1930s. Not to honor the saint, but to honor the phrase "... drink a little wine, for your stomach's sake".

[aceplace]

Ibryant,

Religious groups proselytize to the groups they give handouts to for one good reason...

The religious ideology is more important than just one night's bowl of soup...

Personally, I think it's a waste of time... you might as well be preaching the theory of Relativity to vagrants as to preach theology to them... they're at a state of life where they're impervious to the value of either... completely catatonic to anything except sheer survival of the body...

The question then becomes... what is the value to the community of keeping them alive in Dallas instead of letting Los Angeles do it...

[mikedsjr]

ibryant,

to make a long topic short in the wrong place,

1)No conversion is real if its something forced upon someone.
2)I've never seen, nor have i ever been to a church that required anyone being served to have to listen and accept what the Bible teaches. Nor have i ever seen or heard of help not given to those who rejected it. Not saying it doesn't happen.

[mikedsjr]

Originally posted by aceplace
Mikedsjr,

Don't mind me, please, I just like to have a good, "Jesuitlike" discussion... nothing wrong...

A couple of comments regarding drinking and religion...

1. Apparently, Jesus, the founder of your religion, had no problem with drinking alcohol... not only that, He CREATED some when a wedding party ran out. So your religious strictures are, strictly speaking, originating somewhere outside of the original Christian ethic...

2. St Paul street in downtown Dallas was (re)named during national prohibition in the 1930s. Not to honor the saint, but to honor the phrase "... drink a little wine, for your stomach's sake".

I don't disagree with neither of those. And your comments are not taken in vain.

[tamtagon]

To compliment the reputation Dallas has as a very business friendly city and an inexpensive city in which to live, I'd like governmantal agencies to facilitate a reputation as a city with a varied and vibrant night life.

Steering Dallas toward the same destination consideration received by cities like San Francisco, Las Vegas, New York City etc., regulatory policy makers need to create a similar environment for all types of tourists which is enjoyed by businesses. Dallas should be bigger slice of the tourism pie. It just stands to reason that a city which in its infancy was said by some to have no real reason to exist, promotes as many reasons as possible for visitors to visit; it's part of the city's legacy - build it and they will come.

While the progress has been slow, Dallas is working to become a national player in the Cultural and High arts arena, thanks in great part to philanthropic contribution. The city is generating the opportunity. Soon to join the current Arts District, "world class" plans for a Preforming Arts Center and Natural History Museum will potentially provide the foundation for hundreds of ancillary venues. Futhermore, I will not be at all surprised when Dallas sees other similar institudions pop up. As the Dallas Museum of Art has started as an all purpose collection, the museum could divest/spin-off into more specialized branches (Modern Art, Contemport etc.).

To that end, the city's approach to managing night life should expedite more opportunities rather than stifle them. Dallas could attract more attention from the entertainment industry. For decades, DFW (and Texas) has courted the film industry. Well, in addition to giving the corporate suites a place to issue memos, Dallas should allow the atmosphere to develop which could hold some of the A-list celebrities during a night out on the town. It would back up the city's image as a glitzy town. Let people dance after 4:00.

[dallastophoenix]

Leaving Deep Ellum

Some retailers are moving amid a transition in the area

12:23 AM CDT on Friday, October 17, 2003

By STEVE BROWNReal Estate Editor / The Dallas Morning News

Larry Sanders' folk art store has been a colorful fixture in Deep Ellum for almost nine years.

But if you stop by Casa Mexicana's Elm Street address now, all you'll find in the window is directions to its new store.

"It was sad to leave, but this is a better location," said Mr. Sanders, whose new, larger shop is on Live Oak Avenue near the new Latino Cultural Center. "Things are changing in Deep Ellum, and we decided it was time to move."

A sign at Casa Mexicana's former Elm Street site directs shoppers to the new location.
Is there life after Deep Ellum?

That's what some of the district's oldest retailers are asking as they leave the neighborhood. They say the area is in transition, and they're looking for opportunities in other markets.

Since Deep Ellum began to be redeveloped in the early 1980s, it's been one of Dallas' most popular inner-city neighborhoods for nightclubs, restaurants and retailers.

But a slowdown in the economy and the growth of retail communities in nearby Uptown and downtown are taking a toll. Many high-profile storefronts are vacant, and other retail tenants say they are leaving.

Recent publicity about street crime has also hurt, real estate brokers say.

"More shoppers pay attention to that than people going to restaurants and clubs," said broker Mark Hajdu of Henry S. Miller Commercial. "The negative press has not helped at all.

"Some of the restaurants and clubs are doing better in Deep Ellum," he said. "But retail has never caught on like they thought it would."

The Arrangement will relocate to North Dallas after the first of the year.

For Lease signs are proliferating, and several large spaces have been sitting empty for months. Legacy Trading Co., Articles, Gifted and Star Cat have shut down.

One of the oldest restaurants in the area – East Wind – moved out two months ago.

Owner Tuyet Davis said she decided to uproot and go to the Quadrangle shopping center in Uptown because her evening business in Deep Ellum was slow.

"Also, the parking here is better," said Ms. Davis, who had been on Elm Street for more than 15 years. "We were one of the first down there.

"But sometimes you have to make a change," she said.

Many of her customers have followed East Wind to its new location near McKinney Avenue, she said.

'The next cycle'


Jeff Swaney, a real estate broker and investor who's worked the area for years, predicts that new retailers will eventually take over the vacant spaces.
"But we're going to have to wait for the next cycle to come around," he said. "There was a window of opportunity for this neighborhood to lure a lot of different retailers.

"But with Mockingbird Station and West Village coming online, they gobbled up the urban retailers you would traditionally find in this area," Mr. Swaney said.

The upcoming construction of a DART light rail line through Deep Ellum will probably provide the next big opportunity for redevelopment, he said. Work on that line – which has two Deep Ellum stops – is set to start in 2007.

Mark Sonna, who opened a Deep Ellum gift store with partner Larry Groseclose in the mid-1990s, said he hopes that more retailers will take root in the neighborhood. Mark & Larry's Stuff now has a second location downtown on Main Street.

"The more retail we can get, the better," Mr. Sonna said. "We need more activity in the daytime."

He said the media reports about street crime in Deep Ellum created the wrong impression. "It made it sound like it was around the clock when it was happening between 12 and 3 in the morning," Mr. Sonna said.

Factors in move


Casa Mexicana owner Mr. Sanders said his decision to leave Deep Ellum was not just about changes in the neighborhood. The opening of the Latino Cultural Center was also a big factor.
"We were able to double our store space and are planning new things," he said. "I think Deep Ellum is going back to the way it was 15 or 20 years ago" when the area was dominated by nightspots.

Jeff Hiller, who owns The Arrangement furniture store at Elm and Good Latimer, agrees that the district has changed in the last couple of years.

"You can definitely characterize the neighborhood as in transition," said Mr. Hiller, whose store opened in 1988.

After the first of the year, he plans to close the Deep Ellum business and relocate to North Dallas. "That's virtually where all our business is now," Mr. Hiller said. "What was happening to the neighborhood made the decision a lot easier.

"The question now is what happens after we all leave?"

E-mail stevebrown@dallasnews.com

[gc]

This is a shame.

[dallastophoenix]

I'm just curious... aren't residential units still being added in deep ellum? Are all of those people driving into Uptown to shop, instead of walking around the corner? I've missed this part of the city when I visit, so I haven't personally seen the activity lessen... has anyone else noticed this trend?

[gc]

Yes, but a large percentage right now. There are, however, tons of townhomes being biuilt just north of Deep Ellum along Ross and Live Oak Streets. I think now is the best time to be down there actually.

[gc]

Deep Ellum hot spots entertain a wide range of cultures
07:54 PM CDT on Friday, October 24, 2003
By TERESA GUBBINS / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/latestnews...lum.4f8a5.html

The time is Saturday night. The place is Main Street, the hottest strip in Deep Ellum.

A string of clubs runs along the street, little pearls of energy and noise. Reggae music bleeds out from Nairobi. At Club Indigo, a rock band blazes on stage. Lazerz, a dance club, pulses.

The line outside Lazerz is a worldly mix, from the well-manicured Hispanic couple up front to the pair of young African-American women, dressed to the nines, at the end.

Diversity is exactly why Ingrid B, 23, a native of Guatemala City who goes by "B" for her last name, is here.

"I like Lazerz because it's a mixed crowd – it's not just one race," she says.

Patrons such as Ingrid, along with a new round of business owners, have changed the face of Deep Ellum, transforming downtown's major entertainment zone from the mostly white punk-rock center it was in the '90s into an ethnically diverse scene.

The transformation reflects the area's growing appeal and broader audience, as well as larger changes in popular music.

"There are more places and bigger crowds, and it's definitely more diverse," says Doug Simmons, who's been a club owner and manager in Deep Ellum for 15 years. "It used to be all kind of an alternative audience. Now it's every aspect down there: urban, funk, rock, punk, under-age clubs and restaurants aimed at older crowds."

This four-street grid between Elm and Canton had its first rise in the '20s with blues artists such as Blind Lemon Jefferson. In the '50s, tradesmen moved in; some, like Pop Engle Auto Glass, are still there. In the late '80s, it became a place to see punk and alternative bands perform live.

But the punks cleared out in the late '90s, says Dale Brock, a former talent buyer who booked many Deep Ellum clubs.

"People that used to be part of the '90s live-music scene have grown up," he says.

That includes folks such as Colleen Bradford of Dallas, a music fan who spent many a weekend in the '90s in Deep Ellum.

"We all used to hang out there, but it's just splintered off," she says. "I still do go and see occasional shows. But I'm 41 now, and I don't have that drive to go out and check out new bands anymore. I'm just too involved in my own thing."

The trend in Deep Ellum, says Mr. Brock, is dance clubs, where the only entertainment is a DJ spinning records.

"This generation of clubgoers is much more about being a part of a scene than watching who is on the stage," he says.

Young clubgoers have broader tastes in music, having grown up listening to a wider spectrum: hip-hop, techno, rock, pop. Dance clubs play it all.

Niya Brown of Dallas, 25, started going to Deep Ellum about two years ago. She hits the dance clubs: Lazerz, the Palm Beach Club, Nairobi.

"The good clubs play all genres – old rap, old pop, techno, a little bit of rock," she says. "On Saturdays, it's a lot of singles, a lot of hot guys and all different colors. I don't date other races, but I like to mingle."

Dance clubs outnumber live-music standbys such as Club Dada, Trees, Club Clearview, the Galaxy Club and the Curtain Club.

"When I first moved into Deep Ellum there were three dance clubs – there are at least 12 now," says Paulie DiBiase, who owned Paulie's, a small bar on Elm, for four years and now owns Club Indigo.

Those include Lazerz, Chrome, the Chocolate Bar, DNA, Palm Beach, the Shadow Lounge, Bacano, Fever, Club Shiznit and the longest-running duo, the Bone and Club One.

Dance music and live performance are different scenes, Mr. DiBiase says.

"Dance clubs attract 18- to 20-year-olds," he says. "And there's an aggressiveness. Deep Ellum is turning into a place where the youngsters come out."

Clubs are changing hands as well, with veterans such as Jeffrey Yarbrough, who owned the Club Clearview complex for 18 years, being replaced by a more diverse group.

"I raised a full generation of kids through this nightclub world," says Mr. Yarbrough, 40. "It got to where I was checking the IDs of kids that weren't even born when we opened. They say cats have nine lives – nightclubs average about two years. At this point, my dream is not to sell to 18-year-old kids."

The new entrepreneurs include Marvin Michaels and Joseph Fox, a pair of young African-American stand-up comedians who opened Sweet 103, a comedy lounge at Main and Murray. They host poetry nights, book club readings and touring comedians such as Pat Brown and Juan Villareal.

"Deep Ellum has all these creative arts venues – comedy is an art form, too," Mr. Michaels says.

One of the draws of their location was its diversity. Next door is Meke Stephens Salon, an upscale hair salon that specializes in ethnic hair; down the street is a small graphic design company.

"Deep Ellum is a little bit of everything now," Mr. Michaels says. "Nationalities, lifestyles, homeless, people living large, business owners – it's pretty diverse."

Patrons come from all over, not just Dallas, says Sean Wisdom, executive director of the Deep Ellum Association.

"We did a cruising sting operation with the Dallas Police Department, to enforce the cruising ordinance," he says. "Cars were coming in from Sherman, Oklahoma City, Abilene, Fort Worth, every outlying city in the Metroplex. We're a cruising hot spot."

Cruising has been cited as a contributing factor to an increase in crime in the area. Statistics from the Police Department show that crime increased this summer by 36 percent. The most common offenses – individual robberies and car burglaries.

"The perspective of people who've been down here a long time is that this summer was worse than it's been in a long time," Mr. Wisdom says. "Supposedly the West End had a similar problem six or seven years ago. I'm not sure whether it mutated into Deep Ellum or whether it's the changing nature of the world we live in."

But some Deep Ellum veterans see the crime merely as a direct reflection of the increase in business. In other words, more customers bring a proportionate increase in crime.

"When 2 o'clock in the morning comes around and you have 2,000 people coming out of clubs, there's going to be some of that activity," Mr. Simmons says. "But that's wherever you go in Dallas."

In mid-August, the Police Department increased the number of officers patrolling Deep Ellum on weekend nights from 14 to 48. It also reinstituted the practice of blocking the streets off after midnight.

"There's always a big group of people out there who go cruising on the weekends," says Scott Beggs, manager of the Gypsy Tea Room. "They get run off of Forest Lane, which is the major area in Dallas for cruising, and go to whatever street's next."

Blocking off the streets already has improved the situation, according to club owners and the police.

"It has improved to the point where we don't have to bring in all these additional resources from other patrol divisions," says Lt. Vincent Golbeck, who oversees the central business district. "We're still working with Deep Ellum stakeholders to make sure the neighborhood stays safe but doesn't look like it's overkill out there."

A bigger problem, some say, goes back to the dance clubs and the late-night hours they keep.

"Where the crime comes into play is that these dance clubs have after-hours permits to stay open until 4 a.m.," Mr. DiBiase says. "You've got all these young kids rolling down here between 1:30 and 4 a.m. And nothing good happens after 2."

Most Deep Ellum venues close at 2 a.m., the point at which alcohol no longer can be served. But for the dance clubs, the most profitable hours are between midnight and 4 a.m., even without alcohol sales. Underage kids who can't drink anyway are more than happy to pay $10 for a place to hang out in the wee hours.

"I personally think we would solve a lot of problems if they didn't allow clubs to stay open until 4 a.m.," Mr. Simmons says. "It's not easy to get everybody into one area and have them all get along. They all have so many different tastes. At the same time, that's what makes Deep Ellum so cool."

That coolness attracted the current wave of entrepreneurs, such as Ken Muthoka, owner of Nairobi, and Ehab Elsaadi, who owns Velvet Hookah, a smoking lounge where patrons inhale flavored tobacco through a hookah pipe.

"I've always thought Dallas was uptight, with everyone wanting to live and breathe around their circle and not meet anybody else," says Mr. Elsaadi. "Being an Egyptian, you feel that sometimes when you're out. If I feel it, I'm sure a lot of people feel it, too, whether they're black, Mexican, fat, short, average or beautiful."

Mr. Muthoka, who moved to Dallas in 1990, opened Nairobi a year ago. He'd looked at other neighborhoods such as Northwest Highway near Bachman Lake and Marsh Lane.

"But if we had gone there, we would have had to depend on the Kenyan community to stay in business," he says. He estimates the Kenyan population in Dallas to be nearly 6,000 people.

"When we started, probably 80 percent of our customers were Kenyan," he says. "We still get a good number, probably 30 or 40 percent. So we have our Kenyan community but also the Deep Ellum community.

"I wanted to have a place where Kenyans could come and meet, but also where everyone – Africans, Americans, black, white, Indians – could get a dose of Kenyan African music, as well as salsa, calypso and reggae. I thought Deep Ellum would be a good place."

E-mail tgubbins@dallasnews.com

[psukhu]

Work on that line – which has two Deep Ellum stops – is set to start in 2007.

I think there will be a construction boom a year or two before the stations open.

[aceplace]

I thought that the line will be in SERVICE by 2007. It was originally set to open in 2006, but the opening date was pushed forward in time one year due to the sales tax crunch.

[evdallas]

We really need the deep ellum stops, I think that would add tons to the nightlife. would be nice if you were staying downtown somewhere and took the lightrail to deep ellum.

[tamtagon]

The next transition (Deep Ellum has always been in transition) I hope happens will be a return of live music venues. But of course, whatever is popular with the 20-somethings in Dallas will manifest in Deep Ellum, and right now, dance clubs with pre-recorded music is the favored venue. If Dallas is going to compete with other cities in the region as an incubator for musicians, Deep Ellum (or another "funky" part of town) will need a strong live music scene.

Back in the 80s, there was nothing going on on Main St., most of the activity was on Elm. Truely, Deep Ellum has grown, and will continue to grow, and so should the multi-cultural quality of the area. Deep Ellum as it is today, could support the illusive youth hostel.

I remember when Cafe Brazil opened, it seemed so much more appropriate than the southwestern furniture store up the street. As long as the rent is cheap, the area's shops/stores will continue to have a fair amount of turnover - hopefully that will happen for decades to come. Having a popular area like Deep Ellum is excellent for individual with unique business ideas.

[aceplace]

Good point, Tamtagon, that an area with cheap rents is a good incubator for innovation...

As far as the live music scene degenerating into a dance music venue... hey, that may be good... I love dance music, and other kinds of stuff in that genre, liike Trance, Chillout, etc... 4 guitars and a drummer somehow doesn't do it for me anymore...

The music is no less innovative if you create it on a computer instead of a conventional musical instrument.

Creating neighborhoods is something that Dallas does very well... Maybe in the future, we'll see some new innovative districts crop up, places with cheap rents and a little bit of urban interest... we've created some good ones so far, we'll create some more.