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Thread: DFW wants to be the premier airport in the global marketplace

  1. #251
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    What makes this especially troubling (the departure of the Mexicans) is that Mexicana is in an extremely tight code sharing alliance with American Airlines.

    Indeed, Mexicana flies to every other American Airlines hub city: Miami, Chicago, New York and Los Angeles.

    Maybe if the DFW Airport Board spent less time harassing major Dallas-based corporations they would have more time to focus on cultivating other carriers and trying to create a more hospitable operating climate.

  2. #252
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    This might be slightly off topic, but how many of us stick to our guns and support other carriers by doing everything possible to NOT fly on AA from DFW? I recently have begun doing so, I'm just curious as to how many others are "suffering" through transfers, long taxi times, etc. to not give AA their money. I flew back to NYC on United (had to transfer at O'Hare, obviously) and the flight was probably just half full, maybe less, though much more enjoyable than any AA flight I can remember. They even still give you free snacks!

  3. #253
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    People fly American because they can get you almost anywhere more times per day than anyone else. I have only flown AA once and it was not a bad experience at all. How bad is it to wait a bit longer for the plane to get to the runway anyway? You could be driving to your destination but instead you are relaxing in a plane. Come on people you can't expect super fast turnarounds at an airport that has over 1000 departures per day compared to the 250 or so daily flighs WN has out of its biggest hub. People who make the turnaround comparison are being unrealistic and unfair to AA and all other carriers who choose to service DFW or any large, busy airport for that matter! I bet if you saw a comparison of turnaround times you would find that on average the airlines are not far apart when it comes to taxi times and WN has a big advantage in most markets because it serves airports that are not near as busy as DFW, ATL or O'Hare. Dont get me wrong WN has a great strategy but they dont have the reach that other carriers provide.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    This might be slightly off topic, but how many of us stick to our guns and support other carriers by doing everything possible to NOT fly on AA from DFW? I recently have begun doing so, I'm just curious as to how many others are "suffering" through transfers, long taxi times, etc. to not give AA their money. I flew back to NYC on United (had to transfer at O'Hare, obviously) and the flight was probably just half full, maybe less, though much more enjoyable than any AA flight I can remember. They even still give you free snacks!
    I'm doing it now. I flew America West to Arizona at Christmas and will use them again to go to Vegas this month and will use SW anywhere I can. America West has great fares so that choice is easy. AA was twice the price on both flights.

  5. #255
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    You mean US Airways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    You mean US Airways.
    No, he meant America West as they're the one that does AZ. Perhaps one day they'll get it worked out to where he can say US Airways, but if you walk to the counter for US Airways (as I did the other day) they'll tell you they can't help you here, walk over to America West. The E-ticket checkins fail as well.

    Jason

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    This might be slightly off topic, but how many of us stick to our guns and support other carriers by doing everything possible to NOT fly on AA from DFW? I recently have begun doing so SNIP
    I did so the other day to St. Louis. American matched SW fare but I chose SW instead despite the fact that I collect AA miles. I think I'll do it again too.

    The other day I was on an AA flight to Montreal and they didn't even hand out peanuts! They're really reaching to cut costs. I don't think they've made money since about 2000, and they seem to be scraping the barrel.

    Jason

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    I fly to Orange County every week on AA. If you are in coach there is nothing for free except a soda. You can purchase a snack box that has a nasty sausage stick. I flew to ABQ on SW last week--they handed out peanuts and a breakfast bar. Beer is $3 and cocktails are $4... on AA both are $5.

  9. #259
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    FortWorthGuy, I'm aware that American is more convenient from DFW than any other airline. That's why I'm asking the questions. Most of us here seem to think that American dominating DFW and doing their best to crush competition through underhanded tactics is a bad thing. The way, as I see it, to stop that is by flying to and from DFW on AA's competition, to encourage them to expand their flights and maye encourage more airlines to come in and provide more options. Which will only do the consumer well.

    When I flew out on United, it meant that I had to transfer in Chicago and leave a little earlier than I wanted to and get in a little bit later. The plane had to taxi all the way around the airport (American is positioned so that I've rarely had a long taxi on their flights), which took quite a while, but provided quite the view. So yes, it was not as convenient, and I understand that the convenience you quote is enticing, and probably why so many choose American. I'm just curious as to how many on here try to fly other airlines, since I've just recently begun to do so.

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    Another option is to fly Continental out of Love and transfer in Houston.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonDallas
    No, he meant America West as they're the one that does AZ. Perhaps one day they'll get it worked out to where he can say US Airways, but if you walk to the counter for US Airways (as I did the other day) they'll tell you they can't help you here, walk over to America West. The E-ticket checkins fail as well.

    Jason
    It does seem like this merger is taking an awful long time but the flights have been ok so far. I like the AW planes but the USAir planes are ugly. I hope they don't paint everything in USAir colors.

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    ^Scratch that, I did some looking into it. The merger has been complete for months but the two airlines will maintain seperate operating certificates for the next 2-3 years until the FAA grants approval to combine them into one. So I guess we will see both airlines for some time to come.

  13. #263
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    Much as I would like to boycott AA, I am so close to the million-mile mark of permanent Gold Elite status that I just can't.

    A few years ago, I flew America West as a cheap alternative to PHX, LAX, LAS,ONT and even SFO. Got enough miles for a few free trips. Finally their frequent PHX stops ( I would try for Vegas) and changes got to me. However I got to know a bartender in Phoenix who would make an extra strong Bloody for me when she saw me coming in...

  14. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    FortWorthGuy, I'm aware that American is more convenient from DFW than any other airline. That's why I'm asking the questions. Most of us here seem to think that American dominating DFW and doing their best to crush competition through underhanded tactics is a bad thing. The way, as I see it, to stop that is by flying to and from DFW on AA's competition, to encourage them to expand their flights and maye encourage more airlines to come in and provide more options. Which will only do the consumer well.

    When I flew out on United, it meant that I had to transfer in Chicago and leave a little earlier than I wanted to and get in a little bit later. The plane had to taxi all the way around the airport (American is positioned so that I've rarely had a long taxi on their flights), which took quite a while, but provided quite the view. So yes, it was not as convenient, and I understand that the convenience you quote is enticing, and probably why so many choose American. I'm just curious as to how many on here try to fly other airlines, since I've just recently begun to do so.
    I though you were talking about DFW taxi times. My apologies. Your exactly right! AA needs competition as I see it WN will eventually win the Wright fight and have the law wiped off the books. When that happens American will match fares. WN will probably make Love its busiest airport (the have been drooling at this prospect for decades IMHO). They might violate the master plan and more airlines might follow suit. It would be a big fight if they wanted to add gates ect and cost is an issue not to mention the lawsuits that will go along with that but the Master Plan is not law. Anyway back to my point. When that happens DFW will benefit as well because the fares there on many routes will drop. The smaller markets will still be high priced because most of the other airlines do not serve those markets from DFW but we will see more options and more traffic. Airlines will not feel so threatened with AA because they will have their hands tied with competing with WN and other carriers. What needs to happen is WN and the carriers at DFW need to sort of gang up on AA and force them to drive their prices down. More airlines will come, more passengers will fly through both Love and DFW and everybody will win. Its insane that DFW is loosing carriers because the location is so perfect and the amenities are top rate world class! Wright needs to go away fast! Look at how well Chicago does with its two airports. DFW needs to realize that Wright is hurting them and taking it away could possibly mean that more people pass through its gates than any other airport in the world.

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geaux Tigers
    I wonder what measures United and American will take in Chicago to try and get the "World's Busiest Airport" title back at O'Scare?

    If only another airline would step up, build a hub, and take on AA at DFW, we could have that title here.

    The problem that DFW has is that the Dallas city proper is no longer what it used to be. It no longer has the convention business, the retail business (it had more store space per person than anywhere else in the world at one time). The trademart isn't what it used to be. A lot of lightening that Dallas once had in the bottle has been let out of the bottle, not by political leftwinged nuts per se, but by Dallas hating weirdos who seem to have aducted the city. Instead of business being spouted by city leaders, people hear more about racism. Fair Park is crumbling and the "Southwest" Cowboys moved out of the city to be next to the Texas Rangers. Now the OU/Texas game might follow them. In no time it seems that the prime center of the DFW area, the city of Dallas that is, has become a rotten apple that has tarnished the whole metropolitan area. Although the metro train is one of the few great recent acheivements by the city of Dallas, I don't think it would take much to see another fright flight to the suburbs.

  16. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster
    I like the AW planes but the USAir planes are ugly. I hope they don't paint everything in USAir colors.
    Plan is to have all aircracft painted in USScare colors by the end of 2006.

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    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    The problem that DFW has is that the Dallas city proper is no longer what it used to be. It no longer has the convention business, the retail business (it had more store space per person than anywhere else in the world at one time). The trademart isn't what it used to be. A lot of lightening that Dallas once had in the bottle has been let out of the bottle, not by political leftwinged nuts per se, but by Dallas hating weirdos who seem to have aducted the city. Instead of business being spouted by city leaders, people hear more about racism. Fair Park is crumbling and the "Southwest" Cowboys moved out of the city to be next to the Texas Rangers. Now the OU/Texas game might follow them. In no time it seems that the prime center of the DFW area, the city of Dallas that is, has become a rotten apple that has tarnished the whole metropolitan area. Although the metro train is one of the few great recent acheivements by the city of Dallas, I don't think it would take much to see another fright flight to the suburbs.
    I dont know about that........Dallas does have a bad rap but the city will bounce back. Fort Worth's future is very promising.

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    ^ I agree that Dallas has been greatly diminished over the past decade, but I see that trend changing already. World class restaurants and stores are returning to Dallas. The Northpark expansion will be a huge retail boon, as will the expansion of the West Village and the creation of Victory. Downtown is allowing for the creation of several small, home-grown, high-class clothing stores. It's not out of line to presume that the "fashion triangle" will return in the next five years. Victory will be a magnet for the wealthy, and so I expect to see a crop of extremely over-priced "classy" stores open there. Nobu at the Crescent and all of the restaurants/bars opening in Victory are integral steps to put Dallas on a top-tier level for nightlife. The Arts District is well on its way to become the regional (perhaps even national) draw that it was envisioned to be. Yes, convention business is down, but it seems to me that Dallas is well on its way to be one of those rare cities that can attract visitors on its own merit, not merely because of business or conventions.

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster
    ^Scratch that, I did some looking into it. The merger has been complete for months but the two airlines will maintain seperate operating certificates for the next 2-3 years until the FAA grants approval to combine them into one. So I guess we will see both airlines for some time to come.
    Plan is to switch everthing over to USAir logos, paperwork, ect. ASP. Use up the present stock of AW supplies, answer the phones as USAir, in general AW looks are going away fast. That is the plan.......

    However I still say the USScare culture is too ingrained and will kill the combo in the end. The infusion of cash the merger raised will only stall off the demise of the combo for a couple of years.

  20. #270
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    Quote from article:

    For officials at D/FW, the departure of the airlines is the latest example that American’s massive hub is a double-edged sword, consultant Klaskin said. While it provides and enormous amount of traffic and passengers to the airport, it also discourages new competitors.
    Duh!

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    The problem that DFW has is that the Dallas city proper is no longer what it used to be. It no longer has the convention business, the retail business (it had more store space per person than anywhere else in the world at one time). The trademart isn't what it used to be. A lot of lightening that Dallas once had in the bottle has been let out of the bottle, not by political leftwinged nuts per se, but by Dallas hating weirdos who seem to have aducted the city. Instead of business being spouted by city leaders, people hear more about racism. Fair Park is crumbling and the "Southwest" Cowboys moved out of the city to be next to the Texas Rangers. Now the OU/Texas game might follow them. In no time it seems that the prime center of the DFW area, the city of Dallas that is, has become a rotten apple that has tarnished the whole metropolitan area. Although the metro train is one of the few great recent acheivements by the city of Dallas, I don't think it would take much to see another fright flight to the suburbs.

    Boo. I disagree
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  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    However I still say the USScare culture is too ingrained and will kill the combo in the end. The infusion of cash the merger raised will only stall off the demise of the combo for a couple of years.
    I'll have to agree with that. The labor culture at USAirways just seems to horribly incompatible with that of America West. I don't think they've come up yet with a solution on how to integrate the seniority lists of the two airlines, something that has traditionally been the undoing of plenty of airlines in the past (the Pan Am-National merger of 1979 being the worst case scenario).

  23. #273
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    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    . I'm just curious as to how many on here try to fly other airlines, since I've just recently begun to do so.
    I fly exclusively with Continental Airlines. It is the only US carrier I will fly. The first time I flew on Continental was out of Love Field when the started service in the late 1990s. I found the prefect airline and never looked back.

    Why I fly Continental out of Love?

    Love is closer to my house and I can get there 15-30mins before boarding and hop on my flight. There are no security lines, no check in lines, nothing. (NO LINES!!!) Continental operates everything themselves. I walk pass and always see the long security or check in lines for Southwest.

    I can get almost anywhere in the world from Love Field with my bag check straight to my final destination. You can by one ticket on Continental to anywhere in their network, (Something you can’t do with Southwest at Love).

    Continental fly to more cities worldwide than any other airline. Not to mention Continental is the only real legacy carrier left. They still have all the amenities while all the other legacy airlines have cut down to virtually no in flight service.

    Actually, we just got back from a vacation to Tobago in the Caribbean. We flew out of love in December on Continental, and they checked our Passports at Love and everything. We were booked all the way to Port of Spain, Trinidad. (It’s to most convenient way to get there from Dallas). Once there we took a plane the next day ona local carrier to Tobago. It is almost impossible to get a direct flight from the US to Tobago. (Funny how British Airways and Virgin Atlantic serves it non-stop from London.) We had the most baggage at Love. (Wife seemed to have packed half the house). It’s a more business flight than leisure DAL-to IAH (Houston on CO). It was a 6 hour non stop flight back to Houston.

    Also if you are One Pass Elite member you don’t have to wait in lines. You can check in at special check in at other airports and have your own boarding line at all gates on Continental. There is general boarding and Elite boarding.

    There is a Pappadeux in Terminal E in Houston (take the elevator up). I go there when ever I have enough time in between connection and crab lobster bisque and take it on the flight with me.

    If you get a Randall’s Remarkable card you can get miles for buying groceries at Tom Thumb and Simon David. We don’t shop at either store anymore because of Safeway. You can also get One Pass Miles with American Express Card on the Rewards program.

    I have only flown on Continental since they started service out of Love and have never looked back at DFW or American Airlines. They couldn’t pAAy me to fly AA. I think all the majors with the exception of Continental need to tack on “No Frills” to their name because that is what they have become. Hell Jet Blue a low cost carrier has better service (IFE) than most majors. Good luck with the IFE on American(MD-80), Delta, and Northwest (with all those DC 9)! Continental has traditionally done better than all the other majors (2001 and beyond) and not cut its in flight and customer service. (Could it be that serving food, having IFE, pillows, blankets, magazines, and generally not nickel and dime passengers for every little thing, and having great customer service might make people want to fly on a specific airline). The fine folks at Continental are doing a great job,and hopefully the other legacies or what is left of the legacy carries will learn something.
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    This might be slightly off topic, but how many of us stick to our guns and support other carriers by doing everything possible to NOT fly on AA from DFW? I recently have begun doing so, I'm just curious as to how many others are "suffering" through transfers, long taxi times, etc. to not give AA their money.
    We do it. I've even paid up to $20 extra per ticket to fly someone else out of DFW (in the past 2 years, that's been primarily United and Delta). This April we're taking a family vacation to Orlando and we're driving to Austin and flying Southwest out of Austin-Bergstrom to get the cheap flight and the nonstop on Southwest.

  25. #275
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    Where is UPS?

    Quote Originally Posted by gc
    Boo. I disagree

    The positives of Dallas still exist, they just exist way up north in the suburbs and continue moving that way. The problem is that the suburbs are fragmented and don't have the unity to challenge the anti-business being spouted by Dallas leaders--dirty laundry aired on the national and international stage. The positives I see in Dallas are the Art District, the commuter rail and all the rebuilding in and around downtown Dallas. But I was shocked to read recently that the pumps that pump water into the levees to protect all of this, are worn out. People used to say that the city of Dallas was run like a business and it worked better than Chicago -- known as the 'city that worked.' The whole city was maintained, not just the area around downtown. Now the city of Dalllas reminds me more of one of those socialized cities up in the rustbelt. If you think the Dallas of today compares with the one that established the North Texas area for what it is, then you are in denial. This is why traffic at DFW airport is shrinking. Because of all the political bickering in the Dallas proper, UPS chose to move to Atlanta. The Mavs Cuban has had his players wear jerseys that say DFW on them, not Dallas. One has to wonder if he now has regrets about deciding to move his team to an arena close to downtown Dallas, in that the city proper is off center in the metropolitan area and this certainly isn't the best way to protect it from getting another NBA team--one to Fort Worth perhaps--when its population goes over 7 million. A recent example of rotten core stupidity is the treatment that Mr. Hunt got from the mayor of Dallas. As rich Dallas residents get older, they quit thinking in strict business terms and they start thinking about leaving a legacy to the citizens of Dallas!
    Last edited by honestruerealman; 08 January 2006 at 12:48 PM.

  26. #276
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    How are any of the positives that you listed moving up to the suburbs? Obviously Mr. Cuban loves his location: He's getting an All Start game and hundred of millions of dollars of private development around his stadium, not to mention a train station for both light and commuter rail. And regardless of the Mayor's opinion, the city council gave Hunt what he wanted, so now we'll see who was right in how he handles his "part of the deal" and how much he gives back to downtown. With residential buildigns popping up left and right, high class dining and shopping destinations coming in, the average income of 75225 increasing still rapidly, I don't see how you can say in anyway that Dallas is going down right now. Pretty much everything in the city of Dallas is either staying constant or on the road to drastic improvement.

  27. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    But I was shocked to read recently that the pumps that pump water into the levees to protect all of this, are worn out.
    There are a ton of other cities that can say that, including NO before Katrina

    This is why traffic at DFW airport is shrinking. Because of all the political bickering in the Dallas proper
    Yeah that's the only reason. The one and only reason is Dallas. It has nothing to do with a monoloply at the airport, the high fares, or airport mismanagement. It's all the city of Dallas making this the third busiest airport in the country.

    One has to wonder if he now has regrets about deciding to move his team to an arena close to downtown Dallas, in that the city proper is off center in the metropolitan area and this certainly isn't the best way to protect it from getting another NBA team--one to Fort Worth perhaps--when its population goes over 7 million.
    That's absolutely assinine and stupid. Come back when you have something logical. I'm sure Cuban regrets building his arena in the hottest market in the area and perhaps state, amid what could be one of the greatest developments in the country within the last decade. Now if you want to tell me Dallas got screwed in the deal, I'll talk, but if you believe for one minute that he regrets that, then I'll send you to a junior high debate class.

    Edith and if you think that the magic number for getting another NBA team is 7 mil, I refer you to Chicago, whose DT is on the lakefront and absolutely not in the center of the area and is the third largest media market. They have one team. And coincedentaly enough, the fourth largest is San Fran/Oakland and they have one team.
    Last edited by FoUTASportscaster; 08 January 2006 at 04:56 PM.

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    Love is closer to my house and I can get there 15-30mins before boarding and hop on my flight. There are no security lines, no check in lines, nothing. (NO LINES!!!) Continental operates everything themselves. I walk pass and always see the long security or check in lines for Southwest.
    Few people fly Continental out of Love that is the reason you wait in no lines. If they were so good and so many people adored them as you do then you would be waiting in long lines and they would offer more service out of Love.

    I can get almost anywhere in the world from Love Field with my bag check straight to my final destination. You can by one ticket on Continental to anywhere in their network, (Something you can’t do with Southwest at Love).
    It's because you are flying to Houston (to connect) and that is within the Wright restrictions. Fly to their other hubs in Newark or Cleveland and you will be exiting security with your bags and re-checking them. I though the Wright restrictions applied to Love and not WN.

    Continental fly to more cities worldwide than any other airline. Not to mention Continental is the only real legacy carrier left. They still have all the amenities while all the other legacy airlines have cut down to virtually no in flight service.
    Also not a fact. Last time I checked Delta flew more places than Contitnental and even AA flies more places as well. Especially with their codeshare agreement with tons of foreign airlines. AA is the only legacy carrier truly left. Continental went bankrupt. Did you miss that?

    I have only flown on Continental since they started service out of Love and have never looked back at DFW or American Airlines. They couldn’t pAAy me to fly AA. I think all the majors with the exception of Continental need to tack on “No Frills” to their name because that is what they have become. Hell Jet Blue a low cost carrier has better service (IFE) than most majors. Good luck with the IFE on American(MD-80), Delta, and Northwest (with all those DC 9)! Continental has traditionally done better than all the other majors (2001 and beyond) and not cut its in flight and customer service. (Could it be that serving food, having IFE, pillows, blankets, magazines, and generally not nickel and dime passengers for every little thing, and having great customer service might make people want to fly on a specific airline). The fine folks at Continental are doing a great job,and hopefully the other legacies or what is left of the legacy carries will learn something.
    Just because you have experienced poor service with American doesn't mean they are terrrible all around. People on these message boards that complain about AA service are a minority among AA fliers. Every flight is not the same and you cannot assume all service is crappy based upon your personal experience on their flight. People on your same flight might have thought they got excellent service. Its a matter of personal opinion. AA is the worlds largest airline Continental is not. That speaks volumes. WN has lower fares and more service out of Love. This is why they have longer lines at Love. Continental has a very small presence at Love.
    Last edited by FortWorthGuy; 08 January 2006 at 05:00 PM.

  29. #279
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    ^ we're the minority because most AA fliers fly only AA. Were most 'dedicated' AA fliers to try another airline, I would put money on their switching to that other airline. AA really has provided me with the most unpleasant flights in the past few years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Few people fly Continental out of Love that is the reason you wait in no lines. If they were so good and so many people adored them as you do then you would be waiting in long lines and they would offer more service out of Love.
    CO was recently voted OAG Airline of the Year for the 2nd time - something NO US airline has ever done. And CO is the only true full service airline in the US still... magazines, newspapers, MEALS, IFE, pillows, and blankets FREE in COACH. The BusinessFirst product has been voted best US business class by CondeNast, among others for the 5+ year running. And they have up to 10 flts a day from DAL - quite impressive. For the reason they use 50 seat RJs, see below.

    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    It's because you are flying to Houston (to connect) and that is within the Wright restrictions. Fly to their other hubs in Newark or Cleveland and you will be exiting security with your bags and re-checking them. I though the Wright restrictions applied to Love and not WN.
    NOT true... b/c CO uses 50 seat RJs from DAL, the beyond ticketing restriction does NOT apply. CO can provide one-stop service anywhere they serve from DAL. You can fly DAL-NRT with one-stop in IAH on CO. I have used this service to go many places outside the Wright boundaries. You are correct CO does not fly to EWR or CLE from DAL, but even to IAH, you do not have to reticket like you would on WN. And since CO serves more international destinations from IAH than AA does from DFW, this is a very useful service.


    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Also not a fact. Last time I checked Delta flew more places than Contitnental and even AA flies more places as well. Especially with their codeshare agreement with tons of foreign airlines. AA is the only legacy carrier truly left. Continental went bankrupt. Did you miss that?
    CO bankrupt?? um, not since the mid 90s. They turned a profit in the 3rd quarter too. Something AA certainly did NOT do. You can verify this anywhere, so I'm not even going to bother finding a source. Again, you are incorrect. Also, CO indeed serves more TOTAL destinations on their OWN METAL than ANY airline in the world. They recently passed LH and BA. You forget total destinations include the US domestic market, which is huge. And as for total international destinations - again, check your facts. CO serves more total intl destinations than ANY us carrier. Again, this is verifiable. Look at CO in Mexico and Europe alone. AA has hardly any presence in Europe outside of LHR. CO serves over 20 transatlantic destinations alone. AA does not serve Berlin, Geneva, Tel Aviv, Lisbon, Hamburg, Oslo, Copenhagen, Belfast, Bristol, etc. for starters. Not to mention over 20 cities in Mexico CO serves from IAH, which is more than most Mexican carriers serve themselves! Then you forget about their Micronesia operation - where they serve more cities in Japan than ANY us carrier. Did you know CO even flies to Australia (Cairns) from their Guam hub? Sorry, you are WAY off here.

    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Just because you have experienced poor service with American doesn't mean they are terrrible all around. People on these message boards that complain about AA service are a minority among AA fliers. Every flight is not the same and you cannot assume all service is crappy based upon your personal experience on their flight. People on your same flight might have thought they got excellent service. Its a matter of personal opinion. AA is the worlds largest airline Continental is not. That speaks volumes. WN has lower fares and more service out of Love. This is why they have longer lines at Love. Continental has a very small presence at Love.
    CO does quite fine with it's "limited" presence at DAL. It continues to be the highest ranked legacy carrier. Try getting a meal on a 2 hour AA Eagle flight. good luck. you can't even get a free meal to Hawaii in coach on AA anymore!
    Last edited by DFW75209; 08 January 2006 at 08:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Few people fly Continental out of Love that is the reason you wait in no lines. If they were so good and so many people adored them as you do then you would be waiting in long lines and they would offer more service out of Love.


    Also not a fact. Last time I checked Delta flew more places than Contitnental and even AA flies more places as well. Especially with their codeshare agreement with tons of foreign airlines. AA is the only legacy carrier truly left. Continental went bankrupt. Did you miss that?
    The largest airline DOES NOT mean most destinations:

    Continental Airlines is the world's sixth-largest airline. Continental, together with Continental Express and Continental Connection, has more than 3,000 daily departures throughout the Americas, Europe and Asia, serving 151 domestic and 134 international destinations, more than any other carrier in the world. More than 400 additional points are served via SkyTeam alliance airlines, which include Aeromexico, Air France/KLM, Alitalia, CSA Czech Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Korean Air and Northwest Airlines. With over 42,000 employees, Continental has hubs serving New York, Houston, Cleveland and Guam, and together with Continental Express, carries approximately 60 million passengers per year. Continental consistently earns awards and critical acclaim for both its operation and its corporate culture. For more company information, visit continental.com.

    SOURCE Continental Airlines

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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    AA needs competition as I see it WN will eventually win the Wright fight and have the law wiped off the books. When that happens American will match fares. WN will probably make Love its busiest airport (the have been drooling at this prospect for decades IMHO). They might violate the master plan and more airlines might follow suit. It would be a big fight if they wanted to add gates ect and cost is an issue not to mention the lawsuits that will go along with that but the Master Plan is not law.
    Where in the world are you coming up with that? Let's say that Love Field became as busy as Hobby... that would still be well within Master Plan limits.

    It's difficult to envision any reasonable scenario in which Love Field becomes Southwest's busiest facility.

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    It's not about making American lose money, its about encouraging other airlines to fly at DFW. Do you have a problem with that? Of course we won't screw them over. They make most of their money on connecting flights through DFW anyway. I just want greater diversity there. No offence, but that last post sounded alot like a corporate plug.

    And I may have endured a connection, but I had a little more space and more than my fair share of snack packs, which in my book makes it well worth the trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by F4shionablecHa0s
    I also find that little fact about CO serving more destinations that any other carrier extremely hard to believe.
    Hard to believe, yes, but easily verifiable. Remember, the claim is most destinations served on their own metal, not including alliance partners. Of all the major carriers, CO is the least dependent on its alliance partners, choosing to fly its own metal instead where possible. For example, while UA and AA rely on LH and BA for connections within Europe, CO instead flies to 23+ cities itself and is adding at least 3 more this summer. While AA only flies to Tokyo (and recently Osaka) in Asia, CO flies HKG, PEK, NRT, and NGO from the mainland/Hawaii and through its Micronesia operation (wholly owned by CO), an additional 8 cities in Japan, among others.

    Of all the majors, DL, until recently, had one of the weakest international structures. They were strong in Europe, but lacking in Asia and Latin America. They have recently added more cities in Europe and announced a plan to pass CO as #2 in Latin America. Even if this happens, they will still be behind CO in Asia.

    UA:
    United Airlines (OTCBB: UALAQ.OB) operates more than 3,400 flights a day on United, United Express and Ted to more than 200 U.S. domestic and international destinations from its hubs in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago and Washington, D.C.
    www.united.com

    AA:
    American Airlines is the world's largest airline. American, American Eagle and AmericanConnection ® serve 250 cities in over 40 countries with more than 3,900 daily flights.
    www.aa.com

    DL: (notice DL does not break out its own operations from its partners because it is the weakest internationally - compare DL in Asia and Latin America to CO; they're on par in Europe)
    Delta Air Lines is the world’s second-largest airline in terms of passengers carried, offering daily flights to 505 destinations in 93 countries on Delta, Song, Delta Shuttle, the Delta Connection carriers and its worldwide partners.
    www.delta.com

    So CO's claim of 284+ destinations served on their metal doesn't seem implausible, when UA is claiming 200+ and AA 250...

    CO's route map:
    http://www.continental.com/travel/de...rld_200508.pdf

    this map doesn't include the recently launched IAH-EZE (Buenos Aires) and the new cities in Europe starting this summer. COs EWR-DEL started a few weeks before AA's ORD-DEL flight.

    The advantage IAH has over DFW is that since CO has less mainland hubs than AA, IAH is relatively more important in CO's intl operations. AA is already huge in Latin America, but unless a major expansion is announced that MIA cannot accommodate, I don't think DFW will surpass IAH as an international hub.
    Last edited by DFW75209; 09 January 2006 at 09:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UptownDallas
    Where in the world are you coming up with that? Let's say that Love Field became as busy as Hobby... that would still be well within Master Plan limits.

    It's difficult to envision any reasonable scenario in which Love Field becomes Southwest's busiest facility.
    Why is that? Are you CEO of WN. If you are then I would believe you. But you don't know their plans at Love. Their busiest airports in Las Vegas, Pheonix and Chicago have around 200+ departures per day. 250 for Las Vegas and 41 destinations from Las Vegas I think. I will get you the actual numbers later.

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    Those awards mean nothing to me. They are awarded from people I dont know and who dont share my opinions on what I see as a good airline. I am not praising AA but you cannot say one is better than the other based on an award. I fly so I don't have to drive and I could care less if I get an overpriced meal, movie, pillow ect. Even if my flight was 14 hours. I bring my own entertainment. I am just lucky to be in a plane and not driving a car through traffic or on a boat or train. Just get me there. That is all I care about. I am not like you. Lets agree to disagree on this one.

    I was not completely sure on what they flew out of Love. I thought they might be in the Wright Restrictions somehow. Thanks for informing me on this one. I thought that other carriers didnt have much success with these types of planes. AA crashed and burned using them so did Legend.

    Did you check every airline? I saw numbers for Delta & Northwest that were well over the numbers you just stated. They do serve alot of international destinations and more Mexican destinations than most. But I am not off like you stated. See below

    Delta: 900 destinations (w/ codeshare)
    AA: 570 (codeshare, one world alliance)
    Northwest: 750 (with codeshare)
    United: 360
    Continental: 680

    These numbers come from their websites and include codeshare and destinations served through alliances. Check for yourself you will have to do some digging.

    They like to use the big # so they can boast. Hard to find the actual destinations flown by the airlines on their sites.

    I was just making the point that because of their limited presence at Love that is why the lines were shorter. I was in no way trying to diminish their service. I would choose Continental over WN any day of the week because unlike WN they serve both Love and DFW.

    Again more people fly AA! They can't be that bad if they are the worlds largest airline. Continental is not. Why is that? Yes Continental filed bankruptcy in the 90's but they still did. AA did not and AA had done a great job of cutting cost and will probably turn a profit this year. Again its all a matter of personal opinion.
    Last edited by FortWorthGuy; 09 January 2006 at 11:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFW75209
    Hard to believe, yes, but easily verifiable. Remember, the claim is most destinations served on their own metal, not including alliance partners. Of all the major carriers, CO is the least dependent on its alliance partners, choosing to fly its own metal instead where possible. For example, while UA and AA rely on LH and BA for connections within Europe, CO instead flies to 23+ cities itself and is adding at least 3 more this summer. While AA only flies to Tokyo (and recently Osaka) in Asia, CO flies HKG, PEK, NRT, and NGO from the mainland/Hawaii and through its Micronesia operation (wholly owned by CO), an additional 8 cities in Japan, among others.

    Of all the majors, DL, until recently, had one of the weakest international structures. They were strong in Europe, but lacking in Asia and Latin America. They have recently added more cities in Europe and announced a plan to pass CO as #2 in Latin America. Even if this happens, they will still be behind CO in Asia.

    UA:
    United Airlines (OTCBB: UALAQ.OB) operates more than 3,400 flights a day on United, United Express and Ted to more than 200 U.S. domestic and international destinations from its hubs in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago and Washington, D.C.
    www.united.com

    AA:
    American Airlines is the world's largest airline. American, American Eagle and AmericanConnection ® serve 250 cities in over 40 countries with more than 3,900 daily flights.
    www.aa.com

    DL: (notice DL does not break out its own operations from its partners because it is the weakest internationally - compare DL in Asia and Latin America to CO; they're on par in Europe)
    Delta Air Lines is the world’s second-largest airline in terms of passengers carried, offering daily flights to 505 destinations in 93 countries on Delta, Song, Delta Shuttle, the Delta Connection carriers and its worldwide partners.
    www.delta.com

    So CO's claim of 284+ destinations served on their metal doesn't seem implausible, when UA is claiming 200+ and AA 250...

    CO's route map:
    http://www.continental.com/travel/de...rld_200508.pdf

    this map doesn't include the recently launched IAH-EZE (Buenos Aires) and the new cities in Europe starting this summer. COs EWR-DEL started a few weeks before AA's ORD-DEL flight.

    The advantage IAH has over DFW is that since CO has less mainland hubs than AA, IAH is relatively more important in CO's intl operations. AA is already huge in Latin America, but unless a major expansion is announced that MIA cannot accommodate, I don't think DFW will surpass IAH as an international hub.

    Good information. Thanks. You must have done some serious digging. Question. Do you see DFW seeing substantial international growth in the future? Why cant it surpass IAH? It is larger and has more room to grow. If Wright will ever go away more people will fly. The problem and advantage of DFW is AA. Its a double edged sword that prevents new airlines from starting service because they will crush anyone who lands on their turf but at the same time offers tons of destinations. I dont think any AA should have 86% of the market. Wright carved them a huge advantage here and they ran with it. Other hubs like ATL and ORD have two airlines hubbed which drives the prices down in those markets and CO competes with WN on domestic routes out of IAH (I forget if they are at Hobby too).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DFW75209
    CO was recently voted OAG Airline of the Year for the 2nd time - something NO US airline has ever done. And CO is the only true full service airline in the US still... magazines, newspapers, MEALS, IFE, pillows, and blankets FREE in COACH. The BusinessFirst product has been voted best US business class by CondeNast, among others for the 5+ year running. And they have up to 10 flts a day from DAL - quite impressive. For the reason they use 50 seat RJs, see below.



    NOT true... b/c CO uses 50 seat RJs from DAL, the beyond ticketing restriction does NOT apply. CO can provide one-stop service anywhere they serve from DAL. You can fly DAL-NRT with one-stop in IAH on CO. I have used this service to go many places outside the Wright boundaries. You are correct CO does not fly to EWR or CLE from DAL, but even to IAH, you do not have to reticket like you would on WN. And since CO serves more international destinations from IAH than AA does from DFW, this is a very useful service.




    CO bankrupt?? um, not since the mid 90s. They turned a profit in the 3rd quarter too. Something AA certainly did NOT do. You can verify this anywhere, so I'm not even going to bother finding a source. Again, you are incorrect. Also, CO indeed serves more TOTAL destinations on their OWN METAL than ANY airline in the world. They recently passed LH and BA. You forget total destinations include the US domestic market, which is huge. And as for total international destinations - again, check your facts. CO serves more total intl destinations than ANY us carrier. Again, this is verifiable. Look at CO in Mexico and Europe alone. AA has hardly any presence in Europe outside of LHR. CO serves over 20 transatlantic destinations alone. AA does not serve Berlin, Geneva, Tel Aviv, Lisbon, Hamburg, Oslo, Copenhagen, Belfast, Bristol, etc. for starters. Not to mention over 20 cities in Mexico CO serves from IAH, which is more than most Mexican carriers serve themselves! Then you forget about their Micronesia operation - where they serve more cities in Japan than ANY us carrier. Did you know CO even flies to Australia (Cairns) from their Guam hub? Sorry, you are WAY off here.



    CO does quite fine with it's "limited" presence at DAL. It continues to be the highest ranked legacy carrier. Try getting a meal on a 2 hour AA Eagle flight. good luck. you can't even get a free meal to Hawaii in coach on AA anymore!


    Thank you, thank you, and thank you!!! You save me some serious time from having to answer all those questions. You defiantly know your stuff. You know more than the general public at large. Are you a pilot, in the airline industry or a riddle grad? What’s even more amazing is you answer them the same way I would have eventually
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    Quote Originally Posted by F4shionablecHa0s
    Yeah, let's screw the hometown airline that pumps millions of dollars into our economy out of money. That really makes a whole lot of sense. Flying Southwest I can understand. Enduring connections just to hurt AA, therefore endangering jobs and tax money in the metroplex, I don't understand.
    I don’t endure connections to hurt AA. To me AA service is so bad; I rather connect with another airline I believe provides superior service.

    Dallas Love Field is much close to my house. I don’t want to drive to DFW. It’s too far, lines are too long, got fine a parking spot, long walk to the terminal, long taxi times, etc. It’s just too much. I like arriving at the airport 20 mins before my flight boards and still having 5 to 10 mins to spare before the plane boards.

    I am a very picky flyer. I always make sure to book a flight on newer airplanes and certain airplanes. If I could have it my way I’d prefer to fly on the 777 everywhere I go. (If only…)When I started to fly CO in the late 1990s, they had one of the youngest fleets in the nation. Their fleet is still young. (Younger than AA, Delta, NW, etc). I use to do a lot of work in Florida, still do some and I flew between DAL-MCO (Orlando) a lot. I purposely picked the flight with the 767-400 between IAH-MCO. It had PTVs! I hope they bring it back this spring, but I know CO is hurting for Wide-bodied for international routes. I also want and expect great customer service. (Something AA failed to do many times, so I stopped flying them.)

    I also like airlines that only fly Boeing. I’m not a big fan of Airbus. If I’m not in business class, I make sure to fly when they are severing food. To me the little things mean a lot, food, IFE, mags., pillow, blankets, etc. I may not use them, but at least CO is living up to its name “Legacy Carrier” and doing better than the other Legacy Carries too! CO is the ONLY US Legacy Carrier to maintain its level of service since September 11. It also does better financial that the rest of the legacies.

    Another reason I like CO, is that their business plan is working better than the legacy airlines. I believe companies should stick with what they know to do and be the best at it. It is when companies try to be something they are not that they lose their way. This happens time and time again in all industries. I have a problem when a legacy carrier who offers less in the way of service than some low cost carriers and yet charge legacy prices. I don’t believe in wasting money and I am sure not going to pay for a service that inferior when compared to another.
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  40. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Again more people fly AA! They can't be that bad if they are the worlds largest airline. Continental is not. Why is that? Yes Continental filed bankruptcy in the 90's but they still did. AA did not and AA had done a great job of cutting cost and will probably turn a profit this year. Again its all a matter of personal opinion.
    Being the worlds biggest doesn’t mean you’re the greatest company! Ask people in St. Louis what they think of AA. Wal-Mart is the world’s biggest company and I think they are a good company. But there are many people who will disagree with me. With all the people I hear moaning and griping about Wal-Mart you’d wonder how in the world are they the world’s biggest company.

    Continental doesn’t have to be the world’s biggest airline to be rated one of the best and preformed better financially.

    I have a little story I tell retail companies. You don’t have to be the biggest to be successful or show that customers like you more. You need to be the best at what you do.

    What are you accomplishing with low volume stores on every corner and stagnant SSS? I always use Neiman Marcus as an example. They are by no means the even close to the world’s largest department store, but kick every other department store you know what in Sales Per Square Foot & SSS. Other stores wish they could have a SPSF & SSS like Neimans. NM knows who they are, know who their customers are and market them and them alone. Wal-Mart may be the world’s largest retailer, but NM kills them in SPSF & SSS.

    CO is good at what they do, stick to it, and knows who they are. Back in the early 1990’s CO was one of the worst airlines!!! Then they got something that is RARE these days (A GOOD CEO). Gordon Bethune (brilliant man) turned CO around. He took that airline and made it from WORST to FIRST!!! A great book to read: “From Worst to First : Behind the Scenes of Continental's Remarkable Comeback”—Gordon Bethune turned Co around.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047...lance&n=283155

    In the late 1990’s and onwards, CO won award after award for various accomplishments. http://www.continental.com/company/profile/awards.asp

    In 2001 before September 11, 2001, CO was the only Legacy Carrier showing a profit for the year. After September 11, when all the legacy “lost their way” Gordon Bethune kept CO in order. CO did not start a low fare airline. CO did not cut amenities. CO held their ground and look at them now. They are doing better than any of the legacies. CO knows who they are and what they want to be! Going into the next few years it appears CO will continue to do better and kick the other Legacy carries in the behind as they focus on being what they are a FULL FARE LEGACY AIRLINE.

    CEO like that are few and far in between. People like (Larry Johnson—ABS, Gene Kahn--MAY, Steve Burd—SWY, take good companies and run them into the ground… and are paid millions to do so.)
    Last edited by LakeHighlands; 09 January 2006 at 06:48 PM.
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  41. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    I was not completely sure on what they flew out of Love. I thought they might be in the Wright Restrictions somehow. Thanks for informing me on this one. I thought that other carriers didnt have much success with these types of planes. AA crashed and burned using them so did Legend.
    No, AA and Legend used normal airplanes they retrofitted to meet Wright Restrictions. Legend retrofitted DC9 to hold 56 first class seats. American retrofitted Fokker 100 with first 56 first class seats. I had the opportunity to fly on both of these airplanes. I remember Legend couldn’t serve hot food on my flight. I think their galley did not meet some requirement. I think Legend was a great airline and would have made it if it weren’t for the outrageous start up cost, court battles, and AA. Funny thing AA got their AAsses handed to them by Southwest on the Austin route. They used an MD-80 on that route. I was also pissed at AA for forcing CO to shares it gates and added all the extra people to CO terminal.

    CO uses the Embraer RJ145 and 135 out of Love. All flights but one are on the 145. These are 50 seats regional jets



    The seats are all leather and the pitch of the seats on the A side are much more than a traditional aircraft. The means there is more room (seats more comfortable). ERJ are used by many airlines and are successful little planes. They are getting expensive to operate with higher fuel cost. CO is seeking to renegotiate its contract with Expressjet.

    CO is quite successful at Love M-F 12 Departures CO is the only airline flying DAL-IAH, WN dropped it last year. AA is coming to DAL, but not flying DAL-IAH, leaving CO to have the route to itself.
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

  42. #292
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeHighlands
    No, AA and Legend used normal airplanes they retrofitted to meet Wright Restrictions. Legend retrofitted DC9 to hold 56 first class seats. American retrofitted Fokker 100 with first 56 first class seats. I had the opportunity to fly on both of these airplanes. I remember Legend couldn’t serve hot food on my flight. I think their galley did not meet some requirement. I think Legend was a great airline and would have made it if it weren’t for the outrageous start up cost, court battles, and AA. Funny thing AA got their AAsses handed to them by Southwest on the Austin route. They used an MD-80 on that route. I was also pissed at AA for forcing CO to shares it gates and added all the extra people to CO terminal.

    CO uses the Embraer RJ145 and 135 out of Love. All flights but one are on the 145. These are 50 seats regional jets



    The seats are all leather and the pitch of the seats on the A side are much more than a traditional aircraft. The means there is more room (seats more comfortable). ERJ are used by many airlines and are successful little planes. They are getting expensive to operate with higher fuel cost. CO is seeking to renegotiate its contract with Expressjet.

    CO is quite successful at Love M-F 12 Departures CO is the only airline flying DAL-IAH, WN dropped it last year. AA is coming to DAL, but not flying DAL-IAH, leaving CO to have the route to itself.
    Its all a matter of personal opinion. You are aparently a much more high maintenance flyer than I am. That is fine but awards mean nothing to most people I know. I want you to get me there fast for a low price. I dont mind waiting a little longer at DFW because I enjoy that airport. Find me a major airport that is more passenger friendly. Love Field will not be the precious ghost town you speak of when Wright goes away. Enjoy your no wait times in line while you can. I know that just because an airline is the worlds largest doesnt make them the best but just because one wins an award and is praised by you doesnt mean they are the best either. Again its your personal opinon against mine. Love may be closer to you and thats fine but for me I would never drive all the way to the poor accessible Love Field. Love field offers me no advantages over DFW. I have never experienced a long wait time at DFW perhaps its when I fly but I havent. Just exactly how much better is CO performing than AA and the others (besides WN) financially? I have yet to read an artilcle stating such information.

    Its all about the Freedom of choice. Travelers at Love should be able to fly more places on larger planes. I have no doubt that you get excellent service on CO but have you tried all the other airlines cause you might like some of them too. Passenger numbers have a lot to do with how good an airline is. How can you not believe that? AA must offer a good product if so many people fly them. CO might have more destinations but do they fly the destinations they share with AA as frequently or do they fly alot of places that AA doesnt? On Earth the best one wins over the most people are you saying that most people are brainwashed to fly AA because they really dont want to? High volume means passengers like AA service or convenience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    You must have done some serious digging. Question. Do you see DFW seeing substantial international growth in the future? Why cant it surpass IAH? It is larger and has more room to grow. If Wright will ever go away more people will fly. The problem and advantage of DFW is AA. Its a double edged sword that prevents new airlines from starting service because they will crush anyone who lands on their turf but at the same time offers tons of destinations. I dont think any AA should have 86% of the market. Wright carved them a huge advantage here and they ran with it. Other hubs like ATL and ORD have two airlines hubbed which drives the prices down in those markets and CO competes with WN on domestic routes out of IAH (I forget if they are at Hobby too).
    Obviously DFW has the potential to surpass IAH. The metroplex has ~ half a million more people and the facilities are among the best in the world. However, I believe as long as AA is the dominant hub carrier at DFW and has hubs/focus cities in ORD, MIA, LAX, and JFK, I don't think we can expect to see a strong international focus at DFW. Like you said, its a double edged sword having the world's largest carrier hubbed here. Their other hub cities happen to be larger with more significant international demand. On top of that, the other cities are even better positioned geographically to pick up flow to their respective strong regions (e.g. ORD/JFK for Europe, MIA for Latin). IAH greatly benefits from CO being a smaller carrier than AA. It gets to take the role of MIA, essentially, for CO's Latin traffic. When CO adds an international flight, 99% of the time EWR or IAH will get it. That being said, it is interesting how IAH manages to attract foreign carriers when CO fiercly competes in a specific region. LH to FRA is fine - CO doesn't fly that route. But 2 carriers to Mexico? When CO serves more destinations to MEX from IAH than any other airport in the US has service to? Last I checked, CO serves almost 25 cities in Mexico from IAH (that's a lot more than AA serves from DFW). If it were about competition, shouldn't the Mexican carriers have favored DFW over IAH? And looking at the Euro carriers... CO flies 2X daily 777s to LGW, 1X daily 777 to CDG, and a 767 to AMS. That hasn't stopped BA from going 3X daily, AF 2X daily (in the summer), and KL 2X daily (1 being the all biz jet). On routes like these, where CO DOES fiercly compete for local traffic, we can't attribute IAH's greater service to a lack of competition from CO. Like I suggested in the other thread, I think when/if Air India decides to serve Texas, it could be a turning point for which ever airport they pick. If they still pick IAH in the face of all the existing European carrier competition, I think DFW will remain the 2nd international airport in Texas after IAH for at least a few more years.

  44. #294
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Its all a matter of personal opinion. You are aparently a much more high maintenance flyer than I am. That is fine but awards mean nothing to most people I know. I want you to get me there fast for a low price. I dont mind waiting a little longer at DFW because I enjoy that airport. Find me a major airport that is more passenger friendly. Love Field will not be the precious ghost town you speak of when Wright goes away. Enjoy your no wait times in line while you can. I know that just because an airline is the worlds largest doesnt make them the best but just because one wins an award and is praised by you doesnt mean they are the best either. Again its your personal opinon against mine. Love may be closer to you and thats fine but for me I would never drive all the way to the poor accessible Love Field. Love field offers me no advantages over DFW. I have never experienced a long wait time at DFW perhaps its when I fly but I havent. Just exactly how much better is CO performing than AA and the others (besides WN) financially? I have yet to read an artilcle stating such information.

    Its all about the Freedom of choice. Travelers at Love should be able to fly more places on larger planes. I have no doubt that you get excellent service on CO but have you tried all the other airlines cause you might like some of them too. Passenger numbers have a lot to do with how good an airline is. How can you not believe that? AA must offer a good product if so many people fly them. CO might have more destinations but do they fly the destinations they share with AA as frequently or do they fly alot of places that AA doesnt? On Earth the best one wins over the most people are you saying that most people are brainwashed to fly AA because they really dont want to? High volume means passengers like AA service or convenience.
    I agree with you that awards mean nothing to most people. However constant measures of performance count a lot! Even if the average guy does not know the measured numbers, if they travel much they can tell the difference in the performance.

    The DOT has been keeping records for many years now, and there are very few airlines that are CONSTANTLY at or near the top of the scale in several or all categories. Here are the latest (top 10) numbers. If anyone cares to see past performance, the info is on the posted website. What one can clearly see is that over the years only a couple of airlines CONSTANTLY rise to the top of the measurement charts.

    01-09-2006 | November DOT Statistics

    The top performers in each category of the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Air Travel Consumer Report for November 2005 are listed under "Full Story." Expanded information can be found under the About SWA tab > DOT Statistics. The Air Travel Consumer Report can be viewed in full online at http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/index.htm.

    COMPLAINTS (PER 100,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. ExpressJet 0.07
    2. Southwest 0.08
    3. JetBlue 0.23
    4. Skywest 0.28
    5. America West 0.45
    6. Alaska 0.52
    7. Comair 0.54
    8. Northwest 0.58
    9. Frontier 0.59
    10. Hawiian 0.61

    ONTIME PERFORMANCE (PERCENT)
    1. Hawaiian 95.2
    2. Frontier 85.3
    3. America West 85.2
    4. Independence 84.4
    5. Southwest 84.0
    6. US Airways 82.7
    7. ATA 81.7
    8. Skywest 81.3
    9. United 81.2
    10. American 79.9

    BAGGAGE HANDLING (PER 1,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. Independence 2.15
    2. Hawaiian 2.62
    3. AirTran 3.04
    4. United 3.24
    5. JetBlue 3.35
    6. Continental 3.49
    7. Frontier 3.74
    8. Alaska 3.76
    9. ATA 3.85
    10. Southwest 4.16

  45. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    I agree with you that awards mean nothing to most people. However constant measures of performance count a lot! Even if the average guy does not know the measured numbers, if they travel much they can tell the difference in the performance.

    The DOT has been keeping records for many years now, and there are very few airlines that are CONSTANTLY at or near the top of the scale in several or all categories. Here are the latest (top 10) numbers. If anyone cares to see past performance, the info is on the posted website. What one can clearly see is that over the years only a couple of airlines CONSTANTLY rise to the top of the measurement charts.

    01-09-2006 | November DOT Statistics

    The top performers in each category of the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Air Travel Consumer Report for November 2005 are listed under "Full Story." Expanded information can be found under the About SWA tab > DOT Statistics. The Air Travel Consumer Report can be viewed in full online at http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/index.htm.

    COMPLAINTS (PER 100,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. ExpressJet 0.07
    2. Southwest 0.08
    3. JetBlue 0.23
    4. Skywest 0.28
    5. America West 0.45
    6. Alaska 0.52
    7. Comair 0.54
    8. Northwest 0.58
    9. Frontier 0.59
    10. Hawiian 0.61

    ONTIME PERFORMANCE (PERCENT)
    1. Hawaiian 95.2
    2. Frontier 85.3
    3. America West 85.2
    4. Independence 84.4
    5. Southwest 84.0
    6. US Airways 82.7
    7. ATA 81.7
    8. Skywest 81.3
    9. United 81.2
    10. American 79.9

    BAGGAGE HANDLING (PER 1,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. Independence 2.15
    2. Hawaiian 2.62
    3. AirTran 3.04
    4. United 3.24
    5. JetBlue 3.35
    6. Continental 3.49
    7. Frontier 3.74
    8. Alaska 3.76
    9. ATA 3.85
    10. Southwest 4.16
    More operations = more chance for there to be delay's, lost baggage and complaints from more customers. If the top tier airlines on those list (which I noticed are some of the smaller ones and not the large legacy carriers like AA, United, Delta & Continental) operated networks as large as the legacy carriers then you can count on them being near the bottom of the list too. In other words AA and the others have tons more operations daily which presents the potential for something to not go as planned more frequently that those who do not conduct as many operations per day. Legacy carriers have a lot more to keep up with and do the best they can to accomodate their passengers just like the smaller ones do.

  46. #296
    honestruerealman
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    Go on a chat line and just ask people what they think of Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster
    There are a ton of other cities that can say that, including NO before Katrina



    Yeah that's the only reason. The one and only reason is Dallas. It has nothing to do with a monoloply at the airport, the high fares, or airport mismanagement. It's all the city of Dallas making this the third busiest airport in the country.



    That's absolutely assinine and stupid. Come back when you have something logical. I'm sure Cuban regrets building his arena in the hottest market in the area and perhaps state, amid what could be one of the greatest developments in the country within the last decade. Now if you want to tell me Dallas got screwed in the deal, I'll talk, but if you believe for one minute that he regrets that, then I'll send you to a junior high debate class.

    Edith and if you think that the magic number for getting another NBA team is 7 mil, I refer you to Chicago, whose DT is on the lakefront and absolutely not in the center of the area and is the third largest media market. They have one team. And coincedentaly enough, the fourth largest is San Fran/Oakland and they have one team.

    Excuse me, but you have gotten way off the focus of the topic. Please try to concentrate on the question, which is why DFW airport has fallen so far behind both the airports of Atlanta and Chicago. The airport has suffered because of how people view the DFW area and, unfortunately, the city proper of Dallas has more influence on how the national and international media views the area, than do other cities of the area. The DFW airport used to be an institution which everyone depended on to expand, like the Convention business used to be, the Market business used to be, the retail business used to be, the Texas/OU game and on and on. However, Dallas today has developed a social agenda which is antibusiness and, for whatever reasons, has been neglecting its infrastructure to the point that the pumps in the levee system of the Trinity River may not be able to keep water from flooding all these wonderful things going on in and around downtown. When I was a youngster growing up in Oak Cliff, I certainly remember when the city did a better job of taking care of the whole city, not just downtown. Granted, no city is perfect, but the leaders of Dallas need to realize that they are salesmen and ambassadors for the city and when they say negative things, whether they are true or not, about their own city, it has negative effects like fewer jobs and money for its citizens. In regards to Cuban and the location of his team, I was just musing at the possibility that if he had to do it over again, if he might choose Arlington as the best centrally located place to base his team. Chicago is not a good example, because it is up against a large lake and so the team is properly centrally located there. Plus the Bucks aren't far away. In the middle of the San Fransico area is a large bay. Texas is going to have millions of new people and it wouldn't surprise me if teams start considering Fort Worth as a possible place to move to--which is equal to or larger than the San Antonio metropolitan area.

  47. #297
    honestruerealman
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    Dallas isn't selling the metropolitan area, it is rotting it

    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    How are any of the positives that you listed moving up to the suburbs? Obviously Mr. Cuban loves his location: He's getting an All Start game and hundred of millions of dollars of private development around his stadium, not to mention a train station for both light and commuter rail. And regardless of the Mayor's opinion, the city council gave Hunt what he wanted, so now we'll see who was right in how he handles his "part of the deal" and how much he gives back to downtown. With residential buildigns popping up left and right, high class dining and shopping destinations coming in, the average income of 75225 increasing still rapidly, I don't see how you can say in anyway that Dallas is going down right now. Pretty much everything in the city of Dallas is either staying constant or on the road to drastic improvement.
    The average income when every citizen in Dallas is taken into acount is $75,225? That is astounding! Look, I'm just arguing that the DFW airport is a fallen institution primarily because of the leadership in Dallas. Just talk to other people in a chatroom about Dallas and you will see that there is a perception that the place is a desert, has conservatives who hate liberals and is still a bastion for racist, redneck cowboys. Political leaders in Atlanta realize how important unity is when attracting business and that is why they got UPS and Dallas didn't. However, you are right when you say that the city of Dallas is growing, but I think that is because people have always wanted to live close to downtown and whites have realized that even minorities are trying to outrun crime and poor schools. I actually think that the commuter rail is something which is Austinish. It makes Dallas more of an intimate city. It has been like bypass surgery to the city, opening up the other transportation arteries into downtown. I also think that the museum-like train stations are a classic and something unique to Dallas. But sorry, I can't go against my gut feeling and what I know to be true. Dallas is the rotten core in the barrel which is the DFW area.

  48. #298
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    Look, I'm just arguing that the DFW airport is a fallen institution primarily because of the leadership in Dallas.
    I think DFW airport has underperformed because AA's prices have been too high, plain and simple. The high than average ticket prices have also contributed to falling convention business.

    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    Dallas is the rotten core in the barrel which is the DFW area.
    You're certainly not alone to think that about Dallas, and there's plenty about Dallas I find unsavory - but not any more than any other big city. Nevertheless, I do think the rotten core perception is inaccurate. Of all the Sunbelt suburban population centers, I think Dallas has the most promising future to continue developing preferable urban lifestyle opportunities, joining the already impressive suburban opportunities.

  49. #299
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    More operations = more chance for there to be delay's, lost baggage and complaints from more customers. If the top tier airlines on those list (which I noticed are some of the smaller ones and not the large legacy carriers like AA, United, Delta & Continental) operated networks as large as the legacy carriers then you can count on them being near the bottom of the list too. In other words AA and the others have tons more operations daily which presents the potential for something to not go as planned more frequently that those who do not conduct as many operations per day. Legacy carriers have a lot more to keep up with and do the best they can to accomodate their passengers just like the smaller ones do.
    That is a nice theory, however if you look at the full figures on the listed website, you will see that the carrier with the second largest number of passanger (7.4 million vs 7.8 million) is near the top of the lists very often. So the numbers do not support your theory. In 2004 they carried more pasangers than any other US airline and stayed way up on the lists. On several ocasions they were number one on the list in all three areas. So all it means if they have more flights and carry more people they simply have to work harder to excel. It can be done, few have the will to even try.

  50. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Passenger numbers have a lot to do with how good an airline is. How can you not believe that? AA must offer a good product if so many people fly them. CO might have more destinations but do they fly the destinations they share with AA as frequently or do they fly alot of places that AA doesnt? On Earth the best one wins over the most people are you saying that most people are brainwashed to fly AA because they really dont want to? High volume means passengers like AA service or convenience.

    These airlines are all publicly traded companies, and as such you or anyone else can freely access their information from their annual reports. If you look at their annual reports you will find all the information you need to see that CO far outperforms the other Legaciy carriers. The balance sheet contains much of the information you need.

    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    On Earth the best one wins over the most people.
    Unfortunately in the airline industry this is not necessary true. It is a very complex industry that relies on a multitude of factors. You are talking about revenue passenger miles (RPM) flown. An airline can fly a ton of passenger miles and be a total failure.

    The airlines depend on many things to make a profit. First airlines have fixed or sunk cost--means that the airplane is going to cost them so many dollars per flight and the airline has to fill so many seats to recoup cost. It flies regardless if seats are filled or not and cost is the one constant.

    It is all about yield management/revenue management for the Legacy carriers. This is the way the airlines set ticket prices and eventually make money or in all these airlines cases lose the least amount of money. This is a very complex program that the airlines use. Yield management programs function is best described as a stochastic, non-linear, mixed-integer mathematical program that requires data such as passenger demand pattern, cancellations, cargo load, available seats, group reservations, and other estimates.

    Some other things airlines must consider are
    ASM- Available Seat Miles
    Cost per ASM
    Operating Revenue per ASM (RPM)
    Load Factor
    Fuel Hedges
    Yield

    These are just the basics.

    An Example:

    Let’s take AA for example since they are the World’s biggest airline. This means they have a lot of ASM. (Should Fly more people)
    Lets also add WN (Southwest) and CO to this example. All 3 airlines have 100 seats in their planes and fly between the same cities on this 500 mile route.

    (Using larger number with greater variance than in reality to make the example easier to understand. 15C stands for Cent.)

    AA does 10 flights between the two cites, the most. It has the most available seat miles (ASM) on this route, so it can fly the most passengers. (Each airline uses revenue management to figure out what its break even point is on each flight.) Say AA figurers it needs a 90% load factor to break even on this route. AA the world’s largest airlines flies 840 people on this route.

    Second part of the problem:
    AA being a Legacy carrier with HIGH COST has a high cost per ASM on this flight 15C (Using random numbers).

    CO is also on the same route, but flies 3 flight because they do not need to be the worlds largest and fly so many flights/people. CO is a legacy carrier and has a high Cost per ASM but less than AA at 13C. Its break even load factor is 79%. CO only flies 240 people on this route

    Second part of the problem:
    CO also charges more for an average fare than AA because CO has a better product, less flights, (or understands rev management better) it is able to ask a premium.

    Now WN (Southwest). WN is new to this route and only has 2 flights. Because of WN low cost they figure they only need a 55% load factor to break even. WN fly less than CO and AA with only 130 people on this route.

    Second Part of the problem:
    WN being the savvy airline that they are has a Cost per ASM of 7.5C and charge a low fares.

    Who made the most money?

    Any guesses?

    Has to be AA, right, I mean they flew the most people? 840 people!
    First you need to find the available seat miles (ASM).
    "Available seat miles" represents the number of seats available for passengers multiplied by the number of miles the seats are flown.
    AA
    (100 seats x 10 flights) = 1000
    1000 seats x 500 miles = 500,000 is the ASM for AA

    Next you need to find the Revenue Passenger Miles RPM.
    "Revenue passenger miles" represents the number of miles flown by revenue passengers.
    840 passengers x 500 miles = 420,000 RPM

    Next you need to know what you load factor was.
    "Load factor" represents the percentage of aircraft seating capacity that is actually utilized (revenue passenger miles divided by available passenger miles)
    420,000RPM/500,000ASM= .84 or 84% load factor for AA

    I’ll do CO and WN real quick
    CO
    100 seats x 3 flights = 300 seats
    300seats x 500 miles = 150,000 ASM
    240 people x 500 miles = 120,000RPM
    120,000RPM/150,000ASM = .80 or 80% load factor

    WN
    100 seats x 2 flights = 200 seats
    200 seats x 500 miles = 100,000 ASM
    130 people x 500 miles = 65,000 ASM
    65,000RPM/100,000ASM = .65 or 65% load factor

    Who flew the most people?

    AA of course with 10 flights 840 people and a load factor of 84%.

    Who made the most money?

    First glance you might want to say AA with an average load factor of 84% and 10 flights. Sure beats CO 3 flights with an 80% load factor and WN 2 flights with a 65% load factor. In reality WN made the most money on the route. WN break even was only 55%. CO made some money with a 79% break even load factor but AA lost money because it needs a 90% break even load factor only has 84%, but they flew the most people.

    Second part:
    Let’s say we did not have the load factors but knew the operating revenue per ASM on this route after the flights took place.
    AA Operating Revenue per ASM was 12C.
    CO Operating Revenue per ASM was 13.5C.
    WN Operating Revenue per ASM was 9.8C.

    Now, who made the most money?

    It’s not CO, which had the highest operating revenue per ASM, and it wasn’t AA. It was WN. WN with operating revenue of 9.8C beat both CO and AA who both had higher Operating revenue per ASM. Why?

    You have to look at Cost per ASM. AA was15C so at an operating revenue per ASM of 12C they were losing money. (LOTS). CO cost per ASM was 13C, but their operating revenue was 13.5C. They made money on the route but not at much as WN.

    WN cost per ASM was only 7.5C, but their operating revenue was 9.8C. Even thought they have lower operating revenue per ASM than AA and CO, WN operating revenue was considerable higher than their low Cost per ASM of 7.5C. WN can have lower revenue per ASM than CO, and AA, and still make money because their Cost per ASM is much less. This is why WN can charge lower fares and still make money while the Legacies like CO, AA will bleed if they keep fares at the level. No matter what the Legacies do they will never get their cost as low WN!


    At the end of the day, you can fly more people than any other airline, but are losing massive amounts of money. What did you prove? Nothing. Just because you have fly a lot of people doesn’t mean jack. If the numbers are not working out, at the end of the day all you can claim is “I fly the most people and am the world’s biggest airline but lose a lot of money and have pissed off shareholders.

    When you are a publicly held company shareholder value means a lot.


    Let’s look at some real numbers AA vs. CO for 2003. Numbers came from their annual reports, links below. (I used 2003, because I could not find AA total passenger for 2004).

    AA
    Passengers flown 88,241
    Operating Revenue (Passengers) $14,332,000,000
    Available Seat Miles 165,209,000
    Revenue Passengers Mile 120,328,000
    Load Factor 72.8
    Cost per ASM 10.15 cent
    Passenger revenue per ASM 8.67 cent

    CO
    Passengers Flown 40,613

    Operating Revenue (Passengers) $8,984,000,000
    Available Seat Miles 78,385,000
    Revenue Passengers Mile 59,165,000
    Load Factor 75.5
    Cost per ASM 9.36 cent
    Passenger revenue per ASM 8.73 cent

    Just by looking at these numbers I don’t need to see the “Net Income/Loss” to tell you both of these airlines lost money. I can also tell you CO did better than AA.

    AA sure flew more people than CO (over twice as much) a whooping 47,628 more.
    AA did not make twice as much in revenue. Take operating passenger rev/ by total passengers CO rate is $221,209.96 and AA is 162,418.83. If AA was at CO rate with 88,241 passengers AA would be looking at close to 19 billion in Operating passenger revenue.

    Also AA load factor is less than CO, fly less people per plane. AA cost per ASM is much higher than CO.

    Even with a higher cost AA passenger revenue per ASM is lower than CO. CO is losing less money that AA. A lot less!

    That year CO made a net profit of $38 million while AA lost $1,228 BILLION!!

    Something AA, UAL, DAL, NW, need to come to grip with is that they are not low cost carriers. Thy have high cost and need to charger higher fares to make money. Look at the losses below. WN can charge lower fares and make money because they have low cost. CO chose to go a different route. It cost are almost as high as all the Legacies, but they chose to take the high road and offer all services and charge for it. They are doing better that the others legacies.


    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Just exactly how much better is CO performing than AA and the others (besides WN) financially? I have yet to read an artilcle stating such information.
    Here is a look at the operating and net losses for the Legacy Carries from 2001-2004.

    Information came from Annual Reports
    AMR-American
    http://www.aa.com/content/images/amr...corp2004ar.pdf
    CAL-Continental
    http://www.continental.com/company/i...al_ar_2004.pdf
    DAL-Delta
    http://delta.m7z.net/delta/delta/pdf...eltaAR2004.pdf
    NWAC- Northwest
    http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...2/NWAC_10K.pdf
    UAL-United
    http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...LCORPDE10K.pdf
    US Air
    http://www.usairways.com/about/inves...004_report.doc



    If you look at this information ONE airline stands out from the rest. Out of all four years CO was the only airline to post operating income for two of the four years.
    CO also had a net income of 38 million in 2003.


    So how did the world’s biggest airline do? (Passengers miles flown)

    Over four years AA lost $7,262,000,000 BILLION Dollars

    2nd largest US Airline United lost $9,886,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Delta lost $8,459,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Northwest Airlines Lost $1,835,000,000 Billion Dollars

    CO 5th largest US Airline lost $871,000,000 MILLION Dollars

    US Airways lost $6,183,000,000 Billion Dollars

    With the exception of AA, and CO, all of the other airlines filed Chapter 11 Bankruptcy within the time frame.

    All of the airlines in a desperate move to save money cut back on all services, except CO. All of them stopped food, some removed pillows, blankets, charge for pretzels, drinks, got rid of in-flight reading material, and cut and cut and cut.

    These are all Legacy Carries. But wait, CO did not do any of that. Yet, CO is performing better than the rest of the Legacies while offering a FULL Service. The airline refused to “damage its image”. CO spent a lot of time building up their image of Legacy Carrier and had no plans on giving that up.

    Has it help CO?

    Well their financial performance agrees with them. Something that is very important is employee moral. CO told their employees that they will not cut this and that and will not be like the other airlines. It worked. CO kept up its image, its employees are happy and the carrier is doing better than the other Legacies. CO has been voted one of Fortune 100 best companies to work for 6 years in a row and the only airline to do it. Look at the Annual Reports. The airlines are trying to save every penny they can and are producing plain annual reports, while CO produced a vivid regular color report.

    Even though CO and the aviation industry are going through a hard time CO tried their best to insure employees and passenger that it will maintain the highest level of service in which both have become accustomed to.

    You see CO know who they are, who their customers are and what they want to be. They want to be a Full Fare Legacy Carrier. At the present point in time, they are the only ones left. As times eventually get better in the airline industry, CO has already position itself as the top Legacy carrier. It is the “highest end” Legacy carrier in the US. CO will be able to attract the higher fare paying passengers thru its service and therefore make more money.

    CO has their niche and will greatly prosper in the long run for setting themselves apart from the rest. The airline industry and retail industry follow the same format; you have to set yourself apart from you competition. CO has a premium product, hands down; all the awards and high remarks prove that. With a premium product comes a premium price. As things get better CO will have its passengers and the others will be left to fight over the rest.

    The legacy carriers have got to figure out how to get their cost lowered or increse revenue. If they don't they will end up like Pan Am, Eastern, and Braniff.

    Performance




    I never said CO was cheap, if you want cheap no frills then CO might not be for you.

    A quick search on fares from Dallas to various cities on 1/18/2005 to 1/25/2005.
    For CO fares from DAL I used their website www.continental.com. I tried to use AA website to get fares, but couldn’t figure out how to get the lowest price or any price for that matter to show up. For AA I went to www.expedia.com and while there got CO fares from DFW. These are the cheapest fares flown only on AA or CO. Yellow lowest between AA and CO, Blue highest between AA and CO.



    If you every want to find out anything about the airline/aviation industry and have some time, go to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University Library in Daytona Beach, Fl. If something was written about the aviation industry you will find it there. They have every kind of report imaginable about the airlines and aviation. In addition to that, I was lucky to have had some great discussions with Dr. John Wensveen. He is one of the brightest people I know. He is also 1 of 5 people in the world to have a PhD in the Field of Aviation Business Administration.
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

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