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Thread: DFW wants to be the premier airport in the global marketplace

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by UptownDallas
    Where in the world are you coming up with that? Let's say that Love Field became as busy as Hobby... that would still be well within Master Plan limits.

    It's difficult to envision any reasonable scenario in which Love Field becomes Southwest's busiest facility.
    Why is that? Are you CEO of WN. If you are then I would believe you. But you don't know their plans at Love. Their busiest airports in Las Vegas, Pheonix and Chicago have around 200+ departures per day. 250 for Las Vegas and 41 destinations from Las Vegas I think. I will get you the actual numbers later.

  2. #302
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    Those awards mean nothing to me. They are awarded from people I dont know and who dont share my opinions on what I see as a good airline. I am not praising AA but you cannot say one is better than the other based on an award. I fly so I don't have to drive and I could care less if I get an overpriced meal, movie, pillow ect. Even if my flight was 14 hours. I bring my own entertainment. I am just lucky to be in a plane and not driving a car through traffic or on a boat or train. Just get me there. That is all I care about. I am not like you. Lets agree to disagree on this one.

    I was not completely sure on what they flew out of Love. I thought they might be in the Wright Restrictions somehow. Thanks for informing me on this one. I thought that other carriers didnt have much success with these types of planes. AA crashed and burned using them so did Legend.

    Did you check every airline? I saw numbers for Delta & Northwest that were well over the numbers you just stated. They do serve alot of international destinations and more Mexican destinations than most. But I am not off like you stated. See below

    Delta: 900 destinations (w/ codeshare)
    AA: 570 (codeshare, one world alliance)
    Northwest: 750 (with codeshare)
    United: 360
    Continental: 680

    These numbers come from their websites and include codeshare and destinations served through alliances. Check for yourself you will have to do some digging.

    They like to use the big # so they can boast. Hard to find the actual destinations flown by the airlines on their sites.

    I was just making the point that because of their limited presence at Love that is why the lines were shorter. I was in no way trying to diminish their service. I would choose Continental over WN any day of the week because unlike WN they serve both Love and DFW.

    Again more people fly AA! They can't be that bad if they are the worlds largest airline. Continental is not. Why is that? Yes Continental filed bankruptcy in the 90's but they still did. AA did not and AA had done a great job of cutting cost and will probably turn a profit this year. Again its all a matter of personal opinion.
    Last edited by FortWorthGuy; 09 January 2006 at 11:40 AM.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFW75209
    Hard to believe, yes, but easily verifiable. Remember, the claim is most destinations served on their own metal, not including alliance partners. Of all the major carriers, CO is the least dependent on its alliance partners, choosing to fly its own metal instead where possible. For example, while UA and AA rely on LH and BA for connections within Europe, CO instead flies to 23+ cities itself and is adding at least 3 more this summer. While AA only flies to Tokyo (and recently Osaka) in Asia, CO flies HKG, PEK, NRT, and NGO from the mainland/Hawaii and through its Micronesia operation (wholly owned by CO), an additional 8 cities in Japan, among others.

    Of all the majors, DL, until recently, had one of the weakest international structures. They were strong in Europe, but lacking in Asia and Latin America. They have recently added more cities in Europe and announced a plan to pass CO as #2 in Latin America. Even if this happens, they will still be behind CO in Asia.

    UA:
    United Airlines (OTCBB: UALAQ.OB) operates more than 3,400 flights a day on United, United Express and Ted to more than 200 U.S. domestic and international destinations from its hubs in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Denver, Chicago and Washington, D.C.
    www.united.com

    AA:
    American Airlines is the world's largest airline. American, American Eagle and AmericanConnection ® serve 250 cities in over 40 countries with more than 3,900 daily flights.
    www.aa.com

    DL: (notice DL does not break out its own operations from its partners because it is the weakest internationally - compare DL in Asia and Latin America to CO; they're on par in Europe)
    Delta Air Lines is the world’s second-largest airline in terms of passengers carried, offering daily flights to 505 destinations in 93 countries on Delta, Song, Delta Shuttle, the Delta Connection carriers and its worldwide partners.
    www.delta.com

    So CO's claim of 284+ destinations served on their metal doesn't seem implausible, when UA is claiming 200+ and AA 250...

    CO's route map:
    http://www.continental.com/travel/de...rld_200508.pdf

    this map doesn't include the recently launched IAH-EZE (Buenos Aires) and the new cities in Europe starting this summer. COs EWR-DEL started a few weeks before AA's ORD-DEL flight.

    The advantage IAH has over DFW is that since CO has less mainland hubs than AA, IAH is relatively more important in CO's intl operations. AA is already huge in Latin America, but unless a major expansion is announced that MIA cannot accommodate, I don't think DFW will surpass IAH as an international hub.

    Good information. Thanks. You must have done some serious digging. Question. Do you see DFW seeing substantial international growth in the future? Why cant it surpass IAH? It is larger and has more room to grow. If Wright will ever go away more people will fly. The problem and advantage of DFW is AA. Its a double edged sword that prevents new airlines from starting service because they will crush anyone who lands on their turf but at the same time offers tons of destinations. I dont think any AA should have 86% of the market. Wright carved them a huge advantage here and they ran with it. Other hubs like ATL and ORD have two airlines hubbed which drives the prices down in those markets and CO competes with WN on domestic routes out of IAH (I forget if they are at Hobby too).

  4. #304
    Skyscraper Member LakeHighlands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DFW75209
    CO was recently voted OAG Airline of the Year for the 2nd time - something NO US airline has ever done. And CO is the only true full service airline in the US still... magazines, newspapers, MEALS, IFE, pillows, and blankets FREE in COACH. The BusinessFirst product has been voted best US business class by CondeNast, among others for the 5+ year running. And they have up to 10 flts a day from DAL - quite impressive. For the reason they use 50 seat RJs, see below.



    NOT true... b/c CO uses 50 seat RJs from DAL, the beyond ticketing restriction does NOT apply. CO can provide one-stop service anywhere they serve from DAL. You can fly DAL-NRT with one-stop in IAH on CO. I have used this service to go many places outside the Wright boundaries. You are correct CO does not fly to EWR or CLE from DAL, but even to IAH, you do not have to reticket like you would on WN. And since CO serves more international destinations from IAH than AA does from DFW, this is a very useful service.




    CO bankrupt?? um, not since the mid 90s. They turned a profit in the 3rd quarter too. Something AA certainly did NOT do. You can verify this anywhere, so I'm not even going to bother finding a source. Again, you are incorrect. Also, CO indeed serves more TOTAL destinations on their OWN METAL than ANY airline in the world. They recently passed LH and BA. You forget total destinations include the US domestic market, which is huge. And as for total international destinations - again, check your facts. CO serves more total intl destinations than ANY us carrier. Again, this is verifiable. Look at CO in Mexico and Europe alone. AA has hardly any presence in Europe outside of LHR. CO serves over 20 transatlantic destinations alone. AA does not serve Berlin, Geneva, Tel Aviv, Lisbon, Hamburg, Oslo, Copenhagen, Belfast, Bristol, etc. for starters. Not to mention over 20 cities in Mexico CO serves from IAH, which is more than most Mexican carriers serve themselves! Then you forget about their Micronesia operation - where they serve more cities in Japan than ANY us carrier. Did you know CO even flies to Australia (Cairns) from their Guam hub? Sorry, you are WAY off here.



    CO does quite fine with it's "limited" presence at DAL. It continues to be the highest ranked legacy carrier. Try getting a meal on a 2 hour AA Eagle flight. good luck. you can't even get a free meal to Hawaii in coach on AA anymore!


    Thank you, thank you, and thank you!!! You save me some serious time from having to answer all those questions. You defiantly know your stuff. You know more than the general public at large. Are you a pilot, in the airline industry or a riddle grad? What’s even more amazing is you answer them the same way I would have eventually
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

  5. #305
    Skyscraper Member LakeHighlands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by F4shionablecHa0s
    Yeah, let's screw the hometown airline that pumps millions of dollars into our economy out of money. That really makes a whole lot of sense. Flying Southwest I can understand. Enduring connections just to hurt AA, therefore endangering jobs and tax money in the metroplex, I don't understand.
    I don’t endure connections to hurt AA. To me AA service is so bad; I rather connect with another airline I believe provides superior service.

    Dallas Love Field is much close to my house. I don’t want to drive to DFW. It’s too far, lines are too long, got fine a parking spot, long walk to the terminal, long taxi times, etc. It’s just too much. I like arriving at the airport 20 mins before my flight boards and still having 5 to 10 mins to spare before the plane boards.

    I am a very picky flyer. I always make sure to book a flight on newer airplanes and certain airplanes. If I could have it my way I’d prefer to fly on the 777 everywhere I go. (If only…)When I started to fly CO in the late 1990s, they had one of the youngest fleets in the nation. Their fleet is still young. (Younger than AA, Delta, NW, etc). I use to do a lot of work in Florida, still do some and I flew between DAL-MCO (Orlando) a lot. I purposely picked the flight with the 767-400 between IAH-MCO. It had PTVs! I hope they bring it back this spring, but I know CO is hurting for Wide-bodied for international routes. I also want and expect great customer service. (Something AA failed to do many times, so I stopped flying them.)

    I also like airlines that only fly Boeing. I’m not a big fan of Airbus. If I’m not in business class, I make sure to fly when they are severing food. To me the little things mean a lot, food, IFE, mags., pillow, blankets, etc. I may not use them, but at least CO is living up to its name “Legacy Carrier” and doing better than the other Legacy Carries too! CO is the ONLY US Legacy Carrier to maintain its level of service since September 11. It also does better financial that the rest of the legacies.

    Another reason I like CO, is that their business plan is working better than the legacy airlines. I believe companies should stick with what they know to do and be the best at it. It is when companies try to be something they are not that they lose their way. This happens time and time again in all industries. I have a problem when a legacy carrier who offers less in the way of service than some low cost carriers and yet charge legacy prices. I don’t believe in wasting money and I am sure not going to pay for a service that inferior when compared to another.
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

  6. #306
    Skyscraper Member LakeHighlands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Again more people fly AA! They can't be that bad if they are the worlds largest airline. Continental is not. Why is that? Yes Continental filed bankruptcy in the 90's but they still did. AA did not and AA had done a great job of cutting cost and will probably turn a profit this year. Again its all a matter of personal opinion.
    Being the worlds biggest doesn’t mean you’re the greatest company! Ask people in St. Louis what they think of AA. Wal-Mart is the world’s biggest company and I think they are a good company. But there are many people who will disagree with me. With all the people I hear moaning and griping about Wal-Mart you’d wonder how in the world are they the world’s biggest company.

    Continental doesn’t have to be the world’s biggest airline to be rated one of the best and preformed better financially.

    I have a little story I tell retail companies. You don’t have to be the biggest to be successful or show that customers like you more. You need to be the best at what you do.

    What are you accomplishing with low volume stores on every corner and stagnant SSS? I always use Neiman Marcus as an example. They are by no means the even close to the world’s largest department store, but kick every other department store you know what in Sales Per Square Foot & SSS. Other stores wish they could have a SPSF & SSS like Neimans. NM knows who they are, know who their customers are and market them and them alone. Wal-Mart may be the world’s largest retailer, but NM kills them in SPSF & SSS.

    CO is good at what they do, stick to it, and knows who they are. Back in the early 1990’s CO was one of the worst airlines!!! Then they got something that is RARE these days (A GOOD CEO). Gordon Bethune (brilliant man) turned CO around. He took that airline and made it from WORST to FIRST!!! A great book to read: “From Worst to First : Behind the Scenes of Continental's Remarkable Comeback”—Gordon Bethune turned Co around.
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/047...lance&n=283155

    In the late 1990’s and onwards, CO won award after award for various accomplishments. http://www.continental.com/company/profile/awards.asp

    In 2001 before September 11, 2001, CO was the only Legacy Carrier showing a profit for the year. After September 11, when all the legacy “lost their way” Gordon Bethune kept CO in order. CO did not start a low fare airline. CO did not cut amenities. CO held their ground and look at them now. They are doing better than any of the legacies. CO knows who they are and what they want to be! Going into the next few years it appears CO will continue to do better and kick the other Legacy carries in the behind as they focus on being what they are a FULL FARE LEGACY AIRLINE.

    CEO like that are few and far in between. People like (Larry Johnson—ABS, Gene Kahn--MAY, Steve Burd—SWY, take good companies and run them into the ground… and are paid millions to do so.)
    Last edited by LakeHighlands; 09 January 2006 at 06:48 PM.
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

  7. #307
    Skyscraper Member LakeHighlands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    I was not completely sure on what they flew out of Love. I thought they might be in the Wright Restrictions somehow. Thanks for informing me on this one. I thought that other carriers didnt have much success with these types of planes. AA crashed and burned using them so did Legend.
    No, AA and Legend used normal airplanes they retrofitted to meet Wright Restrictions. Legend retrofitted DC9 to hold 56 first class seats. American retrofitted Fokker 100 with first 56 first class seats. I had the opportunity to fly on both of these airplanes. I remember Legend couldn’t serve hot food on my flight. I think their galley did not meet some requirement. I think Legend was a great airline and would have made it if it weren’t for the outrageous start up cost, court battles, and AA. Funny thing AA got their AAsses handed to them by Southwest on the Austin route. They used an MD-80 on that route. I was also pissed at AA for forcing CO to shares it gates and added all the extra people to CO terminal.

    CO uses the Embraer RJ145 and 135 out of Love. All flights but one are on the 145. These are 50 seats regional jets



    The seats are all leather and the pitch of the seats on the A side are much more than a traditional aircraft. The means there is more room (seats more comfortable). ERJ are used by many airlines and are successful little planes. They are getting expensive to operate with higher fuel cost. CO is seeking to renegotiate its contract with Expressjet.

    CO is quite successful at Love M-F 12 Departures CO is the only airline flying DAL-IAH, WN dropped it last year. AA is coming to DAL, but not flying DAL-IAH, leaving CO to have the route to itself.
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeHighlands
    No, AA and Legend used normal airplanes they retrofitted to meet Wright Restrictions. Legend retrofitted DC9 to hold 56 first class seats. American retrofitted Fokker 100 with first 56 first class seats. I had the opportunity to fly on both of these airplanes. I remember Legend couldn’t serve hot food on my flight. I think their galley did not meet some requirement. I think Legend was a great airline and would have made it if it weren’t for the outrageous start up cost, court battles, and AA. Funny thing AA got their AAsses handed to them by Southwest on the Austin route. They used an MD-80 on that route. I was also pissed at AA for forcing CO to shares it gates and added all the extra people to CO terminal.

    CO uses the Embraer RJ145 and 135 out of Love. All flights but one are on the 145. These are 50 seats regional jets



    The seats are all leather and the pitch of the seats on the A side are much more than a traditional aircraft. The means there is more room (seats more comfortable). ERJ are used by many airlines and are successful little planes. They are getting expensive to operate with higher fuel cost. CO is seeking to renegotiate its contract with Expressjet.

    CO is quite successful at Love M-F 12 Departures CO is the only airline flying DAL-IAH, WN dropped it last year. AA is coming to DAL, but not flying DAL-IAH, leaving CO to have the route to itself.
    Its all a matter of personal opinion. You are aparently a much more high maintenance flyer than I am. That is fine but awards mean nothing to most people I know. I want you to get me there fast for a low price. I dont mind waiting a little longer at DFW because I enjoy that airport. Find me a major airport that is more passenger friendly. Love Field will not be the precious ghost town you speak of when Wright goes away. Enjoy your no wait times in line while you can. I know that just because an airline is the worlds largest doesnt make them the best but just because one wins an award and is praised by you doesnt mean they are the best either. Again its your personal opinon against mine. Love may be closer to you and thats fine but for me I would never drive all the way to the poor accessible Love Field. Love field offers me no advantages over DFW. I have never experienced a long wait time at DFW perhaps its when I fly but I havent. Just exactly how much better is CO performing than AA and the others (besides WN) financially? I have yet to read an artilcle stating such information.

    Its all about the Freedom of choice. Travelers at Love should be able to fly more places on larger planes. I have no doubt that you get excellent service on CO but have you tried all the other airlines cause you might like some of them too. Passenger numbers have a lot to do with how good an airline is. How can you not believe that? AA must offer a good product if so many people fly them. CO might have more destinations but do they fly the destinations they share with AA as frequently or do they fly alot of places that AA doesnt? On Earth the best one wins over the most people are you saying that most people are brainwashed to fly AA because they really dont want to? High volume means passengers like AA service or convenience.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    You must have done some serious digging. Question. Do you see DFW seeing substantial international growth in the future? Why cant it surpass IAH? It is larger and has more room to grow. If Wright will ever go away more people will fly. The problem and advantage of DFW is AA. Its a double edged sword that prevents new airlines from starting service because they will crush anyone who lands on their turf but at the same time offers tons of destinations. I dont think any AA should have 86% of the market. Wright carved them a huge advantage here and they ran with it. Other hubs like ATL and ORD have two airlines hubbed which drives the prices down in those markets and CO competes with WN on domestic routes out of IAH (I forget if they are at Hobby too).
    Obviously DFW has the potential to surpass IAH. The metroplex has ~ half a million more people and the facilities are among the best in the world. However, I believe as long as AA is the dominant hub carrier at DFW and has hubs/focus cities in ORD, MIA, LAX, and JFK, I don't think we can expect to see a strong international focus at DFW. Like you said, its a double edged sword having the world's largest carrier hubbed here. Their other hub cities happen to be larger with more significant international demand. On top of that, the other cities are even better positioned geographically to pick up flow to their respective strong regions (e.g. ORD/JFK for Europe, MIA for Latin). IAH greatly benefits from CO being a smaller carrier than AA. It gets to take the role of MIA, essentially, for CO's Latin traffic. When CO adds an international flight, 99% of the time EWR or IAH will get it. That being said, it is interesting how IAH manages to attract foreign carriers when CO fiercly competes in a specific region. LH to FRA is fine - CO doesn't fly that route. But 2 carriers to Mexico? When CO serves more destinations to MEX from IAH than any other airport in the US has service to? Last I checked, CO serves almost 25 cities in Mexico from IAH (that's a lot more than AA serves from DFW). If it were about competition, shouldn't the Mexican carriers have favored DFW over IAH? And looking at the Euro carriers... CO flies 2X daily 777s to LGW, 1X daily 777 to CDG, and a 767 to AMS. That hasn't stopped BA from going 3X daily, AF 2X daily (in the summer), and KL 2X daily (1 being the all biz jet). On routes like these, where CO DOES fiercly compete for local traffic, we can't attribute IAH's greater service to a lack of competition from CO. Like I suggested in the other thread, I think when/if Air India decides to serve Texas, it could be a turning point for which ever airport they pick. If they still pick IAH in the face of all the existing European carrier competition, I think DFW will remain the 2nd international airport in Texas after IAH for at least a few more years.

  10. #310
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Its all a matter of personal opinion. You are aparently a much more high maintenance flyer than I am. That is fine but awards mean nothing to most people I know. I want you to get me there fast for a low price. I dont mind waiting a little longer at DFW because I enjoy that airport. Find me a major airport that is more passenger friendly. Love Field will not be the precious ghost town you speak of when Wright goes away. Enjoy your no wait times in line while you can. I know that just because an airline is the worlds largest doesnt make them the best but just because one wins an award and is praised by you doesnt mean they are the best either. Again its your personal opinon against mine. Love may be closer to you and thats fine but for me I would never drive all the way to the poor accessible Love Field. Love field offers me no advantages over DFW. I have never experienced a long wait time at DFW perhaps its when I fly but I havent. Just exactly how much better is CO performing than AA and the others (besides WN) financially? I have yet to read an artilcle stating such information.

    Its all about the Freedom of choice. Travelers at Love should be able to fly more places on larger planes. I have no doubt that you get excellent service on CO but have you tried all the other airlines cause you might like some of them too. Passenger numbers have a lot to do with how good an airline is. How can you not believe that? AA must offer a good product if so many people fly them. CO might have more destinations but do they fly the destinations they share with AA as frequently or do they fly alot of places that AA doesnt? On Earth the best one wins over the most people are you saying that most people are brainwashed to fly AA because they really dont want to? High volume means passengers like AA service or convenience.
    I agree with you that awards mean nothing to most people. However constant measures of performance count a lot! Even if the average guy does not know the measured numbers, if they travel much they can tell the difference in the performance.

    The DOT has been keeping records for many years now, and there are very few airlines that are CONSTANTLY at or near the top of the scale in several or all categories. Here are the latest (top 10) numbers. If anyone cares to see past performance, the info is on the posted website. What one can clearly see is that over the years only a couple of airlines CONSTANTLY rise to the top of the measurement charts.

    01-09-2006 | November DOT Statistics

    The top performers in each category of the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Air Travel Consumer Report for November 2005 are listed under "Full Story." Expanded information can be found under the About SWA tab > DOT Statistics. The Air Travel Consumer Report can be viewed in full online at http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/index.htm.

    COMPLAINTS (PER 100,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. ExpressJet 0.07
    2. Southwest 0.08
    3. JetBlue 0.23
    4. Skywest 0.28
    5. America West 0.45
    6. Alaska 0.52
    7. Comair 0.54
    8. Northwest 0.58
    9. Frontier 0.59
    10. Hawiian 0.61

    ONTIME PERFORMANCE (PERCENT)
    1. Hawaiian 95.2
    2. Frontier 85.3
    3. America West 85.2
    4. Independence 84.4
    5. Southwest 84.0
    6. US Airways 82.7
    7. ATA 81.7
    8. Skywest 81.3
    9. United 81.2
    10. American 79.9

    BAGGAGE HANDLING (PER 1,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. Independence 2.15
    2. Hawaiian 2.62
    3. AirTran 3.04
    4. United 3.24
    5. JetBlue 3.35
    6. Continental 3.49
    7. Frontier 3.74
    8. Alaska 3.76
    9. ATA 3.85
    10. Southwest 4.16

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    I agree with you that awards mean nothing to most people. However constant measures of performance count a lot! Even if the average guy does not know the measured numbers, if they travel much they can tell the difference in the performance.

    The DOT has been keeping records for many years now, and there are very few airlines that are CONSTANTLY at or near the top of the scale in several or all categories. Here are the latest (top 10) numbers. If anyone cares to see past performance, the info is on the posted website. What one can clearly see is that over the years only a couple of airlines CONSTANTLY rise to the top of the measurement charts.

    01-09-2006 | November DOT Statistics

    The top performers in each category of the U.S. Department of Transportation’s Air Travel Consumer Report for November 2005 are listed under "Full Story." Expanded information can be found under the About SWA tab > DOT Statistics. The Air Travel Consumer Report can be viewed in full online at http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/index.htm.

    COMPLAINTS (PER 100,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. ExpressJet 0.07
    2. Southwest 0.08
    3. JetBlue 0.23
    4. Skywest 0.28
    5. America West 0.45
    6. Alaska 0.52
    7. Comair 0.54
    8. Northwest 0.58
    9. Frontier 0.59
    10. Hawiian 0.61

    ONTIME PERFORMANCE (PERCENT)
    1. Hawaiian 95.2
    2. Frontier 85.3
    3. America West 85.2
    4. Independence 84.4
    5. Southwest 84.0
    6. US Airways 82.7
    7. ATA 81.7
    8. Skywest 81.3
    9. United 81.2
    10. American 79.9

    BAGGAGE HANDLING (PER 1,000 CUSTOMERS)
    1. Independence 2.15
    2. Hawaiian 2.62
    3. AirTran 3.04
    4. United 3.24
    5. JetBlue 3.35
    6. Continental 3.49
    7. Frontier 3.74
    8. Alaska 3.76
    9. ATA 3.85
    10. Southwest 4.16
    More operations = more chance for there to be delay's, lost baggage and complaints from more customers. If the top tier airlines on those list (which I noticed are some of the smaller ones and not the large legacy carriers like AA, United, Delta & Continental) operated networks as large as the legacy carriers then you can count on them being near the bottom of the list too. In other words AA and the others have tons more operations daily which presents the potential for something to not go as planned more frequently that those who do not conduct as many operations per day. Legacy carriers have a lot more to keep up with and do the best they can to accomodate their passengers just like the smaller ones do.

  12. #312
    honestruerealman
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    Go on a chat line and just ask people what they think of Dallas

    Quote Originally Posted by FoUTASportscaster
    There are a ton of other cities that can say that, including NO before Katrina



    Yeah that's the only reason. The one and only reason is Dallas. It has nothing to do with a monoloply at the airport, the high fares, or airport mismanagement. It's all the city of Dallas making this the third busiest airport in the country.



    That's absolutely assinine and stupid. Come back when you have something logical. I'm sure Cuban regrets building his arena in the hottest market in the area and perhaps state, amid what could be one of the greatest developments in the country within the last decade. Now if you want to tell me Dallas got screwed in the deal, I'll talk, but if you believe for one minute that he regrets that, then I'll send you to a junior high debate class.

    Edith and if you think that the magic number for getting another NBA team is 7 mil, I refer you to Chicago, whose DT is on the lakefront and absolutely not in the center of the area and is the third largest media market. They have one team. And coincedentaly enough, the fourth largest is San Fran/Oakland and they have one team.

    Excuse me, but you have gotten way off the focus of the topic. Please try to concentrate on the question, which is why DFW airport has fallen so far behind both the airports of Atlanta and Chicago. The airport has suffered because of how people view the DFW area and, unfortunately, the city proper of Dallas has more influence on how the national and international media views the area, than do other cities of the area. The DFW airport used to be an institution which everyone depended on to expand, like the Convention business used to be, the Market business used to be, the retail business used to be, the Texas/OU game and on and on. However, Dallas today has developed a social agenda which is antibusiness and, for whatever reasons, has been neglecting its infrastructure to the point that the pumps in the levee system of the Trinity River may not be able to keep water from flooding all these wonderful things going on in and around downtown. When I was a youngster growing up in Oak Cliff, I certainly remember when the city did a better job of taking care of the whole city, not just downtown. Granted, no city is perfect, but the leaders of Dallas need to realize that they are salesmen and ambassadors for the city and when they say negative things, whether they are true or not, about their own city, it has negative effects like fewer jobs and money for its citizens. In regards to Cuban and the location of his team, I was just musing at the possibility that if he had to do it over again, if he might choose Arlington as the best centrally located place to base his team. Chicago is not a good example, because it is up against a large lake and so the team is properly centrally located there. Plus the Bucks aren't far away. In the middle of the San Fransico area is a large bay. Texas is going to have millions of new people and it wouldn't surprise me if teams start considering Fort Worth as a possible place to move to--which is equal to or larger than the San Antonio metropolitan area.

  13. #313
    honestruerealman
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    Dallas isn't selling the metropolitan area, it is rotting it

    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    How are any of the positives that you listed moving up to the suburbs? Obviously Mr. Cuban loves his location: He's getting an All Start game and hundred of millions of dollars of private development around his stadium, not to mention a train station for both light and commuter rail. And regardless of the Mayor's opinion, the city council gave Hunt what he wanted, so now we'll see who was right in how he handles his "part of the deal" and how much he gives back to downtown. With residential buildigns popping up left and right, high class dining and shopping destinations coming in, the average income of 75225 increasing still rapidly, I don't see how you can say in anyway that Dallas is going down right now. Pretty much everything in the city of Dallas is either staying constant or on the road to drastic improvement.
    The average income when every citizen in Dallas is taken into acount is $75,225? That is astounding! Look, I'm just arguing that the DFW airport is a fallen institution primarily because of the leadership in Dallas. Just talk to other people in a chatroom about Dallas and you will see that there is a perception that the place is a desert, has conservatives who hate liberals and is still a bastion for racist, redneck cowboys. Political leaders in Atlanta realize how important unity is when attracting business and that is why they got UPS and Dallas didn't. However, you are right when you say that the city of Dallas is growing, but I think that is because people have always wanted to live close to downtown and whites have realized that even minorities are trying to outrun crime and poor schools. I actually think that the commuter rail is something which is Austinish. It makes Dallas more of an intimate city. It has been like bypass surgery to the city, opening up the other transportation arteries into downtown. I also think that the museum-like train stations are a classic and something unique to Dallas. But sorry, I can't go against my gut feeling and what I know to be true. Dallas is the rotten core in the barrel which is the DFW area.

  14. #314
    Administrator tamtagon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    Look, I'm just arguing that the DFW airport is a fallen institution primarily because of the leadership in Dallas.
    I think DFW airport has underperformed because AA's prices have been too high, plain and simple. The high than average ticket prices have also contributed to falling convention business.

    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    Dallas is the rotten core in the barrel which is the DFW area.
    You're certainly not alone to think that about Dallas, and there's plenty about Dallas I find unsavory - but not any more than any other big city. Nevertheless, I do think the rotten core perception is inaccurate. Of all the Sunbelt suburban population centers, I think Dallas has the most promising future to continue developing preferable urban lifestyle opportunities, joining the already impressive suburban opportunities.

  15. #315
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    More operations = more chance for there to be delay's, lost baggage and complaints from more customers. If the top tier airlines on those list (which I noticed are some of the smaller ones and not the large legacy carriers like AA, United, Delta & Continental) operated networks as large as the legacy carriers then you can count on them being near the bottom of the list too. In other words AA and the others have tons more operations daily which presents the potential for something to not go as planned more frequently that those who do not conduct as many operations per day. Legacy carriers have a lot more to keep up with and do the best they can to accomodate their passengers just like the smaller ones do.
    That is a nice theory, however if you look at the full figures on the listed website, you will see that the carrier with the second largest number of passanger (7.4 million vs 7.8 million) is near the top of the lists very often. So the numbers do not support your theory. In 2004 they carried more pasangers than any other US airline and stayed way up on the lists. On several ocasions they were number one on the list in all three areas. So all it means if they have more flights and carry more people they simply have to work harder to excel. It can be done, few have the will to even try.

  16. #316
    Skyscraper Member LakeHighlands's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Passenger numbers have a lot to do with how good an airline is. How can you not believe that? AA must offer a good product if so many people fly them. CO might have more destinations but do they fly the destinations they share with AA as frequently or do they fly alot of places that AA doesnt? On Earth the best one wins over the most people are you saying that most people are brainwashed to fly AA because they really dont want to? High volume means passengers like AA service or convenience.

    These airlines are all publicly traded companies, and as such you or anyone else can freely access their information from their annual reports. If you look at their annual reports you will find all the information you need to see that CO far outperforms the other Legaciy carriers. The balance sheet contains much of the information you need.

    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    On Earth the best one wins over the most people.
    Unfortunately in the airline industry this is not necessary true. It is a very complex industry that relies on a multitude of factors. You are talking about revenue passenger miles (RPM) flown. An airline can fly a ton of passenger miles and be a total failure.

    The airlines depend on many things to make a profit. First airlines have fixed or sunk cost--means that the airplane is going to cost them so many dollars per flight and the airline has to fill so many seats to recoup cost. It flies regardless if seats are filled or not and cost is the one constant.

    It is all about yield management/revenue management for the Legacy carriers. This is the way the airlines set ticket prices and eventually make money or in all these airlines cases lose the least amount of money. This is a very complex program that the airlines use. Yield management programs function is best described as a stochastic, non-linear, mixed-integer mathematical program that requires data such as passenger demand pattern, cancellations, cargo load, available seats, group reservations, and other estimates.

    Some other things airlines must consider are
    ASM- Available Seat Miles
    Cost per ASM
    Operating Revenue per ASM (RPM)
    Load Factor
    Fuel Hedges
    Yield

    These are just the basics.

    An Example:

    Let’s take AA for example since they are the World’s biggest airline. This means they have a lot of ASM. (Should Fly more people)
    Lets also add WN (Southwest) and CO to this example. All 3 airlines have 100 seats in their planes and fly between the same cities on this 500 mile route.

    (Using larger number with greater variance than in reality to make the example easier to understand. 15C stands for Cent.)

    AA does 10 flights between the two cites, the most. It has the most available seat miles (ASM) on this route, so it can fly the most passengers. (Each airline uses revenue management to figure out what its break even point is on each flight.) Say AA figurers it needs a 90% load factor to break even on this route. AA the world’s largest airlines flies 840 people on this route.

    Second part of the problem:
    AA being a Legacy carrier with HIGH COST has a high cost per ASM on this flight 15C (Using random numbers).

    CO is also on the same route, but flies 3 flight because they do not need to be the worlds largest and fly so many flights/people. CO is a legacy carrier and has a high Cost per ASM but less than AA at 13C. Its break even load factor is 79%. CO only flies 240 people on this route

    Second part of the problem:
    CO also charges more for an average fare than AA because CO has a better product, less flights, (or understands rev management better) it is able to ask a premium.

    Now WN (Southwest). WN is new to this route and only has 2 flights. Because of WN low cost they figure they only need a 55% load factor to break even. WN fly less than CO and AA with only 130 people on this route.

    Second Part of the problem:
    WN being the savvy airline that they are has a Cost per ASM of 7.5C and charge a low fares.

    Who made the most money?

    Any guesses?

    Has to be AA, right, I mean they flew the most people? 840 people!
    First you need to find the available seat miles (ASM).
    "Available seat miles" represents the number of seats available for passengers multiplied by the number of miles the seats are flown.
    AA
    (100 seats x 10 flights) = 1000
    1000 seats x 500 miles = 500,000 is the ASM for AA

    Next you need to find the Revenue Passenger Miles RPM.
    "Revenue passenger miles" represents the number of miles flown by revenue passengers.
    840 passengers x 500 miles = 420,000 RPM

    Next you need to know what you load factor was.
    "Load factor" represents the percentage of aircraft seating capacity that is actually utilized (revenue passenger miles divided by available passenger miles)
    420,000RPM/500,000ASM= .84 or 84% load factor for AA

    I’ll do CO and WN real quick
    CO
    100 seats x 3 flights = 300 seats
    300seats x 500 miles = 150,000 ASM
    240 people x 500 miles = 120,000RPM
    120,000RPM/150,000ASM = .80 or 80% load factor

    WN
    100 seats x 2 flights = 200 seats
    200 seats x 500 miles = 100,000 ASM
    130 people x 500 miles = 65,000 ASM
    65,000RPM/100,000ASM = .65 or 65% load factor

    Who flew the most people?

    AA of course with 10 flights 840 people and a load factor of 84%.

    Who made the most money?

    First glance you might want to say AA with an average load factor of 84% and 10 flights. Sure beats CO 3 flights with an 80% load factor and WN 2 flights with a 65% load factor. In reality WN made the most money on the route. WN break even was only 55%. CO made some money with a 79% break even load factor but AA lost money because it needs a 90% break even load factor only has 84%, but they flew the most people.

    Second part:
    Let’s say we did not have the load factors but knew the operating revenue per ASM on this route after the flights took place.
    AA Operating Revenue per ASM was 12C.
    CO Operating Revenue per ASM was 13.5C.
    WN Operating Revenue per ASM was 9.8C.

    Now, who made the most money?

    It’s not CO, which had the highest operating revenue per ASM, and it wasn’t AA. It was WN. WN with operating revenue of 9.8C beat both CO and AA who both had higher Operating revenue per ASM. Why?

    You have to look at Cost per ASM. AA was15C so at an operating revenue per ASM of 12C they were losing money. (LOTS). CO cost per ASM was 13C, but their operating revenue was 13.5C. They made money on the route but not at much as WN.

    WN cost per ASM was only 7.5C, but their operating revenue was 9.8C. Even thought they have lower operating revenue per ASM than AA and CO, WN operating revenue was considerable higher than their low Cost per ASM of 7.5C. WN can have lower revenue per ASM than CO, and AA, and still make money because their Cost per ASM is much less. This is why WN can charge lower fares and still make money while the Legacies like CO, AA will bleed if they keep fares at the level. No matter what the Legacies do they will never get their cost as low WN!


    At the end of the day, you can fly more people than any other airline, but are losing massive amounts of money. What did you prove? Nothing. Just because you have fly a lot of people doesn’t mean jack. If the numbers are not working out, at the end of the day all you can claim is “I fly the most people and am the world’s biggest airline but lose a lot of money and have pissed off shareholders.

    When you are a publicly held company shareholder value means a lot.


    Let’s look at some real numbers AA vs. CO for 2003. Numbers came from their annual reports, links below. (I used 2003, because I could not find AA total passenger for 2004).

    AA
    Passengers flown 88,241
    Operating Revenue (Passengers) $14,332,000,000
    Available Seat Miles 165,209,000
    Revenue Passengers Mile 120,328,000
    Load Factor 72.8
    Cost per ASM 10.15 cent
    Passenger revenue per ASM 8.67 cent

    CO
    Passengers Flown 40,613

    Operating Revenue (Passengers) $8,984,000,000
    Available Seat Miles 78,385,000
    Revenue Passengers Mile 59,165,000
    Load Factor 75.5
    Cost per ASM 9.36 cent
    Passenger revenue per ASM 8.73 cent

    Just by looking at these numbers I don’t need to see the “Net Income/Loss” to tell you both of these airlines lost money. I can also tell you CO did better than AA.

    AA sure flew more people than CO (over twice as much) a whooping 47,628 more.
    AA did not make twice as much in revenue. Take operating passenger rev/ by total passengers CO rate is $221,209.96 and AA is 162,418.83. If AA was at CO rate with 88,241 passengers AA would be looking at close to 19 billion in Operating passenger revenue.

    Also AA load factor is less than CO, fly less people per plane. AA cost per ASM is much higher than CO.

    Even with a higher cost AA passenger revenue per ASM is lower than CO. CO is losing less money that AA. A lot less!

    That year CO made a net profit of $38 million while AA lost $1,228 BILLION!!

    Something AA, UAL, DAL, NW, need to come to grip with is that they are not low cost carriers. Thy have high cost and need to charger higher fares to make money. Look at the losses below. WN can charge lower fares and make money because they have low cost. CO chose to go a different route. It cost are almost as high as all the Legacies, but they chose to take the high road and offer all services and charge for it. They are doing better that the others legacies.


    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    Just exactly how much better is CO performing than AA and the others (besides WN) financially? I have yet to read an artilcle stating such information.
    Here is a look at the operating and net losses for the Legacy Carries from 2001-2004.

    Information came from Annual Reports
    AMR-American
    http://www.aa.com/content/images/amr...corp2004ar.pdf
    CAL-Continental
    http://www.continental.com/company/i...al_ar_2004.pdf
    DAL-Delta
    http://delta.m7z.net/delta/delta/pdf...eltaAR2004.pdf
    NWAC- Northwest
    http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...2/NWAC_10K.pdf
    UAL-United
    http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...LCORPDE10K.pdf
    US Air
    http://www.usairways.com/about/inves...004_report.doc



    If you look at this information ONE airline stands out from the rest. Out of all four years CO was the only airline to post operating income for two of the four years.
    CO also had a net income of 38 million in 2003.


    So how did the world’s biggest airline do? (Passengers miles flown)

    Over four years AA lost $7,262,000,000 BILLION Dollars

    2nd largest US Airline United lost $9,886,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Delta lost $8,459,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Northwest Airlines Lost $1,835,000,000 Billion Dollars

    CO 5th largest US Airline lost $871,000,000 MILLION Dollars

    US Airways lost $6,183,000,000 Billion Dollars

    With the exception of AA, and CO, all of the other airlines filed Chapter 11 Bankruptcy within the time frame.

    All of the airlines in a desperate move to save money cut back on all services, except CO. All of them stopped food, some removed pillows, blankets, charge for pretzels, drinks, got rid of in-flight reading material, and cut and cut and cut.

    These are all Legacy Carries. But wait, CO did not do any of that. Yet, CO is performing better than the rest of the Legacies while offering a FULL Service. The airline refused to “damage its image”. CO spent a lot of time building up their image of Legacy Carrier and had no plans on giving that up.

    Has it help CO?

    Well their financial performance agrees with them. Something that is very important is employee moral. CO told their employees that they will not cut this and that and will not be like the other airlines. It worked. CO kept up its image, its employees are happy and the carrier is doing better than the other Legacies. CO has been voted one of Fortune 100 best companies to work for 6 years in a row and the only airline to do it. Look at the Annual Reports. The airlines are trying to save every penny they can and are producing plain annual reports, while CO produced a vivid regular color report.

    Even though CO and the aviation industry are going through a hard time CO tried their best to insure employees and passenger that it will maintain the highest level of service in which both have become accustomed to.

    You see CO know who they are, who their customers are and what they want to be. They want to be a Full Fare Legacy Carrier. At the present point in time, they are the only ones left. As times eventually get better in the airline industry, CO has already position itself as the top Legacy carrier. It is the “highest end” Legacy carrier in the US. CO will be able to attract the higher fare paying passengers thru its service and therefore make more money.

    CO has their niche and will greatly prosper in the long run for setting themselves apart from the rest. The airline industry and retail industry follow the same format; you have to set yourself apart from you competition. CO has a premium product, hands down; all the awards and high remarks prove that. With a premium product comes a premium price. As things get better CO will have its passengers and the others will be left to fight over the rest.

    The legacy carriers have got to figure out how to get their cost lowered or increse revenue. If they don't they will end up like Pan Am, Eastern, and Braniff.

    Performance




    I never said CO was cheap, if you want cheap no frills then CO might not be for you.

    A quick search on fares from Dallas to various cities on 1/18/2005 to 1/25/2005.
    For CO fares from DAL I used their website www.continental.com. I tried to use AA website to get fares, but couldn’t figure out how to get the lowest price or any price for that matter to show up. For AA I went to www.expedia.com and while there got CO fares from DFW. These are the cheapest fares flown only on AA or CO. Yellow lowest between AA and CO, Blue highest between AA and CO.



    If you every want to find out anything about the airline/aviation industry and have some time, go to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University Library in Daytona Beach, Fl. If something was written about the aviation industry you will find it there. They have every kind of report imaginable about the airlines and aviation. In addition to that, I was lucky to have had some great discussions with Dr. John Wensveen. He is one of the brightest people I know. He is also 1 of 5 people in the world to have a PhD in the Field of Aviation Business Administration.
    "One of Dallas' strongest communities, Lake Highlands boasts a true sense of neighborhood spirit. Local stores reflect passionate support for Lake Highlands schools with school posters and signs. True to its name, the area features handsome traditional homes up and down rolling hills and charming, winding roads." --Lake Highlands People

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    That is a nice theory, however if you look at the full figures on the listed website, you will see that the carrier with the second largest number of passanger (7.4 million vs 7.8 million) is near the top of the lists very often. So the numbers do not support your theory. In 2004 they carried more pasangers than any other US airline and stayed way up on the lists. On several ocasions they were number one on the list in all three areas. So all it means if they have more flights and carry more people they simply have to work harder to excel. It can be done, few have the will to even try.
    Dude Im talking about total flights international and domestic and even at that the so called "airline" you speak of makes only one of the list from my source. Re-check your stats or get on the same page as I am. My theory is not incorrect as I see it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines

    My Source is the IATA via wikipedia what is yours again?

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeHighlands
    These airlines are all publicly traded companies, and as such you or anyone else can freely access their information from their annual reports. If you look at their annual reports you will find all the information you need to see that CO far outperforms the other Legaciy carriers. The balance sheet contains much of the information you need.



    Unfortunately in the airline industry this is not necessary true. It is a very complex industry that relies on a multitude of factors. You are talking about revenue passenger miles (RPM) flown. An airline can fly a ton of passenger miles and be a total failure.

    The airlines depend on many things to make a profit. First airlines have fixed or sunk cost--means that the airplane is going to cost them so many dollars per flight and the airline has to fill so many seats to recoup cost. It flies regardless if seats are filled or not and cost is the one constant.

    It is all about yield management/revenue management for the Legacy carriers. This is the way the airlines set ticket prices and eventually make money or in all these airlines cases lose the least amount of money. This is a very complex program that the airlines use. Yield management programs function is best described as a stochastic, non-linear, mixed-integer mathematical program that requires data such as passenger demand pattern, cancellations, cargo load, available seats, group reservations, and other estimates.

    Some other things airlines must consider are
    ASM- Available Seat Miles
    Cost per ASM
    Operating Revenue per ASM (RPM)
    Load Factor
    Fuel Hedges
    Yield

    These are just the basics.

    An Example:

    Let’s take AA for example since they are the World’s biggest airline. This means they have a lot of ASM. (Should Fly more people)
    Lets also add WN (Southwest) and CO to this example. All 3 airlines have 100 seats in their planes and fly between the same cities on this 500 mile route.

    (Using larger number with greater variance than in reality to make the example easier to understand. 15C stands for Cent.)

    AA does 10 flights between the two cites, the most. It has the most available seat miles (ASM) on this route, so it can fly the most passengers. (Each airline uses revenue management to figure out what its break even point is on each flight.) Say AA figurers it needs a 90% load factor to break even on this route. AA the world’s largest airlines flies 840 people on this route.

    Second part of the problem:
    AA being a Legacy carrier with HIGH COST has a high cost per ASM on this flight 15C (Using random numbers).

    CO is also on the same route, but flies 3 flight because they do not need to be the worlds largest and fly so many flights/people. CO is a legacy carrier and has a high Cost per ASM but less than AA at 13C. Its break even load factor is 79%. CO only flies 240 people on this route

    Second part of the problem:
    CO also charges more for an average fare than AA because CO has a better product, less flights, (or understands rev management better) it is able to ask a premium.

    Now WN (Southwest). WN is new to this route and only has 2 flights. Because of WN low cost they figure they only need a 55% load factor to break even. WN fly less than CO and AA with only 130 people on this route.

    Second Part of the problem:
    WN being the savvy airline that they are has a Cost per ASM of 7.5C and charge a low fares.

    Who made the most money?

    Any guesses?

    Has to be AA, right, I mean they flew the most people? 840 people!
    First you need to find the available seat miles (ASM).
    "Available seat miles" represents the number of seats available for passengers multiplied by the number of miles the seats are flown.
    AA
    (100 seats x 10 flights) = 1000
    1000 seats x 500 miles = 500,000 is the ASM for AA

    Next you need to find the Revenue Passenger Miles RPM.
    "Revenue passenger miles" represents the number of miles flown by revenue passengers.
    840 passengers x 500 miles = 420,000 RPM

    Next you need to know what you load factor was.
    "Load factor" represents the percentage of aircraft seating capacity that is actually utilized (revenue passenger miles divided by available passenger miles)
    420,000RPM/500,000ASM= .84 or 84% load factor for AA

    I’ll do CO and WN real quick
    CO
    100 seats x 3 flights = 300 seats
    300seats x 500 miles = 150,000 ASM
    240 people x 500 miles = 120,000RPM
    120,000RPM/150,000ASM = .80 or 80% load factor

    WN
    100 seats x 2 flights = 200 seats
    200 seats x 500 miles = 100,000 ASM
    130 people x 500 miles = 65,000 ASM
    65,000RPM/100,000ASM = .65 or 65% load factor

    Who flew the most people?

    AA of course with 10 flights 840 people and a load factor of 84%.

    Who made the most money?

    First glance you might want to say AA with an average load factor of 84% and 10 flights. Sure beats CO 3 flights with an 80% load factor and WN 2 flights with a 65% load factor. In reality WN made the most money on the route. WN break even was only 55%. CO made some money with a 79% break even load factor but AA lost money because it needs a 90% break even load factor only has 84%, but they flew the most people.

    Second part:
    Let’s say we did not have the load factors but knew the operating revenue per ASM on this route after the flights took place.
    AA Operating Revenue per ASM was 12C.
    CO Operating Revenue per ASM was 13.5C.
    WN Operating Revenue per ASM was 9.8C.

    Now, who made the most money?

    It’s not CO, which had the highest operating revenue per ASM, and it wasn’t AA. It was WN. WN with operating revenue of 9.8C beat both CO and AA who both had higher Operating revenue per ASM. Why?

    You have to look at Cost per ASM. AA was15C so at an operating revenue per ASM of 12C they were losing money. (LOTS). CO cost per ASM was 13C, but their operating revenue was 13.5C. They made money on the route but not at much as WN.

    WN cost per ASM was only 7.5C, but their operating revenue was 9.8C. Even thought they have lower operating revenue per ASM than AA and CO, WN operating revenue was considerable higher than their low Cost per ASM of 7.5C. WN can have lower revenue per ASM than CO, and AA, and still make money because their Cost per ASM is much less. This is why WN can charge lower fares and still make money while the Legacies like CO, AA will bleed if they keep fares at the level. No matter what the Legacies do they will never get their cost as low WN!


    At the end of the day, you can fly more people than any other airline, but are losing massive amounts of money. What did you prove? Nothing. Just because you have fly a lot of people doesn’t mean jack. If the numbers are not working out, at the end of the day all you can claim is “I fly the most people and am the world’s biggest airline but lose a lot of money and have pissed off shareholders.

    When you are a publicly held company shareholder value means a lot.


    Let’s look at some real numbers AA vs. CO for 2003. Numbers came from their annual reports, links below. (I used 2003, because I could not find AA total passenger for 2004).

    AA
    Passengers flown 88,241
    Operating Revenue (Passengers) $14,332,000,000
    Available Seat Miles 165,209,000
    Revenue Passengers Mile 120,328,000
    Load Factor 72.8
    Cost per ASM 10.15 cent
    Passenger revenue per ASM 8.67 cent

    CO
    Passengers Flown 40,613

    Operating Revenue (Passengers) $8,984,000,000
    Available Seat Miles 78,385,000
    Revenue Passengers Mile 59,165,000
    Load Factor 75.5
    Cost per ASM 9.36 cent
    Passenger revenue per ASM 8.73 cent

    Just by looking at these numbers I don’t need to see the “Net Income/Loss” to tell you both of these airlines lost money. I can also tell you CO did better than AA.

    AA sure flew more people than CO (over twice as much) a whooping 47,628 more.
    AA did not make twice as much in revenue. Take operating passenger rev/ by total passengers CO rate is $221,209.96 and AA is 162,418.83. If AA was at CO rate with 88,241 passengers AA would be looking at close to 19 billion in Operating passenger revenue.

    Also AA load factor is less than CO, fly less people per plane. AA cost per ASM is much higher than CO.

    Even with a higher cost AA passenger revenue per ASM is lower than CO. CO is losing less money that AA. A lot less!

    That year CO made a net profit of $38 million while AA lost $1,228 BILLION!!

    Something AA, UAL, DAL, NW, need to come to grip with is that they are not low cost carriers. Thy have high cost and need to charger higher fares to make money. Look at the losses below. WN can charge lower fares and make money because they have low cost. CO chose to go a different route. It cost are almost as high as all the Legacies, but they chose to take the high road and offer all services and charge for it. They are doing better that the others legacies.




    Here is a look at the operating and net losses for the Legacy Carries from 2001-2004.

    Information came from Annual Reports
    AMR-American
    http://www.aa.com/content/images/amr...corp2004ar.pdf
    CAL-Continental
    http://www.continental.com/company/i...al_ar_2004.pdf
    DAL-Delta
    http://delta.m7z.net/delta/delta/pdf...eltaAR2004.pdf
    NWAC- Northwest
    http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...2/NWAC_10K.pdf
    UAL-United
    http://library.corporate-ir.net/libr...LCORPDE10K.pdf
    US Air
    http://www.usairways.com/about/inves...004_report.doc



    If you look at this information ONE airline stands out from the rest. Out of all four years CO was the only airline to post operating income for two of the four years.
    CO also had a net income of 38 million in 2003.


    So how did the world’s biggest airline do? (Passengers miles flown)

    Over four years AA lost $7,262,000,000 BILLION Dollars

    2nd largest US Airline United lost $9,886,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Delta lost $8,459,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Northwest Airlines Lost $1,835,000,000 Billion Dollars

    CO 5th largest US Airline lost $871,000,000 MILLION Dollars

    US Airways lost $6,183,000,000 Billion Dollars

    With the exception of AA, and CO, all of the other airlines filed Chapter 11 Bankruptcy within the time frame.

    All of the airlines in a desperate move to save money cut back on all services, except CO. All of them stopped food, some removed pillows, blankets, charge for pretzels, drinks, got rid of in-flight reading material, and cut and cut and cut.

    These are all Legacy Carries. But wait, CO did not do any of that. Yet, CO is performing better than the rest of the Legacies while offering a FULL Service. The airline refused to “damage its image”. CO spent a lot of time building up their image of Legacy Carrier and had no plans on giving that up.

    Has it help CO?

    Well their financial performance agrees with them. Something that is very important is employee moral. CO told their employees that they will not cut this and that and will not be like the other airlines. It worked. CO kept up its image, its employees are happy and the carrier is doing better than the other Legacies. CO has been voted one of Fortune 100 best companies to work for 6 years in a row and the only airline to do it. Look at the Annual Reports. The airlines are trying to save every penny they can and are producing plain annual reports, while CO produced a vivid regular color report.

    Even though CO and the aviation industry are going through a hard time CO tried their best to insure employees and passenger that it will maintain the highest level of service in which both have become accustomed to.

    You see CO know who they are, who their customers are and what they want to be. They want to be a Full Fare Legacy Carrier. At the present point in time, they are the only ones left. As times eventually get better in the airline industry, CO has already position itself as the top Legacy carrier. It is the “highest end” Legacy carrier in the US. CO will be able to attract the higher fare paying passengers thru its service and therefore make more money.

    CO has their niche and will greatly prosper in the long run for setting themselves apart from the rest. The airline industry and retail industry follow the same format; you have to set yourself apart from you competition. CO has a premium product, hands down; all the awards and high remarks prove that. With a premium product comes a premium price. As things get better CO will have its passengers and the others will be left to fight over the rest.

    The legacy carriers have got to figure out how to get their cost lowered or increse revenue. If they don't they will end up like Pan Am, Eastern, and Braniff.

    Performance




    I never said CO was cheap, if you want cheap no frills then CO might not be for you.

    A quick search on fares from Dallas to various cities on 1/18/2005 to 1/25/2005.
    For CO fares from DAL I used their website www.continental.com. I tried to use AA website to get fares, but couldn’t figure out how to get the lowest price or any price for that matter to show up. For AA I went to www.expedia.com and while there got CO fares from DFW. These are the cheapest fares flown only on AA or CO. Yellow lowest between AA and CO, Blue highest between AA and CO.



    If you every want to find out anything about the airline/aviation industry and have some time, go to Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University Library in Daytona Beach, Fl. If something was written about the aviation industry you will find it there. They have every kind of report imaginable about the airlines and aviation. In addition to that, I was lucky to have had some great discussions with Dr. John Wensveen. He is one of the brightest people I know. He is also 1 of 5 people in the world to have a PhD in the Field of Aviation Business Administration.
    Lakehighlands:

    You have blown me away with all that. Thanks for that info! I never realized how Continental performed better and the way you compared the operations makes perfect sense. AA has tons of flights but they end up loosing money while CO has less flights and either breaks even or makes money. Very interesting. I would love to see pre-9-11 numbers. I am very interested in the avaiation industry especially the way airlines and airports work. DFW airport's problems are a big deal to me and I hope the upper managment and our leaders can solve this Wright issue so our world class airport can flourish with new service from new airlines and passenger growth instead of decline. DFW is too good an airport to not have high growth and new carriers entering the market. Airlines pulling service while they are growing elsewhere is not a good sign. Hopefully the problem can be solved soon.

    Chris
    Last edited by FortWorthGuy; 11 January 2006 at 09:42 AM.

  19. #319
    High-Rise Member AndyIvey's Avatar
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    Maybe we're guaging the success of DFW with the wrong numbers. Do we care how many people land here? I care about how many leave the airport and spend money. I believe connecting flights are considered in a lot of the figures shown here. The taxes for those passengers are great, but does that compare with someone that leaves the airport and spends money in the area?

  20. #320
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LakeHighlands

    If you look at this information ONE airline stands out from the rest. Out of all four years CO was the only airline to post operating income for two of the four years.
    CO also had a net income of 38 million in 2003.


    So how did the world’s biggest airline do? (Passengers miles flown)

    Over four years AA lost $7,262,000,000 BILLION Dollars

    2nd largest US Airline United lost $9,886,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Delta lost $8,459,000,000 Billion Dollars

    Northwest Airlines Lost $1,835,000,000 Billion Dollars

    CO 5th largest US Airline lost $871,000,000 MILLION Dollars

    US Airways lost $6,183,000,000 Billion Dollars

    With the exception of AA, and CO, all of the other airlines filed Chapter 11 Bankruptcy within the time frame.
    To put things in prospective. Caulks Flying Service Was the first US airline, they started flying in 1919.

    The US airline industry has lost more money in the four years between 9/11/2001 and 2005, than all of the US Airlines total profits in the 82 years between 1919 and 2001. Only one US airline has made money every quarter of every year during the last 32 years.

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    You are right TexasPlus and that airline is Southwest and they do offer a great product but we need Legacy carriers because WN cannot take you everywhere and all over the world. That is the main point I am trying to make. They are great but they do not have near as large a network as AA, Delta or Continental. Southwest is one of the reasons air travel is growing throughout the US. They make it possible for more people to fly because they compete with legacy carriers with low pricing and good service WN limited at Love is the reason DFW is not growing and attracting new service. Who would want to service a market that is not growing or dominated by one huge carrier operation (AA)? The prices here are too high and Im surprised the traffic is as high as it is now. Chicago and Houston are prime examples that multiple airports can co-exist. Most major cities have more than one regional airport. Once Wright goes away new carriers will expand, start service and passengers will fill the gates at Love and DFW. Texas and DFW for that matter is at a huge advantage as far as location (4 hours flight time to every major city on this continent) is concerned. That is why AA, Continental and WN are based here except WN cannot put its advantage to use here because of Wright.

  22. #322
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    You are right TexasPlus and that airline is Southwest and they do offer a great product but we need Legacy carriers because WN cannot take you everywhere and all over the world. That is the main point I am trying to make. They are great but they do not have near as large a network as AA, Delta or Continental.
    I agree we need international carriers. However the "need" for carriers that try to do everything (IE too much) is doubtful. It has resulted in a bunch of at best mediocre airlines. Airlines that just barely make it from paycheck to bailout loan, or bankruptcy to bankruptcy. The very best results shown above is CO with a 50% failure rate over the last four years.

    I much prefer a company (in any industry) that does a few things really well at a low cost, than a company that tries to do everything, and does it in mediocre or poor way at a higher price.

  23. #323
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    My Source is the IATA via wikipedia what is yours again?
    The Department of Transport (DOT) http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/reports/index.htm

    BTW your source say this:

    Southwest Airlines, Inc. NYSE: LUV, based in Dallas, Texas, is an airline in the United States. It is the third-largest airline in world, as measured in number of passengers carried, and the largest with destinations exclusively in the United States. It is known as a "discount airline" compared to its domestic rivals and has been profitable every year since 1973.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines
    Last edited by TexasPlus; 11 January 2006 at 12:31 PM.

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    We are not on the same page. Thats the problem.
    It is the third-largest airline in world, as measured in number of passengers carried, and the largest with destinations exclusively in the United States
    If you look at the page I provided it list the top (domestic and international) airlines in the world. You are speaking about the domestic market. There are many ways to determine the worlds largest airline. WN appears on one list on my link. I don't disagree that it is the third largest by passenger volume in the world. I know that.

    I have read that it goes AA, United, Delta, Continental then Southwest. Who is right? It depends on what you go by and who you ask. Just like determining the worlds busiest airport. Is it by passengers flown or by movements or operations (take offs-and landings).

    Im not trying to argue with you. I think we are not on the same wave length though. I agreee with everything you say about Southwest service and their effect on air service in America. I wish they would eventually tap into the International market but that might not ever happen. Who knows..........?

    What do you think?

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    The average income when every citizen in Dallas is taken into acount is $75,225? That is astounding! Look, I'm just arguing that the DFW airport is a fallen institution primarily because of the leadership in Dallas. Just talk to other people in a chatroom about Dallas and you will see that there is a perception that the place is a desert, has conservatives who hate liberals and is still a bastion for racist, redneck cowboys. Political leaders in Atlanta realize how important unity is when attracting business and that is why they got UPS and Dallas didn't. However, you are right when you say that the city of Dallas is growing, but I think that is because people have always wanted to live close to downtown and whites have realized that even minorities are trying to outrun crime and poor schools. I actually think that the commuter rail is something which is Austinish. It makes Dallas more of an intimate city. It has been like bypass surgery to the city, opening up the other transportation arteries into downtown. I also think that the museum-like train stations are a classic and something unique to Dallas. But sorry, I can't go against my gut feeling and what I know to be true. Dallas is the rotten core in the barrel which is the DFW area.
    And most people here, along with most airline analysts, would disagree with you. DFW is struggling because of AA's monopoly and the restulting overall high fares from DFW. Dallas is not rotting, and racism, I would warrant, is far more of a problem in Arlington (or particularly Atlanta!) than it is in dallas. I live in New York, and up here, people tend to think of Dallas as a far more open minded city than Atlanta, Houston, or other typical sunbelt cities. Dallas, Miami and Austin are the cities most people up here would consider the 'most moderate, least die-hard conservative' cities in the south. I don't know if that's true, but that is what I have generally found the perception to be.

    I think its funny that you think the light and commuter rail are "austin-ish" when Austin is just now, ten years later, looking at finally getting a commuter rail line.

    The one thing I will concede to you is that the Dallas convention traffic has already rotted. That probably does have a major effect on traffic to the area.

  26. #326
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    Didnt they just complete a massive expansion to the Dallas Conv Center? Dallas is losing out to more leisure destinations like Las Vegas and resorts like Gaylord in Grapevine that is virtually next door to DFW. I read an article about it. Perhaps I can find it and start a new topic.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by FortWorthGuy
    I wish they would eventually tap into the International market but that might not ever happen. Who knows..........?

    What do you think?
    From what I have read, SWA is lobbied hard every year by over 200 domestic cites to serve them. So far only 62 markets have the characteristics that meet the SWA business/costs model.

    It looks like SWA is adding 2 or 3 markets each year to their point to point service model. When you add in all the additional burdens/costs/requirements it takes any airline to operate into other countries, I doubt that SWA will choose to grow internationally when there are still many domestic markets for them to grow into.

    On the other hand, SWA and ATA are pleased with the code share arrangement they have. It has added many millions of dollars of revenue to both airlines with little additional costs. ATA does operate to a few international cities. Looking at both carriers websites, I see you can currently book a flight from many SWA cities to HNL and OGG (almost international in scope of airline operations). Future expanded code share might be a way for SWA to "effectively" grow internationally.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    It looks like SWA is adding 2 or 3 markets each year to their point to point service model. When you add in all the additional burdens/costs/requirements it takes any airline to operate into other countries, I doubt that SWA will choose to grow internationally when there are still many domestic markets for them to grow into.
    I heard the CFO say in an interview that they plan on adding international routes within five years.

  29. #329
    High-Rise Member TexasPlus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tnekster
    I heard the CFO say in an interview that they plan on adding international routes within five years.
    Intersting. I googled the heck out of this, but can't find anything at all on it. Any idea where I can find out more info, or at least the full quote?

  30. #330
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    Virgin America looking at D/FW Airport
    Margaret Allen - Staff Writer
    http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas...ml?t=printable

    British entrepreneur Richard Branson's splashy, U.S. startup Virgin America has named Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport as one of 35 markets it may serve if allowed to begin operating. Virgin named D/FW in its Dec. 9 filing with the U.S. Department of Transportation. The DOT determines Virgin's ownership fitness, citizenship and airworthiness, said Stacy Geagan, a spokeswoman for Virgin. The airline also notified D/FW Airport that it may be seeking gates if allowed to start service.

    San Francisco-based Virgin is majority owned by investment group VAI Partners L.L.C., which in November supplied the airline with $177.3 million in financing. A minority interest is held by the U.K.-based Virgin Group companies, which is headed by Branson and includes Virgin Atlantic Airways, according to Virgin America's Web site. Geagan said Virgin is considering D/FW and the 34 other potential markets because the carrier considers them underserved by low-fare carriers. Virgin hopes to offer low-fare service competitive with the handful of other low-fare U.S. carriers.

    Of the 20 airlines now flying out of D/FW, six are low-cost carriers. D/FW has been laboring in recent years to expand its share of low-cost carriers. Fort Worth-based American Airlines Inc. offers some 80 percent of D/FW's flights, which has long had a reputation for high average fares. Legacy carriers Continental Airlines Inc. (NYSE: CAL), based in Houston, Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc., Fort Worth-based American (NYSE: AMR) and Elk Grove Township, Ill.-based United Airlines have all filed objections to Virgin's application with the DOT, Geagan said.

    Because of that, the original DOT deadline to rule on the application has been extended, but Virgin hasn't been informed of the exact date, she said. The hope is to launch service this year, Geagan said. A D/FW spokesman confirmed that D/FW Airport plans Thursday to file a letter with the DOT supporting Virgin's application to start domestic passenger service. "We can confirm that the letter is going to be filed tomorrow in support of Virgin America opening up service as a low-cost carrier in the United States and hopefully, of course, becoming one of our low-cost carriers," said Brian Murnahan, an airport spokesman.

    Web site: www.virginamerica.com

    mallen@bizjournals.com | 214-706-7119
    “We shape our Cities, thereafter they shape us.”

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    I love a good Virgin!

    j/k--Virgin would be awesome!!! ...I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

  32. #332
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    ^ I remember reading a thread on this on the Airliners.net forum. It looks like Virgin America will be based out of San Fransico (for some strange reason), but most of the forumers were suggesting it would make more sense for this new airline to take advantage of DFW's offer on the former Delta gates in Terminal E. At the very least, other forumers were suggesting Virgin America will probably make DFW some sort of focus city with more than just a daily flight or two to SFO.

    I think that a Richard Branson backed discount airline could take on AA and give them a run!!
    By the power of greyskull!

  33. #333
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    DFW should really be making friends with Branson. With Virgin Galactic poised to transform the way we look at space forever, DFW could become one of the nation's first air- and space-ports. A thrilling time to live in... I really hope DFW is paying attention and starting whatever wheels need to be turned in motion.

  34. #334
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    well just did some more research... looks like, initially at least, the world's first (and for a few years perhaps only?) privitized spaceport will be in New Mexico. Maybe DFW will be allowed to handle some connecting flights to the Spaceport, though. http://www.virgingalactic.com/en/news.asp

  35. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasPlus
    Intersting. I googled the heck out of this, but can't find anything at all on it. Any idea where I can find out more info, or at least the full quote?
    It was on the news one night, probably at least a month ago but don't remember an exact date. It was Gary Kelly, I guess he is the CEO now not CFO.

  36. #336
    honestruerealman
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    Atlanta is ahead of Dallas in political sophistication

    Quote Originally Posted by msutton
    And most people here, along with most airline analysts, would disagree with you. DFW is struggling because of AA's monopoly and the restulting overall high fares from DFW. Dallas is not rotting, and racism, I would warrant, is far more of a problem in Arlington (or particularly Atlanta!) than it is in dallas. I live in New York, and up here, people tend to think of Dallas as a far more open minded city than Atlanta, Houston, or other typical sunbelt cities. Dallas, Miami and Austin are the cities most people up here would consider the 'most moderate, least die-hard conservative' cities in the south. I don't know if that's true, but that is what I have generally found the perception to be.

    I think its funny that you think the light and commuter rail are "austin-ish" when Austin is just now, ten years later, looking at finally getting a commuter rail line.

    The one thing I will concede to you is that the Dallas convention traffic has already rotted. That probably does have a major effect on traffic to the area.
    Okay. Let us use Atlanta as the best example. Atlanta has Delta and how has Delta been doing lately? Not good. Horrible in fact. But Atlanta's airport has far surpassed that of DFWs. And UPS chose Atlanta because of its sophisticated political leadership. There might not be real racial harmony in that city, but they certainly do act like there is and that is what they have figured out. The real question to this whole topic is why has DFW's traffic dropped off when compared to that of Atlanta and Chicago and I feel that it is because of the bickering by Dallas politicians. Not the corruption at DFW. That has always been there. I think word gets out when leaders in the Dallas proper start airing their dirty laundry to the national and international news and that causes a black mark on the whole metropolitan area. People do indeed think that racism still exists in the city. The Black Panthers started up again in Dallas for cripes sake. Did you happen to notice the desert scene in north Dallas at the beginning of the X-file movie? Most people are shocked when you tell them that the area surrounding Dallas isn't a wasteland like that. They laugh when you tell them that the city is surrounded by lakes. I know that I am not wrong about this. You never hear leaders in Fort Worth or in some of the other smaller suburbs airing their dirty political laundry in public, like leaders do in Dallas. You are definately in denial on this matter. I am not saying that the city is not a great one. I am saying that it isn't near as great as it used to be and that it has a serious problem right now that could scare off all these wealthy people moving in and around downtown, unless certain issues are addressed. On the matter of the commuter rail in Dallas feeling like it is something that should be in Austin? To me Austin has always been more intimate and defined than Dallas, but the commuter rail kind of sews the city together. It is a smashing success in my opinion and people in Austin should feel jeolous of it.
    Last edited by honestruerealman; 11 January 2006 at 11:35 PM. Reason: I need to add something about Austin and do a little cleaning up.

  37. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by honestruerealman
    But Atlanta's airport has far surpassed that of DFWs. And UPS chose Atlanta because of its sophisticated political leadership. There might not be real racial harmony in that city, but they certainly do act like there is and that is what they have figured out.

    The real question to this whole topic is why has DFW's traffic dropped off when compared to that of Atlanta and Chicago and I feel that it is because of the bickering by Dallas politicians.
    Okay, my opinion is that you are way off base with regard to political leadership in Atlanta and Georgia. The current mayor of Atlanta is praised repeatedly for being the one who finally has cleaned up the rampant corruption of the past 5 decades in city government. Shirley Franklin is pretty sophisticated in her political approach - something of an open book policy, but it's only been four years. Previous mayors and high ranking city/county officials regularly struggling to stay out of jail. Think about the problems Tom DeLay is having; that's the kind of touble Atlanta and Georgia politicians get into.

    Racial harmony in the Dirty South? My impression is that racial harmony in the Atlanta Metro area is, um, very out of tune. Compared to DFW and Southern California, I've encountered far more bigots in the Atlanta area.

    I think DFW has underperformed because American Airlines ticket prices are too high. Which examples of screwy Dallas politics are you considering which have had such an impact on the plain ticket buying public? Like, people in Dallas dont really follow local politics, why would anyone anywhere else in the country pay attention?

  38. #338
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    Well, I know that I am not wrong on my statements either. Obviously we know different people.

    Atlanta's airport does not suffer from AA's underhanded tactics for fighting competitors. It is doing better because it has been more diversified than DFW. AA is what is killing DFW (the "double-edged sword" as FortWorthGuy calls it). Atlanta with sophisticated political leadership? You're mention of it is the first I've heard of it. So, no, it is obviously not something the public at large knows about. The politics of other cities are not generally the nature of national news, because frankly, who cares? In New York, I couldn't give a rat's ass about the local leadership in Seatle, Atlanta, Houston, or whatnot. The only reason that I know anything about Dallas' leadership is my familial connection to the city. Maybe students of governance or politics are well versed on other, distant city's municiple leaders, but I somehow doubt that some chap in London decided to fly to Atlanta instead of DFW because he thinks that Atlanta has "sophistocated political leadership" and Dallas does not.

    As for racism, again, I've never gotten the impression that it exists more in Dallas than anywhere else, nor that anyone else I've known here in the northeast feels that it is even as bad as "most of the south." We get criticized for our connections to Bush more than anything else. Out of curiosity, where do you live?

    I was unaware that the bickering of Dallas city council members was made national news, as living here in NYC I've yet to hear or read anything on the subject thats not been posted on this messageboard. Yet, there have been several major stories by national newspapers highlighting the city's progress. You can search the forums for any of these, or if you like, I can dig out the links myself. If you have some major stories on the bickering of Dallas politicians or whatnot, I'd love to read those too.

  39. #339
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    Virgin America looking at D/FW Airport
    Margaret Allen
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    British entrepreneur Richard Branson's splashy, U.S. startup Virgin America has named Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport as one of 35 markets it may serve if allowed to begin operating.

    Virgin named D/FW in its Dec. 9 filing with the U.S. Department of Transportation. The DOT determines Virgin's ownership fitness, citizenship and airworthiness, said Stacy Geagan, a spokeswoman for Virgin. The airline also notified D/FW Airport that it may be seeking gates if allowed to start service.

    San Francisco-based Virgin is majority owned by investment group VAI Partners L.L.C., which in November supplied the airline with $177.3 million in financing. A minority interest is held by the U.K.-based Virgin Group companies, which is headed by Branson and includes Virgin Atlantic Airways, according to Virgin America's Web site.

    Geagan said Virgin is considering D/FW and the 34 other potential markets because the carrier considers them underserved by low-fare carriers. Virgin hopes to offer low-fare service competitive with the handful of other low-fare U.S. carriers.

    Of the 20 airlines now flying out of D/FW, six are low-cost carriers. D/FW has been laboring in recent years to expand its share of low-cost carriers. Fort Worth-based American Airlines Inc. offers some 80 percent of D/FW's flights, which has long had a reputation for high average fares.

    Legacy carriers Continental Airlines Inc. (NYSE: CAL), based in Houston, Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc., Fort Worth-based American (NYSE: AMR) and Elk Grove Township, Ill.-based United Airlines have all filed objections to Virgin's application with the DOT, Geagan said.

    Because of that, the original DOT deadline to rule on the application has been extended, but Virgin hasn't been informed of the exact date, she said. The hope is to launch service this year, Geagan said.

    A D/FW spokesman confirmed that D/FW Airport plans Thursday to file a letter with the DOT supporting Virgin's application to start domestic passenger service.

    "We can confirm that the letter is going to be filed tomorrow in support of Virgin America opening up service as a low-cost carrier in the United States and hopefully, of course, becoming one of our low-cost carriers," said Brian Murnahan, an airport spokesman.

    Web site: www.virginamerica.com

  40. #340
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    Some of us are wandering off subject. Atlanta vs Dallas politics has nothing to do with DFW. I have stated many times what needs to happen at DFW and change is well on its way courtesy of Southwest Airlines.

    Set Love Free! Get rid of the Wright Amendment and both Love and DFW will flourish!

  41. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by slfunk
    Legacy carriers Continental Airlines Inc. (NYSE: CAL), based in Houston, Atlanta-based Delta Air Lines Inc., Fort Worth-based American (NYSE: AMR) and Elk Grove Township, Ill.-based United Airlines have all filed objections to Virgin's application with the DOT, Geagan said. [/url]
    Is their objection that they are losing money, providing poor service and don't want any competition?

    Someone here must know, what is the basis for objecting?
    Last edited by JaeTex; 12 January 2006 at 12:38 PM.

  42. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaeTex
    Is their objection that they are losing money, providing poor service and don't want any competition?
    Yeap. I'm sure all (especially United) will say something like they don't want another airline taking up space at the already cramped and usually fogged in San Fransico Int'l airport, but I think it's mostly the legacy airlines REALLY don't need another LCC starting up operations right now.
    By the power of greyskull!

  43. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamtagon
    Okay, my opinion is that you are way off base with regard to political leadership in Atlanta and Georgia. The current mayor of Atlanta is praised repeatedly for being the one who finally has cleaned up the rampant corruption of the past 5 decades in city government. Shirley Franklin is pretty sophisticated in her political approach - something of an open book policy, but it's only been four years. Previous mayors and high ranking city/county officials regularly struggling to stay out of jail. Think about the problems Tom DeLay is having; that's the kind of touble Atlanta and Georgia politicians get into.

    Racial harmony in the Dirty South? My impression is that racial harmony in the Atlanta Metro area is, um, very out of tune. Compared to DFW and Southern California, I've encountered far more bigots in the Atlanta area.

    I think DFW has underperformed because American Airlines ticket prices are too high. Which examples of screwy Dallas politics are you considering which have had such an impact on the plain ticket buying public? Like, people in Dallas dont really follow local politics, why would anyone anywhere else in the country pay attention?
    It is important to pay attention when the political leaders in the Dallas city proper criticize the city irresponsibly, because companies might be thinking about moving to the area. That means jobs and money for the citizens in the metropolitan area. That is why it is important for the city of Dallas to put forth its best image, in that it is the prime flagship for the area. Anyway, I'm finished with the topic. Reading above, I do find it interesting that while Atlanta's airport is far and away busier than DFW airport, the vast majority of the airlines servicing it seem to be operating in the red. One has to wonder if the spoke system where people fly to one airport and then transfer, isn't dying as a concept. Certainly Southwest Airlines doesn't believe in the concept. Perhaps a smaller, less busy DFW airport, in regards to passenger traffic, would be better for the Dallas Fort Worth area over the long run? How does Dallas benefit when people get off one plane for a few hours and then get on another one? If airport management has been mistaken about the airports future and it is in the cards for DFW to shrink, they should admit to it now and go ahead and bite the bullet. Unlike passenger traffic, freight traffic is good for the people who live in the DFW area and it is expanding tremendously. If the airport actually shrinks in the future and a passenger terminal isn't needed, perhaps it could be converted into a mall?

  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by JaeTex
    Is their objection that they are losing money, providing poor service and don't want any competition?

    Someone here must know, what is the basis for objecting?
    I believe the basis is foreign ownership concerns... although Virgin America would technically be majority owned by US investors, the other airlines are questioning the financing and what level of control Branson would have over it.

  45. #345
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    http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont....637f7555.html

    D/FW expects decreased revenue

    12:40 PM CST on Thursday, February 2, 2006

    By SUZANNE MARTA / The Dallas Morning News

    Cutbacks by American Airlines Inc. and other carriers and higher energy costs will cause revenue at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport to be $35 million to $39 million, or about 6 percent, less than projected, airport officials said Thursday morning.

    The new financial projections reflect changes made during the airport’s first fiscal quarter, which ended in December.

    Driving the projected shortfall are recent schedule reductions.

    In December, Fort Worth-based American announced it would cut 31 daily flights from its schedule in order to shift 16 daily flights to Dallas Love Field, where it will compete directly with Southwest Airlines Co.

    Those cuts, along with reductions in service by ATA Airlines Inc., AirTran Airways Inc. and Northwest Airlines Inc., will cause landing fee revenue — which, at 33 percent, is the airport's largest revenue source — to be $20.2 million less than expected.

    Airport staff hopes to cut that shortfall by applying $21.25 million in savings from bond refinancing, tightening budgets where possible and possibly deferring some projects.

    If the gap between the new revenue projections and expenses can't be closed, the airport's signature airlines would have to cover any shortfall through landing fees or a payment at the end of the year.

    E-mail smarta@dallasnews.com
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  46. #346
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    DFW Airport should stop wasting time& MONEY on the Wright Amendment and focus their energy on adding new carriers that can help pay the bills. I wonder how much $$$ they have spent on the "PR Campaign" against Wright.

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by St-T
    DFW Airport should stop wasting time& MONEY on the Wright Amendment and focus their energy on adding new carriers that can help pay the bills. I wonder how much $$$ they have spent on the "PR Campaign" against Wright.
    You don't think they are agressively trying to lure carriers to the airport? Trust me they are. Two things keep carriers away: AA and the Wright fight. The way I see it Wright will be gone in a few years or it will go away one state at a time. Wright has allowed AA to establish their fortress at DFW and gain so much control over DFW. This is the reason why DFW is not flourishing like it should be. We need a carrier to compete fiercely with AA at DFW. Delta has AirTran to deal with at Hartsfield and AA has United to deal with at Ohare and WN at Midway. I think AA's market share should be around 70% then we would see substantial growth at DFW.

  48. #348
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    D/FW may have to tap carriers' wallets

    Airport projects shortfall, and tenants are required to chip in

    12:00 AM CST on Friday, February 3, 2006

    By SUZANNE MARTA / The Dallas Morning News

    American Airlines Inc. and other carriers may have to kick in more money to cover expenses at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport because of a projected revenue shortfall, officials said Thursday.

    The lighter revenue, expected to be as much as $39 million below expectations, or 6 percent, is largely the result of airlines cutting back their schedules at D/FW.

    The deficit also reflects American's later-than-expected move into D/FW's new international terminal, as well as higher energy costs for the airport.

    American is by far the largest carrier at D/FW, accounting for 86 percent of passenger traffic.

    But the carrier is relocating some of its service to Dallas Love Field to compete directly against Southwest Airlines Co. American also has temporarily canceled some flights to lower fuel expenses.

    Those cuts, along with reductions in service by ATA Airlines Inc., AirTran Airways Inc. and Northwest Airlines Inc., will cause landing fee revenue to be $20.2 million less than expected.

    Landing fees account for 33 percent of D/FW's revenue – the airport's largest revenue source.

    D/FW, like most large airports, has a residual financial structure that requires the main tenant airlines to cover any expenses not covered by revenue.

    At smaller airports, including Love Field, the burden of paying for expenses falls to the airport owner, such as a city or county board. Love has also faced a shortfall in the last several years.

    Airports nationwide are coping with financial strain from their key tenants, said Alan Sbarra, an aviation consultant in San Francisco.

    "The legacy carriers are pulling back flights," he said. "Most of the growth is happening at secondary airports because that's where most of the low-cost carriers are."

    Airport staff members couldn't recall if the airport has ever had to go to carriers for a significant cash infusion to cover expenses. Officials said they hope they can eliminate the shortfall by Sept. 30, when D/FW's fiscal year ends.

    The airport has already identified $21.25 million in savings related to bond refinancing that could be applied against expenses, said Jeff Fegan, D/FW's chief executive.

    Budgets would be tightened where possible, and some capital projects may be deferred. Another option might be to raise landing fees, a move that would require airline approval.

    Layoffs are not being considered. "We don't have a lot of people just sitting around," Mr. Fegan said. "Those reductions were all made after 2001."

    For much of D/FW's history, the so-called signatory airlines have received an annual refund check.

    Even after the 9/11 attacks, which caused a dramatic decline in revenue, D/FW was able to slash its costs and offer carriers a $2.8 million refund. Last year, the airport refunded $12.8 million.

    An extra bill at the end of the year would be a "speed bump" for American, but "we're confident [D/FW] will be able to manage its budget given the current situation," said spokesman Tim Wagner.

    E-mail smarta@dallasnews.com
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  49. #349
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    So DFW made their bed with AA and now they are feeling the pain that comes with it. I feel no pain for them.

  50. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyIvey
    Maybe we're guaging the success of DFW with the wrong numbers. Do we care how many people land here? I care about how many leave the airport and spend money. I believe connecting flights are considered in a lot of the figures shown here. The taxes for those passengers are great, but does that compare with someone that leaves the airport and spends money in the area?
    How much tax revenue does North Texas get for each connecting passenger? I'm guessing it is close to zero.

    Besides the sales tax from a magazine purchased at one of (insert name of politically connected crony here: ) Rep. E.B. Johnson's newsstands, what other taxes do we collect?

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