Orange Line - DFW Airport Rail Connection

[darkblood]

Centerpoint station is technically in T territory... would DART be willing to foot the bill to extend the line on 'foreign soil'? (unless in the future we have some scenario where all the transit agencies morph into one big region-wide agency)

Well the two agencies already work together a lot. It wouldn't take much for a DART line to connect to A T Line in T territory.

Where exactly would they transfer to the orange line? Also, I think they are trying to avoid a scenario where one line gets preferred access to the airport to the detriment of the other two... if one has to transfer, they all should transfer.

I guess another option is to have everyone transfer at the proposed TOD neighborhood just north of DFW. Then there could be a light-rail line running North and South through the airport stretching all the way from Centerport to the proposed TOD neighborhood north of DFW. The line running through the airport could be owned by DART, The T, or shared between both.

[saxman66]

Since the FTW and Plano trains will be of the commuter type... I'm envisioning a scenario similar to the TRE at Union station (commuter rail at the terminal stop)... the trains sit and wait for quite some time until their next scheduled run... now multiply that by 2 for 2 lines, and run this out into the future when ridership on both lines has just exploded and they reduce both lines to 20 minute headways... still 2 tracks?

At first yes, the Cotton Belt will be in way before the Plano line is ever finished. Now I'm not for certain on this but I always envisioned the Cotton Belt running from FTW through all the way to Plano, same train, no transfer. Yet it would still make a stop at DFW and then make a reverse move and continue in that same direction the rest of the trip. Now I have no idea what the plan is, but I was assuming it would eventually be on one service, not two.

With that said, it would add a great deal of time to ones commute if they were going from Plano through to Fort Worth. Rather then not going into the airport and going straight through. Now maybe someone else knows but is the Cotton Belt going to be T project and the Plano line going to be a totally separate DART project. Hopefully they can work together and do it just like the TRE and make it one line.

[JCL]

I guess another option is to have everyone transfer at the proposed TOD neighborhood just north of DFW. Then there could be a light-rail line running North and South through the airport stretching all the way from Centerport to the proposed TOD neighborhood north of DFW. The line running through the airport could be owned by DART, The T, or shared between both.

That's exactly what the RTC is debating... I think they want to do this with an eye to the future... how to do this with the least pain to riders - yet have the most efficient commingling of all the lines. If there has to be a transfer (for everyone) to get to their destination (whether it be walking or dropping at the gate) then it should be a maximum of one transfer.

[darkblood]

At first yes, the Cotton Belt will be in way before the Plano line is ever finished. Now I'm not for certain on this but I always envisioned the Cotton Belt running from FTW through all the way to Plano, same train, no transfer. Yet it would still make a stop at DFW and then make a reverse move and continue in that same direction the rest of the trip. Now I have no idea what the plan is, but I was assuming it would eventually be on one service, not two.

With that said, it would add a great deal of time to ones commute if they were going from Plano through to Fort Worth. Rather then not going into the airport and going straight through. Now maybe someone else knows but is the Cotton Belt going to be T project and the Plano line going to be a totally separate DART project. Hopefully they can work together and do it just like the TRE and make it one line.

For the people who are going between FT-Worth and Plano, and don't want to stop at the Airport this would be great. Believe it or not, I would love to take a train down to Sundance Square. Then we could do our annual bar run without worrying about where we parked and how drunk we are.

[JCL]

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2009/...o-dfw-airport/

Planners from both sides of the region have been formulating ways to connect their cities to the air hub, and there are several plans on the books. The 14-mile DART Orange Line light rail system will connect downtown Dallas and Irving with the airport in 2013; current plans have the system terminating between the airport’s terminals A and B. Meanwhile, Tarrant County is planning the Southwest-to-Northeast Rail Corridor, which will run from southwest Fort Worth to the airport along a former freight route; that system would connect with the Orange Line at the same stub terminal in the airport zone. Finally, a longer term project would use the “Cotton Belt” transit line between DFW and Plano, via Carrollton and Addision, to provide commuter trains to the airport by 2027.

There are several problems with those initial plans: they force commuters attempting to transfer from one commuter line to another to do so at the airport, which would cause confusion and added congestion there; they prevent through-running trains from Plano to Fort Worth; finally, they prevent the future expansion of the Orange light rail line because of the stub-end situation. Now under discussion, thus, is a proposal to connect the three lines and Skylink at a hub north of the airport that would allow through-running and an extension of the Orange Line. This would require an extension of Skylink, a realignment of the Orange Line, and an elimination of airport access by the Southwest-to-Northeast Corridor and the Cotten Belt Line. Below are schematic maps showing the proposed changes.

In many ways, the changes are rational - like the Phoenix Sky Harbor’s proposed airport train, placing the airport transit hub off campus allows people commuting by transit but not attempting to access the airport fewer inconveniences, whereas airport commuters are simply suggested to transfer to an easily accessible people mover that goes to the terminals. It should be pointed out as well that many people arriving at the airport under the original transit plan would be required to switch to the terminal link buses anyway if they need to get to terminals C, D, or E, so the amount of time required to get to the gate for 3/5 of airport users will hardly increase. Meanwhile, the future expansion of the Orange Line and the interconnectivity of the two commuter rail lines are worthwhile considerations and make the new plan an improvement over the old.

Expansion of the orange line? To where, Flower Mound? I didn't know there were future plans for the orange line beyond the airport?

[dfwcre8tive]

http://thetransportpolitic.com/2009/...o-dfw-airport/




Expansion of the orange line? To where, Flower Mound? I didn't know there were future plans for the orange line beyond the airport?

I haven't heard of any future plans beyond DFW for the Orange Line. Could it be a way of enticing Flower Mound to rejoin DART in the future?

Here are the diagrams from that article:

[mrowl]

Is Flower Mound eligible to join DART? (their sales tax is at 8.25%)

[Double Wide]

This could give you an interesting station design (think round with 4 entries for trains/trams/etc...)

Give me a week and i could draw up something cool.

[JCL]

Is Flower Mound eligible to join DART? (their sales tax is at 8.25%)

According to RobertB's Wiki entry:

The cities of Coppell and Flower Mound were original members of DART. However, after voters in the DART service area rejected a 1988 ballot measure plan which would have allowed DART to take on long-term debt, the cities placed measures on the 1989 ballot to withdraw from DART, and the voters approved the measures.

Coppell remains eligible to rejoin DART, as it borders three DART member cities (Dallas, Irving, and Carrollton).

Flower Mound is no longer eligible to rejoin DART as it does not border a DART member city. Flower Mound voters were asked to join DCTA in 2003 but rejected that measure as well.

So it sounds like FM could rejoin *if* Coppell rejoins first... I think if they make a T/Orange/Cotton transit center in that spot... that would be a huge carrot for Coppell and FM to consider rejoining.

*edit* I just read your note about the taxes... yeah, that poses another entirely different problem for FM (and even possibly Coppell) rejoining... but look at what's going on with NRH and Colleyville with the sw2ne... they are scrambling and may just come up with a way to do it... depending on their success, FM and Coppell could follow suit.

[JCL]

This could give you an interesting station design (think round with 4 entries for trains/trams/etc...)

Give me a week and i could draw up something cool.

Be sure and draw up a concept for a high speed rail stop there as well

[electricron]

While I understand why NCTCOG is recommending a DFW super transit center in Grapevine, I just don't see Dart's Board Members approving to send light rail trains there. But I can see Dart Board Members approving to send future Cotton Belt DMUs there.

The extension of DFW's new People Mover guideways will have to be at least 2 miles from the planned wye location of the Cotton Belt train station to the Terminals A & B train station location. Assuming DFW extends the People Mover 2 miles, using a single double guideway branch through the People Movers maintenance yard, at 40 mph top speed, it'll take the PM vehicles up to 4 minutes to travel just in one direction from the loop, 8 minutes for a round trip. Because PM vehicles headways are much closer together, it'll require another transfer over an above trains to PM vehicles transfer. It'll also add 8 minutes of additional travel using the PM between the east and west side terminals for those just wishing to travel between DFW terminals. There's a valid reason why the PM wasn't extended to the remote parking lots, to keep the PM loop as short as possible to reduce overall travel times, and to keep costs as low as possible.

If, to keep PM headways as short as they are now, DFW extends the loop to the Cotton Belt station, they will have to add at least 4 miles to the guideways, which is longer than the existing guideways. The same 8 minutes travel time between east and west side DFW terminals still exists. The PM will still access the wrong half (the air side) at DFW air terminals.

There's also the problem of getting Dart's light rail trains across SH 121 into Grapevine, which will require a redesign to both construction projects which are already very close to be under contract to be built. NCTCOG should have planned for this scheme years ago. I think it's a little too late to be changing plans now.

I still believe it will be far cheaper and better to build both type of train stations at DFW terminals as we have discussed before.

[JCL]

While I understand why NCTCOG is recommending a DFW super transit center in Grapevine, I just don't see Dart's Board Members approving to send light rail trains there. But I can see Dart Board Members approving to send future Cotton Belt DMUs there.

I *REALLY* want to listen to their discussions first-hand to pick up on the issues they are talking about... someone must have raised a valid issue for this case or they wouldn't be bothering discussing it in the first place...

At the 4/9/09 RTC meeting they barely mentioned this issue in passing - are the meat of the discussions actually happening in the STTC sub-committee?

There's also the problem of getting Dart's light rail trains across SH 121 into Grapevine, which will require a redesign to both construction projects which are already very close to be under contract to be built. NCTCOG should have planned for this scheme years ago. I think it's a little too late to be changing plans now.

Since the 'DFW connector' is already in the works, can't they just slip in a provision for the rail lines? They would have to do this anyway for sw2ne and CB to come into the airport from the north.

[mrowl]

There's also the problem of getting Dart's light rail trains across SH 121 into Grapevine, which will require a redesign to both construction projects which are already very close to be under contract to be built. NCTCOG should have planned for this scheme years ago. I think it's a little too late to be changing plans now.

I do see the issue with the Orange line terminating at DFW though.

A BIG WHAT IF.

What if Coppell and \ or Flower Mound come up with a way to join DART? (much later down the road)

The Orange line could head north up 121 to a coppell station, and even run up north along FM 2499.......

(big if)

[electricron]

I do see the issue with the Orange line terminating at DFW though.

A BIG WHAT IF.

What if Coppell and \ or Flower Mound come up with a way to join DART? (much later down the road)

The Orange line could head north up 121 to a coppell station, and even run up north along FM 2499.......

(big if)

It's more likely Flower Mound would join DCTA and save a 1/2 cent in sales taxes rather than joining Dart. Coppell could get stations on the Cotton Belt route, which would tie into Dart's Red & Green lines directly, and Dart's Orange line (directly or indirectly depending upon what's done at DFW). There should be no need to extend the Orange line north for a long, long time into Coppell.

I prefer what NCTCOG has planned now for Grapevine's DFW Airport station goes. Build a wye intersection, and place platforms on the south leg of the wye, and a platform on the north through section of the wye. I visualize at least two, possibly three color train routes on the Cotton Belt, one color for Plano to FW trains, and at least one color (towards DFW), if not two colors (towards DFW from both the east and west). There's also the possibility of DCTA in the far future having a train color heading towards DFW.

Dart is short on capital to be changing their Orange line plans. I don't see the need for the Orange line to go to Grapevine. Keeping the DFW Cotton Belt station simple is easy if it only serves one type of rail. What NCTCOG is suggesting complicates the station design significantly, with four different types of transit (light & regional rail, people mover & buses) servicing one station.

If a large transit center is built at Grapvine's DFW train station, I doubt any rail lines will be built to any DFW terminal. They'll use shuttle buses the last two plus miles.

[JCL]

What NCTCOG is suggesting complicates the station design significantly, with three different types of transit servicing one station.

Four if you add high speed rail

[electricron]

Four if you add high speed rail

No, we'll be up to five modes when you add HSR and buses.

I don't visualize HSR going further north than DFW's south remote parking lot.
That's why I suggest building both rail lines to the DFW terminals, which can be extended further south if and when HSR arrives.

[JCL]

I don't visualize HSR going further north than DFW's south remote parking lot.

Shhh, don't tell them that... they may just do something silly like run them all to Grapevine

[JCL]

I just looked through the agenda for the upcoming STTC subcommittee meeting and there is nothing in there about this... where in the world are these talks taking place?

[JCL]

Finally found something... this is from the SPD subcommittee 1/23/09 meeting:

http://www.nctcog.org/trans/spd/tran...es_1_23_09.pdf

Participants discussed the importance of passenger access and security interface at the DFW International Airport Station.
Several issues were raised including:
��
Should the Cotton Belt corridor provide access to proposed Terminal A & B Station?
��
Should the Orange Line provide a connection to the Cotton Belt corridor or end at the Terminal A & B Station?
��
Should the airport extend the People Mover system north to connect with the Cotton Belt corridor?
It was suggested that rail access to the airport be one focus of the next strategy meeting and Jeffrey Fegan, Chief Executive Officer, Dallas-Fort Worth International Airport should be in attendance for the discussion.

I will definitely be on the lookout for their next meeting.

[JCL]

Also, it looks like this is the body that's discussing whether to keep the hulen-airport and airport-plano segments separate or treat it as one long corridor.

[tamtagon]

^Thanks JCL. It sure does seem like the decisions about how the different lines will converge at DFW is going to have a huge impact on how people will use the trains.

[dfwcre8tive]

DART CEO: Orange Line route to D/FW through Irving could change
3:05 PM Thu, May 07, 2009
Michael Lindenberger/Reporter
http://transportationblog.dallasnews...-route-to.html

Will the DART Orange Line through Irving will connect to D/FW International Airport through Irving, as city leaders have long planned? It remains unclear, said DART CEO Gary Thomas.

Thomas told me a few minutes ago that it's still possible that the route to the airport will be changed. That won't please Irving leaders, but Thomas said if the Cotton Belt line is built it could make more sense to arrive at the airport from the north, rather than from Irving.

The possibility that the route could be changed alarmed Irving earlier this year, when the North Central Texas Council of Governmentsbegan studying alternatives. Last month, however, the COG declined to recommend a change.

Still, the idea is alive, Thomas said today. "To say we made a commitment (to connect to D/FW through teh Orange Line), well that is not correct."

...

[mjblazin]

That would mean that you had to go to Plano first to get to the airport? and not till 2030?

[mrowl]

I think it just means that the orange line would go north to a transit center, with the cotton belt line.

[incrediculous]

I think it just means that the orange line would go north to a transit center, with the cotton belt line.

Sounds annoying.

[Double Wide]

keep it the way it is planned.

[aygriffith]

People won't ride this for the same reason few ride the TRE... it doesn't go directly to the airport. Look at the easy access that you have at airports like ATL and ORD. Why are we short changing ourselves?

[NThomas]

This just sounds like the proposal to have a "hub" station with the SW2NE line, the cotton belt, and the orange line thats all.

[JCL]

I think the carrot for the airport to want to do this is telling them that they can have TOD revenues on airport property (the site for a possible north hub station would still be in the bounds of the airport).

[DallasMan]

Why are they jacking up our airport connections? First, we realize that the "Love Field" stop will be connected to the airport by a people mover, at best, rather than an in-terminal stop. Now, they want to re-route and delay our connection to DFW? UGH.

[palchik]

DFW is pretty tough to serve by rail anyway because of its decentralized design. In many airports (Atlanta and Denver for example), check in and baggage claims are all in a single location, while the terminals and gates branch out from there. So everyone begins and ends their trips at the same place. This is perfect for providing a transit connection.

DFW is built very differently. When it was designed in the 60s/70s, DFW was innovative in that it allowed almost front door drive-up access to everyone in every terminal (the car was king!). At that time, it was assumed that you would always arrive and depart from the same terminal. That is no longer the case. American Airlines is in 3 different terminals, so its very likely that you will depart from one terminal but arrive back at another one.

So, imagine you arrive by train at some new station on airport property. How do you get to your departure gate? Do you use the airport people mover? Not likely, since it is on the "secure side" of the terminals. In order to use it, a security check-point would have to be built at the new rail station, and all checked-in bags would have to somehow be delivered to the appropriate gate at the appropriate terminal in time for every flight. Check-in stations would also need to be provided for each airline, meaning this rail station would need to be huge.

But thats not all, what happens when you land? At DFW you have to leave the secure side of the terminal to claim your bags, meaning you are again on the wrong side to catch the people mover, and you cannot claim your bags and go back in to the secure side without a new flight ticket. So, you basically would have to take a bus back to the rail station at the end of your trip.

There are two options to deal with these dilemmas: 1) restore the old DFW AirTrain system that was replaced by the new people-mover. The AirTrain was on the non-secure side of the terminals, meaning that it could connect to a non-secure rail station. 2) provide shuttle bus connections from the new rail station to each terminal (like what you have now from the TRE). If you go with 1, you better find a whole lot of money. If you go with 2, it doesnt really matter where the new rail station is, you still have to take a shuttle bus anyway, and Gary Thomas' position is right on.

[saxman66]

There are two options to deal with these dilemmas: 1) restore the old DFW AirTrain system that was replaced by the new people-mover. The AirTrain was on the non-secure side of the terminals, meaning that it could connect to a non-secure rail station. 2) provide shuttle bus connections from the new rail station to each terminal (like what you have now from the TRE). If you go with 1, you better find a whole lot of money. If you go with 2, it doesnt really matter where the new rail station is, you still have to take a shuttle bus anyway, and Gary Thomas' position is right on.

Exactly! You're right on. DFW has so many shuttle buses already its not even funny. It takes a ridiculously long time to get from the terminals to the TRE. And the Terminal Link buses take ridiculously long just to get from terminal to terminal. The problem with restoring the Airtrans ROW is the tracks under the terminals are being removed slowly and being built on with expanded offices and TSA screening facilities. Some of the tracks that are there lead directly into a concrete wall! The only areas left are along International Parkway, which I was meant for the light rail anyway. I just don't want to ride a stupid shuttle bus that takes forever. I don't mind transferring to a Skylink/Airtran type people mover, but I don't want a bus.

I'm going to the Orange line meeting tonight in Irving. If they don't address this, I'll ask about it and state my opinion.

[NThomas]

I'm going to the Orange line meeting tonight in Irving. If they don't address this, I'll ask about it and state my opinion.

When & where is that?

[darkblood]

When & where is that?

Upcoming Meetings / Próximas Juntas

5/11/2009 DART Orange Line
Construction Update Public Meetings
Monday, May 11, 2009, 6 p.m. Open House,
6:30 p.m., Presentation
University of Dallas - Haggar University Center
(above food court)
1845 E. Northgate Drive Irving, Texas 75062
(MAPSCO 32-E)
Along DART Bus Route 306

5/14/2009 DART Orange Line
Construction Update Public Meetings
Thursday, May 14, 2009, 3 p.m. Open House,
3:30 p.m. Presentation
North Lake College Library - Room L-240
5001 N. MacArthur Blvd., Irving, Texas 75038
(MAPSCO 21A-V)
Along DART Bus Route 301


Source: http://www.dart.org/meetings/publicmeetings.asp

[palchik]

Exactly! You're right on. DFW has so many shuttle buses already its not even funny. It takes a ridiculously long time to get from the terminals to the TRE. And the Terminal Link buses take ridiculously long just to get from terminal to terminal. The problem with restoring the Airtrans ROW is the tracks under the terminals are being removed slowly and being built on with expanded offices and TSA screening facilities. Some of the tracks that are there lead directly into a concrete wall! The only areas left are along International Parkway, which I was meant for the light rail anyway. I just don't want to ride a stupid shuttle bus that takes forever. I don't mind transferring to a Skylink/Airtran type people mover, but I don't want a bus.

I'm going to the Orange line meeting tonight in Irving. If they don't address this, I'll ask about it and state my opinion.

So what do you suggest saxman? Do you want light rail to serve every single terminal? If not, do you propose building a second people mover on the non-secure side of the airport? I dont think that would ever fly (excuse the pun) because quite honestly the ridership levels wouldnt justify it. 70% of traffic at DFW never leaves the terminals. These are just people who are at the airport because it happens to be the AA hub and they are making a connection from one flight to another. Thats why the SkyLink was built on the secure side. It wasnt built for us locals, but rather to get all those transfering folks from one gate and one terminal to another as fast as possible so that they dont miss their connections. I agree that it takes too long to get to the TRE, but thats because you have to transfer at the south remote lot. I think a direct shuttle from the future rail station to each terminal would work just fine.

[saxman66]

So what do you suggest saxman? Do you want light rail to serve every single terminal? If not, do you propose building a second people mover on the non-secure side of the airport? I dont think that would ever fly (excuse the pun) because quite honestly the ridership levels wouldnt justify it. 70% of traffic at DFW never leaves the terminals. These are just people who are at the airport because it happens to be the AA hub and they are making a connection from one flight to another. Thats why the SkyLink was built on the secure side. It wasnt built for us locals, but rather to get all those transfering folks from one gate and one terminal to another as fast as possible so that they dont miss their connections. I agree that it takes too long to get to the TRE, but thats because you have to transfer at the south remote lot. I think a direct shuttle from the future rail station to each terminal would work just fine.

Well I would say stay with the original design with a station at Terminals A and B right on the northside. I'm sure AA would have check-in kiosks there at the station, and they may even offer checked bag service. From there you can enter a new security check point and get on the Skylink. But if you're not taking AA, you've got a problem. Maybe the other airlines will have check-in kiosks at this station too, but I really doubt they will want to rent out more counter space to check bags to take all the way to Terminal E from the new station. Otherwise if you want to check bags and you're not riding AA, you'll have to ride a bus.

The only way to not ride a bus is to 1. Build a non-secure side Skylink running down the middle with stations at the endpoints where A, B, C, and D meet and another near where C, D, and E meet. I can extensions of it to Centreport or if the north side hub is built in Grapevine, an extension to that. Or 2. The Orange Line be extended being extended to near where C, D, and E meet up, so you'd have two light rail stops.

I'm sure expanding the Skylink would be very expensive, so I'm all for having the Orange Line extend farther down. But I really am no expert at how much things would cost.

[palchik]

First of all, the stations only "come together" on the secure side. There are sky-bridges connecting A,B, and C, but nothing connecting D and E. Secondly, even if you somehow get check-in worked out, what happens when you land? Once you land and leave the secure side to get your luggage, there is no way to move between terminals. The only way this could work is something similar to the Park Lane station connection. If the Orange Line ran right down the middle of International Parkway (on an elevated structure), you could get by with 3 stations, each feeding the two terminals on either side of the station through their garages. But this would be incredibly expensive, and would drop people off at the furthest point possible of each terminal (since mid-point of the radius).

Again, whats wrong with buses? Are they never appropriate? I'm not saying they have to be the exact same buses in use today at DFW, but there are plenty of really nice, comfortable, appealing buses out there with modern design, hybrid technology, etc...

[aygriffith]

Ride any one of the types of buses that fly around DFW and look at people's faces... they hate waiting for them, they hate figuring out which one of these 20 different types of buses do i take, and they hate being at the mercy of bus drivers who drive the buses right to the edge of their capabilities. Those are just the three I could think of quickly.

The answer is to have multiple stops along international parkway and have some sort of elevated breezeway with moving sidewalks to connect to the terminals on the Non Secure side. In all reality they can connect to B, D and E and do it by connecting to the parking garage and continuing the moving walkway through D's garage and building one over the stubby garages in B and E. That satisfies you getting to all of the ticket counters for every airline at the airport. D = AA and International Carriers, B = AA and UA, E = DL, FL, CO and the other airlines with only a few gates.

Whether they do this with running the orange line directly down international parkway or they do it with Skylink size trains, I don't know. I do know if they could figure it out with Skylink size trains they could actualy reduce the amount of buses by running the line all the way down to the rental car facility. This should have been figured out from the get go but again people are left to the mercy of the buses. As much as a I dislike flying through ATL's HJ International it has direct terminal access to the MARTA and will soon have finished its skylink style access to the consolidated rental car facility. DFW has overcome most of the inconvenences of its separate terminals, why get lazy with figuring out this potential problem?

Another bonus for connecting the terminals with a skyline style setup down the middle of International Parkway to the CRCF is that it will allow for hotel/office connection to the development the airport is building next to the rental car facility.

[saxman66]

First of all, the stations only "come together" on the secure side. There are sky-bridges connecting A,B, and C, but nothing connecting D and E. Secondly, even if you somehow get check-in worked out, what happens when you land? Once you land and leave the secure side to get your luggage, there is no way to move between terminals. The only way this could work is something similar to the Park Lane station connection. If the Orange Line ran right down the middle of International Parkway (on an elevated structure), you could get by with 3 stations, each feeding the two terminals on either side of the station through their garages. But this would be incredibly expensive, and would drop people off at the furthest point possible of each terminal (since mid-point of the radius).

Again, whats wrong with buses? Are they never appropriate? I'm not saying they have to be the exact same buses in use today at DFW, but there are plenty of really nice, comfortable, appealing buses out there with modern design, hybrid technology, etc...

Thats exactly what I suggested. And I know the terminals aren't all connected by bridges. And people don't want to ride another bus to get to the airport. I know I sure don't. I want a station that drops me off at the airport, not somewhere way up north.

I just talked to a guy at tonights meetings and he said things are still up in the air. He said it would probably a detriment to DART ridership if the Orange Line didn't go into at least between terminals A and B. Lots of Irving companies would be really upset if it didn't get a direct connection. If you are dragging your luggage, you wouldn't want to make transfers either onto a bus. He also said something would be worked out with the airline all providing checked bag service at said station. I didn't really ask about possible extensions of the rail line south, but he did make it pretty clear that DFW was not really interested in expanding its Skylink north from its car shops and barn. That would just be too expensive for them at this point.

[mjblazin]

A bus is perfectly fine. The traveler is paying a few dollars and avoiding cab or parking fees. If we get can't do the calculation on that tradeoff, algebra skills in the ISDs are worse than I thought. Paying some bus drivers on a continuous circuit would be far cheaper than the tens of millions required for these stations.

The only problems arise when DART later starts looking to reduce expenses, forgets the huge expense avoided by the use of a few extra drivers, and starts hacking away at the service to save a few dollars. Travelers wait longer for the recirc bus and some decide to forego DART.

I've cited the Boston T several times as the best example. You walk out of the station and never wait more than 5 minutes for a bus. Is it the most efficient bus service? Probably not, but it's a smidgen in cost to the expenses a rail link from the T to the airport terminals would have incurred. The DFW situation is exactly the same.

[palchik]

The buses would be run by DFW, not DART, just as they are now.

[saxman66]

A bus is perfectly fine. The traveler is paying a few dollars and avoiding cab or parking fees. If we get can't do the calculation on that tradeoff, algebra skills in the ISDs are worse than I thought. Paying some bus drivers on a continuous circuit would be far cheaper than the tens of millions required for these stations.

The only problems arise when DART later starts looking to reduce expenses, forgets the huge expense avoided by the use of a few extra drivers, and starts hacking away at the service to save a few dollars. Travelers wait longer for the recirc bus and some decide to forego DART.

I've cited the Boston T several times as the best example. You walk out of the station and never wait more than 5 minutes for a bus. Is it the most efficient bus service? Probably not, but it's a smidgen in cost to the expenses a rail link from the T to the airport terminals would have incurred. The DFW situation is exactly the same.

Well it works for Boston because the airport is only about 3 miles from downtown and the Silver Line bus takes them directly to South Station, a huge transit hub. I've done the bus transfer from DFW to the TRE numerous times, and if I had to do it every week with luggage, I'd rather just drive. It just takes way too long. Even taking a bus to the north side would take forever, and the Orange Line would lose lots of potential riders, ie business flyers from Dallas or Irving. The Terminal Link service takes at least a good 20 minutes or more to get from say B to E.

I'm all for a station at terminals A and B. I do realize an extension farther south would be very expensive, but IMO you gotta do it right the first time.

[JCL]

So, the idea of a transit center north doesn't sit well with Irving, DART is saying it may lower ridership, most airport travelers are negative on the idea... so who started these discussions and what were their thought processes in doing so? I'm not hearing alot of people positive on the idea... if so, this whole exercise seems academic and not likely to get implemented... why didn't they just leave well enough alone and not stir the pot?

[palchik]

A north station is being discussed because it would be the best location to interface with other regional lines such as the Cotton Belt and a possible second DCTA line.

[mjblazin]

Though the Silver Line was another interesting option, using its own roads from South Station, I meant the buses that pick up/drop off at the Airport T station. That station is no closer to Logan terminals than north/south terminals are to DFW's.

[JCL]

A north station is being discussed because it would be the best location to interface with other regional lines such as the Cotton Belt and a possible second DCTA line.

So then the question is: which one has the greater benefit? Perceived reduced access to the airport in favor of better regional interfacing, or run multiple lines on down into the airport?

[mjblazin]

Another question is what's the expense of the incremental benefit. The overall project finances may cover up a real loser.

[NThomas]

I'm going to throw this out there: its a huge conspiracy. DFW is looking to develop the surrounding land right? (ex.: the new development by the car rental area, and the HUGE shopping center at the NWC of SH 183 & SH161) If all three line were to converge in between terminals A & B, the best that could be done it either the oringinal covered walkway from the SW2NE line to the DART Orange line (and add the Cotton Belt and possibly DCTA in the mix too). But if they were all to converge north of the terminals with a separate line running on a Bombardier Innovia, to the outside security terminals, DFW Airport could create a "SkyMall" like at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport or Pittsburgh International Airport. The proposed development at the car rental would look like nothing compared to the potential for a northern Transit hub with a central baggage check-in, hotel(s), restaurants, shops, and event space. This would make up for the new security after 9/11 and help to restore if not increase retail sales to pre-9/11 levels.

[incrediculous]

Well it's not much of a conspiracy if this forum figured it out. But it does sound like the airport has real estate development as a top priority, instead of serving the airline passengers of the region. This isn't very surprising. After all, the airport handed the windfall from the taxpayer's natural gas resources directly to American Airlines.

Does DFW actually report to anyone? What a self-serving political beast its become!

[NThomas]

Well it's not much of a conspiracy if this forum figured it out. But it does sound like the airport has real estate development as a top priority, instead of serving the airline passengers of the region. This isn't very surprising. After all, the airport handed the windfall from the taxpayer's natural gas resources directly to American Airlines.

Does DFW actually report to anyone? What a self-serving political beast its become!

What about sales tax? Where does that go?