Unrelated except as to location, but is the Baby's Does site available for development?
I see that included in all the NTCOG, Dallas County and City of Dallas trail master plans is a connector trail to run from the Katy Trail to the Trinity Strand Trail, threading via a bridge across Houston (under the Dallas North Tollway connector ramps to Stemmons) then under the DART rail lines and running through the area east of Infomart (with a trail head located on Oak Lawn), then underneath Stemmons to connect to the Trinity Strand.
Does anyone know what the current status of this project is?
Unrelated except as to location, but is the Baby's Does site available for development?
Crow holdings owns the goat hill/former baby does site.
Sheesh, why don't they just redo Hi-Line with less cross-suts and add some major sidewalks. It's already a divided road. The space under IH35 is tight, but they can do it when they do Pegasus. Helluva lot cheaper.
Also, COD owns 2 of 3 parcels that make the triangle between IH35, RR/Dart, and Oaklawn. They could take the trail under the RR over the creek.
Gaaaa, I'm playing urban planner again!
1400 Hi-Line has already partnered with the city to fund a trail extension along the freeway access road with wider sidewalks and improved infrastructure upgrades under 35 as a temporary fix until the large Katy Trail expansion around goat hill can be funded. I read the city docs and it's part of the reason I believe the Trinity Strand phase 1 has been delayed because the city decided to put it all together in one phase of construction. The city received some Regional Transportation Council funding and the 1400 HiLine developers contributed funds for the wider sidewalks, lights, way finding signage etc along the back side of their property to connect to the Katy and to the soon to be built Trinity Stand phase 1.Originally Posted by txdore
is there a map of this anywhere?
The city documents, which I will look up and provide a link when I can find them, did not include any graphics to show the trail following the south side of 35 to 1400 Hi-Line then under the freeway to Victory. Its kinda a quick project and I think its one of those design build projects where they award the project to a firm who designs the project and completes the construction based on a agreed upon set of design rules.
Found the document referencing the project. http://www.dallascityhall.com/commit...ems_011712.pdf
trailenhancements.jpgThe Edison/Hi-Line Project includes enhancements and upgrades to bicycle and pedestrian connections between the Dallas Design District and the Victory District. In 2006, NCTCOG funded pedestrian and bike improvements along Hi-Line Drive between the Old Meander (west of Oak Lawn Avenue) and Edison Street. This project will build on that prior investment. The proposed improvements will help transportation linkages by increasing access and safety to rail transit (DART Victory station) and City of Dallas trails (Katy Strand Trail), improve air quality, promote sustainable development, and include:
*Widening Sidewalks along Edison Street between IH 35E (Stemmons Freeway) and Hi-Line Drive
*Adding a new sidewalk along the southbound frontage road of IH 35E(Stemmons Freeway) from Edison Street to north of Hi-Line Drive. This sidewalk is proposed to be primarily with TxDOT right-of-way. The City's goal would be to maximize the width of the sidewalk as much as possible ideally having at least 7 feet clear of walking area.
*Evaluation of shared-use lane markings along Hi-Line Drive (City of Dallas Bike Route 210).
*Adding shade trees, landscaping, and pedestrian lighting along Hi-Line Drive under IH 35E (Stemmons Freeway) from the southbound frontage road to Houston Street.
*Adding a new crosswalk, ADA ramps, enhanced way-finding, and pedestrian warning for crossing Houston Street to the Katy Trail.
Can they make it any more expensive? How about they build it on a levitating platform using a Mr. Plutonium propulsion system. Maybe throw in a flux capacitor for good measure.
It will be 10 years before that is built. We could have had a nice 12 foot trail going under the tracks and under the freeway two years ago with a street crossing at Houston street. Build the bridge later.
Same thing you did at McCommas and Central. Yes, it's not ideal, but it gets you across the freeway. If they had waited for a pie-in-the-sky 2000 foot bridge spanning over Central, it would never get done. As it is the Mockingbird bridge is going to be while before it is ever built.
Last edited by Alex Rodriguez; 11 May 2012 at 08:24 AM.
This is the quickest news I could find about funding...http://www.trinitystrand.org/connectplan.php
50% of the schematic design and 75% of the hydrology studies are also completed. The estimated cost, including construction drawings, of the Trinity Strand Trail/Katy Trail Connection is $18M.
18 million dollars for maybe 2000 feet of connector. $9000 a linear foot, that is psychotic.
Typical 12 foot concrete trail can be laid for $60 a linear foot. Let's say $100 a linear foot for top notch construction. Heck, even a very nice metal 60 foot arched pedestrian bridge goes for $1500 a linear foot, or $90,000 and that is installed.
$18 million dollars should be more than enough to build the entire Trinity Strand trail. Heck, I need to take this to the powers that be in Flower Mound. We could build the remaining 55 miles of trail in the trail plan for $18 million dollars. We only do 8 foot trail out here at $40 a foot, you could build 55 miles of trail for $14 million and change, and the other $4 million could buy the rest of the ROW. Time to go write some grants! Good Lord.
Here is the little bit about the funding that I can find from the recent stories on the project...http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/2...ml/#more-30275
Now all they have to do is raise the money: It’s guesstimated to run around $18 million, which will come from private funds and city bond money.
There's probably three or four, may five, companies that bought up a whole lot of that land a few years back and they should be the primary source of funding for the World Class Signature of the trail connection.
Crow & Company once called their master plan The Trinity Meander, and I remember one of the see-how-great-it-could-be pedestrian and bike trail renderings included a deluxe set up kinda like what we've got now. I totally want the connection between the Katy Trail and the Trinity Strand to be as fantastic as the fly-thou implies, but the land owning development companies - especially the company that owns Goat Hill - are obligated to pay for public infrastructure glamorization like this.
These development companies will make tens or hundreds of millions of dollars redeveloping the Trinity River flood plane that Dallas citizens have paid tens, probably hundreds, of millions of dollars over the decades to keep dry and inhabitable.
Looks to me like they are elevating the entire trail starting along Houston streeet at the Victory Overlook. It will be raised along Houston street by the waterfall billboard at Goat Hill, go over Houston street, do that 360 business in the dead triangle between DART lines, Harry Hines, and Houston street, then under the DART lines, along the creek to Stemmons Freeway/Oak Lawn intersection and under all that, and then it pops out South of Stemmons on the old Trinity Meanders behind the Apartment complex by Hi Line Dr and Oak Lawn.
Looks like they have a new website to boot.
So first way to save a ton of money is to not elevate it along Houston street. Just widen the existing sidewalk, build a retain wall on the hillside and put in a guardrail along the street and get that portion to 12 feet wide. But what do I know, I don't have 18 Million.
I suspect that at least one reason for the circuitous route -- and thus much of the expense -- is ADA compliance. You've got some pretty significant elevation changes along that route, and ADA limits the slope to 1:12.
I'm not sure someone in a wheelchair could make the grade from Reverchon to the Katy Trail. Pretty steep. I know a guy who is training for the Olympic bobsled team and sells his own skateboards on the side....I think even he walks it up that long grade. Currently the only two sections built I know about....
The section on Hi-line from the Meddlesome Moth to the dead end across the old riverbed from the Anatole
And the section on Turtle Creek Blvd...although it looks to me with all the marking paint that they might be tearing this plaza up? I'm not familiar with that project, at all nor the mystery of the Reverchon Park construction across from the Stoneleigh that has closed portions of the park for what like 2 years now?
I recall when they built the entrance at Armstrong that the were able to get around supplying a ramp because Knox Street was just close enough that it qualified as handicapped access.
Serious question. If its plain and ugly, will anyone use the connector as it goes under Stemmons? People here are finnicky as hell when it comes to stuff like this. I feel like they have one shot at this.
Cause it's public property and there are laws at the federal and state level that require that public funds and or property be ADA compliant as a basic part of American civil rights. Those Americans who are disabled deserve the right that they too be able to access public property like parks and trails and also that public funds are spent in a way that also supports their basic accessibility requirements.Originally Posted by profbarium
You can find out more about the Americans with Disabilities Act here: http://www.ada.gov/
No, not everything public has to be ADA compliant because not everything CAN be built from scratch or retrofitted to be compliant. Since the act we have plenty of city sidewalks where the terrain is too steep to be compliant.
They want an improved trail over a relatively short distance from goat HILL to the old RIVER channel. That's a lot of elevation change. If people want to raise and donate money, great! But I question using public funds.
I'm not disabled, but I've hunted for HC spots and pushed loved ones up and down compliant and non-compliant walks, and even a few steps. I have training and practical experience with ADA and FHA accessibility standards et al. Including safe harbors, 5%, 8.33% and 2% cross slopes and the like. It's an admirable goal. And when we can, we should make every reasonable accommodation possible. But $9,000(?) a foot or anything in that order of magnitude is not reasonable.
The current sidewalk along Houston street must not be ADA compliant now, if that is the issue. Again, when you have so much demand for trails, there are cities in the metroplex that could build out their entire trail system with $18 million, and we are talking about that amount of money for a single connector.
I understand there are personal donations and benefactors and large companies involved in this deal, so its not a matter of saying they can't do it or shouldn't be legally allowed to do it. It's more a matter of looking at it objectively and saying "What the hell? Must be nice to be able to piss away $18 million dollars on a few thousand feet of trail." And must be nice to have some really top notch grant writers over at the City of Dallas.
Well just to clear the air since you guys are so concerned about how that fictional 18million would be spent so I will repeat myself. The city is already pursuing a regular ground trail connection between the Trinity Strand trail and the Katy Trail along Hi-Line to Victory Avenue. It wont be as pretty but I believe the funding is already in motion for that connection thanks to some developers nearby that donated money to ensure that they could claim their development would be connected to the Katy Trail.
As for the 18 million I think you guys might also want to put in perspective this isn't just a trail project its also a park project with a large portion of the 18 million dollar budget to be used to improve the park land that this trail will be running through. Look at the layout they are planning to build a whole other park around this trail connection at the corner of Oak Lawn and Stemmons Freeway. I mean we are not talking about just landscaping a little old industrial rail right of way to lay in a little bit of concrete we are talking about the city turning underutilized land into a city park connected to two major trail routes.
I have no complaint about it. I'd rather it be built in the best way. Do it right now instead of wondering why the connection isn't used much in 5 years.
I know there's complications from the "corkscrews/spirals" and changes in elevations... but it's a shame that something like this can't be put in where it will obviously get much more exposure and use.
I know the first thing I want to do while I'm half-clothed and jogging is to go underneath a freeway overpass...
I like the parks elements tho.
Last edited by art_suckz; 24 May 2012 at 03:33 PM.
The unholy offspring of lightning and Death itself.
I suppose it's a de facto memorial of Turtle Creek, so it's not exactly nowheresville. Still some version of this beast could link the convention center to the Hyatt and the river. Much more interesting than the old "moving sidewalk" spiel. I'm for more than one of these sprinkled around for hikers, bikers and walkers who eventually will need egress to the park eventually to occupy the river. I hate the "you can't get there from here" aspect of Dallas.
You must not read the news. That process is exactly how you get approvals from the august members of the IOC except the stadiums are unnecessary. They do it the old fashion way.Originally Posted by sterling
I was looking at this map again (http://www.trinitystrand.org/images/...tionMap_LG.jpg) and just noticed "Future Gateway Park" at the top of the frame. Who owns that land? The Goat Hill Connector plan includes a route to access the Future Gateway Park, and it all makes me wonder about Harwood International. The Gateway Park seems like it's totally positioned as an amenity/extension of Harwood District backing up the Katy Trailhead connection. The Harwood map doesn't indicate anything about the future gateway park, though....
To forget ourselves and pretend all's well
^Nobody owns that land, it's reclaimed floodplain. I imagine the State of Texas owns it. According to DCAD the property is unassigned. The old Turtle Creek Channel ran through there before it was channelized and moved.
^They cleared out the space behind KERA for that concept. That's as far as it got.
In regards to other bars, I'm surprised something has not gone in north of Knox. Beer gardens are an easy concept to launch. Whether or not it would appeal to a Highland Park crowd vs an Uptown set would be difficult to gauge.
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