Downtown Dwelling Count

[Tucy]

.
Added the Residences at Wycliff apartment project that was announced earlier today (http://www.dallasnews.com/business/c...ion=reregister):

Inside CBD (traditional definition, inside the loop):

400 No. Ervay: 78 units -- Open
Museum Tower: 116 units -- Under construction - to be completed late 2012
Lone Star Gas Lofts: 230 units -- Under construction ?
Mercantile Continental: 203 units -- Under construction ?
Farmers Market Square: 110 units -- ???
211 No. Ervay: 128 units -- ???
Elm Place: 509 units -- Proposed -- no timeline
2400 San Jacinto (The Spire, Phase 1): 36 units -- Proposed -- no timeline
2500 San Jacinto (The Spire, Phase 2): 301 units -- Proposed -- no timeline
Grand Richi: unknown number -- proposed in concept -- no timeline
Dallas Grand/Statler Hilton: unknown number -- proposed as possible concept -- no timeline

TOTAL 1,711 known units + whatever Grand Richi and Dallas Grand add



Outside CBD (expanded Downtown 360 definition):

JLB Ross: 372 units
1400 Hi Line: 314 units
Gables Fairmont: 329 units
3000/3001 Carlisle (16 story tower): 300 units
Broadstone Market Center (Alliance Residential in Design District): 303 units
Cityville at Cityplace: 356 units
West Village/Cityplace, JLB tract 6c: 294 units
West Village/Cityplace, 20+ story tower, tract 7A: 385 units
West Village/Cityplace, CWS Partners & JLB Partners, 321 units
Zang Triangle: 260 units
Sylvan Thirty: 200 units
Victory Avenue : 378 units
Residences at Wycliff: 306 units

TOTAL 4,118 known units

Could we add the status of each of these projects? That would be a very useful additional piece of informatio for all of us to keep track of. I've taken a stab at the status of the CBD projects.

[cowboyeagle05]

Well why don't we just use the Downtown 360 Map of the Downtown Area. Note it does leave out growth areas like Oak Cliff and the recent booming Medical District but those are farther out districts of their own and while we will be connecting them to the Downtown Area I don't think they need to be grouped in with the Downtown definition. Some of the people I know don't really consider Oak Cliff to be Downtown they consider it to be like a Lakewood, Lake Highlands or a Preston Hollow. Course to my parents who stay in the suburbs all the time they practically consider anything past 635 in the loop as Downtown in many cases.



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[profbarium]

Well why don't we just use the Downtown 360 Map of the Downtown Area.

I like that idea. Trouble is, the one I found on Downtown 360's website cuts off at the edges (cf. Plan Framework). Does anyone know where to find a better one? Is that the best one there is?

[cowboyeagle05]

I like that idea. Trouble is, the one I found on Downtown 360's website cuts off at the edges (cf. Plan Framework). Does anyone know where to find a better one? Is that the best one there is?

We just need to do a Google Map where we define the boundaries. You can tell where most of the areas stop based on the map I posted above. The only thing that really gets cut off is the northern edge of Uptown which they define as the West Village.

[profbarium]

We just need to do a Google Map where we define the boundaries. You can tell where most of the areas stop based on the map I posted above. The only thing that really gets cut off is the northern edge of Uptown which they define as the West Village.

Yeah, I like that idea. Also, don't ask me how I missed the map you embedded into your post. Talk about not paying attention! (Seriously, an admin might as well delete my prior post.)

In any case, that seems like a workable/accessible defintion of "downtown." I'm with you that Oak Cliff doesn't really "count."

[Rangers100]

Anyone have any thoughts on doing this in a wiki format? Anyone know how to best set up a wiki page that we can all edit?

Or is there a better format for harnessing the wisdom of the crowd for this project?

[tamtagon]

Anyone have any thoughts on doing this in a wiki format? Anyone know how to best set up a wiki page that we can all edit?

CTroyMathis was going to look into what the vbulletin software might provide, but it doesn't seem too promising.... I'm not too sure. I don't know squat about setting up a wiki page or anything similar. This is a great project.

With the 360 Downtown Map, I wonder if 'Uptown' and 'Baylor' could be split into sub groups just like inside the loop downtown has distinct areas.

[TheDoubletap]

I'm using pbworks now on another collaborative project. I set up a site here: http://dallasapartmentlist.pbworks.com/ though if you hate the name, it's free to set up another. It's an online wiki that can also host a small amount of data (word files, a few presentations). I made it open so anyone can edit it, and I'm happy to add anyone to the admin rights in case there's any disputes.

You do have to create a free account with pbworks to edit it, but anyone can see and read it without logging in.

[CTroyMathis]

This was a test go of that other list, meant as an interim measure while working on a user-editable page here on the forum. . .: http://www.daytum.com/ctroymathis

Oh yeah, watch out, it's a bit bright.

[Rangers100]

I'm using pbworks now on another collaborative project. I set up a site here: http://dallasapartmentlist.pbworks.com/ though if you hate the name, it's free to set up another. It's an online wiki that can also host a small amount of data (word files, a few presentations). I made it open so anyone can edit it, and I'm happy to add anyone to the admin rights in case there's any disputes.

You do have to create a free account with pbworks to edit it, but anyone can see and read it without logging in.

Cool. Right now it requires administrator approval to edit the page though.

[TheDoubletap]

Cool. Right now it requires administrator approval to edit the page though.

I figured it out. Once you have an account and try to edit, it asks for permission to join the workgroup. I just added you as a admin. If you click on users, you'll see a tab called "Request Access". It'll have a number next to it if anyone is trying to join. I guess just add everyone as an admin, that way anyone can approve anyone to join.

[Rangers100]

This was a test go of that other list, meant as an interim measure while working on a user-editable page here on the forum. . .: http://www.daytum.com/ctroymathis

Oh yeah, watch out, it's a bit bright.

Cool.

I added your planned "center city" units list to get that table started in our wiki page.

[Rangers100]

If you don't want to sign up in order to edit the wiki page, but you have info on a building's unit #, occupancy rate, etc., feel free to just reply to this thread and someone can edit the page accordingly.

We have a good list of planned projects from the other thread, but what we really need is info on the existing buildings.

[cowboyeagle05]

If you don't want to sign up in order to edit the wiki page, but you have info on a building's unit #, occupancy rate, etc., feel free to just reply to this thread and someone can edit the page accordingly.

We have a good list of planned projects from the other thread, but what we really need is info on the existing buildings.

Here you go Downtown Dallas Inc keeps a list of all residential buildings downtown on their website. Here is a report from them that lists the number of units in all residential buildings and what type of residential buildings they are at the time of the report which was 2008 but some of the older buildings that you are looking for haven't changed so the data is still useful. http://www.downtowndallas.org/docume...singReport.pdf

It was found on this page: http://www.downtowndallas.org/ForRes...ors/index.aspx

[Rangers100]

Here you go Downtown Dallas Inc keeps a list of all residential buildings downtown on their website. Here is a report from them that lists the number of units in all residential buildings and what type of residential buildings they are at the time of the report which was 2008 but some of the older buildings that you are looking for haven't changed so the data is still useful. http://www.downtowndallas.org/docume...singReport.pdf

It was found on this page: http://www.downtowndallas.org/ForRes...ors/index.aspx

Awesome. Thanks.

[tamtagon]

thread split from DTD Population thread

How about a new thread with all the downtown apartment buildings, both open and planned?

Scroll back to post #55. that post kicked off the discussion of planned additional units

didn't go back that far, and the fouta's post #22 really started the thread

[tamtagon]

Downtown Dallas apartment list...

I called the thread "Dwelling" to include condos, too.

[Rangers100]

thread split from DTD Population thread





didn't go back that far, and the fouta's post #22 really started the thread

Thanks. Could you also add the link to the wiki page to the first post or somewhere people can easily find it?

[Rangers100]

Updated the wiki page.

• Added the "existing" buildings for downtown (inside the loop only) from the 9/1/08 DDI survey that cowboyeagle posted above
• Does anyone know of the current occupancy rates for these?
• Which buildings have come online (or gone offline) since 9/1/08?
• Any other details missing or needing to be corrected (e.g. property name changes)?

[Rangers100]

Does anyone have a good guess at the current occupancy rates of these buildings?

[sterling]

This is terrific.

[Mena]

We're in one of the Mosaic's 3BR/2.5BA units (kids' ages 3 and 2). They may exist but I don't know of any other true 3BR units (non-penthouse) in any downtown buildings.

Definitely agree on the need for culture change.

What I find interesting (and disappointing) are the people I've met in DFW who have moved here from previous urban living arrangements in real cities (NYC, Chicago, etc.) and very much get the benefits and enjoyments of urban living... yet who still choose not to live downtown because they've been told by numerous people in DFW that it's not an option. I have encountered quite a few cases of people to whom I don't have to explain the benefits of high-rise living, the extreme overratedness of yards, the value of daily interactions with strangers, etc... having been persuaded by locals who generally reject all of this that one can't live in downtown Dallas. Really frustrating.

Your children are still young. When they get older you'll find yourself having to take them to their piano lessons or art or if they both play ball, you very well could be taking them to separate locations. Maybe your wife would be with one and you the other. You then have to work in dinner at some point and go over homework or essays, etc. All of your daily interactions will be your co-workers and parents of the other players. It is quite chaotic. You might want to be around people 24/7, there are many people who want to have those limited precious moments as a family in their quiet home. Private time with your family becomes sacred. Weeknights can be crazy.



Sorry.this might be off topic, but I felt it was necessary.

We have condos in our building that have 2 large bedrooms and I can't remember if the den had a door or not. It is pretty large but no window, not really ideal but can work as a 3rd bedroom. A family snatched one for $199,000. It sat on the market for quite awhile ad went the market tanked, the asking price dropped quite a bit. Mainly due to the HOA fees and share of the common power bill. I'm not sure if we have any available at the moment. I do know of one that is being leased. So it might be available in the future. We looked at one and it is huge with two larger bedrooms that are situated at opposite of each side of the condo. Great windows and each is en suite. Not much of a view on the lower floors, as it sits overlooking Akard and your view is the white wall of the building across the street.

[Rangers100]

I'm very aware of what is involved with raising kids in cities as I know many people who have done it. You may be right that it can't be done in Dallas. If not I will move to another city. Suburban isolationism isn't an option for me.

[Mena]

I'm very aware of what is involved with raising kids in cities as I know many people who have done it. You may be right that it can't be done in Dallas. If not I will move to another city. Suburban isolationism isn't an option for me.

I never said it can't be done. I said this:

You might want to be around people 24/7, there are many people who want to have those limited precious moments as a family in their quiet home.

[Rangers100]

You might want to be around people 24/7, there are many people who want to have those limited precious moments as a family in their quiet home.

Well, you were suggesting that at the least it will be very, very difficult to raise teenagers in downtown Dallas (i.e. more so than it is to raise teenagers in the burbs). I know that certainly isn't true in many other urban areas, so if it proves to be true in Dallas I will move.

And again, I realize some people want to isolate into sprawl for their "limited precious moments." I find that a terrible and sad way to live, for many reasons. I realize you don't.

[sterling]

Children are raised reflective of their parents. I think raising them urban, unafraid of differences and perceived imperfections, and far from the usual bland suburban "safeguards" is admirable. I was raised so sheltered it's not even funny, by very well meaning parents. The diversity of people is every bit as valuable and rewarding for children as attempts to keep them cloistered in a faux-tudor bubble. "Special times" happen because parents share their life experience with children. It doesn't really matter if there's a Baskin-Robbins close by or not.

Living an urban life while bemoaning nostalgia in the suburbs sends more mixed messages than a pee-stained sidewalk outside your front door. One part of things you can control. The other you can't. The rest is just flailing about, demonstrating how to drown in panic instead of just sensibly holding your head above the water.

[Mena]

Well, you were suggesting that at the least it will be very, very difficult to raise teenagers in downtown Dallas (i.e. more so than it is to raise teenagers in the burbs). I know that certainly isn't true in many other urban areas, so if it proves to be true in Dallas I will move.

And again, I realize some people want to isolate into sprawl for their "limited precious moments." I find that a terrible and sad way to live, for many reasons. I realize you don't.

No I was not suggesting that. I simply said they might not want to be around people 24/7 and require their own space. Read my post again. Where did I state it would be difficult to raise children downtown? You won't find it in there and it is a misinterpretation on your part. Not sure why you're reading more into to what I write. ? I get it. You think everyone should live in an urban environment. I'm saying it comes down to choice. Seems you and I have a recurring cycle in conversation and it revolves around your strong opinion on what you deem to be appropriate (insert whatever issue we are discussing)while I point out there are many ways to live and I can only interpret when you constantly chide people for choosing how and where they want to live their lives, that it can point to an inability to seek beyond one's own desire with complete disregard to someone else's lifestyle choice. I live downtown, remember? It obviously works for me.

Over and out.

[tamtagon]

No I was not suggesting that. I simply said they might not want to be around people 24/7 and require their own space. Read my post again. Where did I state it would be difficult to raise children downtown? You won't find it in there and it is a misinterpretation on your part. Not sure why you're reading more into to what I write. ? I get it. You think everyone should live in an urban environment. I'm saying it comes down to choice. Seems you and I have a recurring cycle in conversation and it revolves around your strong opinion on what you deem to be appropriate (insert whatever issue we are discussing)while I point out there are many ways to live and I can only interpret when you constantly chide people for choosing how and where they want to live their lives, that it can point to an inability to seek beyond one's own desire with complete disregard to someone else's lifestyle choice. I live downtown, remember? It obviously works for me.

Over and out.

Part of it, Mena, is that Ranger sees this as a debate, presumably with a winner and a loser.

[Mena]

Part of it, Mena, is that Ranger sees this as a debate, presumably with a winner and a loser.

Well that explains it. I save that stuff for political threads.

[Rangers100]

Part of it, Mena, is that Ranger sees this as a debate, presumably with a winner and a loser.

Ha. I've been the one trying to get out of this nonsensical back-and-forth.

Mena's told me 20 times now that suburbs are just another place to live, no morally different than urbanism, etc. I think she wants me to agree with that, but I'm obviously not going to. I agree with the urbanists, and she largely rejects their beliefs.

Anyhoo, I'm not the one continuing this discussion. It just keeps coming up with her responding to my posts on other stuff (such as downtown dwelling counts).

[tamtagon]

Ha. I've been the one trying to get out of this nonsensical back-and-forth....Anyhoo, I'm not the one continuing this discussion. It just keeps coming up with her responding to my posts on other stuff (such as downtown dwelling counts).

The topic is why the Internet has discussion forums like this, what's hard to swallow is that you're the one trying to get out of it. :^)

[Mena]

Ha. I've been the one trying to get out of this nonsensical back-and-forth.

Mena's told me 20 times now that suburbs are just another place to live, no morally different than urbanism, etc. I think she wants me to agree with that, but I'm obviously not going to. I agree with the urbanists, and she largely rejects their beliefs.

Anyhoo, I'm not the one continuing this discussion. It just keeps coming up with her responding to my posts on other stuff (such as downtown dwelling counts).

What a load of cr@p.

[tamtagon]

Are you guys still going to meet for drinks one night?

[Mena]

Are you guys still going to meet for drinks one night?

snort!

[Rangers100]

The topic is why the Internet has discussion forums like this, what's hard to swallow is that you're the one trying to get out of it. :^)

Just speaking to your comment about "winners and losers."

She thinks there are good reasons for living in suburbs. I don't. I get the disagreement. I'm OK with that.

[Rangers100]

Are you guys still going to meet for drinks one night?

Works for me.

[Rangers100]

Updated the wiki page with some recently overheard occupancy rate numbers.

[LH_Newbie]

What a load of cr@p.

Exactly why I stopped posting on this thread. R100 has his perspective and refuses to accept that other people have different perspectives - or if they do, they're simply wrong.

I think you and I have many of the same points. I think urban living is very neat - though it's not for everyone. I work with a guy that lives in the Metropolitan. I've been through the building before, and really like the floorplans and locations. It's not in the cards for me at this point in life. I personally like my single family home in Lake Highlands. I'm a 10 minute walk from light rail and hopefully in the next year or so, from some sort of buildings @ the Lake Highlands Town Center property. We're close to the amenities of the Arts district yet have more privacy and space (yes, R100 will say I just want to be an isolationist and I'm evil) because guess what? My wife, my child and I spend a good portion of our time in our home... so I'd like a little extra space (and not sharing walls so our time in the house is a bit quieter). It's not right or wrong, it's simply what we chose for us at this point in our life.

Brian

[Rangers100]

Exactly why I stopped posting on this thread. R100 has his perspective and refuses to accept that other people have different perspectives

I just got through saying I get that Mena likes suburbs. And I'm OK with that. I "accept" it.

Of course suburbs suck. I'm not going to pretend they don't. But do I accept the fact you and Mena and many others like them? Of course.

It sounds to me like y'all are the ones who can't accept that some people think suburbs suck.

[codytravers]

Right, just like you can't accept that some people think downtown sucks (which IMO it does).

[tamtagon]

It sounds to me like y'all are the ones who can't accept that some people think suburbs suck.

I like both the urban and suburban. My favorite combination is urban and rural.

So, like, there's a handful of threads across which a handful of topic discussions are spread; I'll try to put similar posts together.

[sterling]

If ANYONE ELSE OUT THERE is thinking of moving to Dallas, or really anywhere in Texas, let's get some things straight (my opinion only). Texas cities aren't like other big cities listed in the "top 10" this or that list in America. All of these suburbs being inadequately described (for and against), ARE mostly what Texas cities are. If that's what you want, Texas has all types and price ranges of them. If you don't have a 7-11 within 5 minutes of your home, believe me it's planned for. The endless miles of curving streetscapes that lead from nowhere to nowhere look the exactly the same from Amarillo to Corpus Christi. Don't me misled. You can get a gate on your community or just use the one in your mind. Too many options to describe in this small space.

And just between you and me, every downtown in Texas suffered or suffers from the same malaise that Dallas did and does. Wholesale abandonment of its urban area for something "newer, better, faster and shinier" further and further out, as per the next generation. Bulldozing with a vengeance became fashionable. After a lifetime or two of that, SOME folks start to remember that old crumbling dity center, legendarily filled with whores, drugs and the other impolite reasons not to walk there on Sundays... and decide they want to live there. Imagine. Of all the nerve. They finally got hot and cold running water, but that's about it. They want better living conditions, but that means someone else in the suburbs has to lose their wings and move downtown first. Oh the humanity!

So, ya'll come! We got your suburbs, your trailer parks, lots and lots of acres and acrees of garden apartment complexes, and more shopping than you can ruin your credit at. Downtown, we got your Adolphus, museums and other real live architecture, cool guys in sunglasses, and dogs that pee on the sidewalk right in front of you. We even got a train so you can see both places for yourself! If you bring your own picnic and lawn chairs, you can make a fun day out of it for the whole family.

[Rangers100]

Do we have anyone here that lives in the Camden Farmers Market complex? Any idea what the occupancy rate is currently?

More qualitatively, what is that complex like? Any good?

[rantanamo]

Used to live there. It was fine. Nothing special, not bad. Was very walkable and was nice to go to the Farmers Market to get produce, but had to go elsewhere for other groceries. The finish out was just what you expect from new garden apartments in the area. I'm really surprised development around it hasn't gone into hyperspace as it was very convenient and kind of its own island for many. Would have thought larger, more urban development would have surrounded it rather than townhomes.

[Rangers100]

Used to live there. It was fine. Nothing special, not bad. Was very walkable and was nice to go to the Farmers Market to get produce, but had to go elsewhere for other groceries. The finish out was just what you expect from new garden apartments in the area. I'm really surprised development around it hasn't gone into hyperspace as it was very convenient and kind of its own island for many. Would have thought larger, more urban development would have surrounded it rather than townhomes.

Interesting. Thanks.

Where did you typically walk to when you went walking in the area?

I think the problem as far as its growth has gone is that it's too detached from the rest of downtown, surrounded by dead blocks to the west and a disaster of an elevated highway to the west.

[tamtagon]

Is anyone updating the wiki page anymore?

[rantanamo]

Interesting. Thanks.

Where did you typically walk to when you went walking in the area?

I think the problem as far as its growth has gone is that it's too detached from the rest of downtown, surrounded by dead blocks to the west and a disaster of an elevated highway to the west.

Sorry I never answered this. Mostly to the Farmers Market and all over Deep Ellum. Never really got to the heart of downtown much unless I was going to ride the rail or bus that day. I actually didn't think the highway was that big of a deal. The much bigger deal was how Canton and Good-Lattimer were wide and split running underneath it.

[Tucy]

I guess the wiki for downtown residential projects is not being kept up to date?

Here are the CBD "planned" and "under construction" units from the wiki page with my updates in bold. Does anyone have any additional updates, additions, cancellations, status reports?

Building Name Units Status

Museum Tower 116 Under construction, but occupancy is very speculative ;-)

Elm Place 509 Speculative

2500 San Jacinto 301 Very speculative

Lone Star Gas Lofts 230 Open

Mercantile Continental 203 Under construction

211 North Ervay 0 Now slated to be a hotel?

Farmers Market Square 108 Under construction/development

Total Units: 1467. Total units excluding speculatives: 657.

Existing CBD units according to the Wiki: 3,148. Total existing and under construction: 3,805

[Tucy]

In another thread Tamtagon mentions a bunch of downtown residential projects. Can anyone provide additions and updates to the following status list for downtown residential projects?

Here are the CBD "planned" and "under construction" units from the wiki page with my updates in bold. Does anyone have any additional updates, additions, cancellations, status reports?

Building Name Units Status

Museum Tower 116 Under construction, but occupancy is very speculative ;-)

Elm Place 509 Speculative

2500 San Jacinto 301 Very speculative

Lone Star Gas Lofts 230 Open

Mercantile Continental 203 Under construction

211 North Ervay 0 Now slated to be a hotel?

Farmers Market Square 108 Under construction/development

Old High School ?? At last report (April, 2012), "far from a done deal"

Total Units: 1467. Total units excluding speculatives: 657.

Existing CBD units according to the Wiki: 3,148. Total existing and under construction: 3,805

[lakewoodhobo]

I can help format the list later, but we need to add:

-Crozier Tech (510 units)
-Patriot Tower (?? units)
-Fairfield West End (?? units)
-Corrigan Tower & Tower Petroleum (?? units)
-500 S. Ervay (250 units)

Any others? There will probably be an announcement of new apartments at the Farmers Market in the coming weeks/months.