DART ridership trends

[Trae]

Trae, you're funny, and I laugh at you because you go around these message boards (DFWUF, HAIF, Skyscraper City, etc.) gathering bits and pieces of information and then you try to regurgitate on one site what you think you've learned from another. Many times you are wrong and/or misinformed. This topic is certainly NO different. With every comment you post, your ignorance is more prominently displayed IMHO.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

The trains can run at 65 mph: http://www.kinkisharyo.co.jp/eng/e_p.../sh/e_dart.htm

As the DART system evolves, some lower volume stations could be modified to allow "express trains" that bypass that station. Eventually, all the stations would be rebuilt to allow express trains and there would even be dedicated lines for the express trains. At that point it would be up to DART as to which stations would be considered express stops based on volume and even day or time.

For example, the end goal for the red line would be to get riders from McKinney to DTD in less time (and maybe cost) than driving a personal vehicle. That will not be a difficult task as the highways become more congested with continued population and density growth in the 75 corridor.

Also, the trains themselves would continue to evolve to run faster and use less energy. While this first generation of LRT in DFW is not the best system compared to other metros, it is laying the cultural foundation for passenger rail in DFW for the next generation.

Heavy rail trains accelerate faster and higher sustained speeds. Atlanta, San Fran, and DC trains all go 80 MPH. If there are express trains on DART in the future, then the system will work better. Seems like DART's biggest problems is customer satisfaction though. Work that up before anything else.

[Mballar]

DARTs problems are safety, cleanliness, RELIABILITY, capacity (Red/Blue), pedestrian accessibility. And bigger yet, development along their LR lines, to increase their customer base AND their sales tax base.

AND

Again, I ride the Green Line 5 days a week. I have eyes. DART doesn't have problems with reliability? I guess I dreamed the entire month of February.You think DARTs pedestrian access leaves nothing to be desired? Really? The Red Line service cutbacks last year didn't have an impact? Those trains were full going South before they got to Bush Turnpike. You think DART has done a bang up job helping to bring development to the rail stops?

1. I still don't get your safety, cleanliness complaint. . . and certainly not on the Green Line. That's the newest, cleanest line in the system, from what I've seen.

2. How do you know DART isn't working with municipalities and adjacent property owners to increase pedestrian accessibility? In instances where they can't reach agreements on ingress/egress, what would you suggest DART do?

3. I'm assuming your reliability complaint boils down to the few service interruptions DART Rail experienced during the snow storms in February. . . I just don't see that as something to get pissed about. The entire country experienced the worst snow storm in 50 years. It was an extreme weather event, and I know people who couldn't even get their cars out of the driveway, much less drive on the roads. Holding DART to a higher standard, and criticizing DART for a few hours of service interruptions is unreasonable IMHO.

4. As for the service cutbacks affecting Red/Blue Line ridership. . .Neither one of us knows if that caused ridership to go down. Regardless, let us not forget why the service cutbacks came about. . .lack of money from lower tax receipts (the results of a deep recession).

5. As for Development around rail stops, I think your criticism is misplaced. I'd like to see more TOD myself, but that's a developer's issue. DART Rail can be, and has been, a catalyst for development. But the agency can't wave a magic wand and make TOD pop up around it's stations. As I understand it, there are a number of TOD projects planned around stations throughout the system (but on hold due to the recession). When those property owners/developers secure funding for their projects, I'm sure we'll see these projects become reality. Until then, criticizing DART is unreasonable.

[electricron]

3. I'm assuming your reliability complaint boils down to the few service interruptions DART Rail experienced during the snow storms in February. . . I just don't see that as something to get pissed about. The entire country experienced the worst snow storm in 50 years. It was an extreme weather event, and I know people who couldn't even get their cars out of the driveway, much less drive on the roads. Holding DART to a higher standard, and criticizing DART for a few hours of service interruptions is unreasonable IMHO.

I generally agreed to your other points. But this one still makes me angry because DART did NOT follow their winter weather preparation procedures the night before. They did not run empty trains all night attempting to keep the power lines and switches cleared of ice. We'll never know if that would have work or not because DART didn't run the trains.
Therefore, while we shouldn't blame them for the winter weather causing a disruption in service, we should be able to blame them for not following their own winter weather procedures. Some manager ignoring the weather forecasts and cheap thermometers made the wrong call, and we the passengers were left on our own on frozen platforms without accurate estimates when the trains would start rolling again. That was compounded by the DART spokesperson proclaiming on TV and radio that the trains will be running 20 minutes late - when they were running hours late or not at all. Therefore we should be able to blame them for inaccurate news releases too.
Both errors or mistakes could have been avoided simply by communicating amongst themselves, makes one wonder who was running the show last February, DART or mother nature? We pay enough in fares and taxes to expect the best professional services from DART, that day we got amateur services.

[TexasVines]

Trae, you're funny, and I laugh at you because you go around these message boards (DFWUF, HAIF, Skyscraper City, etc.) gathering bits and pieces of information and then you try to regurgitate on one site what you think you've learned from another. Many times you are wrong and/or misinformed. This topic is certainly NO different. With every comment you post, your ignorance is more prominently displayed IMHO.

I enjoy his comments on many message boards.....at least he brings ideas and tries to learn about things

Again, I ride the Green Line 5 days a week. I have eyes. DART doesn't have problems with reliability? I guess I dreamed the entire month of February. You think DARTs pedestrian access leaves nothing to be desired? Really? The Red Line service cutbacks last year didn't have an impact? Those trains were full going South before they got to Bush Turnpike. You think DART has done a bang up job helping to bring development to the rail stops?

My agenda is to see DART improve. They leave a lot to be desired, and pat themselves on the back when things go horribly wrong. The ridership numbers are the proof in the pudding. Gas is $4 a gallon and no one wants to ride DART. And the excuse is Dallas is a car-centric city? Old Frieght Corridors? So how does car-centricity explain that DART's ridership was higher 5 years ago? And higher than that 10 years ago. Were we less car-centric back then? The Red Line is in the same old freight corridor as it was 10 years ago. How do the numbers go down when gas is 3 times more expensive?

the reality of declining ridership is all over this forum......only the vast majority of people found on forums like this will never see that reality

the reality is that downtown dallas is no longer a center of job growth

the reality is the vast majority of people will be closer to their job in the metromess living anywhere but downtown dallas

the reality is that the city of dallas is no longer the center of residential growth in the metromess

the reality is that a lot of people do not want to live in dallas proper because of horrible schools and horrible governance

the reality is you can still come to dallas for the few things dallas does offer while living in someplace besides dallas......and if the dallas based public transport makes the charge too high for that....the reality is you can drive a car

the reality is that expensive high rise condos are not affordable for most people and do not fit the lifestyle of many more

the reality is that people who are unemployable because of poor education, poor work habits, and poor personal choices suddenly don't become employable because a train or light rail or a bus or even a personal limo is now available for them to use

without decent schools you can build all the public transit you wish and people will still not want to live in that area

without decent government that is not filled with "my area" type thinkers with big public project dreams people will not want to live in an area

and when new employers can move to areas where employees live instead of being trapped in downtown dallas......IF downtown dallas would even work for their needs.....those new employers would just assume not locate in dallas proper as well.......paying more for less is not attractive to individuals or corporations

the vast majority of job growth drivers in dallas have happened in areas with little service by public transport and that will probably continue in the future

[AeroD]

TexasVines,

You told Brandt on the phone, and Brandt told me. Yes, yes?

[mjblazin]

I never thought using that Lebowski quote that way, but in retrospect, it's surprising how often it could be employed in most of what passes for debate on any subject in 2011.

[skys the limit]

I enjoy his comments on many message boards.....at least he brings ideas and tries to learn about things




the reality of declining ridership is all over this forum......only the vast majority of people found on forums like this will never see that reality

the reality is that downtown dallas is no longer a center of job growth

the reality is the vast majority of people will be closer to their job in the metromess living anywhere but downtown dallas

the reality is that the city of dallas is no longer the center of residential growth in the metromess

the reality is that a lot of people do not want to live in dallas proper because of horrible schools and horrible governance

the reality is you can still come to dallas for the few things dallas does offer while living in someplace besides dallas......and if the dallas based public transport makes the charge too high for that....the reality is you can drive a car

the reality is that expensive high rise condos are not affordable for most people and do not fit the lifestyle of many more

the reality is that people who are unemployable because of poor education, poor work habits, and poor personal choices suddenly don't become employable because a train or light rail or a bus or even a personal limo is now available for them to use

without decent schools you can build all the public transit you wish and people will still not want to live in that area

without decent government that is not filled with "my area" type thinkers with big public project dreams people will not want to live in an area

and when new employers can move to areas where employees live instead of being trapped in downtown dallas......IF downtown dallas would even work for their needs.....those new employers would just assume not locate in dallas proper as well.......paying more for less is not attractive to individuals or corporations

the vast majority of job growth drivers in dallas have happened in areas with little service by public transport and that will probably continue in the future

Downtown Dallas IS A CENTER OF JOB GROWTH.

Concerning Downtown Dallas' desirability for businesses and employers to locate - Downtown Dallas is drawing significant employment growth and numbers of corporations locating and relocating to it. The trend is very positive and on the upswing, not the reverse as you have portrayed.

Downtown Dallas is the healthiest it has been in probably 20 years and growing stronger by the day.

AT&T's World Headquarters, Comerica Bank's corporate headquarters, 7-Eleven's World Headquarters, Tenet Healthcare's corporate headquarters, Holly Oil's corporate headquarters, PaigeSutherlandPaige's corporate headquarters - and these are just the ones I can think of immediately while typing very fast - all relocated to Downtown Dallas on PURPOSE. They wanted to be there, and brought thousands and thousands of very good paying jobs with them.

Relocations from out of state to Downtown are happening on a steady basis as well - just in the last few months Moneygram International moved its headquarters from Minneapolis and Primoris International Services moved its headquarters from California to Downtown Dallas and did so on purpose as well. These come to mind quickly and I'm sure there are others to reference as well.

Concerning employment numbers, as of April 2011 data the Dallas-Plano-Irving Metropolitan Division has 2,065,600 jobs out of the DFW MSA's total employment of 2,929,700.

That means that 71% of all area employment is within the Dallas side of the metro - the DART side of the metro.

Out of the 2,065,600 jobs in the Dallas metro 1,052,536 of those jobs are located within the City Limits of Dallas itself.

That means in excess of 51% of all Dallas metro area jobs are located within the City Limits of Dallas itself.

The 1,052,536 City of Dallas jobs number is per the January 2011 estimate of the City of Dallas Economic Development Department - and most assuredly that number is thousands higher as of June 2011.

City of Dallas Economic Development also estimates for January 2011 that there are 557,986 employed residents living within the City Limits of Dallas.

That means at a minimum 500,000 or more people commute into the City Limits of Dallas for work every single day of the week.

That is an enormous opportunity space for DART to go after and capture those people who are commuting into Dallas for work every day.

And as pointed out above, Downtown Dallas' employment base is growing by thousands and IT IS A CENTER OF JOB GROWTH.

You may not be aware but Uptown is now a part of Downtown Dallas, a distinct district but still now defined as being Downtown Dallas. Uptown has just gone through one of the biggest building booms of modern times by adding around 10,000,000 square feet of space over the last six or seven years.

Uptown commands the absolute highest office rents in the entire metro area, Uptown has some of the highest occupancy levels of any office district in the entire metro, and Uptown is also a major residential center as well as office center. A recent estimate placed the population of Uptown alone at 20,000 people.

So to say that Downtown Dallas is not generating jobs or population growth is just patently incorrect.

Plus, a couple of months ago I did an analysis of the census tracts for the traditional Dallas CBD, Uptown, near East Dallas - those areas now considered part of Downtown.

The population growth for Downtown Dallas over the last ten years is staggering. Conservatively it is now at least 50,000 people that live in the area that is now defined as "Downtown".

Rome was not built in a day.

To expect DART to be perfect at this point in its very young life is ridiculous. It is a growing system, and will be finetuned over time to take advantage of its strengths and to overcome and correct its weaknesses.

Some TOD's already exist and other TOD's are underway and/or are planned. Again, let's give this a little more time to "flesh out" the framework that has been put in place before we all rush to declare DART a failure or the City of Dallas a catastrophe of epic proportions when facts clearly show the reverse to be true.

Part of the problem for DART's "declining ridership" is the honor system. Only those who actually pay their fare are reported as "riders" and there are probably thousands who just hop the train and never pay their way.

Another observation is that while DART is not perfect, it is one hell of a massive system to have in place from which to build. And make no mistake, DART's growth plans will push it even further ahead of any other cities in Texas or the Southwest.

Dallas is very fortunate to have DART and over the next decade the benefits of the system will become more than abundantly clear and people will no longer be able to naysay or second guess the system.

Again, Rome was not built in a day.

[TowerGuy]

Downtown Dallas IS A CENTER OF JOB GROWTH.

Concerning Downtown Dallas' desirability for businesses and employers to locate - Downtown Dallas is drawing significant employment growth and numbers of corporations locating and relocating to it. The trend is very positive and on the upswing, not the reverse as you have portrayed.

Downtown Dallas is the healthiest it has been in probably 20 years and growing stronger by the day.

AT&T's World Headquarters, Comerica Bank's corporate headquarters, 7-Eleven's World Headquarters, Tenet Healthcare's corporate headquarters, Holly Oil's corporate headquarters, PaigeSutherlandPaige's corporate headquarters - and these are just the ones I can think of immediately while typing very fast - all relocated to Downtown Dallas on PURPOSE. They wanted to be there, and brought thousands and thousands of very good paying jobs with them.

Relocations from out of state to Downtown are happening on a steady basis as well - just in the last few months Moneygram International moved its headquarters from Minneapolis and Primoris International Services moved its headquarters from California to Downtown Dallas and did so on purpose as well. These come to mind quickly and I'm sure there are others to reference as well.

Concerning employment numbers, as of April 2011 data the Dallas-Plano-Irving Metropolitan Division has 2,065,600 jobs out of the DFW MSA's total employment of 2,929,700.

That means that 71% of all area employment is within the Dallas side of the metro - the DART side of the metro.

Out of the 2,065,600 jobs in the Dallas metro 1,052,536 of those jobs are located within the City Limits of Dallas itself.

That means in excess of 51% of all Dallas metro area jobs are located within the City Limits of Dallas itself.

The 1,052,536 City of Dallas jobs number is per the January 2011 estimate of the City of Dallas Economic Development Department - and most assuredly that number is thousands higher as of June 2011.

City of Dallas Economic Development also estimates for January 2011 that there are 557,986 employed residents living within the City Limits of Dallas.

That means at a minimum 500,000 or more people commute into the City Limits of Dallas for work every single day of the week.

That is an enormous opportunity space for DART to go after and capture those people who are commuting into Dallas for work every day.

And as pointed out above, Downtown Dallas' employment base is growing by thousands and IT IS A CENTER OF JOB GROWTH.

You may not be aware but Uptown is now a part of Downtown Dallas, a distinct district but still now defined as being Downtown Dallas. Uptown has just gone through one of the biggest building booms of modern times by adding around 10,000,000 square feet of space over the last six or seven years.

Uptown commands the absolute highest office rents in the entire metro area, Uptown has some of the highest occupancy levels of any office district in the entire metro, and Uptown is also a major residential center as well as office center. A recent estimate placed the population of Uptown alone at 20,000 people.

So to say that Downtown Dallas is not generating jobs or population growth is just patently incorrect.

Plus, a couple of months ago I did an analysis of the census tracts for the traditional Dallas CBD, Uptown, near East Dallas - those areas now considered part of Downtown.

The population growth for Downtown Dallas over the last ten years is staggering. Conservatively it is now at least 50,000 people that live in the area that is now defined as "Downtown".

Rome was not built in a day.

To expect DART to be perfect at this point in its very young life is ridiculous. It is a growing system, and will be finetuned over time to take advantage of its strengths and to overcome and correct its weaknesses.

Some TOD's already exist and other TOD's are underway and/or are planned. Again, let's give this a little more time to "flesh out" the framework that has been put in place before we all rush to declare DART a failure or the City of Dallas a catastrophe of epic proportions when facts clearly show the reverse to be true.

Part of the problem for DART's "declining ridership" is the honor system. Only those who actually pay their fare are reported as "riders" and there are probably thousands who just hop the train and never pay their way.

Another observation is that while DART is not perfect, it is one hell of a massive system to have in place from which to build. And make no mistake, DART's growth plans will push it even further ahead of any other cities in Texas or the Southwest.

Dallas is very fortunate to have DART and over the next decade the benefits of the system will become more than abundantly clear and people will no longer be able to naysay or second guess the system.

Again, Rome was not built in a day.

Awesome response!
I appreciate a coherent and logical response based around the facts. However, TexasVines has a reputation on this forum for being a muckraker for the sole purpose of raking muck. He/She runs with the "facts optional" crowd. He/She barks but no one on here takes anything he/she has to say seriously.

[mjblazin]

How do you use those facts to say downtown is the center of DFW job growth? The census says otherwise. DART's own projections of sales tax growth for next decade say otherwise. It's those projections that forced almost the total stoppage of any new projects. Yes, percentage increases off a miniscule base are big numbers for downtown. Big whoop. When dealing with actual numbers of new jobs, Dallas City and downtown are not in the hunt.

You did identify the most fertile market for DART is within the city. DART needs to focus more attention on why so few of those people use DART. DART can grow ridership in a stagnant market because its share is now so small. For most of them, it cannot make economic sense unless they rate their free time at the same rate a partner at Goldman Sachs would. I'm guessing they focus on the daily charge because they don't know how to calculate true auto costs and don't have access to cheaper long term passes.

[Trae]

Awesome response!
I appreciate a coherent and logical response based around the facts. However, TexasVines has a reputation on this forum for being a muckraker for the sole purpose of raking muck. He/She runs with the "facts optional" crowd. He/She barks but no one on here takes anything he/she has to say seriously.

You might want to check his "facts". For example, he actually believes 500,000 people commute into the City of Dallas each day. I doubt the City of Dallas doubled the amount of people that commute there in just ten years. These numbers are from the 2000 Census: http://www.census.gov/population/www...aytimepop.html

skys the limit was right on one thing, and that is most of DART is already built. It's just getting people to ride it that seems like the biggest problem, plus this: http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/sh...d.php?t=102567

[skys the limit]

How do you use those facts to say downtown is the center of DFW job growth? The census says otherwise. DART's own projections of sales tax growth for next decade say otherwise. It's those projections that forced almost the total stoppage of any new projects. Yes, percentage increases off a miniscule base are big numbers for downtown. Big whoop. When dealing with actual numbers of new jobs, Dallas City and downtown are not in the hunt.

You did identify the most fertile market for DART is within the city. DART needs to focus more attention on why so few of those people use DART. DART can grow ridership in a stagnant market because its share is now so small. For most of them, it cannot make economic sense unless they rate their free time at the same rate a partner at Goldman Sachs would. I'm guessing they focus on the daily charge because they don't know how to calculate true auto costs and don't have access to cheaper long term passes.

I did not say that Downtown Dallas is THE center of DFW job growth.

If you go back and read what I actually wrote, I stated that Downtown Dallas is A center of job growth, which it is without a doubt.

As a comment, a city can be an enormous economic engine with job growth and contain significant job numbers but not necessarily be growing in population and vice versa. One is not dependent on the other.

Look at what is happening with Ft. Worth - it had a large population increase but its job growth is rather slow in comparison to Dallas.

Dallas did not have a large population gain in the last census but within its 342.5 square miles the City of Dallas contains 36% of all jobs within the DFW MSA. And the Dallas metropolitan division accounts for 76% of all job growth in the entire DFW MSA region per the latest BLS report: http://www.bls.gov/ro6/fax/dfw_ces.pdf



Downtown Dallas' 50,000+ in population is indeed a "big whoop" at this point in time, especially compared to other large cities in Texas.

The critical mass of population living in Downtown Dallas needs to be larger but that is one hell of a nice population for a Downtown core that a few years ago literally had only a tiny handful of people living there.



Let's look at some data and fact and see where the City of Dallas stacks up in the job numbers for the area.

March 2011 is the most recent month for which both DFW MSA and City of Dallas jobs numbers are available to compare.

According to the Texas Workforce Commission, the DFW MSA gained 15,600 jobs in March 2011:

http://www.dallasnews.com/business/h...edges-down.ece ;

According to the City of Dallas Department of Economic Development, the City of Dallas added 6,969 jobs in March of 2011:

http://www.dallas-ecodev.org/SiteCon...2011/april.pdf ;

The math shows that the City of Dallas accounted for 45% of all new jobs added in the entire DFW MSA region during the month of March 2011 (6,969 / 15,600 = 45%)

The City of Dallas alone accounted for 45% of all new jobs added in the entire DFW MSA during the month of March 2011.

I do not have the data or statistics that further breaks out the City of Dallas job gains in March for Downtown Dallas but I will see if I can obtain that specific information and will share with you if I do.



The opportunity space for DART is indeed huge if the transportation agency can figure out how to maximize it. But I'm not sure what "stagnant" market you refer to.

The Dallas-Plano-Irving metropolitan division grew by 784,525 people from 2000 to 2010 - pretty significant population growth - and that is precisely the market that DART serves.

The potential DART market grew by 23% in population over the last decade. The City of Dallas employment growth is commanding the lion's share of new job growth in the entire DFW MSA region, much less the Dallas-Plano-Irving metro.

So it would seem there is plenty of growth opportunity all the way around for DART in the very high growth market that exists in the Dallas-Plano-Irving metro and within the City Limits of Dallas itself.

[skys the limit]

Awesome response!
I appreciate a coherent and logical response based around the facts. However, TexasVines has a reputation on this forum for being a muckraker for the sole purpose of raking muck. He/She runs with the "facts optional" crowd. He/She barks but no one on here takes anything he/she has to say seriously.

Thank you very much!

I agree, there are certain ones on this board that clearly espouse the "facts optional" mindset.

Or if anything should point to a positive about Dallas or the Dallas metro area, they are quick to throw stones with no basis for doing so. I think most who do that are just simply jealous.

I will post all of the data sources for every piece of data that I referred to in my post tomorrow so that you, and the "facts optional" crowd, will have it. I would do it tonight but I have to log off.

[mjblazin]

Something's not jiving where the rubber meets the road: dollars. Both Dallas City and County are looking at least two more years of severe cutbacks and downsizing while surrounding jurisdictions seem to be recovering more in line with overall Texas recovery. I would love to say growth will solve the problem, but the dollars are not there.

Until the dollars are there, DART stays status quo with no improvements. The Orange Line, while needed, won't do much for overall ridership or financial stability. The rail and bus frequency stays the same. We are looking at probably a 15 year drought when DART will see little change nor can it promise much to cities that would join DART.

I still think DART needs to focus on the city residents in the $15K-30K income range and make its case on why transit is the best idea for them. None of the existing middle and senior managers will have any capital projects to distract them from now until they retire. They may as well work selling DART to Dallas City.

[Rodger Jones]

I did not say that Downtown Dallas is THE center of DFW job growth. ... I stated that Downtown Dallas is A center of job growth, which it is without a doubt. -- Originally posted by sky's the iimi

the reality is that downtown dallas is no longer a center of job growth -- Originally posted by TexasVines

Who has the source of the best and latest statistics on job growth downtown?

I could go looking, but it sounds like many people in this discussion have already done the homework.

The cites should be sure to compare apples-apples. That is, the Downtown Dallas organization has, for advocacy purposes, expanded the boundaries of "downtown" far beyond the CBD. Its definition includes Cedars, Uptown, Deep Ellum, Design District, etc.

I'm interested in a CBD-to-CBD comparison of job growth in a specific period of time. A comparison of the larger pie could be tougher, but it's certainly relevant.

I don't doubt the statistics on overall Dallas job growth. But the central Dallas focus is more relevant to DART's ridership because of the hub-and-spokes orientation of light rail.

[tamtagon]

You know, Rodger Jones, those are the kind of data I would hope to read in the DMN, and then spot check for accuracy along with a handful of other forum participants....

Off hand, I don't remember the job tally for historic, inside the freeway collar, downtown, but at worst, I think just about the same number of people work there as at any time during the recent decade. LoMac/Uptown, however, has seen thousands of new office workers move in.

[AeroD]

Could folks also be driving more fuel efficient cars as a result of the previous spike in fuel?

Fiat opened a dealership in McKinney recently. People in McKinney are driving far to begin with whether it is to the Telecom Corridor, Downtown or Legacy.

Yes, I know they are not part of DART.

[mjblazin]

You know, Rodger Jones, those are the kind of data I would hope to read in the DMN, and then spot check for accuracy along with a handful of other forum participants....

Off hand, I don't remember the job tally for historic, inside the freeway collar, downtown, but at worst, I think just about the same number of people work there as at any time during the recent decade. LoMac/Uptown, however, has seen thousands of new office workers move in.

I think the legacy downtown has much fewer workers. Elm Place, a building that had at least close to 1,000 workers is dark. Just about all those workers stayed in the city for revenue purposes, but they are not within the freeway collar. Even buildings like BofA Plaza seem much more empty. 5 years ago you could not find a lunch table in the plaza level. Now it's no problem. Once long lines at the two Starbucks, now empty. Blockbuster sale/layoffs and Elm Place being empty put a big hole in downtown that is not going to be filled anytime soon.

[AeroD]

5 years ago you could not find a lunch table in the plaza level. Now it's no problem. Once long lines at the two Starbucks, now empty.

Maybe people are being more thrifty.

[Tucy]

In the spirit of facts not being optional:

Downtown Dallas IS A CENTER OF JOB GROWTH.

Concerning Downtown Dallas' desirability for businesses and employers to locate - Downtown Dallas is drawing significant employment growth and numbers of corporations locating and relocating to it. The trend is very positive and on the upswing, not the reverse as you have portrayed.

Downtown Dallas is the healthiest it has been in probably 20 years and growing stronger by the day.

AT&T's World Headquarters, Comerica Bank's corporate headquarters, 7-Eleven's World Headquarters, Tenet Healthcare's corporate headquarters, Holly Oil's corporate headquarters, PaigeSutherlandPaige's corporate headquarters - and these are just the ones I can think of immediately while typing very fast - all relocated to Downtown Dallas on PURPOSE. They wanted to be there, and brought thousands and thousands of very good paying jobs with them.

7-11, Holly Oil and Page Southerland Page have all been located in your expanded definition of downtown for many years (and I don't think the Dallas office is PSP's headquarters, fwiw). Since you have expanded the definition of downtown, you can't hardly claim these as relocations into downtown. So, that leaves you with AT&T, Tenet and Comerica... Very nice relocations indeed. But hundreds of jobs, not thousands.

Relocations from out of state to Downtown are happening on a steady basis as well - just in the last few months Moneygram International moved its headquarters from Minneapolis and Primoris International Services moved its headquarters from California to Downtown Dallas and did so on purpose as well. These come to mind quickly and I'm sure there are others to reference as well.

Concerning employment numbers, as of April 2011 data the Dallas-Plano-Irving Metropolitan Division has 2,065,600 jobs out of the DFW MSA's total employment of 2,929,700.

That means that 71% of all area employment is within the Dallas side of the metro - the DART side of the metro.

Out of the 2,065,600 jobs in the Dallas metro 1,052,536 of those jobs are located within the City Limits of Dallas itself.

That means in excess of 51% of all Dallas metro area jobs are located within the City Limits of Dallas itself.

The 1,052,536 City of Dallas jobs number is per the January 2011 estimate of the City of Dallas Economic Development Department - and most assuredly that number is thousands higher as of June 2011.

City of Dallas Economic Development also estimates for January 2011 that there are 557,986 employed residents living within the City Limits of Dallas.

That means at a minimum 500,000 or more people commute into the City Limits of Dallas for work every single day of the week.

That is an enormous opportunity space for DART to go after and capture those people who are commuting into Dallas for work every day.

And as pointed out above, Downtown Dallas' employment base is growing by thousands and IT IS A CENTER OF JOB GROWTH.

I look forward to your evidence that Downtown Dallas' employment base is growing or has grown by thousands.

You may not be aware but Uptown is now a part of Downtown Dallas, a distinct district but still now defined as being Downtown Dallas. Uptown has just gone through one of the biggest building booms of modern times by adding around 10,000,000 square feet of space over the last six or seven years.


This is what I love about Dallas. After 30 or 40 years of promising that a healthy downtown was just around the corner, the downtown Dallas boosters have thrown up their hands and decided that if we can't get a healthy downtown, we'll just redefine it. Genius! So, accepting the marketing-driven redefinition of downtown Dallas. . .

According to Transwestern's 1st quarter office market report, the entire Uptown District contains 11.7 million square feet of rentable office space. And you would have us believe that 10 million square feet (85% of the total) has been added in the last six or seven years??

Uptown commands the absolute highest office rents in the entire metro area, Uptown has some of the highest occupancy levels of any office district in the entire metro, and Uptown is also a major residential center as well as office center. A recent estimate placed the population of Uptown alone at 20,000 people.

Why the focus on Uptown? I thought we were talking about downtown Dallas, of which Uptown is only a fraction. In any case, this is another paragraph in which facts have apparently become optional. According to Transwestern, Uptown does not have the "absolute highest office rents. That "honor" goes to Preston Center. Further, Uptown and the CBD were 2 of only 7 districts in the entire Metroplex where Class A rents declined in 1st Quarter 2011 (out of 23 districts that have Class A office space).

Uptown's occupancy rate is not "some of the highest. . . in the entire metro." In fact, its occupancy rate is a fairly weak 82.1%, lower than the average occupancy for the entire metroplex. Transwestern shows 33 office submarkets, 25 of which have occupancy rates higher than Uptown's. And in a discussion about downtown, it is a bit disingenous to ignore the (much larger) CBD portion of downtown, which has the metro's 3rd lowest occupancy rate (out of 33 districts).

Another interesting fact from the Transwestern report: For the period 2008 - 1st quarter 2011, Uptown and CBD combined had a cumulative negative absorption of 811,000 square feet of office space. Hardly what one would expect in a market adding thousands of jobs. During that same time period, the entire metroplex had a positive absorption of 5.8 million square feet (which means that without the drag of downtown Dallas, the rest of the metroplex had positive absorption of 6.6 million square feet.

So to say that Downtown Dallas is not generating jobs or population growth is just patently incorrect.

Again, I look forward to evidence of large job growth in downtown Dallas.

Plus, a couple of months ago I did an analysis of the census tracts for the traditional Dallas CBD, Uptown, near East Dallas - those areas now considered part of Downtown.

The population growth for Downtown Dallas over the last ten years is staggering. Conservatively it is now at least 50,000 people that live in the area that is now defined as "Downtown".

Rome was not built in a day.

To expect DART to be perfect at this point in its very young life is ridiculous. It is a growing system, and will be finetuned over time to take advantage of its strengths and to overcome and correct its weaknesses.

Some TOD's already exist and other TOD's are underway and/or are planned. Again, let's give this a little more time to "flesh out" the framework that has been put in place before we all rush to declare DART a failure or the City of Dallas a catastrophe of epic proportions when facts clearly show the reverse to be true.

Part of the problem for DART's "declining ridership" is the honor system. Only those who actually pay their fare are reported as "riders" and there are probably thousands who just hop the train and never pay their way.

Another observation is that while DART is not perfect, it is one hell of a massive system to have in place from which to build. And make no mistake, DART's growth plans will push it even further ahead of any other cities in Texas or the Southwest.

Dallas is very fortunate to have DART and over the next decade the benefits of the system will become more than abundantly clear and people will no longer be able to naysay or second guess the system.

Again, Rome was not built in a day.

[Lakewooder]

I enjoy his comments on many message boards.....at least he brings ideas and tries to learn about things




the reality of declining ridership is all over this forum......only the vast majority of people found on forums like this will never see that reality

the reality is that downtown dallas is no longer a center of job growth

the reality is the vast majority of people will be closer to their job in the metromess living anywhere but downtown dallas

the reality is that the city of dallas is no longer the center of residential growth in the metromess

the reality is that a lot of people do not want to live in dallas proper because of horrible schools and horrible governance

the reality is you can still come to dallas for the few things dallas does offer while living in someplace besides dallas......and if the dallas based public transport makes the charge too high for that....the reality is you can drive a car

the reality is that expensive high rise condos are not affordable for most people and do not fit the lifestyle of many more

the reality is that people who are unemployable because of poor education, poor work habits, and poor personal choices suddenly don't become employable because a train or light rail or a bus or even a personal limo is now available for them to use

without decent schools you can build all the public transit you wish and people will still not want to live in that area

without decent government that is not filled with "my area" type thinkers with big public project dreams people will not want to live in an area

and when new employers can move to areas where employees live instead of being trapped in downtown dallas......IF downtown dallas would even work for their needs.....those new employers would just assume not locate in dallas proper as well.......paying more for less is not attractive to individuals or corporations

the vast majority of job growth drivers in dallas have happened in areas with little service by public transport and that will probably continue in the future

Well I guess you demonstrate the reality that a lot of stupid suburbanites believe the schools are 'horrible' without doing any homework. If they did they would see that many Dallas schools outrank suburban ones.

[Alex Rodriguez]

None of this discussion of systemic problems with DTD have any bearing on declining ridership since 2008, and my opinion is that it doesn't have any bearing on declining ridership over the past 20 years. Whatever has been lost in office workers in the legacy core of DTD have basically been replaced with new residents.

And fare enforcement has nothing to do with DARTs problems. Zero.

While there may be things that are completely out of DARTs control in regards to ridership, there are plenty of things that they do control. And on many of those issues, they do a mediocre (at best) job. Sometime bordering on incompetent. Regardless of the systemic problems, DART should be maximizing the system, and unless you are a DART board member, you know that DART is doing anything but.

I'll say it one more time. DART should be all about selling a world class product and doing everything humanly possible to encourage both ridership and development. DART should be working hard to help the member cities bring in new sales tax revenue. DART needs to stop spinning their wheels looking for chump change in the 1% fringe part of their budget, and start figuring out how to increase the dollars that impact 85% of their budget.

There is a reason that they only revenue generation plans you hear about in the papers are charging for parking, and special fare machines at the endpoints. It's because that's all the brilliant minds over there can come up with. There's 20 other initiatives that would make an immediate impact to making DART a world class product, most of them are relatively inexpensive. But you wont hear anything about those in the DMN because they aren't doing any of them.

[mjblazin]

What are the 20 inexpensive initiatives that will significantly raise sales tax revenues in member cities that various mayors, councilpersons, and municipal managers all missed?

[Alex Rodriguez]

I'm looking out on the CBD from my perch high above, and I see surface lots that are crammed full. Every surface lot around Fountain place is 90% full. Same thing around Renaissance Tower, around Trammel Crow, in the West End.

Everyone last lot is full of cars. And the parking garages have tons of cars on their top levels, I am going to assume they are 90% full as well. No questions as to why DART as an agency isn't capturing more of this traffic?

And you've got a ton of folks living in all of the downtown residential, from Mosaic to Republic, to 505 N. Akard, to the new Apartment complexes in the West End, the big one down by Farmers Market, there are people friggin everywhere in Downtown these days.

Yet ridership declines. DARTs system is DARTs system. CBD is what it is. Time for the excuses to stop, and time to figure out how to gain market share like any other business.

[mjblazin]

I agree DART should look to capture more market share. Capturing more share is not going to do much on finances sinces ticket prices are a tiny piece of revenue.
I did not think 20 inexpensive initiatives to raise sales taxes existed that someone was not already doing.

Focusing on the price of gas won't do anything because it's a small share of the total auto cost. DART education should be on why you don't need two cars, not on saving gas. As long as people have access to individual transportation and they incur 80% of its cost in loans, regulations, and maintenance even if it never leaves the garage, DART's incremental benefits are small in most cases. Going from a 3 car to 2 car or 2 car to 1 car family can save the really big bucks. DART can make that happen and it'll be worth the extra time.

I'm not advocating anything punitive on car ownership. An education campaign on the personal costs of ownership might convince some people to take those dollars and use DART, particularly as they debate replacing that second or third car.

[Alex Rodriguez]

What are the 20 inexpensive initiatives that will significantly raise sales tax revenues in member cities that various mayors, councilpersons, and municipal managers all missed?

Here are some I've mentioned 20 times on this forum.

1. Run your trains on time in all weather. Run your buses on time so that you don't have the all-too-common occurance of the bus pulling up just as the train is pulling out. Both should be easy things to do, you would think. You would think.
2. Significantly improve pedestrian access to their stations. I cannot tell you how many stations on the Green and Red Line I see that I wonder, how in the heck could somebody possibly walk here? The parking lot is beautiful, and it and the station are surrounded by a chain link fence and weeds. And just beyond that is 500 houses.
3. Cheap advertising for retail in and around their bus and rail stops. Please stop with the William Wadsworth poetry posters in your trains. That is valuable revenue generating space for both you and the businesses near your stops. And all the advertising space they squander at the rail stops? Where are the maps like you see at the mall, where someone can know what restaurants, retail, and residential there is near the station.
4. Market retail and residential like mad online. The website should be a one stop shop for anyone that wants to find opportunities to live on a DART line. Work with the member cities to market the heck out of retail and residential. Right now its a whole bag of nothing from DART.
5. Covered areas at your bus stops. Benches, seats.
6. Redo your platforms along the Red Line for 3 SLRVs. Pricey but this really should be a no brainer. They lost a ton of ridership on the Red Line due to overcrowding, and they have no spare capacity anymore with the new schedule. The Red Line should be DARTs showcase line, instead its a punch line. How many armpits can you smell in one year.
7. Clean your buses and trains.
8. Increased DART police presence at problem stations, and increased DART police presence on the trains.

Theres a couple more I'm forgetting, but there you go.

[Alex Rodriguez]

I agree DART should look to capture more market share. Capturing more share is not going to do much on finances sinces ticket prices are a tiny piece of revenue.
I did not think 20 inexpensive initiatives to raise sales taxes existed that someone was not already doing.

Focusing on the price of gas won't do anything because it's a small share of the total auto cost. DART education should be on why you don't need two cars, not on saving gas. As long as people have access to individual transportation and they incur 80% of its cost in loans, regulations, and maintenance even if it never leaves the garage, DART's incremental benefits are small in most cases. Going from a 3 car to 2 car or 2 car to 1 car family can save the really big bucks. DART can make that happen and it'll be worth the extra time.

I'm not advocating anything punitive on car ownership. An education campaign on the personal costs of ownership might convince some people to take those dollars and use DART, particularly as they debate replacing that second or third car.

If you capture market share, if you have booming ridership, then all those empty lots around most of the rail stations start to be developed. If that starts to develop, then sales tax revenue goes up. If sales tax revenue goes up DART makes money hand over fist. That is my whole point. Sales Tax Revenue increases could be 20-30 Million a year. Plus fare revenue is 15% of your budget, that is potentially a few million as well.

But DARTs plan seems to be trying to figure out how to make 750K from the poor saps in Coppell and McKinney, further discouraging ridership.

[Mballar]

Here are some I've mentioned 20 times on this forum.

1. Run your trains on time in all weather. Run your buses on time so that you don't have the all-too-common occurance of the bus pulling up just as the train is pulling out. Both should be easy things to do, you would think. You would think.
2. Significantly improve pedestrian access to their stations. I cannot tell you how many stations on the Green and Red Line I see that I wonder, how in the heck could somebody possibly walk here? The parking lot is beautiful, and it and the station are surrounded by a chain link fence and weeds. And just beyond that is 500 houses.
3. Cheap advertising for retail in and around their bus and rail stops. Please stop with the William Wadsworth poetry posters in your trains. That is valuable revenue generating space for both you and the businesses near your stops. And all the advertising space they squander at the rail stops? Where are the maps like you see at the mall, where someone can know what restaurants, retail, and residential there is near the station.
4. Market retail and residential like mad online. The website should be a one stop shop for anyone that wants to find opportunities to live on a DART line. Work with the member cities to market the heck out of retail and residential. Right now its a whole bag of nothing from DART.
5. Covered areas at your bus stops. Benches, seats.
6. Redo your platforms along the Red Line for 3 SLRVs. Pricey but this really should be a no brainer. They lost a ton of ridership on the Red Line due to overcrowding, and they have no spare capacity anymore with the new schedule. The Red Line should be DARTs showcase line, instead its a punch line. How many armpits can you smell in one year.
7. Clean your buses and trains.
8. Increased DART police presence at problem stations, and increased DART police presence on the trains.

Theres a couple more I'm forgetting, but there you go.

I'm sure you've reported these concerns/suggestions to DART, in addition to complaining (repeatedly) about them here.

[cmacemm]

Why don't they go to all the parking lots (which by the way, I see completely filled as well) and try offering some incentives to get people to ride. Maybe like a free months pass. Maybe just send some people to several of the larger garages at around 5 pm and ask people walking to their cars why they don't take DART>

[Alex Rodriguez]

Why don't they go to all the parking lots (which by the way, I see completely filled as well) and try offering some incentives to get people to ride. Maybe like a free months pass. Maybe just send some people to several of the larger garages at around 5 pm and ask people walking to their cars why they don't take DART>

This makes too much sense to ever be implemented.

[AeroD]

Folks, let just face it. The only reason anybody lives in the Southeast and Southwest is because of air conditioning. Air conditioning made the Sun Belt habitable. Hell even Trae would not be able to stand Houston - he would marry the place and have its babies - if it were not for AC. Otherwise you are sweating balls nearly year round.

With that in mind. If you have to go to work in slacks, and wait for a train even for 10 minutes, and get anxiety from you iPhone blowing up with morning emails, you start to break a sweat. And then break a sweat about breaking a sweat. So you opt for getting in your car where you can turn the AC on full blast.

[Alex Rodriguez]

I'm sure you've reported these concerns/suggestions to DART, in addition to complaining (repeatedly) about them here.

I have.

[cmacemm]

Folks, let just face it. The only reason anybody lives in the Southeast and Southwest is because of air conditioning. Air conditioning made the Sun Belt habitable. Hell even Trae would not be able to stand Houston - he would marry the place and have its babies - if were not for AC. Otherwise you are sweating balls nearly year round.

With that in mind. If you have to go to work in slacks, and wait for a train even for 10 minutes, and get anxiety from you iPhone blowing up with morning emails, you start to break a sweat. And then break a sweat about breaking a sweat. So you opt for getting in your car where you can turn the AC on full blast.

I do it daily and I have to wear long sleeves because I have full sleeves (tattoos). And I also have a fuel efficient car.

[mjblazin]

If you capture market share, if you have booming ridership, then all those empty lots around most of the rail stations start to be developed. If that starts to develop, then sales tax revenue goes up. If sales tax revenue goes up DART makes money hand over fist. That is my whole point. Sales Tax Revenue increases could be 20-30 Million a year. Plus fare revenue is 15% of your budget, that is potentially a few million as well.

Transit oriented development focuses development around transit points to encourage more riders and less cars. Successful development begets more development. I don't think the converse works: more riders creates development. No station has more activity than West End. Besides a McDonald's and a Miss Chicken, it's ringed by empty buildings/lots. Even Mockingbird Station does not really feed off the riders.

[Alex Rodriguez]

And right on cue, I'm on a green line train headed north and it's 15 minutes late and packed like sardines. Now we are stuck at Bachman station. Exactly what causes people to say "screw DART". And it happens all too frequently. It's not like DART overcomes mechanical problems or delays like Southwest Airlines does. There is little goodwill built up

[cmacemm]

And right on cue, I'm on a green line train headed north and it's 15 minutes late and packed like sardines. Now we are stuck at Bachman station. Exactly what causes people to say "screw DART". And it happens all too frequently. It's not like DART overcomes mechanical problems or delays like Southwest Airlines does.

I get delayed rather frequently in the red/blue line tunnel, which also means I have to wait to get out to call my job and tell them I'm going to be late.

[homeworld1031tx]

I was on a green line train late on Sunday, northbound. My stop was Royal station. Of course, when we pull up....the doors didn't open. The driver just pulled away from the station without letting anyone out. I'm not sure if the first car's doors opened either, but even if they did there is a chance no one got out because it was off peak hours.

I can't imagine how this happened, and how DART cannot even get a simple thing such as opening a door right. We had to get off at the next station and wait for a train back.

I wasn't too annoyed but it's just disheartening that they can mess something so easy up

[gosspl]

I was on a green line train late on Sunday, northbound. My stop was Royal station. Of course, when we pull up....the doors didn't open. The driver just pulled away from the station without letting anyone out. I'm not sure if the first car's doors opened either, but even if they did there is a chance no one got out because it was off peak hours.

I can't imagine how this happened, and how DART cannot even get a simple thing such as opening a door right. We had to get off at the next station and wait for a train back.

I wasn't too annoyed but it's just disheartening that they can mess something so easy up

Did you try hitting the "open" button near the door? I've noticed that on the Green Line during off-peak hours they won't open the door if no one is on the platform. Lazy? Yes. But on the other hand it conserves precious air conditioning.

In regards to falling ridership numbers: I want to ride DART. I consider myself a huge transit nerd, and I even find it hard to justify taking DART.

Even though I live and work in Dallas, it takes me an hour to get to work using DART vs 20 minutes in my car. Why is that? Every route available to me takes me downtown. I don't need to go downtown - I need cross town, people.

I know that density makes a huge difference in all of this, but why is it that only a small section of the Blue Line runs down the middle of the street? Couldn't a line have gone down the center of Lemmon? A line down Greenville? I know - call me a dreamer or just horribly misinformed.

Alright - back to fighting traffic in the Prius.

[electricron]

Did you try hitting the "open" button near the door? I've noticed that on the Green Line during off-peak hours they won't open the door if no one is on the platform. Lazy? Yes. But on the other hand it conserves precious air conditioning.

I know that density makes a huge difference in all of this, but why is it that only a small section of the Blue Line runs down the middle of the street? Couldn't a line have gone down the center of Lemmon? A line down Greenville? I know - call me a dreamer or just horribly misinformed.

I completely agree that DART train operators shouldn't automatically open train doors. There is a button available, use it.

Just wanted to point out that there will be a section of the Orange line going down the center median in Irving too.

If you check out the history of the Blue line corridor in Oak Cliff, you'll discover it mostly follows an abandoned interurban route. That's why the DART police station is often referred to as the old Monroe Shops, it once was the maintenance shops for the interurban. You can still see some of the interuban's abandoned viaducts (bridges) north of the junction where the Blue line joins the Red line. A long time ago when Lancaster Road was widen into a divided 4 lane avenue, they used the old interurban right of way. When DART built the Blue line in Lancaster Road's median, light rail effectively took back some of the old interurban's right of way, a full circle in a way..

DART didn't use Lemmon because they owned an abandoned rail right of way within a few blocks. There was need to make a deal with the City to use city streets in this area. Making deals with cities to use city streets for rail corridors reduces DART's independence of authority - allowing cities opportunities to delay and kill projects. The City can pass resolutions requesting DART to build the Cotton Belt below grade all they want, DART isn't required to do so because they own the corridor independently. They are the masters in charge of the rail corridor, not the City.

There isn't an abandoned rail corridor in Irving that DART could buy to use. DART is following State Highways to use as much publicly owned property as possible. When the Orange line leaves the state highway corridors, it uses Irving's streets and a corridor preserved by the City of Irving until it reaches DFW Airport property. So much of the Orange line property was already owned by public entities, making acquiring the property for the Orange line cheaper overall. But DART is still spending more acquiring property for the Orange line than it would have if there were an abandoned rail corridor available. Additionally, concessions of various sorts, had to be given to Irving, TXDOT, and DFW Airport.

[mjblazin]

I completely agree that DART train operators shouldn't automatically open train doors. There is a button available, use it. .

That button does not work unless the operator activates it. It's equivalent to the close elevator doors button. I've run from car to car pressing different buttons and used the squawk box with no response. It always seems to happen to me at the Cedars station when no one waits to board. It is not cool when you also have your bike. I've watched the operator at other times and they press a button on the right side of the panel. The doors always open well at next stop where people are waiting so it's not a door issue.

Consequently it occurs with operators that are forgetful and have poor attention to detail. I assume these individuals are being groomed for senior management slots at DART.

[ksig121]

That button does not work unless the operator activates it. It's equivalent to the close elevator doors button. I've run from car to car pressing different buttons and used the squawk box with no response. It always seems to happen to me at the Cedars station when no one waits to board. It is not cool when you also have your bike. I've watched the operator at other times and they press a button on the right side of the panel. The doors always open well at next stop where people are waiting so it's not a door issue.

Consequently it occurs with operators that are forgetful and have poor attention to detail. I assume these individuals are being groomed for senior management slots at DART.

I agree with you here. Especially in a city like Dallas that isn't as "transit savvy" as others. Most people believe that when you are on a train that when it stops at a station that the doors will open. It should not be on the rider to push a button to exit a TRAIN. I can understand with buses that use roads not stopping unless a stop is requested or a person is at the stop. In a dedicated right of way, there is no excuse for not stopping and opening the doors.

If DART wants people to use their service, then they need to take care of little things like this. One missed stop can ruin a day for a rider who doesn't normally use DART. That first impression sticks and then there is nothing that DART can do to get that rider back. It's just like with a retailer. If you have a bad customer service experience, you will probably tell 10 people about it.

Instead of having transit nerds running this agency, they need to get creative and get some folks in there who actually know how to SELL a service. DART's problem is not building and running an efficient transit operation. It's problem is not understanding what their target market wants and making some adjustments to that "efficiency" to win them over. If a train stops at a station and open doors even when there's no one there, it conveys a sense of consistency and service.

Telling a guy that just missed his stop to meet some friends to watch a game at a watering hole that it is HIS fault for not pushing a button (on a TRAIN) to open the doors at a STATION is ridiculous. The first thing that he is going to do when he finally gets to his destination is complain about the experience to anyone who will listen and write off DART as a viable transit option.

The same goes for running the trains during the ice storm and placing DART employees at the stations. No one tells DART employees to work for DART. A part of their job is to take care of their riders no matter what the weather is. If someone has to stand on a platform to give updates and clear ice during an event like that, then so be it. If it costs a little more money to run trains all night to ensure that wires and tracks are clear, then so be it. That is a part of doing their JOB!

No offense to "transit nerds". They did a great job of planning and building the system. Now let some folks who have experience with customer service get in there and sell the damned thing!

I'm coming down off of my soap box now...

[hamiltonpl]

I understand keeping the doors closed for air conditioning purposes. But there has to be an audible message or very large sign that we have to push a button to open the doors. Since the same passenger didn't have to open a door to get into the train, he doesn't understand that he has to push a button to get off the train.

[Alex Rodriguez]

I agree with you here. Especially in a city like Dallas that isn't as "transit savvy" as others. Most people believe that when you are on a train that when it stops at a station that the doors will open. It should not be on the rider to push a button to exit a TRAIN. I can understand with buses that use roads not stopping unless a stop is requested or a person is at the stop. In a dedicated right of way, there is no excuse for not stopping and opening the doors.

If DART wants people to use their service, then they need to take care of little things like this. One missed stop can ruin a day for a rider who doesn't normally use DART. That first impression sticks and then there is nothing that DART can do to get that rider back. It's just like with a retailer. If you have a bad customer service experience, you will probably tell 10 people about it.

Instead of having transit nerds running this agency, they need to get creative and get some folks in there who actually know how to SELL a service. DART's problem is not building and running an efficient transit operation. It's problem is not understanding what their target market wants and making some adjustments to that "efficiency" to win them over. If a train stops at a station and open doors even when there's no one there, it conveys a sense of consistency and service.

Telling a guy that just missed his stop to meet some friends to watch a game at a watering hole that it is HIS fault for not pushing a button (on a TRAIN) to open the doors at a STATION is ridiculous. The first thing that he is going to do when he finally gets to his destination is complain about the experience to anyone who will listen and write off DART as a viable transit option.

The same goes for running the trains during the ice storm and placing DART employees at the stations. No one tells DART employees to work for DART. A part of their job is to take care of their riders no matter what the weather is. If someone has to stand on a platform to give updates and clear ice during an event like that, then so be it. If it costs a little more money to run trains all night to ensure that wires and tracks are clear, then so be it. That is a part of doing their JOB!

No offense to "transit nerds". They did a great job of planning and building the system. Now let some folks who have experience with customer service get in there and sell the damned thing!

I'm coming down off of my soap box now...

THIS

[homeworld1031tx]

There is a button available, use it.

We did use the button. As did another person at another door in the same car. They didn't work.

[Mballar]

I understand keeping the doors closed for air conditioning purposes. But there has to be an audible message or very large sign that we have to push a button to open the doors. Since the same passenger didn't have to open a door to get into the train, he doesn't understand that he has to push a button to get off the train.

I'm on a Northbound Green Line train right now. Look at what's up on the wall.

[mjblazin]

That sign explains why you cannot open door when boarding, not exiting. All incidents of doors not opening are when train pulls into station, not as it prepares to leave.

[Mballar]

Yes. I know. I tries to post the following from my phone earlier, but I received a server error.

Now, that sign is for individuals who can't figure out how to open the doors from outside the train. Apparently, DART may need to create another sign for individuals who find opening the train doors fom the inside challenging.

The point of the comment was to illustrate that DART recognizes that certain people still haven't fully figured out how to ride the train.

[TowerGuy]

I agree with you here. Especially in a city like Dallas that isn't as "transit savvy" as others. Most people believe that when you are on a train that when it stops at a station that the doors will open. It should not be on the rider to push a button to exit a TRAIN. I can understand with buses that use roads not stopping unless a stop is requested or a person is at the stop. In a dedicated right of way, there is no excuse for not stopping and opening the doors.

If DART wants people to use their service, then they need to take care of little things like this. One missed stop can ruin a day for a rider who doesn't normally use DART. That first impression sticks and then there is nothing that DART can do to get that rider back. It's just like with a retailer. If you have a bad customer service experience, you will probably tell 10 people about it.

Instead of having transit nerds running this agency, they need to get creative and get some folks in there who actually know how to SELL a service. DART's problem is not building and running an efficient transit operation. It's problem is not understanding what their target market wants and making some adjustments to that "efficiency" to win them over. If a train stops at a station and open doors even when there's no one there, it conveys a sense of consistency and service.

Telling a guy that just missed his stop to meet some friends to watch a game at a watering hole that it is HIS fault for not pushing a button (on a TRAIN) to open the doors at a STATION is ridiculous. The first thing that he is going to do when he finally gets to his destination is complain about the experience to anyone who will listen and write off DART as a viable transit option.

The same goes for running the trains during the ice storm and placing DART employees at the stations. No one tells DART employees to work for DART. A part of their job is to take care of their riders no matter what the weather is. If someone has to stand on a platform to give updates and clear ice during an event like that, then so be it. If it costs a little more money to run trains all night to ensure that wires and tracks are clear, then so be it. That is a part of doing their JOB!

No offense to "transit nerds". They did a great job of planning and building the system. Now let some folks who have experience with customer service get in there and sell the damned thing!

I'm coming down off of my soap box now...

There are no words!!!! Fanned and Faved! I agree, it is a damn good system that has simply OUTGROWN its leadership! Why don't we have "reputation points" on this forum?

[ksig121]

The point of the comment was to illustrate that DART recognizes that certain people still haven't fully figured out how to ride the train.

DART needs to understand the market that they are operating in. The only experience that most people in Dallas have had with rail transit are in cities like NYC and Chicago where it is an automatic that when a train stops that the doors will open. If you expect people to patronize your system, you have to understand their habits and expectations. Not that I think this should be the case, but if DART were a FOR PROFIT operation, I guarantee you that you would never see a sign like this one.

What would be the reaction if a checker at a discount retail establishment who had a full line all of a sudden closed their line just before the last customer because they had to clock out for their break? Then, they point to a sign that says, "Sorry for the inconvenience, there will be another checker here in 15 minutes to continue your checkout process." In this city, you would have an irate customer asking for a manager and making a big production out of it. They would never patronize that discount store again and spend the extra money at a premium store because they would be confident about receiving consistent service.

This is the mindset that DART is dealing with. They don't seem to get that. Sure, driving is a more expensive alternative, but compared with the prospect of a train leaving them behind at a station, most people gladly make that expense work. You can make gas as expensive as you want. People will just buy more fuel efficient cars (in Dallas). Unless they have an expectation that DART can give them an experience on par or better than what they get driving, this will continue to be the case. Instead of DART waiting for the market to come over to their line of thinking, they need to adapt theirs to get the ridership that they desire.

[tamtagon]

Since the DART HQ is on the downtown transit mall, is it safe to assume just about everyone who works there takes a train and/or bus to work?

[mjblazin]

I've been told that DART employees can ride free if they are riding to/from work. It was a big problem during the snow/ice fiasco since the trains/buses not running meant many employees felt they had no requirement to report without a way to reach the office. DART HQ does have its own parking garage, but I actually see more DART vehicles going in and out when I walk by to the Y than private vehicles.

Now why someoneone not in a DART uniform is driving a DART vehicle into the office at 6:45 AM might be another story.