Urban or Suburban living
 

I wanted to open up a thread to discuss the pros and cons of an urban growth boundary. The case study of the UGB is of course Portland where the urbanized area has increased in size by 2 percent while the population increased 50 percent. A UGB is basically a line on a map where only truly rural development is allowed past it.

It would have to be the council of governments that makes that decision, and it would have to have a planning law passed by the state legislature(which I put the chances at near 0).

I think the UGB shuld extend roughly north of US 380, south to the proposed loop 9, West to the tarrant county line, and to the east roughly around Rockwall. Those are just relative, and can be changed when needed. While it would be impressive for the metroplex to reach into Oklahoma; is that what we really want to happen? There is plenty of available land without turning Melissa and Van Alstyne into another Plano.

Housing costs may increase, but is the standard boring subdivision really what we want to see subsidized?

Sounds like a great idea, but I don't see it happening in Texas. more likely Dallas than anywhere else here, but, still...

I'd defintly be in for supporting anything regarding this, though, even if it all came to naught.

I wish something could be done. What happened to America where hour plus commutes are acceptable? I know several that do it. Do people that live out there love it, or do we have lots of guys like the one I saw on "While You Were Out" The wife went on and on about how she chose the house way out in the 'burbs for her children's safety, and a nice neighborhood, but her husband hated the place, and did it for her. She wouldn't say why until the finished product was revealed. It was to make their home look like a townhome inside. Turns out he's a.) really pissed to be living so far from his work and b.) Has had some racial trouble with his neighbors with him being the only Morocan(sp?) c.)thinks the neighborhood is dull compared to the place they had before. Got me wondering if sprawl is a gender issue as well. I say that from growing up there, and seeing lots of divorced fathers move to the city. Any thoughts on such an idea? Please don't pelt me with bananas ladies!!! :p

i think anyone who drives more than 15 miles to work is a fool. i used to drive 30, felt like i was spending my whole life on I35. these people only have themselves to blame. i had a friend who worked in the telecom area of richardson and was building a house in anna. i said to him dude there are some great places to live in richardson, he said it was only 15 minute drive (no way thats right) and i can tell you what will happen. he will get stuck living up there bc his kids are in school and then have a 45 minute or 1 hour commute every day for 15 years. good god please spare me that fate.

Recent news stories have said that more and more people are finding this commuting lifestyle acceptable and more common! I cannot imagine doing for the rest of my LIFE!

Garrett,

if you don't mind me asking, I wonder if you are married and/or have children and how living downtown works out for you in this regard. if you do not currently have children, do you intend to someday? and if so, where do you foresee yourself and family living?

I know where you are going here. I am not married but am engaged. Will stay in DT for a couple more years for sure. We intend to have children. Assuming I still have the same job, I could easily forsee us living in Grand Prairie, Irving, Garland, Carrolton, or Arlington. We both love the city though, so we'll have to weigh all of our options accordingly.

As for my previous comment, I made the drive from Lake Arlington to Addison for over a year. I hated it and will never forget that. I had a real hard time justifying spending 2 1/2 to 3 hours a day on the road.......when I had an office job. Anyhoo, we'll see I guess.

I know you are in school, but what about yourself? Or anyone else for that matter.

i automatically assumed that you aslo work downtown, is this right?

i myself do not ever intend to have children, but if i did, wherever i lived i would make every effort to live 'in-town.' i would never want my children to be raised in the suburbs.

yes and I agree completely!

You gotta be making some serious dough to be able to support a family and live intown.

I don't have kids or a wife. I've often wondered about a true breakdown of how life the economics would break down. I grew up on the edge of Garland when Rowlett was really booming and most of upper middle class Garland was moving there. The excess being spent was crazy, and so were the attitudes. I remember a friend's mom buying the biggest damn minivan you've ever seen and only had 2 kids. Everyone was competing over who had the biggest or best pool to the extent they closed a really nice community pool. Everyone was upgrading the interior materials of their homes like crazy so their house was the fanciest inside. Everyone wanted to get their kid the nicest car and best clothes. There were yard competitions, so people would buy crazy yard equipment, fertilizers and sprinkler systems. People were even competing to get the most TV channels out of cable or satellite. Back then it was normal suburban life. Just the way life was. American consumerism at it's greatest. The way I thought I wanted to live.

Looking back though, I can see the extreme excess that was going on. The long distances driven. The high cost of daycare. The extreme quiet that everyone wanted in the neighborhood. The neighborhood crimewatch that was credited for giving Garland the designation of Safest City in America for a couple of years. What were they watching for?

This all changed when I went to college. I went to UT in Austin and lived in an apartment 2 blocks from campus. Not New York urban, but more urban than life is here in Dallas. I walked everywhere. I even got my dad's truck to use while I was down there. He gave it to me with 28,000 miles in 1 1/2 year. I returned it to him with 37,000 in 3 years to his bewilderment. He couldn't figure out I was walking and riding Cap Metro everywhere. I was living urban and didn't know it. I just enjoyed it, and it was so much cheaper than my sister was living up in P-fluger, though my rent, bills, insurance and car payments were higher. I must return to that life. It definitely kept me in better shape and better communication with the ladies, hehe. Plus no mowing yards, edging yards, raking leaves, etc Having experienced that vs suburban life I have to question which would truly be most expensive. DISD issue aside (because I know super-successful recent DISD products, and trust their programs to adequately educate) I wouldn't mind seeing some universities investigating the matter.

Suburbanites don't like my type :(

While living in NYC I met lots of people who worked in Manhattan, but lived in NJ, Conn. and Penn. People also lived in New York state several counties to the north and in the two outer counties on Long Island. All in all 20 million people live in the metopolitan area.

Many of these people had one to two hour commutes by train.


I guess my point is that no matter how great the urban core is, some people will be always willing to trade commute time for a lower residential cost per square foot.

I'm beginning to think that, eventually, there will be something almost equivallent to the 'urban growth boundry', only not forced. Yes, DFW is growing rapidly to the north. But there is also alot of steam starting to build up back in the center cities and even some to the south. Once the south gets more developed, people that have 2 hour commutes by car to downtown dallas, or other places in a southerly direction, will see that for an equivallent cost they can live 10 minute south of downtown. Then growth will begin in that direction and slow up in the north. The same thingwill happen with east dallas, only, less so because most people living in the area between Dallas and Fort Worth do so for DFW airport and access to both cities. So, in all likelihood, a hundred years from now the metroplex will have evened out of its own accord and the 'marvelous capitalist spirit'.

Optomistic, yes. Idealistic, yes. But it seems to be that the aforesaid paragraph is the logical progression of the suburbanite mindset. Thankfully, that progression will also likely lead to revitalization in the urban areas because of a balace of people around it.

DowntownBum,

Ok. I am fool. I really like my job. I really like where i live. I don't neccesarily like driving that far. My Job is very stable, so i drive.

I enjoy listening to the radio in the car. I typically don't listen to the radio at home. I catch up on sports with KTCK and 103.3 or listen to CDs like U2.

But if i find a better job in Fort Worth, that will be great. But until then you can visit me going down 635 around 7am and 5am.

My view of downtown living is like living in a concrete jungle. No Trees. No landscape. Just bums, drunks, pigeons, and concrete. Its just not beautiful in a downtown area, IMO

But i do think there needs to be some type of urban boundary. But i don't think it will happen because urban sprawl its not what draws money.

well you left out the most important marketing concepts of the neo-urbanist......you are killing the earth and I say this is a better way for YOU to live YOUR life

I mean surely all these neo-urbanist calling YOU living in YOUR suburban house with possible amenities like tennis, golf, neighborhood pools and parks or even a golf course boring and cookie cutter makes you just want to sell for a loss and then pay more for less sqft in a condo (with the same exact cookie cutter layout as hundreds of others in the building) that has high monthly fees tacked on for a laundry and dry cleaning service or some other mandatory must have amenities so your kids can then play in a public park across from a homeless shelter

mocking you for lawn work (the lawn where your kids and pets play and where you socialize with the neighbors) should just make you want to put a for sale sign in the yard immediately and move to a building where not only are you really not in control of ANY of your investment or the cost of maintaining it because unlike if a neighbors house or even houses run down in a subdivision where you can still be in control of your own property....in a condo you are at the mercy of how many and who lives in the building for ANY of it to be maintained

even worse is someone that lives in DALLAS Texas aygriffith making fun of people for being pressured for "status reasons" to move to suburbia.......when only a clueless dolt would not know that A. dallas is status that is ALL it has ever been and B. the whole neo-urbanist movement is a stupid status movement wrapped around "see I care more" and "see I know how to live better than you" and "see I can pay more for less than you"

neo-urbanist have to be some of the silliest and most annoying people out there.....void of the reality that ALL jobs in a large metro area are not within the inner loop, void of the concept that high rises cost more to build and there for to own, void of the concept that some people ENJOY a yard and other suburban amenities especially in a sunbelt city, many people like a yard of their own for their kids and pets especially so their kids don't have to play in a park being watched by them 24-7 because of the homeless wondering that same park, void of the idea that in all the places they love so much and want dallas to be like it is still a status symbol to live in a high rise building and that MOST people do not live in those, and void of the concept that those places only grew that way because they were constrained for space "dallas is not)

how thick does one have to be to NOT understand that trying to tell someone to pay WAY MORE per sqft, to live in a place where you only have control of what is inside your front door, where you are surrounded ALL DAY EVERY DAY by the hustle and bustle of downtown and the urban environment, where the schools are of poorer quality unless you are willing to play the magnet school games, and where the amenities like a grocery store, affordable restaurant, or other shopping and retail are less....is just an asinine argument to most people with common sense

especially when your entire REAL argument is "I know what is better for you than you do" and if you scoff at that you will be hit with "boring, cookie cutter, sterile, closer to downtown, status comments, white flight sneers, poor economic "reasonings" , and general idiocy".......from a bunch of people that spend their time crying on a message board because even the spartan offerings of WAY over priced things in the area they CHOOSE to live in are shutting down.....or were never built......all the while wondering how they can force or why others CHOOSE not.....to live the way they do......even though it cost more for most and for many offers way less in the way of what they consider quality of life

people like yards, people like garages, many people hate elevators, or parking garages, or carrying your groceries from a garage to an elevator to your condo especially with kids in tow, people like pets and a yard for them, people like to get away from major streets running right in front of where they live or the homeless......people work at Alliance, and DFW, and in Frisco....living downtown for a higher price with a longer commute does not work for them....you would have to be anumb skull to not understand this

people like to BBQ in their own yard....with the pets playing with the kids in their own pool....VS BBQing with the homeless and your pets being chased by others loose pets that were chasing your kids.....especially when it COST LESS to have the house with the yard.....most people in Texas understand fees for trash pickup, neighborhood park maintenance, neighborhood pool upkeep.....but they have no interest in parking garage repairs, elevator repairs, exterior glass repairs.....especially when those fees usually cost WAY more than them keeping up theirOWN property with its own yard, pool, garage, and privacy

no wonder these projects actually get started before they fail......because there are so many forums like these filled by the same few people all blowing smoke up each others asses and making up half truths, lies and just stupidity to try and explain why people won't pay more to live like they want them to live....when often it makes so much less sense for the people they are pointing a finger at

is it really that hard for many of you to get over the idea that people are not listening to you, you have been wrong for decades on your ideas of what people will CHOOSE, and it seems you will continue to be wrong for at least a few more.....especially when all your grand projects are FAILING all around while the suburbs may struggle, but still continue onward with many people perfectly happy with what they got for the price they paid

why are there no forums full of suburbanites lamenting the fact that people choose to pay more for a condo, there are no homeless in their areas, their regular public schools are too competitive, the grocery store and the mall are too close, the restaurants in their area are too inexpensive, and their yard had to be mowed

I would say it is probably because those people MADE A CHOICE AND ARE HAPPY WITH IT AND ARE BUSY DOING WHAT EVER IT IS THAT WAS THE REASON THEY CHOOSE TO LIVE WHERE THEY DO.....instead of crying on the interweb about how no one wants to live like them and how can we force them to and something near me that was over priced just closed down

you make YOUR choice......please stop using your stupid flawed logic to make up fantasy I know better than you stupid reasons why others choose different.......and especially good God......making ANY argument about doing something for "status" in dallas.......you must be brain dead :uhoh: :drool:

As usual, you make some very valid points in a very inflammatory way...

That being said, I think that you are being unfair to some of the posters here. While these folks have been screaming for more affordable urban projects, what has come to market has been product that prices out most of the folks who would enjoy the "urban lifestyle". I would imagine that it is frustrating to them to see all of this high-priced product come online which is geared to folks who generally are at a point in their lives where a more suburban style of living is preferable.

I understand that high-rises are expensive to build and therefore must be expensive to sell. That's where I think that a lot of developers have missed the boat. We didn't need 15 new towers in the central city. VP and Uptown could have flourished with low to mid-rise buildings that were cheaper to construct and priced more moderately. If you are going to blame anyone for trying to force a lifestyle on people, blame the developers. Afterall, they are the ones who actually build the projects. If they weren't smart enough to do some actual market research to put out a product that people in Dallas would want to buy, you can't blame the folks on here for bitching about it.

wow, glad you don't feel too strong about this subject.

A actually agree with some of your points but your understanding about the new Urbanist movement is off base on a number of points --- in fact too many to even go into. I suggest you look it up... it even includes ideas that would make the suburbs work better.

Since we've been paying so little for gasoline over the last year or so, everyone's forgotten what a pain it is to drive anywhere. As the economy recovers, so will gasoline prices, and people will start to LOVE that new Green Line and want to live downtown again.

Anyway, how about that Hard Rock Cafe?

I am just going to go ahead and nominate this for the best post ever on this forum. It really deserves to be in its own thread. Moderators?

Anyway, my only criticism would be that you left out some points about cars, and that people love the freedom they provide and that they aren't all going to flock to mass-transit when the oil supplies get short (not any time soon, reserves are at historic levels) and too expensive. We are going to see Hybrids, electric, alternative fuels, et al. long before we are going to see public transit usage levels like Europe or Japan.

The fact is Americans, especially those in the Sunbelt where the land is cheap and plentiful, want their own home with a big yard, and their own mode of transportation that can take them wherever they want to go. And, they are willing to do anything to get it. I would argue that the housing crisis/Recession was driven by this. People who thought there was no way they could afford all that (house, yard) were suddenly told that "yes you can have it, we've got these fancy new types of loans where its possible." Turns out their original intuition was correct.

Once again, great post.

While I find you post hard to read, I don't think I was making fun of anyone. I was just citing some interesting conversations I've seen directed at some of the younger guys in the office when they're promoted. I've also had others in the same industries that I work with say they've experienced similar conversations.

I don't know how to live better than you... or anyone in Dallas. I'm not saying it crazy to move to the suburbs, but for it to be pushed as a office mandate? I do know better than you do about how I like to live though. SO while you enjoy green yards and little Bowser running around in the backyard, I find it difficult to wrap my life around it. I'm on the road 40 weeks of the year for work and then another 4 or 5 weeks of vacation I ususally spend out the house/home/apt. I actually own a little over 600 acres separated over about 3 farms in the beautiful bluegrass of Northern Kentucky. Via a trainer, I'm a gentleman breeder of a small collection of Standardbred Horses. If I'm not in Dallas, I'm often up there on the weekends and for vacation. I absolutely appreciate the idea of land ownership and controlling your surroundings.

But its totally incorrect to say you are in control of your property and its value anywhere you have a neighbor. If I own the lot next to you in Frisco and paint my house purple and get rid of the grass and switch to rocks (I don't have time to water... big commitment, right?) there isn't a damn thing you can do and you'll probably see your property devalue just based on being next to mine. And if you don't have a homeowners association to stop me...

The Neo-Urbanist movement does have alot of self-righteous propagandist. A few of them used to post on here. But the suburban movement has an equal amount of people that preach of the horrors that happen inside of Loop 12. You ever mention "Oak Cliff" to someone in Frisco? They think you're about to talk about a shooting or crime. In reality there are some suprisingly nice areas that don't belong attached to those suburan misconceptions.

Just as you went on and on and I stopped reading after the 3rd or 4th blurb, I could go on and on too. Not with Neo-Urbanism hate of the suburbs but more around the suburban disconnect from their neighborhood and surroundings. I'd rather live in a urban area and know the people around me and have a neighborhood feel or I'd move back to a small town where I would also know most everyone around me and have a community connection.

As for the Hard Rock... Well its a very tired concept. Lately, I think they close more of their stores than they open if you count their stores at the end of the year. The most successful properties are tied to their hotels. I believe most of their hotels are casinos though in the US. We'll see. I hope for the best. Anything to get people to Victory is helpful. I don't think the orignal concepts of Grocery Store/Winery would have survived even 90 days due to the lack of people in the neighborhood and an even smaller amount that would shop in that environment.

Someone, just remember... half the battle of convincing others of you views is the tone in which you talk to them. I don't think you're going to win many followers with you blast on anything over two stories and disgust for any of those who are proud of the neighborhood of DT/UT/Victory that many of us live in. Dallas already has the least proud group of residents I've ever encountered... I often think many people's disconnect and lack of pride in Dallas is due to the disconnect they encounter in their neighborhoods. The suburbs have little pride for their own suburbs and they care even less for the city that facilitated the creation of that suburb.

Totally.

I'm pretty sure we already have a thread for this topic, ummm, something like "Pro suburban lifestyle hyperbole to counter the prolific Mystical Urban lifestyle hyperbole" but until there's time to sift the lifestyle preference theme from the Hard Rock Cafe thread, both topics can run concurrantly.

The Cul-de-Sac Syndrome
 

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unf..._pittsburgh.php

Dallas, So Much Like Pittsburgh
By Robert Wilonsky in News You Can Actually Use, Actually, The Unfair Park Book ClubWednesday, Jun. 24 2009 @ 2:51PM
We're awaiting our very copy of John F. Wasik's new book Cul-de-Sac Syndrome: Turning Around the Unsustainable American Dream, due to arrive shortly, in which he documents how the housing boom went bust and how walkable cities died a slow death, surprise surprise. And while Dallas and the surrounding suburbs don't get much mention in the tome, the city does show up on a surprising list called, ahem, "Surprise Cities," which are identified as metropolises that are "primed for some growth and offer multiple amenties." Also on the list: Salt Lake City, Pittsburgh, Minneapolis-St. Paul, Kansas City-St. Louis, Birmingham and Des Moines, so we've got that going for us, which is nice. Wasik also references "the ring of overdeveloped towns surrounding Dallas" in this just-posted essay about how we need to kill the "spurbs," damn right.
24 comment(s) / Post a Comment

Too bad the high gas prices did not stick around for another 6 months last year. That would have killed Frisco, McKinney, Prosper. Still don't see how those suburbs can keep their engines going.

The price of gas would have to quadruple before it would have any significant impact on outward movement. The drivers for outward movement are more home for your dollar and the public schools. Since nothing fundamental has changed, the movement will continue. Don't read problems in real estate at outer edges as signs of a reversal. Those areas had all the growth. When growth ceased, those areas quite reasonably felt the greatest impact. When overall growth returns, those areas will once again have the overwhelming share of it.

The bottom line is the so-called central cities are really not central to the majority of the population. Nothing will reverse that displacement. Jobs, entertainment, wealth and especially power have left the city and are not returning. Coming from a very rural area, I can't see how we can call a city like Plano or Frisco as a suburb. These municipalities are huge cities in their own right and simply don't need Dallas city. As full-fledged cities, they will evolve and will likely incorporate some of the walkable features discussed. But becoming more dense like Dallas does not mean ceding the dominant role in the future of the metroplex to Dallas.

We can and should make Dallas urban core a nice neighborhood. But that's all it will be is nice neighborhood. These continued hopes that someday downtown or old urban areas will rule again are fantasies, much like monarchists looking forward to restoration of the Bourbons every time the democratic government has a problem. The revolution is over; we lost. How the suburbs will evolve I can't say. But they won't devolve.

such a simpleton...

there is every chance high gas prices could have killed downtown further Vs helping it.....many companies could have switched to home offices, partial home/shared downtown, or even shared/small office pods spread around town in cheap strip center offices VS expensive high rise office space

time and again through history we see the unplanned end result of the simpleton leftist theory of "make it cost more and everyone will behave like I want them to" when the reality is people innovate, recreate, work around, and beat the "tax them to think like me" theory so often that you would think anyone, but the most dense, would have given up on it by now

there is EVERY chance that large companies would have moved away from the large central office concept to smaller offices scattered around town or to work from home or partial from home with a reduction in total office space needed....not to mention all the smaller companies and individuals that could just decide to not have an office or move to where the majority of workers would be closer

please

1. try and accept the REALITY that people don't live the way you would like them to live because they CHOOSE to live they way they prefer to live......VS the way you prefer them to live....in so much as the "I know what is best for your life" crowd feels there is some vast conspiracy to fool or trick people into living in a way they really deep down don't want to live instead of living the way the few informed that frequent this forum know is the best way to live.....one could just as easily say the vast conspiracy is actually the "I know what is best for your life crowd".....they are the ones trying to take tax dollars for direct subsidies for housing.....they are the ones cheering for crippling energy prices.....they are the ones for the "tax them to live like me" theory of government

2. you can hope and wish and dream for high energy prices all you wish......you can try your "tax them into submission"....but the reality is people that have that mentality are easily outsmarted constantly by those they try and persuade through anything other than offering a choice and the freedom to choose

3. suburban people don't care how you live......people like you seem obsessed with how suburban people live......you need to get a life.....mix some reality into it as well please

4. you and those like you and your stereotypes of the suburbs make you sound even more unreasonable and silly.....which gives sensible people all the more reason to not want to live around you or those that think and vote like you do....because you waste a lot of money, time, and energy trying to force people to live a certain way.....or to find acceptable behaviors they would rather not deal with day in and day out....eve if you feel that makes them "sheltered" or "not cultured"

5. you and those that think like you killed dallas with your thinking......leave everyone else alone stop wishing misery upon them as if they would revisit your proven failed ideas of living VS doing something new and inventive to maintain a lifestyle they prefer.......you have your area for lifestyle experimentation.....let the suburbs have theirs......they seem happy....why aren't you

*scratches head*

The forum just blew my mind.

I'd love to see the numbers behind that theory. Sure, I guess that some could move to a telecommuting model, but that would be more as a service for the employees who are having to pay for the gas (also, that would hurt office space everywhere). Aside from that though, the price of gas is not negatively correlated with the value of downtown office space. Actually, it should be somewhat positively correlated because as gas prices move up, people move closer to the urban core, and more conveniently located offices have an advantage.

No, they move closer to where the jobs are -- and that's no longer downtown Dallas.

I'm pretty sure the Dallas Central Business District still hosts the largest employment center in North Texas, as well the most concentrated. Additionally, employment centers adjacent/contiguous to the CBD (e.g. Uptown, Stemmons Corridor, UTSW-Parkland, Citiplace) create a super employment center unrivaled in North Texas. While suburban office parks have registered an impressive rate of growth, the diversity, volume and overall accessibility cannot and will not compare to the Central business district.

I was actually thinking of the entire uptown/downtown area which is connected with public transportation. I'd love to know how the similiarly sized areas in the metroplex that offer as many jobs. Do they exist in Rockwall? Cedar Hill? Irving? Arlington? Northern Ft Worth? There are very few such areas in the metroplex, and uptown/downtown Dallas would have a major advantage over those areas due to rail.

Please see see page six of this pdf posted by Marky to understand where office jobs in North Texas are....

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/s...2&postcount=234

Note that more than half of the listed office space for the primary North Texas employment centers are within Dallas city limits, and that more than half of the listed office space among Dallas employment centers is concentrated in Central Dallas - CBD / Uptown / Turtle Creek / Stemmons / Central Eway.....

People move to outlying suburban neighborhoods are willing to accept a longer commute as trade for a larger living space.

Dallas
Workers who live and work in this city: 350,745 (65.3%)
http://www.city-data.com/city/Dallas-Texas.html

Plano
Workers who live and work in this city: 45,280 (38.1%)
http://www.city-data.com/city/Plano-Texas.html

Frisco
Workers who live and work in this city: 3,284 (18.2%)
http://www.city-data.com/city/Frisco-Texas.html

Arlington
Workers who live and work in this city: 67,185 (39.0%)
http://www.city-data.com/city/Arlington-Texas.html

:thumbsup: Interesting. That would explain the traffic patterns. I just assumed everyone was working the night shift. :not_ripe:

DID YOU KNOW:

Frisco and McKinney are far out as Fort Worth?

Offering telecommuting started as an employee benefit, but now firms use it as a space reduction tool. It's particularly rewarding the further you go up the exec food chain because those individuals require greater space per person.

If the commutes became extremely expensive, eventually the firms would move outward to some point that is more centrally located. I don't know where center of mass for the residences of white collar workers in DFW is, but it's not within CBD. If the office workers were spread radially around Dallas like perhaps Atlanta. then maybe CBD might make its case as the location that reduces time waste. The almost total avoidance by managerial office workers of South Dallas as a residence shifts the moment arm north.

That thought is just silly. For 1, putting the office space in a central location does little to alleviate the main problems which are traffic congestion (actually, it would likely worsen that). Sure, it would be a bit closer, but if gas prices went way up people aren't going to want to commute much at all. For 2, if gas prices went up, the primary group that would be affected are the employees, not the employers. For 3, employers are generally in long term leases and are not quick to move from location to location. Thus, in all likelihood it is the employees that would move closer to the businesses moreso than vice versa.

Regardless, high transportation costs will push people to value location moreso than unit-size. Thus density becomes more ideal, and the main employment areas would be those locations where density can be created. Obviously CBD would benefit from this.

This isn't even taking into account the demographic shift that has happened with people getting married at a later age (this shift probably hasn't been as great in Dallas as in the Northeast, and Cali), combined with the desire for young people to be near the nightlife. In normal economic conditions, businesses that want to attract top young talent (under 35) are at a major disadvantage if they are in the burbs. This is obviously a shift from the way things were 15+ years ago.

People will hold on to the schools for their children and existing homes to the exclusion of almost everything else. If they need to buy cheaper cars, car pool, stop eating out, cancel vacations, get a part time job, then that is what they will do. They will only move if all else fails.

I'm not saying areas won't become denser and homes smaller. I reject the assumption that density will automatically occur within CBD to the exclusion of the suburbs. Why wouldn't it occur in Plano, Carrolton, Mesquite? Dallas does not have any particular advantages and labors under several significant disadvantages.

Is there any real evidence in 2009, excluding low level clerical work force that probably has to ride the bus, that firms in the Dallas suburbs have difficulty recruiting in comparison to firms in the city for any age group? Iif someone wanted to be near nightlife, he or she would be more likely live in Addison than the city.

LOL! Yes actually I did know this and I'll tell you why. I've looked at distances for the sheer fact that many people I work with think because I live in Arlington that I drive such a FAR distance. This is coming from people I work with who live in Frisco, McKinney, Plano, etc. I always tell them all I have to do is hop on 30 and it's a straight shot from there. I work off 35 and Market Center btw, so when it comes down to it I'm about equidistant or closer than people I work with.

You know... once upon a time you typed a 1000 word essay post on how I was off the deep end and didn't know fact from reality. And while it was without basis, since I think you disagreed on a single sentence which was taken out of context. I agree with most all of what you've said about the pro-urban do as i say (and in this forum... not as i do. Since many of you live in single family homes)

And the kicker is, I live in Downtown. I dislike the suburbs because of my lifestyle, I could care less if everyone in Frisco suddenly moves to Dallas. But I disagree with the fact that the suburban folk don't like to focus on people who live downtown. I usually get a lecture or get 15 minutes worth of sarcastic comments when I meet people my age who live in the suburbs and find out I don't. Because clearly I'm middle aged and should own a single family home, OR if I really want to rent I should rent in Irving, Frisco, Lewisville, etc etc etc. I like single family homes, I just don't want to own one, I've done it before its a pain in the ass if you're not always there.

The liberal urban elite in this forum aren't going to side with your Laissez Faire method of urban and suburban population centers. Good Luck! I enjoy reading responses to your posts, although I recommend you get to the point quicker.

So, three threads have been merged together.

#1) Urban Growth Boundary - posts 1 through 15;

#2) Extracted posts from the Hard Rock Cafe returns thread - posts 16 through 22;

#3) The Cul-de-Sac Syndrome - posts 23 through 40.

All three of these threads had the common theme touching on why people chose to live where they do.

I'm certain the forum has many other threads which directly relate to this topic, and if anyone runs across a good candidate to be merged this one, please let me or one of the other moderators know.

Oh, ya, also... please don't be tempted to let this turn into a Suburban versus Urban versus Suburb versus City game of name calling and hyperbole.

Anyone gotta better title for this thread?

Some people will hold on to particular school systems and some won't. Thus a shift. BTW, I never stated that it would occur to the exclusion of the suburbs.

As for evidence of difficulty in recruiting..are you joking? It's common sense. Very few students from top law or business schools want to work/live out in BFE suburbia. They generally want to be close to the bars, restaurants, nightlife etc. Once they establish a family, then suburbia has something to offer.

I've seen it myself in Austin where companies lose top talent time and time again to competitors because they are located in West Austin rather than downtown. Sure, a Fortune 500 type company that would have a hard time retaining top talent regardless may do fine in suburbia, but top financial, law, and consulting firms are much better positioned in the city.

I think it's interesting that this is brought up. The first home I ever bought 15 years ago with One-Ex was in East Plano. I knew all about Plano because my dad lived there (and Allen too) for a good while when I was a kid up until my sophomore year in high school. Only, Pops lived in West Plano. But even 15 years ago, Parker Road and Avenue K was a modest little working class neighborhood with a bunch of old people and young (white) families. Today it looks alot like parts of East Dallas and every time I talk to racist One-Ex, all she can do is complain about how those "spics" (see, she's so stupid that she can't even get the racial epithets right, I mean, a "spic" doesn't really apply in Texas, duh!) have ruined the neighborhood, east Plano, all of Plano, etc. You know, PESH has really started to go downhill since all those "spics" moved in with the gangs and pregnant girlfriends and they can't even speak English...

The point is, even in suburban Plano there exists something that some look at as not belonging (new cultures) and thus denigrates the neighborhood, in much the same way as can be said for parts of East Dallas, Oak Cliff, etc., and some embrace (new cultures) as adding to a rich quality of life. Perhaps more people inside the 635 loop can embrace it more readily than those in suburbia. The "shift" is appreciable, even in suburbia. Used to be, when I was growing up, that Richardson and Farmers Branch were "nice" suburbs. Now they are called "inner ring" suburbs, which is just code for a crummy suburb that you don't want to live in, not if you have a lick of sense.

I don't understand why this whole conversation of urban vs suburban even exists. Dallas is incredibly suburban by nature. In my little neighborhood in South Dallas, just five miles from downtown with a glimmering view of the skyline from my front porch, I can't walk anywhere to get to anything I need or want, not even the damn liquor store, which we have in abundance in my city council district. Just rows and rows of neat and tidy little old houses on streets that were too far flung back in the day to have even had streetcars running on them. No grocery within walking distance, no cleaners, no sidewalk cafes, no neighborhood bar, nothing but a few parks in which to throw ball at the dog. No, I need to get in my car and drive to where I need to get to. But my neighborhood is considered "urban".

Now, contrast this with the neighborhood in St. Louis that my best friend from college grew up in: lots of brownstones, lots of people walking around, a corner grocery with an apartment on top, across the street a corner bar, again with an apartment on top, around the corner a shoe store, then a deli across from that. And brownstones all in between. Now that's a true "urban" neighborhood and no where do we have that in Dallas, nowhere, not even downtown. Lots of other cities do, especially the ones east of the Mississippi and a few west of it too, but by-and-large, not in the great swath on the country in between the two coasts, and not a whole lot of it on the west coast. This is what people mean when they say that Dallas is "suburban" in nature. It is. So, people in Plano are stupid to eschew the "big city" of Dallas, just as downtown dwellers are stupid to defend the "urban lifestyle". We just ain't got it here.

^ I'm not sure St. Louis is the city that we should try emulating.

As for suburbs, my grandparents bought a house in Highland Park because they couldn't afford a house in Cockrell Hill. True story.

What kind of firms provide the evidence of difficulty in recruiting: manufacturing,energy, chemical, electronics, shipping, medical practice, education, telecommunications, software, construction, transportation firms or some fringe firms in the so-called creative class? I expect if your only business was wrapped around presentation that a "cool" downtown location might be important. Otherwise, it means little.

You seem to have a very weak grasp of how the office market works. Interestingly enough, tenants are willing to pay 32% more in DFW for Class A office space than Class B office space. Furthermore, the rates for class A office space in uptown/turtle creek are 34.5% higher than in the metroplex as a whole.

Have fun in your nice suburban job where you get to look out your window at a massive parking lot and are able to enjoy great lunches at Chili's and Macaroni Grill. You only spend like 1/3rd of your time at work. I guess it's not that important.

ROTFL!

Exactly - it was not until HP Judge Taylor excluded HPISD from the DISD desegregation suit that the values skyrocketed and almost all the original housing stock was torn down. Some folks on here get mad at me for saying that but it's true.

There used to be some semi-middle class types living there and some of houses were actually in disrepair.

I had a math teacher who lived on Normandy.

What about Chotchkie's or Flingers? :D