Corps of Engineers: Trinity River levees "unacceptable"

[RobertB]

This just in, more coming soon:

Corps of Engineers rates Dallas Trinity River levees unacceptable
3:45 PM Tue, Feb 24, 2009
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/02/corps-of-engineers-rates-dalla.html

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers has just delivered a bombshell to the city of Dallas, rating the integrity of the Trinity River levees unacceptable in a draft 2009 inspection report .

The rating means that Dallas' primary flood protection, the massive berms of earth that run along the Trinity floodway, do not meet current standards set out by the corps after the disaster of Hurricane Katrina in 2006.

"It means that some of the items of our levee system must be fixed and on others we must do further testing and analysis to determine if they need mitigation," city manager Mary Suhm wrote in a memo to council members.

Suhm, Mayor Tom Leppert and top corps officials plan a press conference at 4 p.m. to discuss the findings.
The report goes on to describe "increasing tension between the corps and the city" over the Trinity Tollway. But a finding of "unacceptable" doesn't sound like the Corps is all that enthusiastic about the idea. That's something that should probably be discussed at length in the Trinity Tollway thread.

I'm concerned about something more immediate, myself. If our levees are officially "unacceptable", what does that mean for the hundreds of square miles they protect? I kinda like Downtown Dallas, and I'd rather not experience the Katrina effect first-hand.

[JohnMcKee]

I know what we should do, we should put a tollway inside our already unacceptable levees that costs more then a billion dollars that we don't have. That will help the situation and not just increase the problem with the displacement of the tollway, associated facilities and higher flow rate in the event of a flood.

[LH_Newbie]

Who is responsible for paying to upgrade the levees so they are acceptable? Is this a Federal thing, a state thing or a local thing?

[AndyIvey]

What does the state of the levee have to do with the planned tollway? If anything, the tollway would be delayed while they figure out how and when the levees will be improved. I don't see how it represents any Corps opinion on the tollway. In fact, any Corps objection to the tollway is about specific aspects ofthe proposed design. It isn't like they're against infrastructure improvements around levees as a whole.

[RobertB]

What does the state of the levee have to do with the planned tollway? If anything, the tollway would be delayed while they figure out how and when the levees will be improved. I don't see how it represents any Corps opinion on the tollway. In fact, any Corps objection to the tollway is about specific aspects ofthe proposed design. It isn't like they're against infrastructure improvements around levees as a whole.
But infrastructure improvements INSIDE levees -- I don't think that's the sort of thing that gives them the warm fuzzies. Anything you put in there is (as noted above) a displacement of water. Every gallon of water displaced by something between the levees is another gallon the levees have to hold.

Imagine building a few towers of bricks in your bathtub for your rubber duckie to swim around... now imagine putting a full bathtub's worth of water in there. Oopsie!

But really, that part of the discussion is better suited to the Trinity River Tollway (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=7326) thread. What I want to know is what LH_Newbie asked: Who is responsible for the *existing* levee system, never mind the tollway. Who do we need to light a fire under? 'Cause if *our* levees break, it's going to make Katrina's visit to New Orleans look like a leaky pipe under the sink.

[trolleygirl]

I think the Corps is responsible for the existing levee system.

I have to say, at least we can see something positive from the drought, that we don't have to worry about flood events for a few years....

[xen0blue]

I really hope they fix this. Any improvements to the Trinity corridor need to take a back seat to levee improvements.

[mrowl]

I think the Corps is responsible for the existing levee system.

I have to say, at least we can see something positive from the drought, that we don't have to worry about flood events for a few years....

according to the WFAA report last night, the City of St. Louis had to spend $150M to fix their levees.

[electricron]

The time to strengthen the levees is while you're building the Parkway. You're going to have heavy earth moving equipment there anyways.

Follow up news story http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-trinity_25met.ART0.State.Edition1.4c5e030.html
Excerpts:
The findings released Tuesday will also trigger a new federal review of the city's flood risk, which could mean higher insurance rates for property owners in the Trinity's flood zone and more roadblocks to other development.
The corps inspected 170 aspects of the levees in late 2007, and found 34 "unacceptable." City officials said they learned of the findings only this week and have scrambled to make sense of a draft of the report, which won't be finalized until March 31 or later. The problems highlighted in the report range from small flaws that can be almost immediately addressed to larger ones that could involve substantial changes.
NTTA chairman Paul Wageman said his agency will press ahead with design work. "We're going to move forward with a design, do everything we can to hew to the deadline and by the May or June time frame have it to the corps so they can walk it through their process," he said. "That's going to be our focus. This is an issue that the city needs to address with the corps."
The May design deadline is critical because the corps must still decide whether the roadway will interfere with the city's flood protection. It can't make that decision until at least 30 percent of the road's design is done. Brig. Gen Kendall Cox, commander of the corps' Southwest division, and others said it's too early to tell what impact Tuesday's decision will have on the corps' review of those issues.
Morris noted that work already done on the toll road could actually help make resolving problems with the levees easier. "If we weren't thinking adding a transportation solution near the levees, we wouldn't have all that data that we have collected," he said.
Now that the 34 items have been rated unacceptable, the corps and city engineers will inspect each one more thoroughly to determine what must be done to remove each flaw.
"Some of the items may turn out to be 'unacceptable' but it's possible some may not," Leppert said in prepared statements. "But let me be clear – if something is confirmed to unacceptable, we are committed to fixing it."
The corps has been busy inspecting hundreds of levees across the country since Hurricane Katrina's devastation of New Orleans. About 240 levees across America have flunked.

[RobertB]

I'm sure the timing of things will be a hot topic in the Trinity Tollway thread, but there's an article in USA Today that notes that the Trinity River Levee is just one of 114 levees nationwide that achieved "unacceptable" status in the Corps' nationwide review. It looks like the Corps was simply putting everything together for a big announcement.

Army Corps cracks down on flunking levees (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-02-23-levees_N.htm)

One key paragraph:

"The corps will alert the Federal Emergency Management Agency to poorly maintained levees. If states and communities cannot certify to FEMA that those levees will handle a 100-year flood — one that has a 1% chance of hitting each year — owners of property behind them may have to buy flood insurance."

How much do you think flood insurance will cost for the American Airlines Center or Reunion Tower? Ouch.

[gshelton91]

wonder if this is where the extra money for the toll way is going to come from...

[dfwcre8tive]

Dallas council member Mitchell Rasansky fears repairs to Trinity levees could cost more than $1 billion
10:53 AM Tue, Mar 03, 2009
Rudolph Bush
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/03/dallas-council-member-mitchell.html

Council member Mitchell Rasansky believes that repairing the Trinity River levees could cost more than $1 billion and require construction of a massive concrete wall, spanning 22 miles and built through the levees.

Rasansky said he was told by city staff that such a wall could be a "worst case scenario" solution to repair the Trinity levees.

The levees were recently rated "unacceptable" by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, in what is widely seen as a significant setback to the city's plans for the Trinity corridor.

Assistant City Manager Jill Jordan confirmed that she did tell Mr. Rasansky that such a solution was a remote possibility, but stressed that the Corps hasn't suggested any specific repairs.

...

[RobertB]

Oh, this is rich:

City officials said it is highly unlikely that any such wall would be required. Some smaller walls, in select sites along the levees, could be required, Jordan said.
Would those be the same city officials who keep saying that there's nothing wrong with the levees, and that you can put a big ol' toll road in there no problem? Or are they the ones who approved the design of the pilings for the Margaret Hunt Bridge, which must now be refitted to protect the levees in a flood?

Angela Hunt looks more mayoral all the time, but I don't think she'd agree to the demotion. :)

[AndyIvey]

Would those be the same city officials who keep saying that there's nothing wrong with the levees, and that you can put a big ol' toll road in there no problem?
So these city officials knew about this before the CoE published this report? That's rich.

[dfwcre8tive]

Sand in soil a new concern for Trinity River levees
10:41 PM CST on Tuesday, March 3, 2009
By MICHAEL LINDENBERGER and RUDOLPH BUSH / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/030409dnmetlevees.3c7e277.html

The discovery of sand in the soil near the Trinity River levees could greatly complicate Dallas' efforts to bring the levees up to standard after they received a failing grade from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.

Corps engineers discovered sand last spring while overseeing drilling of new piers for the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge, which will span the Trinity River in downtown Dallas. The piers are set directly into the levees, one of many violations flagged by the corps in a draft inspection report shared with Dallas officials Feb. 11 and made public last week.

But it's the finding of sand in the soil that helped raise the corps' concerns about the piers' locations, officials said Tuesday. Also unknown is what impact the discovery of sand could have on the construction of the Trinity Parkway toll road.

"Sand is something we have to be very careful of," said Kevin Craig, Trinity River project manager for the corps. "We simply said that there is a potential risk here that we need to incorporate into our findings."

...

[tamtagon]

10:41 PM CST on Tuesday, March 3, 2009
By MICHAEL LINDENBERGER and RUDOLPH BUSH / The Dallas Morning News

Corps engineers discovered sand last spring while overseeing drilling of new piers for the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge, which will span the Trinity River in downtown Dallas. The piers are set directly into the levees, one of many violations flagged by the corps in a draft inspection report shared with Dallas officials Feb. 11 and made public last week.

What's really frustrating to me right now is that Corps engineers were overseeing pier drilling which were a violation. Like, I guess there's a whole lotta stuff to keep up with and all, but if the piers were not supposed to be drilled in the levees, why weren't Corps engineers telling the drillers to stop?

[cowboyeagle05]

What's really frustrating to me right now is that Corps engineers were overseeing pier drilling which were a violation. Like, I guess there's a whole lotta stuff to keep up with and all, but if the piers were not supposed to be drilled in the levees, why weren't Corps engineers telling the drillers to stop?


I think its a matter of the left hand not telling the right hand. Probably the team that approved the drilling of piers was not aware of the new standards yet for the Levees so that project continued under the past standards. Now the part of the Corp of Engineers that has been doing the inspections and developing the new standards for levees are telling the city that the new higher standards developed after the drilling approvals are in noncompliance.

In city code this kind of thing might just be grandfathered on construction projects that are started before the new city code was approved but when it comes to flood control and millions of dollars in flood damage they kinda have to make a change in plans no matter how much it costs.

[RobertB]

So these city officials knew about this before the CoE published this report? That's rich.
I don't mind that they didn't know the facts. None of us did.

What is ridiculous is that they told the citizens of Dallas that everything was peachy keen, the levees were in great shape, and that there would be absolutely no complications to building significant infrastructure in the river bed. Oh, and that we were all anti-progress idiots for following Angela Hunt and pushing for a referendum to stop the project.

The responsible thing would have been to find out whether the levees were in good shape, THEN start planning for development. Now, the task is to get city leaders to focus on preventing a Katrina-like catastrophe. This report may be the reality check they needed -- Rasansky feels betrayed by his council allies, and Angela is no longer a voice crying in the wilderness.

[AndyIvey]

What is ridiculous is that they told the citizens of Dallas that everything was peachy keen, the levees were in great shape, and that there would be absolutely no complications to building significant infrastructure in the river bed. Oh, and that we were all anti-progress idiots for following Angela Hunt and pushing for a referendum to stop the project.
I'm not sure why anyone (without an agenda that requires it) would assume that the levees were in any shape other than good.


The responsible thing would have been to find out whether the levees were in good shape, THEN start planning for development.
The responsible thing would be to not waste local tax dollars doing studies for federal agencies.

I'm all for getting levees fixed, but let's not pretend like the "anti-progress idiots" had access to this report before it was published and everyone else simply refused to read it until now.

[Mballar]

I'm all for getting levees fixed, but let's not pretend like the "anti-progress idiots" had access to this report before it was published and everyone else simply refused to read it until now.
Did you not read the first sentence in Robert's post?

[mjblazin]

If you want to spend $1 BB, now growing to $2BB, you should not assume anything. It clearly looks like information was all over the Corps about potential problems, but they were not ready to issue a final report. Therefore the CoE had internal reasons why they did not meet the mayor's timeline. It was not something to be resolved by establishing a liaison in Dallas or running to a Senator to kick some official's behind. Instead of asking about the problem, the Council simply said push harder and hurry up. Apparently it was a CoE mandate to examine every levee post-Katrina. None of our quasi-levee experts on the Council wondered where the Dallas study was and how it might affect the tollway, particularly when it was common knowledge how St. Louis and Irving got hammered? They did not ask because they had an objective to reach come hell or, in this case, increased danger of high water.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I'm not sure why anyone (without an agenda that requires it) would assume that the levees were in any shape other than good.Au, contraire. There is no cause for any reasonable person to believe that they were in good shape. Even the Dallas City Manager admits that Dallas does a lousy job of maintaining its assets. For the past 20 years the city has tended to put health and safety issues at the bottom of the list when it comes to funding priorities. There have been several minor collapses over the years. Throw in that levees are the kind of "out of sight, out of mind", "we can put that repair off until next year" asset that are almost universally neglected until its too late, and you would have to be dreaming to expect them to be properly maintained in most cities, and especially Dallas.

[sterling]

This sounds like a job for Halliburton.

[downtownguy25]

Here is a great story about what the dutch are doing.

http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/magazine/17-01/ff_dutch_delta?currentPage=all

A great statement "American politicians could never get away with basing flood barrier specs on the value of what sits behind them. Ratcheting up defense levels in New Orleans to match those in the Netherlands would lead other areas of the Gulf Coast to demand equal treatment."

[kozzy]

I can't remember if it was 1990 or 1991 but we had a big flood on the Trinity that seemed to reach into Downtown Dallas. I can't remember it too well, but was that caused by levee failure, or the river spilling over the sides?

[downtownguy25]

Eh, if it ever comes down to it they can always blow up the levees on the oak cliff side and flood the poor to save the wealthy parts of town. Sorry bad joke about what some crazies think happened in NOLA.

[Tnekster]

12:04 PM CDT on Wednesday, March 11, 2009
By MICHAEL A. LINDENBERGER and RUDOLPH BUSH / The Dallas Morning News


The first Calatrava bridge over the Trinity River could be significantly delayed by a deep layer of sand in the east levees near downtown Dallas, a problem that has sent engineers working on the city's massive Trinity River project scrambling.

The 40-story suspension bridge, with its soaring arches and specially fabricated Italian steel, is slated to open by 2011. But it might lack some access ramps – becoming literally a bridge to nowhere – unless engineers for the state and city can persuade the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers to allow fresh holes to be dug in the east levees, near where the sand was found.

The latest hitch for the already delayed bridge comes as city leaders anxiously await delivery of the steel, which is steaming across the Atlantic Ocean on its way to Houston, and then to Dallas. Designed by famed architect Santiago Calatrava, the bridge has emerged as a powerful symbol of both the promise and the headaches associated with the Trinity River Corridor project, which voters first approved in 1998.


A larger question

It is the effect of the sand on that larger project – on the nearly $2 billion toll road, the lakes and other major features of the multibillion-dollar development – that poses the most vexing questions. Not a single person in City Hall, at the Texas Department of Transportation, or the North Texas Tollway Authority can say for sure how much time and money the sand will add to the Trinity Parkway toll road or other aspects of the Trinity project.

"I don't have one God-blessed answer," Dallas City Manager Mary Suhm said. "I don't know, and it's not in our control to know."

And they won't know until two things happen: Engineers analyze how big a risk the layer of sand could pose to the levees and – equally important – determine how widespread the seam of sand is along the 22-mile levee system. The state transportation engineer leading the bridge project said the sand layer was found throughout the footprint of the bridge and its sprawling infrastructure.

To help answer whether the sand extends beyond that area up and down the levees, the North Texas Tollway Authority is taking soil samples at some 300 spots along six miles of the levees.

If the sand layer turns out to run for miles, the fixes could get extraordinarily complex – and extraordinarily expensive.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/031109dnmettrinity.3e60f1c.html

[mrowl]

The project gets even more F'ed up. Love it.

[Tnekster]

At this point, I don't see how they can salvage this tollway unless the city can figure out some way to print money like they do in Washington.

[dfwcre8tive]

Corps to City: Trinity Levees failures are extreme, could prompt FEMA action
3:55 PM Wed, Apr 01, 2009 | Permalink
Michael Lindenberger/Reporter
http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/04/corps-to-city-trinity-levees-f.html

The city of Dallas released just a few minutes ago the inspection report from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which last month announced it would be giving a failing grade to the levees. The details are not pretty.

Here's the upshot, from a letter dated yesterday to the city:

"In 2006, the Fort Worth District submitted a letter ... in support of the levee certification efforts for the City of Dallas. Essentially this letter stated that the Dallas Floodway Project East and West levees met certification requirements. Based on the results of the Periodic Inspection and the deficiencies identified, the Fort Worth District can no longer support the 2006 letter as being the documentation on record for the certification of the Dallas Floodway Project for the purposes of the National Flood Insurance Program for the base flood event. We respectfully request that our 2006 letter no longer be used as part of the certification documentation."

The bottom line: The Trinity levees improvement project is no longer certified -- putting at risk their eligibility for federal funds (though the city plans to seek a waiver).

The city will soon be sending an official letter to FEMA saying so. That triggers a long regulatory process that ultimately could result in the feds having to redrawn all flood maps for downtown Dallas -- a step that would have huge consequences for property owners and potential development. The city says it will work with the Corps to identify a solution and expects to be given time by FEMA to complete the fixes before the federal agency takes action.

We'll stress test that claim, hopefully in time for tomorrow's paper, but in the meantime, go to the jump to see some of the big issues highlighted by the report.

The Corps worries that the piers associated with several bridges -- including the old DART bridge, the new Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge and others -- has created "severe" problems for the levees.

About the DART bridge, for instance, it says, "Severe erosion around each pier has occurred due to drainage from the bridge deck. Levee is severely degraded by bridge piers that penetrate approximately 1400-feet of levee crest."

About the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge: "Construction of the piers revealed large amounts of sand under and adjacent to the levee. Encroachment with essentially zero clearance above the levee crest prevents access and O&M."

And about the cracking, caused by dessecation, that is visible along the levees: "The levees are extensively cracked due to desiccation."

The fix?

"There are no easy corrections for desiccation cracking," says the Corps. "Possible options include remove & replace, overbuild sections, and structural measures. Evaluate mitigation options, then perform a Cost Benefit Analysis to determine most viable corrective action."

My colleague Rudy Bush is at the City Hall briefing and we'll have more soon, including more from city officials.

[orthr]

i knew it. we get started on "the largest urban park in the country", get into a big argument over an unneeded toll road, and our levees are deemed horrible by the army corps. What's next?

[NThomas]

i knew it. we get started on "the largest urban park in the country", get into a big argument over an unneeded toll road, and our levees are deemed horrible by the army corps. What's next?
So that pretty much rules out the toll road right?

[cowboyeagle05]

I think that rules out anything for the time being.

[Tucy]

I think that rules out anything for the time being.

Including the bridge?

[KBilly]

Yes, until the sand and seepage issues within the levee berm are ID'ed and rectified, as needed.

[smudoode]

Wait a minute here, the corp of engineers tested Dallas levees to the standards set precedent after the levees failed in New Orleans. I don't believe that our levees are a problem. So there is sand. Isn't sand pretty compact? This all sounds like political maneuvering to delay our park and bridges.

When does the corp of engineers expect a category 5 hurricane in North Texas?

Even if they do need to be reinforced, kill the tollway project and adapt the levees to NEXT GENERATION-SUPER LINEAR PILES OF DIRT. It's not that big of a deal.

And those that govern should be more concerned with upgrading existing highways (Pegasus Project, I-30 East Bound and Down :cool: ) before there's another highway thrown in the mix.

[trolleygirl]

Wait a minute here, the corp of engineers tested Dallas levees to the standards set precedent after the levees failed in New Orleans. I don't believe that our levees are a problem. So there is sand. Isn't sand pretty compact? This all sounds like political maneuvering to delay our park and bridges.

I don't think you understand basic geology. Sand is a problem because when you drive a support beam into the floodway- and we are- you displace all the dirt around it. In Texas with our soil, that's not a problem when there's a flood. But what does sand do when it gets wet? It liquefies and starts moving. So, if the support beam is sitting in sand, and there's a flood- and there will be- then the sand starts to travel and moves the support which in turn moves the road it's supporting.

[cowboyeagle05]

Wait a minute here, the corp of engineers tested Dallas levees to the standards set precedent after the levees failed in New Orleans. I don't believe that our levees are a problem. So there is sand. Isn't sand pretty compact? This all sounds like political maneuvering to delay our park and bridges.

When does the corp of engineers expect a category 5 hurricane in North Texas?

Even if they do need to be reinforced, kill the tollway project and adapt the levees to NEXT GENERATION-SUPER LINEAR PILES OF DIRT. It's not that big of a deal.

And those that govern should be more concerned with upgrading existing highways (Pegasus Project, I-30 East Bound and Down :cool: ) before there's another highway thrown in the mix.

Plus Dallas gets more rain then Seattle on average the difference between us and them is they get slow rains spread out over time. We get several inches sometimes feet in a couple of hours which does flood the Trinity flood zone very quickly. We are talking about a serious flood danger that's why the Levees were built. Im not worried tomorrow that we will all be under water but the Levees are in serious disrepair and danger of becoming worse. While they have held up till now who knows when the next strong rain will come through slowly fill up the Trinity and a newly dug bridge support will help a small whole grow bigger then in very short time a couple of houses or property or area of town is damaged. I would gladly put the Park, bridges, tollway, etc behind schedule to make sure the Levees will be repaired correctly quickly.

[downtownguy25]

There is a good article on unfair park about this...

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2009/04/enter_sand_man.php#more

[electricron]

I wouldn't worry too much about the bridge collapsing, there is a reason why they dig down to bedrock.

But the sand could be a problem in the levees for the reasons stated. I assume the sand has been there a very long time, and we have had floods before where the levees held.

Finding sand in Texas isn't unusual. Golly, half of Texas was once under water. Finding sand in any river bottom isn't unusual. The impact of the sand really depends on where it was found between the levees, and how close it was to the levees.

[smudoode]

"The levees were rated "excellent" in federal inspections as recently as 2006. But federal requirements have become more stringent since levee breaches in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina."

This is a quote from NBC5. The link is http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Trinity-Tollway-Critics-Focus-on-Levee-Fixes.html.

You are right, I could care less about geology, but it's not like sand is toxic. They build skyscrapers in Miami. We can build a bridge where some sand exists. It's political maneuvering.

Trolleygirls argument would support sand being a problem, IF the levees were sand dunes. But they aren't. OUR LEVEES ARE FINE!

[citizen]

"The levees were rated "excellent" in federal inspections as recently as 2006. But federal requirements have become more stringent since levee breaches in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina."

This is a quote from NBC5. The link is http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Trinity-Tollway-Critics-Focus-on-Levee-Fixes.html.

You are right, I could care less about geology, but it's not like sand is toxic. They build skyscrapers in Miami. We can build a bridge where some sand exists. It's political maneuvering.

Trolleygirls argument would support sand being a problem, IF the levees were sand dunes. But they aren't. OUR LEVEES ARE FINE!

Sounds like you are well on your way to a seat on the city council - Don't let the facts or an understanding of the problems and issues stand in the way of anything. The point is that if you provide a channel - like along a column/pier - to a sand layer the water will work its way there and then low and behold surface (going thru the sand) perhaps 100s of feet or yards away - maybe even on the other side of the levee. No broken levee, no crumbled bridge - just a giant flood.

[Mballar]

Sounds like you are well on your way to a seat on the city council - Don't let the facts or an understanding of the problems and issues stand in the way of anything.
It amazes me how some of these "junk" scientists continue with their theories based upon deductive reasoning, when scientific facts are staring them in the face.

[trolleygirl]

Finding sand in any river bottom isn't unusual. The impact of the sand really depends on where it was found between the levees, and how close it was to the levees.

You are absolutely right that finding sand in a river bottom isn't a huge problem. The problem is when you displace that sand by putting a column in it. When it gets wet, it will travel. Maybe it will cause a structure to fall, maybe it will cause a flood on the other side of the levee, no one knows. It's why they are talking about building a large, ugly and expensive "diaphragm wall" to hold in whatever possible flooding outside of the levee that could be caused by the sand.

[incrediculous]

"The levees were rated "excellent" in federal inspections as recently as 2006. But federal requirements have become more stringent since levee breaches in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina."


Let me get this right. Your point is, that new levee standards are too stringent, and the previous standards (which lead to the mass flooding of a major American city) are sufficient?

[trolleygirl]

They build skyscrapers in Miami. We can build a bridge where some sand exists.

They also build tall buildings and expensive condos in San Fransisco, knowing that any day "The Big One" could hit. North Central Texas is one of the safest places to live (it's why they wanted to build the supercollider in Waxahachie), and I think Dallasites should capitalize on the relative safeness of our city rather than intentionally doing things that would make it unsafe.

[smudoode]

Let me get this right. Your point is, that new levee standards are too stringent, and the previous standards (which lead to the mass flooding of a major American city) are sufficient?

Dallas will never flood from a hurricane. New Orleans did. Our levees are sufficient. If there needs to be improvements, than do it! It's just dirt.

This is exactly what the big wigs want us to do; bicker about the details and distract us from the progress If the federal government believes that our levee system is insufficient than let THEM waste money protecting a city 300 miles from the coast from hurricane Ritas and Katrinas

[downtownguy25]

You do not need a hurricane to cause flooding, look what is going on right now in ND.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hw95ek5Sllmi4SoQ_N4HJvwHE0ZAD97AELA80

[AndyIvey]

Did you not read the first sentence in Robert's post?
Yes and it was followed by the idea that toll supporters "assumed" that the levees were okay and therefore mislead the public. They had no reason to assume anything other than that the levees were in good shape and all available data supported that assumption.

[AndyIvey]

Au, contraire. There is no cause for any reasonable person to believe that they were in good shape. Even the Dallas City Manager admits that Dallas does a lousy job of maintaining its assets. For the past 20 years the city has tended to put health and safety issues at the bottom of the list when it comes to funding priorities. There have been several minor collapses over the years. Throw in that levees are the kind of "out of sight, out of mind", "we can put that repair off until next year" asset that are almost universally neglected until its too late, and you would have to be dreaming to expect them to be properly maintained in most cities, and especially Dallas.

I'm well aware of how the City funds assets like these. They don't maintain them and then run to the public for bonds. They do it because it works.

As for levee maintenance, they were probably doingthe bare minimum to pass inspection and it worked. They passed until Katrina-inspired regulation changes resulted in more stringent requirements and more thorough inspections. It looks to me like everyone in a position fo power was surprised by the CoE report.

The focus should now be on identifying exactly what is wrong and who has to pay to fix it. IF this was truly poor maintenance that went undiscovered for years, than state and local authorities will be on the hook. However, it reads to me like a change in regulation is what triggered the current problems. This looks more and more like an unfunded mandate for DC. They asked for more stingent levee inspections and requirements but didn't go a step further to identify what to do when the new rules result in failures that require tax dollars to fix.