Suburban Competition

[GarrettCarey]

From today's Dallas Business Journal

Interesting numbers, facts, projections here. It pisses me off!
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Frisco breaks ground on Platinum Park

The Frisco Economic Development Corp. has broken ground on the 200-acre Phase I portion of Platinum Park

Officials hope the 1,500-acre park will become the primary information and technology business center in North Texas, employing 20,000 people by 2010.

"Our vision is that Platinum Park will be home to Global 500 companies, corporate headquarters, and small- and mid-sized businesses," Frisco Mayor Mike Simpson said in a statement.

Simpson said the activity from Platinum Park to nearly triple Frisco's population from about 54,000 today to more than 146,000 by 2010.

The Phase I portion of Platinum Park replaces the 200-acre Frisco Jetport, which the FEDC bought in June 2000 for $8.5 million. The FEDC rezoned the property from an airport into a business center.

"The initial plans for Platinum Park are so attractive that the FEDC is already in talks with two developers regarding plans to construct spec office/flex buildings that will range from 80,000 to 100,000 square feet," said Jim Gandy, president of the FEDC.

In March 2000, the city council of Frisco adopted the Frisco Millennium Plan, a comprehensive guide for the future growth and development for Frisco. The plan designated an area of more than 1,500 acres, including the FEDC's 200 acres, for future information and technology zoning. The area is bounded by Main Street to the north, Teal Road to the west, Stewart Creek to the south, and Legacy Drive to the east.

The FEDC is working with landowners, developers, the city of Frisco, and Denton County officials to designate this area as a tax increment finance, or TIF, zone.

The FEDC recently awarded a contract to Concrete Crushing & Recycling of Athens for the removal of the existing 5,400-foot concrete runway, adjacent taxiways, and four cul-de-sac streets on Legacy Drive, which will be completed in early 2003.

Web site: www.friscoedc.com, (http://www.friscoedc.com,) www.ci.frisco.tx.us. (http://www.ci.frisco.tx.us.)

[Axes]

developers and greed are going to destroy dallas. what we need is more concrete. it is not like there is not viable space to be had. maybe frisco will just suck businesses from plano.

[MustangMonkey]

Our tax structure is going to kill our area in the future. Our system is still designed for a time when Texas was just a bunch of rural communities, and when the few larger cities could manage growth within their own city limits.

Keeping this outdated system is forcing our area to develop like a third world country (only with nicer houses and sleek suburban office buildings). Commute times are only going to get worse, and the older suburbs will be left for the newer ones. I would like to think the politicians and city councils could figure this out for themselves, but I think the greed factor is shading their perspective.

I would be interested in finding out what cities would like to combine with eachother, share tax dollars, and implement a master plan for efficient/attractive/ect.. development.

Unless groups of cites get together and combine tax dollars into logical development we are all going to be at the mercy of business and developers looking for the quick buck. Otherwise, the sprawl will never end. At last until our area gets such a bad reputation of smog, long commutes, and rundown abandoned city cores (plural) suburban office complexes, and housing.

Welcome St.Louis, and Detroit.


Outside of city mergers, which would allow business to remain in city cores, and out of the fringe areas (which leads to more sprawl) The state would have to act and change the current tax structure. Unfortunately, if you have ever looked at the state representation boarders of the great state of Texas, you will notice that the system is set up to nullify urban area voters by canceling them out with large amounts of rural voters.

[MustangMonkey]

The money hawks are definatly in Frisco, I just looked over some information on their city council. None of them lived in Frisco before 1991, and only two of 7 lived there before 1995.

We all know the small town rules. Move in cheap, bring in business and development, inflate your home values, sell high, and move on.

[Axes]

Could not agree more. That is why I support unified governments. Cities like Frisco are short sighted. They're happy in their little world and don't mind neglecting the core. Cities will only be as healthy as the core. StL and DET are perfect examples.

[MustangMonkey]

We are all one area, so you would think that the cities would want to work together. IMHO I think the surrounding cities should put up $100 dollar toll boths around any small towns like Frisco who think they are better off on their own.

The main reason for growth of most of these places is their position around DFW international; which, if I remember correctly was built by D and FW.

One thing that did bring a little smirk to my face is that the Frisco office park is supposed to be competting with Legacy park in Plano. Kind of fun to see suburbs get a taste of their own medicine (eventhough it only makes the region that more sprawly and bland).

[JaeTex]

Could someone please help me come up with a coherent, more thought out answer/ response as to why center city development should matter to the population at large, particularly to those outside the city?

I ask because I recently saw a news report about plans for development that included plans for a new city center/urban environment experience in Allen (I think, though this is also being done at Legacy I think and may be what that Southlake thing is or for that matter Addison Circle). I expressed my (insert polite term for being upset) that this was being done and was questioned by my wife who thought that was exactly the kind of development I favored. I had to admit that from my viewpoint it was better than endless rows of rabbit-warren-design streets for subdivisions, but could do no better in explaining why this was bad or upset me than to refer to the offending city as parasites for sapping the strength of the big city which is the reason they are in the area in the first place, or as hypocrites for moving away from the city and then trying to recreate the city (though no doubt a Disney-fied version of the city with no poor people).

We say cities are only as healthy as the core, but does that mean the center-city, the whole area, or what? From the ‘burbs viewpoint is the city only as healthy as the core? I think they kill off the engine that drives the whole area, but it’s hard to make someone in Frisco who at best may commute downtown and would love to cut his commute down to 5-10 minutes believe that a Dallas art district adds to his well-being…
…but I ramble.
A little help would be greatly appreciated.

[Axes]

Simply, I view it as consolidation of resources. Instead of having dozens of mediocre, similar developments, concentrate resources in a single place and make it better for everyone. You used a museum example. Instead of having 10 suburban bad museums, have 1 truly great one. Same goes for restaurants, etc. Concentration means more people and more money.

Visitors, etc. - like Boeing - don't go, wow, Frisco has a nice little business park. They look at downtown not every little burb.

[GarrettCarey]

I agree.

Think of what DT Dallas would look like if the development in Addison, Plano, Richardon, Irving/Las Colinas, etc had been focused in the CBD. Wow, what an urban environment!

Suburb business development is great, but like Axes said........."Visitors, etc. - like Boeing - don't go, wow, Frisco has a nice little business park. They look at downtown not every little burb."

[Knight22]

Reputation of the area plays an important role. I have talked to numerous people from the north east and even (gasp) L.A. who view DFW as nothing more than a fly over zone, because it seems so dull and monotonous. I strongly disagree with these comments and think that Dallas truly does have something to offer but if these same trends continue then Dallas will continue to lose more business's like Boeing. If we end up having the same kind of reputation that say a Detroit has, then cities like Frisco will hopefully take notice. Here is an interesting fact, the city of Hurst has a higher population density than Dallas........ouch.

[bloodandpopcorn]

WOW, that is a big slap in the face. Anyone have any ideas on how to lure more people into living in the city limits? I guess we just need more urban minded people.... But for instance, now it's nearly as easy to live in parts of Richardson as it is to live in the Park Cities, because they can drive less than a minute to a DART station and be downtown in 40 minutes or less. Why would anyone want to pay so much more to live geographically closer when time and ease wise its just about as good to live far cheaper and have a larger lot?

[JaeTex]

A glimmer of hope from the 'burbs found at www.civic-strategies.com/resources/metros/dallas.htm (http://www.civic-strategies.com/resources/metros/dallas.htm)

We Love Downtown
Distance may indeed make the heart grow fonder in Dallas. Distance, that is, from downtown. According to a Dallas Morning News poll, suburbanites there are even fonder of downtown Dallas than city residents. Three-quarters of suburbanites said they believed "the health of downtown Dallas is crucial to the future of the North Texas region." Only two-thirds of city residents agreed with the statement. Fifty-seven percent of those polled said they found downtown exciting and 62 percent agreed that downtown "is undergoing a renaissance."

[MustangMonkey]

No offence, but polls don't mean anything.
Talk is cheap; action and check books are harder to come by.

Here is my interpretation of this poll:

The poll states that 2/3 of dallas residents are willing to pay the additional tax dollars that it takes to develop a great downtown for the entire metroplex.

3/4 of suburbanites think it is in their best interest to be a suburb of a great city with a great downtown. And since Dallas residents are footing the bill, it works well for them. The other 1/4 are pissed off because a great downtown might make it more difficult for them to steal business away from.

The 62% of suburbanites that belive downtown is going through a renasance, are people who like to live in a shell and just pretend everything will be fine as long as they keep the couch warm and excercise the batteries in the remote-control.

Finally, the 57% of suburbanites that found DT exciting have never been to NY, SF, Chicago, or otherwise outside of Texas and Oklahoma.

[JaeTex]

And I thought I was cynic.

No offense taken, I think your points are probably right on. I found it hopeful that those in the 'burbs weren't completely disdainful at the thought of a vibrant DT and seemed to acknowledge that that should be in Big D. But perhaps what they have in mind are the Disney-fied "urban experiences" that are being built in Legacy and Allen?

I will say that perhaps DT is at the start of a renaissance, but then again one is hyped every 4-5 yrs. If Main St. courtesy of Madison comes off, DART expansion, and a modicum of life after hours (I drove thru DT near Umlaut one weekend night and actually encountered traffic and people in the street not dressed in rags...I was shocked) this COULD be the beginning but we won't know for several years.

[cjyoung]

I think it will be tough to stop the current momentum. The level of housing and office development in Collin county and suburban Dallas county has and will continue to sap energy from the CBD.

There is too much vacant space in the Dallas MSA.

We in Fort Worth are learning from a lot of the mistakes made by Dallas as it has grown.

Detroit should be a lesson to Dallas.

[GarrettCarey]

I agree cjyoung. However, Fort Worth is not exempt from these problems. But what steps can be taken to help remedy the problem...for either CBD? I am an advocate for both cities and their interests. Suburban competition can and will continue to hurt both cities.

[MustangMonkey]

I have been tossing around the thought of more aggressive annexation laws, which would allow the central cities to annex adjacent suburbs.

This allows for more regional planning that actually has a backbone, and would be run by people actually elected to office.

With regional planning, better attractions can be built for the people of the Dallas MSA/CMSA area.

Incentives can be given to companies wishing to locate to the area, without the wasted taxpayer expense of other cites giving additional incentives in latter years (to companies never wishing to relocate in the first place). In addition, larger incentives can be given for attractions company relocations which the area needs desires ect...

Smog and pollution can be controlled better, via incentives to companies to locate in high density areas, or otherwise areas with good transportation access. Todays smog control efforts are asking people to rideshare, take public transportation, and penalizing construction companies for working early in the morning

[MustangMonkey]

Allows for more efficient town centers of activity, rather than the city limit strip developments of today.

In general, allows more freedom for personal choices, and regional planning whithout arbitrary city-limit-lines being determining factors to development and progress.


The problems of today cannot be solved by the same level of thinking that created them. Albert Einstien


Spell check seems to cut off the bottom of a post!

[GarrettCarey]

well said mustang!

[bloodandpopcorn]

So, uh, how do we go about this?

[MustangMonkey]

We can start by writting to our state represenatives with our ideas on how things need to be changed, why they need to be changed, and what problems they will solve.

First, I think we should come up with a proposal.
We should make a list of all the social ills we see in how things are done today. We should develop ideas on how to reduce or eliminate these problems, and ways that hve win-win situations that simultaneously eliminate old problems and create new oportunities. Then we will use our brains and try to think of any new problems we might create with our new system. Modify, if needed, and repeat as needed.

We will then need to come up with a process to change from one system to another that dosen't include a shock factor which throws advantages to one group of people while hurting another. Always keep in mind that our reasons for change are to benifit everyone; and since this will be a state issue, we need to show the advantages to the state as well as to the region (even though they should go hand-in-hand).

I'll write more later

[GarrettCarey]

From today's DBJ
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08/19/2002

AutoCorp moves to Frisco

AutoCorp Equities Inc. has moved its corporate headquarters from Dallas to Frisco.

The new 5,200 square-foot facility at 1701 Legacy Drive also will be occupied by two of the company's subsidiaries, AutoCorp Financial Services Inc. and CompuSolutions Inc.

AutoCorp Financial Services will consolidate its phone collection activities and operate exclusively from the new office.

CompuSolutions, which AutoCorp bought in June, is also in the process of relocating their employees and data center to the new site.

When fully occupied, the space will be used by more than 40 employees.

AutoCorp said it also is negotiating for additional space in the same building if facility expansion is needed sooner than currently anticipated.

AutoCorp's core business is nonprime auto retail sales and lending. Its three units are AutoCorp Financial Services, ACE Auto Group Inc. and CompuSolutions.

[JaeTex]

There I was reading the business section first today (9/27), happy to read Steve Brown's column and learn that Borders is signed on for 2nd phase of West Village...then I turn to the front page and DMN seems to be talking in glowing terms about the massive suburban sprawl that is planned for the far, far north.

I can't figure out the DMN. It always seems to sponsor reports on repsonsible development, and DT revitalization, but then doesn't mention (unless I missed it) how silly it is to envision parts of the Metroplex closer to Oklahoma than to DT Dallas.

Also, the Tollway needs to be stopped. It is driving lots of the growth up north. People move up there because they are near the tollway, the tollway moves farther north becasue more people are there, then back to step 1.

[GarrettCarey]

Prosper.....unbelievable!

There is absolutely no reason to go that far north. Before you know it, the panhandle cities will be the new north Dallas suburbs.

[MustangMonkey]

What I find odd is how they always refer to these places as (the fastest growing ect...) based solely on percentage increases of places that have more cows than people.

[KelleyUSA]

Not to mention how they always make it seem like it's a short 30 minutes to Downtowon-PLEASE!!!!

[freewaytincan]

I was thinking...doesn't Platinum Park sound like a rap album?

Just something that came into my head.