Uptown (Victory) and Downtown... at what point will they merge?

[totheskies]

Victory is such a crazy combination of projects, and they all seem to be encroaching on downtown. Eventhough most people know the division between the two, it's getting harder and harder to distinguish. The fast-approaching Green line will also provide another permanent link for Victory and downtown.

Do you think this "merger" should be promoted as such, or is it better to view these as separate areas?

[Spjz]

^Does this post really merit starting a new thread?

[totheskies]

Maybe not to you, but I think it's a valid question. There's lots of good things that are coming from the growth of uptown, and lots of challenges. Some people may want an outlet to discuss this.

[Milkman Dan]

I recently read a short piece by John Crawford (DowntownDallas) and he repeatedly mentioned Victory and Uptown in his statistics and seemed to include them in his definition of Downtown Dallas. I assume that means the city is hoping to promote all areas near there as "Downtown".

[ksig121]

I recently read a short piece by John Crawford (DowntownDallas) and he repeatedly mentioned Victory and Uptown in his statistics and seemed to include them in his definition of Downtown Dallas. I assume that means the city is hoping to promote all areas near there as "Downtown".

Yeah, I think that it has been mentioned in a few threads that most people who don't live in or near downtown basically consider everything from Knox-Henderson to the Cedars as "Downtown Dallas". When my friends who live in Plano talk about a night out on Greenville, they don't say that they're going to Near East Dallas. They say that they are going Downtown. I think that some of us who live in the central city lose some perspective on this.

[cowboyeagle05]

Yes there have been miles of arguments on this subject cause I do consider Deep Ellum, Victory, Oakcliff, South Dallas, Expo Park, Fair Park, Greenville Avenue, Design District, Arts District, Main Street, West End, Uptown, Cedars, State Thomas District, and the Farmer's Market to all be Downtown but some only think of Downtown as the skyscrapers with the central Dallas Loop of highways.

DowntownDallas already considers Victory in their ballpark cause they promote it like crazy in there material as part of Downtown Dallas.

DowntownDallas is basically a Chamber of Commerce for Downtown that is funded by local businesses yearly membership fees. You do not get promotion from DowntownDallas group unless you are a paying member. Notice they only have paying members at DowntownDallas events. I understand why cause they use membership fees to pay for improvements to the entire district but its kinda sad they seem to refuse to talk to you unless you can write them a big enough check. Sometimes that seems a little counter productive for downtown in its entirety.

As for subject of this thread Victory is already part of Downtown in a sense and as more high rise development fills in the gaps between 80's skyscrapers to Uptown Ritz Hotel that branding will only strength as marketing sells it all as one Downtown with distinctive neighborhoods.

[totheskies]

There's so little space between uptown(s) and downtown to begin with.

Uptown is crescent-shaped... it wraps around DTD, and if you're not counting the West End, the only physical barrier between the two is Woodall Rogers fwy.

Of course the street grid is another animal. DTD is more of a real grid, but uptown streets have much less connectivity. So I guess that's one distinction that will remain constant among the two areas.

[downtownguy25]

Its all a matter of perspective, "downtown" its self is even divided up into smaller neighborhoods, you have the arts district, the gov district, west end, convention, etc... in the end a city is just a bunch of neighborhoods that run into each other.

[palchik]

They will functionally merge when the Woodall Rodgers deck park and Katy Trail extensions are completed.

[downtownguy25]

Not really, I used to walk from my condo in the west village to my friends condo in the W all the time. It was easier for me to get to VP than everything on main st. The grocery store in the base of the house would have been more convient for me than the urban market.

[trolleygirl]

Uptown is crescent-shaped... it wraps around DTD, and if you're not counting the West End, the only physical barrier between the two is Woodall Rogers fwy.

And that, my friend, is known as a barrier. Freeways/Expressways/Motorways are big barriers, whether elevated or trenched. They break-up and destabilize neighborhoods (see 175 through South Dallas). They are never seen as uniters and always viewed as dividers, and for obvious reasons. If you want a sure way to kill a stable, defined neighborhood, run a highway through it. And it is for this reason that so many DTD and Arts District businesses are in favor of decking Woodall Rodgers and building a giant park across it.

I agree with Ksig. To the people who live inside the loop, DTD is a unique, defined area, separate from Uptown, separate from Victory. To everyone else, DTD is anything inside the loop.

[xen0blue]

the answer to the title of this thread is: when the threads do

[totheskies]

And that, my friend, is known as a barrier. Freeways/Expressways/Motorways are big barriers, whether elevated or trenched. They break-up and destabilize neighborhoods (see 175 through South Dallas). They are never seen as uniters and always viewed as dividers, and for obvious reasons. If you want a sure way to kill a stable, defined neighborhood, run a highway through it. And it is for this reason that so many DTD and Arts District businesses are in favor of decking Woodall Rodgers and building a giant park across it.

I agree with Ksig. To the people who live inside the loop, DTD is a unique, defined area, separate from Uptown, separate from Victory. To everyone else, DTD is anything inside the loop.

I'm aware that freeways kill neighborhood connectivity... did you forget where I'm from that fast? ;)

Yeah, it's a delicate balance. But Dallas has good examples of both extremes... Central Expy is pretty well-connected with the ped. friendly bridges and landscaping (I'm thinking the Mockingbird station area). Then you have places like the "Mixmaster" where it's hard to imagine that a nieghborhood once existed there at all. A park would be an interesting concept... is that in the works?

[tamtagon]

I miss Aceplace.

[NThomas]

I'm aware that freeways kill neighborhood connectivity... did you forget where I'm from that fast? ;)

Yeah, it's a delicate balance. But Dallas has good examples of both extremes... Central Expy is pretty well-connected with the ped. friendly bridges and landscaping (I'm thinking the Mockingbird station area). Then you have places like the "Mixmaster" where it's hard to imagine that a nieghborhood once existed there at all. A park would be an interesting concept... is that in the works?
Only thing thats close to that is Project Pegasus
http://www.projectpegasus.org/grafx/mixmaster_view.jpg
But I wouldn't consider that a park...

[tamtagon]

But I wouldn't consider that a park...

haha

I wonder how the TRP Overlook would in that picture.

[cowboyeagle05]

I'm aware that freeways kill neighborhood connectivity... did you forget where I'm from that fast? ;)

Yeah, it's a delicate balance. But Dallas has good examples of both extremes... Central Expy is pretty well-connected with the ped. friendly bridges and landscaping (I'm thinking the Mockingbird station area). Then you have places like the "Mixmaster" where it's hard to imagine that a nieghborhood once existed there at all. A park would be an interesting concept... is that in the works?
Don't even begin to suggest that Central Expressway near Mockingbird station is in any way pedestrian friendly even when compared with other highways. I have tried to cross the access roads and the highway several times on foot every single time I have almost got my self killed. I waited for 45 minutes for a Pedestrian sign that never changed but the green light and red lights for cars changed a dozen times. Mockingbird Station might be doing better financially if they would fix at least that problem.

[KBilly]

Don't even begin to suggest that Central Expressway near Mockingbird station is in any way pedestrian friendly even when compared with other highways. I have tried to cross the access roads and the highway several times on foot every single time I have almost got my self killed. I waited for 45 minutes for a Pedestrian sign that never changed but the green light and red lights for cars changed a dozen times. Mockingbird Station might be doing better financially if they would fix at least that problem.
How true! Pedestrian friendly bridges on NCX? Ha! And a lot the landscaping is dead or ripped out now.

That's akin to saying 1-10 at the West Loop in Houston is an alleyway.

[vman]

How true! Pedestrian friendly bridges on NCX? Ha! And a lot the landscaping is dead or ripped out now.

That's akin to saying 1-10 at the West Loop in Houston is an alleyway.

But 59 in Houston is gorgeous. I remember that freeway when I was a kid and it looks incredible now. I also love what Houston has done with those wonderfully tacky light posts on the bridges over Buffalo Bayou. If you can't walk over a freeway, at least make it nice took look at..IMO. That's why it pisses me off that TX-Dot tore out the greenery on some of Central!!!

[The Great Hizzy!]

I've not been on the NCX in close to a year. Did they really take out THAT much of the landscaping for it to be noticeably absent? If so, that IS a shame. I thought the choice in flora really worked well with the color scheme and design of the barrier walls and such.

[trolleygirl]

But 59 in Houston is gorgeous.

Well, that doesn't make a freeway inviting for pedestrians.


That's why it pisses me off that TX-Dot tore out the greenery on some of Central!!!

Didn't they do that so they could replant with newer/better plants? I thought they were going to do some new plantings at some point in the near future.

[trolleygirl]

I'm aware that freeways kill neighborhood connectivity... did you forget where I'm from that fast? ;)

Yeah, it's a delicate balance. But Dallas has good examples of both extremes... Central Expy is pretty well-connected with the ped. friendly bridges and landscaping (I'm thinking the Mockingbird station area). Then you have places like the "Mixmaster" where it's hard to imagine that a nieghborhood once existed there at all. A park would be an interesting concept... is that in the works?

Look, Houston, I don't care where you're from nearly as much as you do, but a little Dallas history might go a long way.

But Central Expressway is a terrible example to use to support your point. NCX has ALWAYS been a barrier and there have NEVER been connecting neighborhoods that were divided when NCX was built. Before NCX was there, it was the Houston and Texas Central RR. There has ALWAYS been a distinction between the east and west sides of that ROW. There were very distinct and different neighborhoods on each side and it has been very difficult to try to connect the Park Cities and SMU to Mockingbird Station.

And though it may be hard to imagine, there was a neighborhood that once existed there where this "mixmaster" now lives, it's called the Cedars and it was once a very wealthy and prominent neighborhood.

[Spjz]

But Central Expressway is a terrible example to use to support your point. NCX has ALWAYS been a barrier and there have NEVER been connecting neighborhoods that were divided when NCX was built.
Don't even begin to suggest that Central Expressway near Mockingbird station is in any way pedestrian friendly even when compared with other highways. I have tried to cross the access roads and the highway several times on foot every single time I have almost got my self killed. I waited for 45 minutes for a Pedestrian sign that never changed but the green light and red lights for cars changed a dozen times. Mockingbird Station might be doing better financially if they would fix at least that problem.I'll reluctantly agree that the Mockingbird/NCX service road intersection is busy and poorly timed, but everything else from K/H to Hall is just fine. Most of the overpasses have wide sidewalks and they are about the equivalent of a regular city block - quite walkable for any but the squeemish. Would I want to sit at an outdoor coffeeshop patio right next to the service road? Probably not, but there are plenty of other uses that are quite compatible with pedestrian development and a canyoned freeway that can occupy those spaces. Just stick the coffee shops and eateries around the corner on the city street. They'll be fine.

If the TXDoT division in Dallas has trouble xeroscaping a freeway, send'em down to SA for some tips. The I10/I35 interchange is wonderfully xeroscaped down here.

[totheskies]

Look, Houston, I don't care where you're from nearly as much as you do, but a little Dallas history might go a long way.

But Central Expressway is a terrible example to use to support your point. NCX has ALWAYS been a barrier and there have NEVER been connecting neighborhoods that were divided when NCX was built. Before NCX was there, it was the Houston and Texas Central RR. There has ALWAYS been a distinction between the east and west sides of that ROW. There were very distinct and different neighborhoods on each side and it has been very difficult to try to connect the Park Cities and SMU to Mockingbird Station.

And though it may be hard to imagine, there was a neighborhood that once existed there where this "mixmaster" now lives, it's called the Cedars and it was once a very wealthy and prominent neighborhood.

You must have some deeply seeded emotional issues with Houston, but this is neither the time nor place to discuss them.

Again, thank you for the information, its great to know about the past of those areas. Since you're apparently over a century old, I'll have to come up and learn of your wisdom sometime.

It just happened that the last time I was up in Dallas, I crossed over the NCX to Mockingbird station, and it didn't seem to be that much of a hassle at the time. But it appears that the consensus feels differently.

[trolleygirl]

I miss Aceplace.

*sigh*

Me too.

[totheskies]

Is it just me, or has Deep Ellum been a a large decline? It doesn't appear to be as safe an area as it was five years ago.

The club scene in Dallas is starting to "spread out" abit.

[Mballar]

Is it just me, or has Deep Ellum been a a large decline? It doesn't appear to be as safe an area as it was five years ago.

The club scene in Dallas is starting to "spread out" abit.
There are several threads that discuss Deep Ellum. Just use the forum's search feature. I'm 99.9% positive you'll find the answer to this question.

[superkaty]

i live in the m-streets and find it very easy to access the "other" side of central. i wouldn't choose mockingbird as the place to cross, however. i take monticello or mccommas (on foot, in car, on bike, etc) and never have any problem whatsoever with traffic. it's easy access to the katy trail or anything else "west" of the neighborhood.

[trolleygirl]

i live in the m-streets and find it very easy to access the "other" side of central. i wouldn't choose mockingbird as the place to cross, however. i take monticello or mccommas (on foot, in car, on bike, etc) and never have any problem whatsoever with traffic. it's easy access to the katy trail or anything else "west" of the neighborhood.

I would agree with that, McCommas is a good place to cross. But it's a single-family neighborhood too, not a busy mixed-use development. Big difference.

BTW- welcome to the forum.