Cable Cars/ Gondolas for mass transit?

[DTDdreamer]

Are there any cities that use aerial, high speed, gondolas as mass transit. If not, it could put Dallas back on the map for mass transit. I can't think of any negatives... well maybe the occasional crash but what are the chances?
They would not produce any emissions, they could carry 5-6 people at a time, the poles/lines could be added without having to disrupt the existing streets or rail lines, plus it would just be cool as hell. How do you get an idea in front of the right people. Probably a REAL long shot but you never know until you ask.

[RobertB]

^- love the pic! Where's it from?

The biggest problem is that gondolas only seem to work for point-to-point transit, like from the bottom of a mountain to the top. You can't have "stops" in the traditional sense, because stopping one car means stopping all of them. Although I did once offer a tongue-in-cheek suggestion that the new Fair Park skyride be extended along Main Street, down Fort Worth Avenue, and on into Grand Prairie and Arlington. :)

Now, if you can come up with a technology that allows cars to switch lines, you could really be on to something. You can probably find 5-6 people that want to go from Mesquite to Carrollton. We would gather at the Skyride Station in Mesquite, punch in our destination, and be directed to a car that would be custom-routed directly to downtown Carrollton. Maybe three of us would get off there, and a couple more would get on for the Skyride to Addison.

Yeah, that would be way cool.

[psukhu]

NYC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosevelt_Island_Tramway

Portland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Aerial_Tram

[TheMapman]

There was talk of a point-to-point hookup across the Detroit River between the city and Windsor, but 9/11 and the resulting security and customs concerns killed that privately funded idea.

[LH_Newbie]

Comments/Questions:

- How is a cable car system supposed to be able to operate without emissions? Are you referring to it being powered by electricity? For what it's worth, 50% of our electricity is produced by coal, which has emissions.
- I agree that it would be cool, and a "ride" was added to fair park for this very reason.
- As far as mass transit goes, I'm not certain it would work all that well from a financial perspective.

And lastly, a person I work with forwarded me this info - I haven't really analyzed it, but thought I could pass on the link for those that want to:

http://thehighwayinthesky.us/

[Sky Time]

well, to allow for stops, you could use what gondolas use to turn around and get people on and off, they lift the cab off the line and move it around slowly to allow people to get on and off, so you set stations along that way that remove the cars, allow people to get on and off and then drop it back on the line, set it up to where there is just 30 seconds of slow time to space out the cars, it could work. Then the problem comes up with a cable long enough and engine strong enough to move all of this.

My second theory is you connect separate lines all forming one long line, each station is the end of one line and the beginning of another, allowing for you to stick to basic gondola technology, but allowing you to lift the cars off, and move them from one wheel to the next to continue there journey to the next station.

This is a rough idea
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/Dallasbrink/gondola.jpg

[jsoto3]

There is a local landscape architect/urban designer (involved with the Trinity River Corridor project) that is floating the idea of using this sort of system to connect the proposed Reunion Overlook at the edge of Trinity River Corridor to Downtown at Union Station/Reunion Tower, with the possibility of extending to the proposed CC Hotel.

[RobertB]

This is a rough idea
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/Dallasbrink/gondola.jpg
That looks great! Where did you get that schematic?

As for thehighwayinthesky.us, they've *got* to be kidding. They promise "airplane speeds", and the design looks like an MD-80 suspended from a wire. Can you say "failure mode"?
http://thehighwayinthesky.us/wp-content/themes/wpremix/images/bannerbg.png
Though I have to say they've got something there when they offer a $100 "Ticket for Life". They note that the cost per mile per passenger is 42 cents, so that $100 is a heckuva deal. Assuming they could find anyone to *build* their LAX-LAS line, when 270 mi * $0.42/mi = a $113/person one-way ticket! Kinda hard to sell that when a car that gets 27mpg can make the same drive for $50, even with $5/gal gas.

[texcolo2]

New York City has one. The Roosevelt Island Tramway. It's featured in the movies Spiderman and Dark Water.

http://www.newyorkology.com/archives/images/roosevelttram.jpg

[Sky Time]

That looks great! Where did you get that schematic?

Just did it in Illustrator.

But now that i think about it, i was bored one day and was looking at the company website for the company that did the Texas SkyWay at Fair Park, and i want to say i saw something talking about a multi station gondola system.

[gshelton91]

Seems like this would be a great solution for connecting people at the Park Lane Dart stop with North Park Center, the Retail/office complex across Northwest HWY and the Double Tree

How cool would that be to park at one development or even ride Dart and be able to visit all those locations.

[Sky Time]

Seems like this would be a great solution for connecting people at the Park Lane Dart stop with North Park Center, the Retail/office complex across Northwest HWY and the Double Tree

How cool would that be to park at one development or even ride Dart and be able to visit all those locations.

I think thats the only way it would work, I think that trying to use this as a way from getting Plano to Downtown Dallas is not going to work, but using it to connect projects like North Park Place and North Park Mall is completely practical.

[RobertB]

I think thats the only way it would work, I think that trying to use this as a way from getting Plano to Downtown Dallas is not going to work, but using it to connect projects like North Park Place and North Park Mall is completely practical.
Hmmm... places that are separated by a pedestrian-unfriendly barrier, in a country where walking is something you do from the car to the door...

* Mockingbird Station to Bush Library
Mission Accomplished.

* Downtown Plano and Collin Creek Mall
That would connect the DART station to a major attraction that's hard to get to by bus.

* Valley View and the Galleria
A bit redundant, but if one gets a DART station and the other doesn't, it might be a good compromise. It might even be cheaper than digging two subway stations under LBJ.

* Parkland Station (LRT) and Medical/Market Center (TRE)
Again, it seems redundant, but it's an awfully long walk from the current Parkland (and Children's Medical Center) core to the new station.

* West Village and Cityplace
Kind of like the original Cityplace skybridge, except without the West Tower... or the bridge. Seriously, though, it's a pain to go down the stairs to the DART mezzanine and then back up again just to catch the trolley.

I bet there are plenty of other locations where, once you get past the "you can't be serious" factor, a tramway makes sense. And then, there are the ideas that might not pass that hurdle...

* Wynnewood Village and Jefferson Ave.
Sure, a trolley route down Zang would make more sense, but a sky-high tram makes at least as much sense as a suspension bridge across the Trinity...

* Town East Mall and North Mesquite High School
I don't think any of my daughter's friends would mind if they closed down the cafeteria and let them ride to the Food Court for lunch.

* Mockingbird Station to Knox/Henderson
They kept that unsightly subway station out of their neighborhood... perhaps they just wanted to make a bolder statement? Running an aerial tramway along Central Expressway to end at the would-be subway entrance says "Oops!" loud and clear.

* Love Field Station and Love Field
Underground tunneling is going to be prohitively expensive. Much easier to just to up and over the runwa... oh, yeah, nevermind.

[Spjz]

* West Village and Cityplace
Kind of like the original Cityplace skybridge, except without the West Tower... or the bridge. Seriously, though, it's a pain to go down the stairs to the DART mezzanine and then back up again just to catch the trolley.
I think that walking across Central is a pretty easy task for the average pedestrian. There are stop lights and crosswalks and soon the WV will fill in towards the freeway.

[Haretip]

Wow, this is such an odd discussion for me, I don't even know where to start.

Normally, I would just throw down an invitation for any of you seriously involved in this discussion to purchase some crack cocaine from me at a good price, but as Aceplace seems to have become my inner conscious on posting ad hominem attacks and the fact that I don't actually sell crack cocaine, I'll refrain from doing so.

But, cable cars as serious public transit. Really. I mean, REALLY? Are you serious? I mean, you can't think of ANY negatives, REALLY?

But so as not to disrupt this thread, please let me excuse myself and encourage you to continue the discussion. I am fascinated with some sort of morbid curiousity which way this thread evolves. I mean, no negatives, REALLY? I don't even know if the FRA has a category for cable tramway new starts. I mean, that Brooklyn tramway looks like it will hold a lot of people and I see the windows are open so as to alleviate the lack of air conditioning. (Did anyone find out if the Fair Park gons are AC'd?), but hey, looks like a great idea to me.

[RobertB]

But, cable cars as serious public transit. Really. I mean, REALLY? Are you serious? I mean, you can't think of ANY negatives, REALLY?
Like I said, it makes at least as much sense as a signature bridge over a drainage ditch.

In fact, I think I should add Reunion Arena -- Bishop Arts to the list of potential implementations. And Medical/Market -- Fort Worth Avenue, too. Those would all provide a panoramic view of the Wild and Scenic Trinity River. "Hey, I can see my car (that was stolen last week) from here!"

But perhaps we should look at more traditional uses. The only one I can think of would be from Victory to Goat Hill. That seems somehow fitting...

[UTdude]

Are there any cities that use aerial, high speed, gondolas as mass transit.

The city of Ogden, Utah, recently studied using gondolas as a mass transit option. The system would connect the city's commuter rail hub to a proposed ski resort on the city's east side with stops in between serving the downtown area and Weber State University. Check out this link: http://liftogden.com/brochur2.htm

The region's mass transit agency included the gondola option in an alternatives analysis for Ogden and determined that light rail or modern streetcar systems would better meet ridership demand in the area. Here's a summary: http://www.smartgrowthogden.org/modules/transit/corridorstudy.php

The gondola is widely seen as a tourist toy to market the city's emerging image as a center for outdoor recreation.

[Sky Time]

Wow, this is such an odd discussion for me, I don't even know where to start.

Normally, I would just throw down an invitation for any of you seriously involved in this discussion to purchase some crack cocaine from me at a good price, but as Aceplace seems to have become my inner conscious on posting ad hominem attacks and the fact that I don't actually sell crack cocaine, I'll refrain from doing so.

But, cable cars as serious public transit. Really. I mean, REALLY? Are you serious? I mean, you can't think of ANY negatives, REALLY?

But so as not to disrupt this thread, please let me excuse myself and encourage you to continue the discussion. I am fascinated with some sort of morbid curiousity which way this thread evolves. I mean, no negatives, REALLY? I don't even know if the FRA has a category for cable tramway new starts. I mean, that Brooklyn tramway looks like it will hold a lot of people and I see the windows are open so as to alleviate the lack of air conditioning. (Did anyone find out if the Fair Park gons are AC'd?), but hey, looks like a great idea to me.

There are no negatives, if there is a heavy storm, you shut it down and store the cars in one of the stations since they come off the line. they do have AC's, the technology for them is small enough. what else?

[downtownguy25]

There are no negatives, if there is a heavy storm, you shut it down and store the cars in one of the stations since they come off the line. they do have AC's, the technology for them is small enough. what else?

Well the only experiance I have with these is while snowboarding but I can see some negatives to this system. They dont really stop when they get to the station, they just hop on another loop and slow down before getting back on the main line. Getting out of a slow moving vehicle would limit who can use it. Takes out the elderly and the disabled. So there goes your federal money.

[Sky Time]

Well the only experiance I have with these is while snowboarding but I can see some negatives to this system. They dont really stop when they get to the station, they just hop on another loop and slow down before getting back on the main line. Getting out of a slow moving vehicle would limit who can use it. Takes out the elderly and the disabled. So there goes your federal money.

same experience, you can slow down the system for handicapped.

[RobertB]

There are no negatives, if there is a heavy storm, you shut it down and store the cars in one of the stations since they come off the line.
A system that doesn't work in a storm isn't a negative?

[downtownguy25]

same experience, you can slow down the system for handicapped.

Only so much, if you need to keep a certain distance between the carts. The longer the cart slows to let people off the slower it moves. I also dont see people in wheel chairs being able to get on.There are also other disadvantages to this system, safety being a large one. I can think of a few of accidents where the carts plunged to the ground killing all inside. This system is flawed for real mass trans, please move on. I say our next thread idea is tellaporting. Its perfect gets everyone where every they want to go, little to build, I think its perfect.

[Haretip]

I would be curious about a cost analysis and life expectancy of the cables. Also, how far can a car go? Is there a practical limit to the length of the line? How do you power the AC? What if there is a long-term power outage, how do you disembark passengers between stations? What if someone is a little slow getting off the gon, will the system wait for them or shut the doors and carry them off? How fast is a gon? How many passengers can you carry in a gondola, or how many passengers can the system move in 1 hour? How is this better than monorail? Have ya considered monorail?

[aygriffith]

I was stuck in one over the San Diego Zoo for 5 hrs one time back in the late 80's. That was the last time I ever rode a cable car with the exception of at ski resorts.

I think a better idea, although less economically feasable from a construction standpoint, is to connect shorter distances with monorail. It is safer and has a better wow factor. Seattle has done it for years with the Worlds Fair Park to Westlake Center in DT Seattle. They even created the entity to expand it all over the city. They went as far as buying a considerable amount of ROW and then scrapped the plan and govermental organization running it. I read a study that if I remember right says that the monorail line from westlake center to worlds fair park is the only profitable self sustaining public trasportation system in the country. If that is true its says alot. The real draw for the line is that you can park at the Worlds Fair Park and ride into the heart of downtown. It also made Westlake center a viable downtown mall.

So you could do a line from Fair Park to downtown, that would probably the only viable line or the best to start with. You'd just have to convince people it was safe to park in Fair Park durring the day and ride the monorail downtown. I guess with free parking, you might be able to convince them either way. But the trip between DT and Fairpark isn't very scenic, but then thats true for alot of Dallas I guess.

[Sky Time]

There are chances of the carts falling off all over the world, but we still use them to get up mountains at Ski Resorts like Snow Bird and Steam Boat. Its been pretty well proven at those and the other Alpine resorts around the countries.

[gshelton91]

ok instead of an gondola what about the system used in Las Vegas at the Luxor --- see the two links they even talk about them being urban transit feeders

http://www.dcc.at/default.asp?pid=41&googlemenu=off

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/mandalay/

[Sky Time]

O thats cool, It would fit in nice connecting North Park Mall with North Park Place.

[downtownguy25]

If people are too lazy to walk that 10 min walk they would not take the train.

[ericthegardener]

If people are too lazy to walk that 10 min walk they would not take the train.

:errrr:

[downtownguy25]

someone who is not going to walk 2 blocks to the mall from the station would not wait 20 min for a train to show up. There is already bus service to the mall, why would the city waste the money on something like that.

[Sky Time]

Buss is for Mass Transit, not jumping from Dart Station too Mall to Double Tree, Buss Circuits dont work like that, which is why you need a TRAM like device to get from location to location.

[gshelton91]

I actually think people would walk... but i don't think they would under the current conditions. The walk is exposed and feels awkward and unsafe. To correct this, i think, would take a lot more money then a simple tram/people mover that allows people to make a simple connection.

I don't see this as something you would wait 20mins on either... i see this as something that you might weight 10 mins on. --- it all depends on how much of this area you want to connect.

Also when you think about the fuel/carbon savings from connecting this little area together it is really amazing.... If someone were to show at all three shopping areas and move their care 3 times... plus the savings from not having to drive around and look for a place to park.

[DTDdreamer]

Old thread but I haven't checked in a while so I thought I'd jump back in...


Normally, I would just throw down an invitation for any of you seriously involved in this discussion to purchase some crack cocaine from me at a good price, but as Aceplace seems to have become my inner conscious on posting ad hominem attacks and the fact that I don't actually sell crack cocaine, I'll refrain from doing so.

But, cable cars as serious public transit. Really. I mean, REALLY? Are you serious? I mean, you can't think of ANY negatives, REALLY?

Settle down dude. I simply posed the question. And I didn't say there were NO negatives, just that I couldn't think of any at the time. I still can't think of many negatives save cost, but any improvements to MT will have additional costs.


Have ya considered monorail?

Wouldn't this be MORE expensive than a cable system?


But, cable cars as serious public transit. Really.

I never suggested a single line that would run from the Glen Heights Park-N-Ride to Downtown Plano. I was thinking more of a point to point line as clarified by RobertB and SkyTime. Think Union Station to Bishop Arts.

The real (ground) Cable Cars in San Fran are not considered "serious" mass transit... especially by the locals... but they effectively, entertainingly (word?) , move people from Union Square to Ghirardelli Square, etc. It just adds to the diversity and interest of the MT system.