Turtle Creek | Reverchon @ Turtle Creek

[MarkL2023]

hadn't seen this anywhere else...

Great Gulf Group of Toronto plans hotel and residence high-rise on Turtle Creek

12:00 AM CST on Thursday, January 17, 2008

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News
stevebrown@dallasnews.com

A Canadian developer is working on plans for a new high-rise on Turtle Creek.

Toronto-based Great Gulf Group has tied up property at the corner of Fairmount Street and Turtle Creek Boulevard, where it hopes to build a combination residential and hotel building.

The prime corner lot is now occupied by a low-rise office complex.

"We are selling that property to a Canadian group that is going through the zoning process," said Dallas real estate broker Newt Walker. "They plan on doing a small hotel with residences on top."

Great Gulf Group is one of Canada's largest housing firms and is building condominiums in several locations in North America. The company has a $165 million condo project going up in Denver.

A spokeswoman in Great Gulf's Toronto office did not return phone calls seeking details about the Dallas project.

Great Gulf Group also owns Ashton Woods Homes, which builds houses in the Dallas area and other major U.S. markets.

The new tower is the latest such development planned along Turtle Creek near Uptown.

The office complex it will replace was built in 1959 as the regional office of Mutual of New York.

[elmstreetdallas]

This just in from SkyLife, Tucy, Uptown 72 and KesslerDweller:

"This project has ZERO chance of ever getting built." ;)

[berryhill]

Turtle Creek really could be one of the best places to live in the US if future development allows it. I have a question that I hope will be answered, as none of mine seem to be addressed: What other cities have areas like Turtle Creek? It really is one of my favorite places in the whole city, especially with the creek itself, the beautiful high rises, Lee Park, and Katy Trail. The Christmas lights around Lee Park were great.

[smudoode]

This just in from SkyLife, Tucy, Uptown 72 and KesslerDweller:

"This project has ZERO chance of ever getting built." ;)


Just keep fueling that recession!

[mrowl]

Turtle Creek really could be one of the best places to live in the US if future development allows it. I have a question that I hope will be answered, as none of mine seem to be addressed: What other cities have areas like Turtle Creek? It really is one of my favorite places in the whole city, especially with the creek itself, the beautiful high rises, Lee Park, and Katy Trail. The Christmas lights around Lee Park were great.

yep, the whole city of Vancouver. :D

[SkyLife]

This just in from SkyLife, Tucy, Uptown 72 and KesslerDweller:

"This project has ZERO chance of ever getting built." ;)

This just in from ElmStreetDallas:

"I'm getting my pom-poms and running over to Turtle Creek to celebrate."

Cheerleaders are always fun to watch. :not_ripe:

I think the rest of us will wait and see what's proposed. I'm only aware that their Denver high-rise condo 1401 Lawrence has languished for about 2 years. Other than that - they're a very good developer from Toronto trying their hand in a few US cities. I hope they're successful.

Oh, ElmStreetDallas - wear a sweater.

[AZDallasite]

Having worked for Ashton Woods and the Great Gulf Group in recent years, and knowing their financial situation right now, I would be surprised to see them actually build this.

[smudoode]

Having worked for Ashton Woods and the Great Gulf Group in recent years, and knowing their financial situation right now, I would be surprised to see them actually build this.

If this is true than why would they annouce it? There are sooooo many pessimists on this website!

[jsoto3]

What other cities have areas like Turtle Creek?
Kansas City has Brush Creek/Country Club Plaza south of downtown. It's more mixed-use (a lot more retail) than is Turtle Creek, but not quite as dense residentially.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=39.038686~-94.587779&style=h&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=15178326&encType=1

[rantanamo]

happens or doesn't, I admit I like reading announcements about at least the interest in Dallas.

[Tucy]

If this is true than why would they annouce it? There are sooooo many pessimists on this website!

Pay attention to these things for a while and you'll figure it all out. Far more developments are announced than are ever actually built. Even in times of free-flowing credit. It's just the way the development "game" is played. They announce a project to see how much interest they can generate. They continue to work on making plans for the project as they gauge interest. At various points along the way, the project may be killed. Some stay on life support longer than others... some proceed as far as clearing the site and opening a sales office before they are killed... occasionally construction will even be started... And some actually get built!

I have no idea or opinion on whether this particular project will get built. It is a little surprising that developers continue to announce upscale condo and hotel projects in Dallas where both of those markets are pretty seriously overbuiit, if I'm not mistaken. But that's what developers and builders do. Builders build. Developers develop.

[tamtagon]

It is a little surprising that developers continue to announce upscale condo and hotel projects in Dallas where both of those markets are pretty seriously overbuiit, if I'm not mistaken. But that's what developers and builders do. Builders build. Developers develop.

I think the upscale hotel market might need to take a breather, but the upscale condo market is still just getting its legs.

[Chevytexas]

:jester: I'm no engineer but isn't that land a little unstable for anything large enough? It's all in-fill and the actual limestone is waaay down --but I'm sure modern engineering (and city codes) might take care of that... There's an underground (or not so...) creek along that property line and across Maple is the same: leaf mulch and several infilled draws including Coon Springs which still flows. Maybe they'll do a thing on stilts.

[Sky Time]

What happened to Sky Life? is he asking around town?

[Uptown72]

The Canucks will build condos. They don't care about our economy! Put this on my "Will Build" list!

[aygriffith]

Sofitel??????

[TexasStar]

:jester: I'm no engineer but isn't that land a little unstable for anything large enough? It's all in-fill and the actual limestone is waaay down --but I'm sure modern engineering (and city codes) might take care of that... There's an underground (or not so...) creek along that property line and across Maple is the same: leaf mulch and several infilled draws including Coon Springs which still flows. Maybe they'll do a thing on stilts.

If they can build skyscrapers in New Orleans' muck, they can build them anywhere.

[Sky Time]

If they can build skyscrapers in New Orleans' muck, they can build them anywhere.

Most of Lower Manhattan in New York is built on what used to be the City Dump. The WTC (now FT) site is the last most southern part of true land in New York, everything south of that is built on garbage. Hell, Dubai made the worlds tallest Hotel on on a man made island. Japan ( i think) built an International Airport on a man made island at sea. Anything is possible.

[freewaytincan]

Japan ( i think) built an International Airport on a man made island at sea.

Yeah, it was them, Kansai Airport.

http://www.skyscrapers.cn/images/asia/jp/to_os_kansai-airport.jpg

[Phillip]

Turtle Creek really could be one of the best places to live in the US if future development allows it. I have a question that I hope will be answered, as none of mine seem to be addressed: What other cities have areas like Turtle Creek? It really is one of my favorite places in the whole city, especially with the creek itself, the beautiful high rises, Lee Park, and Katy Trail. The Christmas lights around Lee Park were great.
Other cities besides Dallas have Turtle Creek-like areas, to answer your question. Usually, their versions are denser, but anything with that much greenery and that many high-rises is really beautiful regardless of the density.

The first city that comes to mind is Kansas City--the area around Country Club Plaza reminds me the most of Turtle Creek, out of all the cities I've been to. Here are some photos I took from a trip to that part of the city this past March:

http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398040_70.jpg
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398043_1010.jpg
http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398044_8320.jpg
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398123_5455.jpg
http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398124_5776.jpg
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398041_402.jpg
http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398042_710.jpg
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398045_8605.jpg
http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398048_9526.jpg
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398053_6242.jpg
http://photos-d.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398055_6761.jpg
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398129_7575.jpg
http://photos-c.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398130_7876.jpg
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v65/138/110/3108863/n3108863_31398133_1538.jpg

St. Louis has the Central West End, which is on the city side of Forest Park. The other side of the park also resembles Turtle Creek. It's one of the prettiest parts of St. Louis, and it's just a few blocks down Skinker Blvd from where I went to school. The Central West End has older historic high-rise apartment buildings, while the other side of the park has newer ones. Unfortunately I don't have self-taken photos of the area, so these will have to do:

The Dorchester (http://www.vipstl.com/community.cfm?a=1&h=11&c=21)
Parc Frontenac (http://www.vipstl.com/community.cfm?r=1&a=1&h=11&c=15)
West End City Apartments (http://www.vipstl.com/community.cfm?r=1&a=1&h=11&c=63)

Chicago's Gold Coast is also similar to the Turtle Creek area but busier, denser, and by the lake.

Then you have New York, with Central Park and the Upper West Side--much, much denser, but you all already knew that.

I know Philadelphia has one of these types of areas, too. Haven't ever been to Philly, though.

And Houston's Allen Parkway between Downtown and River Oaks is a work in progress, though the Memorial Park-area high-rises are somewhat similar too.

[Sky Time]

O, Washington DC was built in a swamp

[SkyLife]

O, Washington DC was built in a swamp

And it still is.

[bshiker]

Only a small part of it.

[carousel]

Sure, What's Another Destroyed Dallas Landmark, More or Less?
Wed Feb 13 2008, at 03:32:11 PM
John Wheeler

If a Canadian developer gets its way, this Howard Meyer-designed building on Turtle Creek will become a hotel-condo high-rise with a restaurant.Local architect Cliff Welch sends word today of another important Dallas building on the chopping block: the Howard Meyer-designed office building at 2505 Turtle Creek Boulevard. If you don't know anything about Meyer, plenty of biographical info about the famed architect can be found courtesy the Texas State Historical Association and in the University of Texas Alexander Architectural Archives -- the latter of which refers to him as "one of the pioneers of modern architecture in Texas." Doug Newby also has a page celebrating his work around Dallas. Also available: his sketches for Temple Emanu-El.

From what I discovered today the building's being rezoned to make way for a boutique hotel with affixed high-rise condos that would, according to the proposed plans for the property, obliterate current neighborhood residents' view of Turtle Creek. Unfair Park has also learned the Canadian developer wants to build a restaurant on the property, which neighbors fear -- chiefly because of the increased traffic and because it's in a dry area of town one block away from Reverchon Park.

[jsoto3]

Please post links when quoting articles and blog posts.

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2008/02/local_architect_cliff_welch_se.php

[psukhu]

Why doesn't Dallas have one election and make the whole city "wet"?

A friend of mine just moved to Preston/Frankford (in the Dallas city limits), but he has to drive or take the bus up Preston to Plano to buy beer.

[Smelly]

Why doesn't Dallas have one election and make the whole city "wet"?

A friend of mine just moved to Preston/Frankford (in the Dallas city limits), but he has to drive or take the bus up Preston to Plano to buy beer.


Because that would just make to much sense.

[SkyLife]

I think this project already has a Thread:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=7552

[warlock55]

Because that would just make to much sense.

Hehheh, yeah...just ask Irving how easy THAT is. :rolleyes:

[dfwcre8tive]

Here's the location on the map:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=2505+Turtle+Creek+Blvd,+Dallas,+TX+75219,+U SA&ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=32.8017,-96.809828&ll=32.80202,-96.809257&spn=0.002079,0.003884&t=h&z=19&cbp=1,370.7397484451449,,0,5.167808569455384

Cool little building... I walked by it last weekend.

[aygriffith]

The Capella Hotel and Residences
2505 Turtle Creek Blvd

Main Features of Development Proposal

A Mixed-use project containing up to 70 luxury residential units ranging from 2,300 to 8,000 sq ft and up to 70 hotel units to be managed as a six-star Capella Hotel. The program will also contain a small high end restaurant located primarily along Fairmount Street. A spa facility will also be a component of the project. The main entrance to the development will be located off of Fairmount Street.

The current zoning ordinance permits a maximum Floor Area Ratio (FAR) of 4.5 times lot area, or 268,000 sq ft. We are requesting an increase in FAR from 4.5 to approximately 4.98 times lot area, or 297,000 sq ft. This represents an increase over teh exisiting floor area permissions by 29,000 sq ft. This additional floor area is required to facilitate the combined luxury hotel and residential programs.

A conventional condominium could be built within the existing 240' height limit. While we are decreasing the total allowable number of units that could be built we are requesting an increase in building height from 240' to 285'. There are two main factors contributing the increase in overall height: Higher than usual floor-to-ceiling heights (to respond to the demands of the luxury condominium market), and increased floor thickness between the residential and hotel floors to accomodate the change in structure and a higher first floor to accomodate the hotel lobby.

From the start of this project, we have conisdered a design that would result in the least impact on the homeowners of 2525 Turtle Creek Blvd. This includes the following:
-Setting back the building beyond the 10' minimum requirements
-Committing to provide all parking below grade
-Curving the building to increase the distance between the development and existing buildings at 2525 Turtle Creek Blvd


One of my partners in crime faxed me this and the pictures from the proposal they sent the folks at 2525 Turtle Creek. I will try to come across a scanner and scan the photo of the building and the current floorplans after the revisions made at the request of concerned Turtle Creek residences.

Capella Hotels are like nothing Dallas has ever seen. It would say alot about the perception of Dallas as a strong luxury hotel market if they built this. I believe this would be their first US hotel...

[rantanamo]

there are only 5 stars given by a 3rd party after hotels are open.

[Kelley USA]

They have a hotel opening in Telluride, CO in Winter of 08... Very impressive to say the least!

[JohnMcKee]

The Capella Hotel and Residences
The current zoning ordinance permits a maximum Floor Area Ratio (FAR) of 4.5 times lot area, or 268,000 sq ft. We are requesting an increase in FAR from 4.5 to approximately 4.98 times lot area, or 297,000 sq ft. This represents an increase over teh exisiting floor area permissions by 29,000 sq ft. This additional floor area is required to facilitate the combined luxury hotel and residential programs.

A conventional condominium could be built within the existing 240' height limit. While we are decreasing the total allowable number of units that could be built we are requesting an increase in building height from 240' to 285'.

I wouldn't count on a increase. I can tell you right now that there is a large organzied group of property owners on Turtle Creek that are dead set on not having any height increases on that property and are already expecting and prepared to fight this tooth and nail.

[SkyLife]

The 40 additional feet or 30,000 sq. ft. would make a difference? How? What will they be fighting about? Or is this another fight just for the sake of fighting? Some people just have too much free time, I guess.

[JohnMcKee]

The 40 additional feet or 30,000 sq. ft. would make a difference? How? What will they be fighting about? Or is this another fight just for the sake of fighting? Some people just have too much free time, I guess.

I'm not directly involved but my understanding is the heights were set by the Turtle Creek master plan years and years ago and they aren't so much fighting the height as much as fighting for the Turtle Creek master plan to continue to be followed. The concern is that if they start letting the master plan be violated that the whole deal is at risk, not just the height on that one property. I think that is a valid concern.

We all know that if one developer gets a variance that other developers will ask for one as well.

[SkyLife]

[QUOTE=JohnMcKee ... my understanding is the heights were set by the Turtle Creek master plan years and years ago ...[/QUOTE]

How many years and years? Dallas is growing up now. They can grow up, too. I'm thinking about 40 feet would be nice.

[carousel]

I'm not directly involved but my understanding is the heights were set by the Turtle Creek master plan years and years ago and they aren't so much fighting the height as much as fighting for the Turtle Creek master plan to continue to be followed. The concern is that if they start letting the master plan be violated that the whole deal is at risk, not just the height on that one property. I think that is a valid concern.

We all know that if one developer gets a variance that other developers will ask for one as well.

Dallas needs to grow up. Strictly adhering to a master plan that was authored yrs and yrs ago for the sake of seeing it through sounds a bit ridiculous.

[elmstreetdallas]

2004 is "years and years ago"?

From the Turtle Creek Association web site:

"Undertaken by Antonio DiMambro & Associates and completed in 2004, the Master Plan assesses Turtle Creek’s existing conditions, defines a vision for the area, offers opportunities to create awareness, and allows for support of a comprehensive fundraising effort."

http://www.turtlecreekassociation.org/masterplan.html

Instead of worrying about 40 feet of extra height on what at least appears to be a fantastic new building, Turtle Creek area property owners need to concentrate on what's really important. Like cleaning up the actual creek, which especially after a rainstorm, is absolutely disgusting.

Here's the perfect opportunity for area property owners to contribute in a meaningful way. The annual Turtle Creek Spring Cleanup Event:

http://www.turtlecreekassociation.org/content/2008_TCA_spring_crawl.pdf

[JohnMcKee]

OK, this is second hand information but it was from someone that was actually at a neighborhood meeting by the developer. Since I didn't hear it with my own ears I won't claim complete accuracy.

The property currently sits on a dry zone of Dallas (i.e. no sale of alcohol). The developer is wanting to put a bar there with hotel and condominiums along with a height variance. What I have heard is that without pre-selling the condos, a process by their own admission will take at least 2 years, they are currently unable to fund this project as is presented now.

Here as the big problem, that property sits adjacent to 3 parks and numerous personal residences. They are asking for the dry zone to be removed and a height variance to build what I have heard on paper really looks like a great project. However, they can present whatever they want as far as what they want to built or envision building, it doesn't mean they have the capability of building it. Furthermore, these variances aren't attached to a specific project, they are for the property, they can change their mind at any point and build whatever they want assuming it fits (the now greatly expanded) zoning or sell it to whoever wants to built whatever.

That's what is at issue here, once these variances are issued they can't be taken back and there is absolutely no guarantee of what will actually be constructed, especially when construction financing hasn't actually been obtained. I can't see why the community should be expected to give something up without an actual guarantee of what they are getting in return. What if they get approval for this goes though and they decide to build the worlds largest Hooters on this property instead of an upscale hotel/condo/restaurant and after the variances are granted, what's to stop them?

[jsoto3]

Furthermore, these variances aren't attached to a specific project, they are for the property, they can change their mind at any point and build whatever they want assuming it fits (the now greatly expanded) zoning or sell it to whoever wants to built whatever.

That's what is at issue here, once these variances are issued they can't be taken back and there is absolutely no guarantee of what will actually be constructed, especially when construction financing hasn't actually been obtained. I can't see why the community should be expected to give something up without an actual guarantee of what they are getting in return. What if they get approval for this goes though and they decide to build the worlds largest Hooters on this property instead of an upscale hotel/condo/restaurant and after the variances are granted, what's to stop them?
As was done at 2500 McKinney, the developer and the City can create a zoning subdistrict within the existing PD that strictly limits what can be built on the property to what was originally proposed should the property change hands. This would make it very difficult for another future developer to build something other than what was originally proposed to obtain the variance.

[JohnMcKee]

As was done at 2500 McKinney, the developer and the City can create a zoning subdistrict within the existing PD that strictly limits what can be built on the property to what was originally proposed should the property change hands. This would make it very difficult for another future developer to build something other than what was originally proposed to obtain the variance.

Are they asking for that?

Right now the developer is not asking for a zoning subdistrict or anything that holds them to what they are proposing right now. I don't know what the situation is with 2500 McKinney but I have been told there is no way to hold the zoning to a specific project.

What they are asking for is a varrience that allows them to construct a bar. They might be saying that they are asking to build a condo and hotel with a bar and that might be their intention but what they are presently requesting does not hold them to that and once that zoning change is complete they are free to contruct whatever kind of bar they want on that property even if there is no hotel or condo, they might decide that it is more profitable to built the worlds largest Hooters on that property and there would be nothing to stop them.

[sterling]

The Sasaki masterplan for The Arts District has been 90% ignored from the beginning. I would argue that was a mistake. As for Turtle Creek, they'll probably get what they deserve for the same reasons.

[BarbulaM1]

Great Gulf has just raised the prices on their condos in Denver by possibly 5%, they seem to be getting everything together to start construction. I visted their full condo model that is on the site currently, very very nice construction, will be interesting to see what they do in Dallas.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_8709780

[ksig121]

the worlds largest Hooters ...

The world's largest Hooters already exists in the West End. Let's meet Lisa ...http://www.goosehooterstour.com/westend_lisa/westend_lisahomepage.html

:smokecld:

[SkyLife]

Great Gulf has just raised the prices on their condos in Denver by possibly 5%, they seem to be getting everything together to start construction. I visted their full condo model that is on the site currently, very very nice construction, will be interesting to see what they do in Dallas.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_8709780

Their Denver project is more than a year late and start of construction is not in the near future. Recently the offered $25,000 in "free" upgrades and a reduction in Deposit amounts. This is the email I received 2 weeks ago:


Good Afternoon!

1401 Lawrence, soon to be the tallest residential tower in Denver, is sure to be a hallmark address for the city, and now is the time to take action! The investment is sure to be a sound one, particularly as pricing will increase by as much as 5% on April 15.

Despite negative press about the housing market, Denvers downtown is booming, particularly 14th Street. In fact, Rich Grant, spokesman for the Denver Metro Convention and Visitors Bureau, recently said Fourteenth Street is going to be one of the biggest streets in the city. And the Denver Post recently reported that during this construction boom, its the residential projects that will change Denvers skyline.

Buyers will receive $25,000 in upgrade selections. While upgrades are being offered, our deposit program has been priced down---suites selling for under $2 million will now only require a $25,000 deposit, and deposits for suites over $2 million have been lowered to $50,000.

The sales center features an artfully designed and fully furnished 2595 square foot model suite, a Dale Chihuly sculpture and real time panoramic views from every floor. We are open Monday through Friday 12-6, Saturday and Sunday 12:30 to 5:30, other times by appointment. Visit our enhanced website (www.1401lawrence.com) at any time, too. It provides all floorplans and stunning images of the five-star amenities.

Regards!

Dee Chirafisi, Joanne Kleinstein, Ken Miller, Kelly Rose

303-436-1401

The bank will love that 2-3% Deposits. When I called they indicated they were almost 50% sold. No, 50% of the units have 2-3% "refundable" deposits. The chatter in Denver is that this project has less than a 50/50 chance of getting financed.

I hope their Dallas project goes better than Denver.

[Ersatz]

Does anybody no anything about these? I nabbed it from Briggs-Freeman when they weren't looking. (he he)http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/jdbdallas/REVERCHON-II.jpg

http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll177/jdbdallas/REVERCHON-I.jpg

[BigD5349]

A-ha. This must be the building planned for the tract of land that's located directly across from the entrance to Reverchon Park on Fairmount Street. There's a one-story 50s era building there now that's been vacated and has a rezoning sign posted out front.

[BigD5349]

I was on a driveby here a couple of weeks ago and snapped a quick pic out the car window... I intend to go back later to get better pics. I always liked this building...


http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6069/reverchon1xc2.jpg

[Ersatz]

That is a nice building. Great site for a skyscraper though.