Upscale Hotels and Condominiums

[Doublewide]

I am shocked by how many upscale hotels and condos have been built in Dallas over the past couple of years. I know we have The Mandarin being built here. What else is going to be built here? Kind of hard to imagine how Dallas can keep sustaining all this growth.

[dfwcre8tive]

Here's a good chart about Dallas' "High Life" courtesy of D Magazine:

http://www.dmagazine.com/Media/RealChart/highrise_chart.html

and here's a video of a unit in the Vendome:
http://www.dmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=MultiPublishing&mod=PublishingTitles&mid=7155F7796F354F21B1183937D847D6DF&tier=4&id=452B1904BF354D0FBC0E9BC211AFFFDA

[KesslerDweller]

Word on the street is that the Mandarin has been put on hold until 2012.

[aygriffith]

Maybe that will encourage Sofitel to not back off their plans to build in Dallas...

[grantboston]

Word on the street is that the Mandarin has been put on hold until 2012.

That's troubling for obvious reasons. But I also wonder if perhaps this is a symptom of Mandarin expanding too quickly as a brand. They're expanding like crazy for a hotel of its stature, I wonder if concerns about "diluting the brand" played any role in the decision to (potentially) hold off on Mandarin Dallas?

[KesslerDweller]

I think it has to do more with the state of the Dallas high end condo market. There is a lot of product coming online in Dallas with more in the hopper. I think Mandarin is smart for waiting. Once you start, you can stop building because of market conditions (you can but not a good idea for the investors).

Everyone should stop building and let the inventory get absorbed before building more high end buildings.



That's troubling for obvious reasons. But I also wonder if perhaps this is a symptom of Mandarin expanding too quickly as a brand. They're expanding like crazy for a hotel of its stature, I wonder if concerns about "diluting the brand" played any role in the decision to (potentially) hold off on Mandarin Dallas?

[LH_Newbie]

I wonder when the "affordable" housing boom will start in downtown? :)

[grantboston]

I would still love for DTD to get a Standard Hotel. I think they could do something really nice in a converted building down there. Does anyone know if they're being considered in any of the refurbs in planning?

http://www.standardhotels.com

[SkyLife]

I think it has to do more with the state of the Dallas high end condo market. There is a lot of product coming online in Dallas with more in the hopper. I think Mandarin is smart for waiting. Once you start, you can stop building because of market conditions (you can but not a good idea for the investors).

Everyone should stop building and let the inventory get absorbed before building more high end buildings.

It will take Mandarin 2-3 years to complete construction, so it's about the market in 2010 they're thinking about. It's hard to develop luxury high-rise projects and guess the "market conditions" 4-5 years in the future.

It seems to me that Perot needs to get more people living in Victory Park so the retailers there have some customers. I remember when they began heralding VP they talked about 10,000 new residents, later revised to 6,000. They've added about 600 units so far. Cirque will help - hopefully there is a Cirque-2. Retailers have been complaining. Free rent for a year is already up for most of them.

The 24-hour "times square" idea needs a lot more people. Not people passing through for a hockey or basketball game, but living in the area.

[DallasMan]

^Have to agree with this...VP needs more residents - it is still quiet when I go down there, unless there is a game that night. I wouldn't think those retailers would be doing well at all!

[elmstreetdallas]

Where did this "10,000" number for Victory Park come from? The goal for the central business district has always been 10,000 residents. NOT for Victory Park.

[Tnekster]

^Have to agree with this...VP needs more residents - it is still quiet when I go down there, unless there is a game that night. I wouldn't think those retailers would be doing well at all!

It does seem quiet but so did West Village when it first opened. It takes time to build these things and cetainly adding a large number of units as will happen with Cirque will help but I do agree they need more. The big public events like Big D NYE help too. But I am still surprised how many people don't have a clue what this area is.

[KesslerDweller]

Define "afforable"?

size and price


I wonder when the "affordable" housing boom will start in downtown? :)

[LH_Newbie]

Define "afforable"?

size and price

I'm thinking in the $200-225/sq ft rang. While not considered "affordable" by the exurbs standard, this would be very much considered affordable for a downtown setting in Dallas. I know there was one development in the CBD that was marketing at $170 if memory serves me, but it had some strange, strange layouts. I would have to believe there would be people willing to purchase 600-700 sq ft 1BR or 900-1000 sq ft 2BR places at this price range (so the range would be $120K-225K). Is this even feasible? I'm just pulling these numbers out of my butt. :)

[SkyLife]

Where did this "10,000" number for Victory Park come from? The goal for the central business district has always been 10,000 residents. NOT for Victory Park.

From the Dallas Morning News 12.21.07 Victory, Glorypark play different positions in Dallas-Fort Worth:

"At the 75-acre Victory Park, more than 4,000 residential units are planned, most of them in high-rise buildings."

When the Victory Park plans were first presented the number was 10,000 units, then a few years ago 6,000 units - now, they're suggesting 4,000 units.

For new retailers in that area - they need more residents, many, many more.

[sogod]

From the Dallas Morning News 12.21.07 Victory, Glorypark play different positions in Dallas-Fort Worth:

"At the 75-acre Victory Park, more than 4,000 residential units are planned, most of them in high-rise buildings."

When the Victory Park plans were first presented the number was 10,000 units, then a few years ago 6,000 units - now, they're suggesting 4,000 units.

For new retailers in that area - they need more residents, many, many more.

I always thought they said 4,000 units.

[KesslerDweller]

If you are willing to buy 1,800 to 2,000 square feet of space at $200 a square foot, there are a ton of possibilities around downtown Dallas in the townhome market. I would rule high rise condos out - but you will get more bang for your buck in a townhome.




I'm thinking in the $200-225/sq ft rang. While not considered "affordable" by the exurbs standard, this would be very much considered affordable for a downtown setting in Dallas. I know there was one development in the CBD that was marketing at $170 if memory serves me, but it had some strange, strange layouts. I would have to believe there would be people willing to purchase 600-700 sq ft 1BR or 900-1000 sq ft 2BR places at this price range (so the range would be $120K-225K). Is this even feasible? I'm just pulling these numbers out of my butt. :)

[aygriffith]

It will take Mandarin 2-3 years to complete construction, so it's about the market in 2010 they're thinking about. It's hard to develop luxury high-rise projects and guess the "market conditions" 4-5 years in the future.

Take in mind that the The Residences at the Mandarin Oriental were being marketed from 1 million and up. Thats alot to pay for a one bedroom place especially in Dallas when you can live in the Park Cities or even a slum in Preston Hollow. I think urban living is appealing but at that price for such a small space??

[Uptown72]

The average price of an apartment in NYC is under $850,000. Given, the average apartment complex has no concierge, no spa and not much else, but come on....$1 million at the cheapest?

I would rather have a brand new duplex around the Park Cities with about 3k SF (and an elevator as well) for $850,000 than have a shoebox 1 bedroom for $1M+ in the Mandarin. But then, I'm not single and 28 anymore!

[SkyLife]

I always thought they said 4,000 units.

2005:

Houston builder also is working on rental project near Crescent
10:52 PM CST on Tuesday, January 18, 2005
By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

A Houston builder is joining the Victory building boom. Hanover Co. is planning a 28-story apartment tower, according to Ross Perot Jr., whose Hillwood Capital is a co-owner and developer of the Victory project near downtown. It will be on Houston Street near American Airlines Center. The Houston builder is already working on the Ashton, a 21-story building a few blocks away at 2215 Cedar Springs Road across from the Crescent.

"Hanover is now coming into the project to build another 28-story tower of multi-family for rent product," Mr. Perot told builders meeting in Florida this weekend. Mr. Perot said Victory will ultimately have 5,000 condos and apartments. "You are now seeing a huge urban residential redevelopment boom," he said. "It's a trend that surprised us." Hanover officials confirmed Tuesday that they're planning the Victory building. "The Hanover Co. has interest in this site and is currently in the early phase of the due diligence cycle," said Hanover's Leah MacDougal. "We are not ready to comment further."

Prior to 2005, in the Victory Park Master Plans the reference was 10,000 "Residents" and 6,000 units. I believe that was the original goal. Now, it appears to be 4,000 units. From 6,000 to 5,000 to 4,000.

600 so far - 3,400 to go.

[Stevo50]

The average price of an apartment in NYC is under $850,000. Given, the average apartment complex has no concierge, no spa and not much else, but come on....$1 million at the cheapest?

I would rather have a brand new duplex around the Park Cities with about 3k SF (and an elevator as well) for $850,000 than have a shoebox 1 bedroom for $1M+ in the Mandarin. But then, I'm not single and 28 anymore!


I second that emotion.

[JohnMcKee]

The average price of an apartment in NYC is under $850,000. Given, the average apartment complex has no concierge, no spa and not much else, but come on....$1 million at the cheapest?

I would rather have a brand new duplex around the Park Cities with about 3k SF (and an elevator as well) for $850,000 than have a shoebox 1 bedroom for $1M+ in the Mandarin. But then, I'm not single and 28 anymore!

Some people don't have to make compromises, case in point my upstairs neighbors 13,000 sqft penthouse, I think that is the market that the Mandarin is after.