Your 2008 Top 3 Wish List

[BigD5349]

Which preservation/redevelopment projects would you most like to see announced in 2008? What would be your top 3 choices and why? There's still alot to do. If there's another potential project not listed, feel free to chime in with it.

1. Praetorian Bldg, Main St
2. Derelict Main & Elm St storefronts
3. Statler Hilton/Grand Hotel & Old Dallas Public Library, Commerce St
4. Knights of Pythias, Deep Ellum
5. Crozier Tech/Dallas High School, Bryan St
6. Purse Bldg, Elm St
7. West End Marketplace
8. Butler Bros Buiding, South Ervay St
9. Continental Bldg, Commerce St
10. Atmos Energy/Lone Star Gas Complex, Harwood St
11. Old City Hall/Police HQ, Harwood St
12. Tower Petroleum Bldg, Elm St
13. Old Hard Rock Cafe, McKinney Ave
14. Masonic Temple, Harwood St
15. 508 Park Avenue

[SDORN]

Knights of Pythias Number1
Building is my favorite love to see loft /offices
Crozier Tech 2
This building deserves to be saved, why, It was built in the early 1900's and it has alot of charm

masonic temple 3 classic architecture
any other reason?
well we don't many historical building left in this city Save em all if you can.

all but one are on flickr page.

[dfwcre8tive]

Here are my top 3:

1. Dallas Grand Hotel restoration -- perfect location with the upcoming park, will add a lot of vibrancy to this part of downtown.
2. Knights of Pythias Deep Ellum restoration/conversion -- another good location, historically significant, and will help Deep Ellum's redevelopment.
3. 211 North Ervay conversion to residential (but leave the aqua exterior!) -- good location for redeveloped retail and additional residences. It's the last colorful 1950s building downtown and compliments the wide range of surrounding architectural styles.

and to round out the top 10 here are a few others:

4. 1604 Main conversion to residential
5. Mercantile Commerce conversion to residential
6. Butler Brothers conversion to residential
7.reconstruction of Hall of Religions -- Texas Music Center in Fair Park
8. Praetorian Building restoration and conversion to residential
9. Thomas Building conversion to residential
10. Dallas High School restoration/conversion

[urbanite07]

1. City Lights
2. City Lights
3. City Lights

[Tucy]

1. Construction starts on Victory Tower/Mandarin
2. Construction starts on Museum Tower
3. Construction starts on Woodall Rodgers Park

[Rob]

Since the question was about RE-development, I'd go with the old school on Bryan and Knights of Pythias as my tops - mostly for their proximity to where I live.

[BigD5349]

The downtown area still needs a series of catalyst projects, so I would pick these:

1. Knights of Pythias, a sorely needed catalyst for Deep Ellum
2. West End Marketplace, a catalyst for the West End and gateway to Victory
3. Refurb of the derelict storefronts on Main/Elm
4. Butler Bros as a gateway project to Southern DT and the Farmer's Market.

Those storefronts along Main and Elm really stick in my craw. I realize that the ownership is fragmented, but Elm St in particular looks like a skid row. I'm hoping that the opening of the Merc and the new DT parks will flip the economic equation and lead to the restoration of these properties. We also need these storefronts to fuel a continued rebirth downtown.

Butler Bros is important, too, because it exacerbates the homeless problem in Southern Downtown and, I feel, contributes to the isolation of Farmer's Market.

I also hope the city gives Fair Park another shot of investment in the next bond program.

My sentimental fav is the Tower Petroleum Building. I love that building, it's beautiful. Also, the old Dallas High School, because my parents and most of my aunts and uncles went to school there.

[Mballar]

1. Crozier Tech/Dallas High School, Bryan St
2. Derelict Main & Elm St storefronts
3. Tower Petroleum Bldg, Elm St

[BigD5349]

3. 211 North Ervay conversion to residential (but leave the aqua exterior!) -- good location for redeveloped retail and additional residences. It's the last colorful 1950s building downtown and compliments the wide range of surrounding architectural styles.

Good point. I'd also love to see the Adam's Mark and 1505 Elm restore their blue facades. I'm still mystified about why battleship gray is supposed to make these 1950s style buildings more attractive.

[UrbanBiker]

1. Old City Hall/Police HQ, Harwood Street
2. Statler Hilton/Grand Hotel & Old Dallas Public Library, Commerce St.
3. Corrigan Tower, 1900 Pacific

[gc]

The downtown area still needs a series of catalyst projects, so I would pick these:

1. Knights of Pythias, a sorely needed catalyst for Deep Ellum
2. West End Marketplace, a catalyst for the West End and gateway to Victory
3. Refurb of the derelict storefronts on Main/Elm
4. Butler Bros as a gateway project to Southern DT and the Farmer's Market.


Well said.

Here are mine:

1. West End Marketplace, a catalyst for the West End and gateway to Victory & Arts District
2. Refurb of the derelict storefronts on Main/Elm/Commerce
3. Two major corporate DTD relocations, bringing several thousand more workers to the city center

[Uptown72]

1. All of Downtown
2. Commerce/Elm (Deep Ellum)
3. Casa Linda Shopping Center
4. Industrial Blvd.

[elmstreetdallas]

1. All of Downtown

So all 800 acres of the central business district need to be redeveloped?

[aygriffith]

The people I have chatted with at Forest City that work in the Comerica building still say they have every intention to start the Contenental Building as soon as the new Mercantile building is done... As for the Mercantile Commerice building and Atmos complex they don't seem as bullish at the moment (but then who does when it comes to condo conversions).

1. Grand Hotel/Dallas Public Library
2. Atmos Gas Complex
3. Butler Brothers Building
4. Put Major Shopping Tennants in Mercantile Building and Main & Commerce St.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Crozier Tech 2
This building deserves to be saved, why, It was built in the early 1900's and it has a lot of charmSpeaking as someone who attended high school there, that puppy was ready for the bulldozer 30 years ago.

[FoUTASportscaster]

As for the Mercantile Commerice building and Atmos complex they don't seem as bullish at the moment

I haven't heard of anything that states that Forest City has the rights/property of the Merc Commerce. The only thing I have read is that they have the Merc block, the Continental, the Atmos Complex, and the block just to the south. Has this one been purchased.

Also FYI, the Atmos Complex will be apartments, not condos in every press release I have read.


1. Grand Hotel/Dallas Public Library
2. Atmos Gas Complex
3. Butler Brothers Building
4. Put Major Shopping Tennants in Mercantile Building and Main & Commerce St.

Solid list here. Good news is, this list is scheduled to be complete/underway in 2008.

[aygriffith]

Solid list here. Good news is, this list is scheduled to be complete/underway in 2008.

Bisno Development Co LLC is all but gone from everything I know. They have quite a bit of excess condos they can't unload on the West Coast. They were the people doing the Butler Brother's Bulding and the Skylofts development... Is someone else doing Butler Brother's now? These 3 developments are essential to the east end of downtown and will elevate the whole area.

[FoUTASportscaster]

I heard from the property manager at 500 S Ervay that they (generic, not any entity in specific) would restart conversion in February.

[trolleygirl]

Will somebody plase tell me what is so great about the Dallas Grand Hotel? Maybe it's just preference bit I think it's an eyesore.

As far as Croszier Tech/Dallas HS, I'm sorry bout I think you can't do half and half- the same goes for St. Ann's. Either demolish is or restore it. But there's no point in "saving" half of a building is it's already mostly destroyed. Tear the sucker down already.

Am FTR, I am a big fan of historic preservation and Dallas needs to get a jump on making its list and getting those buildings that are in jeopardy nominated already. Why is it that Preservation operates in crisis mode, like with the Hard Rock Cafe? Like everybody in Dallas didn't already know that the building had some sort of historic significance?? And then at the last minute, Preservation Dallas is trying so "save" it, like with the old dorm that was just torn down on Haskell.

Message to Preservation Dallas: stop it! get on the ball and get ahead of the game already. You already have your lists so get busy putting those buildings into protected status!

[SkyLife]

Will somebody plase tell me what is so great about the Dallas Grand Hotel? Maybe it's just preference bit I think it's an eyesore.

As far as Croszier Tech/Dallas HS, I'm sorry bout I think you can't do half and half- the same goes for St. Ann's. Either demolish is or restore it. But there's no point in "saving" half of a building is it's already mostly destroyed. Tear the sucker down already.

Am FTR, I am a big fan of historic preservation and Dallas needs to get a jump on making its list and getting those buildings that are in jeopardy nominated already. Why is it that Preservation operates in crisis mode, like with the Hard Rock Cafe? Like everybody in Dallas didn't already know that the building had some sort of historic significance?? And then at the last minute, Preservation Dallas is trying so "save" it, like with the old dorm that was just torn down on Haskell.

Message to Preservation Dallas: stop it! get on the ball and get ahead of the game already. You already have your lists so get busy putting those buildings into protected status!

It's a piece of junk. It makes no sense to "restore" it. It never has. That's why we get these silly "announcements" that it is purchased and will be brought back to life. The latest was from Kaaydah Schatten who promised $50 million in rehab. She works for a Title company in North Dallas. She also claimed to be the "spirit" behind the downtown parks. Please. The Dallas News and Steve Brown (nose) and Pegasus News took her seriously - two times. Nothing happened.

Just tear it down and use the land - I would like to think we've gotten better at development and we can deliver something better. The building, when retro-fitted with HVAC will have 7.5 foot ceilings. Nobody wants that - not even student housing.

Knock it down - the sooner the better. Only an idiot would waste real money on that building.

Is there an idiot?

[Mballar]

Knock it down - the sooner the better. Only an idiot would waste real money on that building.

Is there an idiot?
There are some who want to preserve the building because of its historical importance. I have yet to see an alternative proposal that would outweigh the benefit of keeping it around and renovating it. May be you have a proposal that you'd like to put forth, though.

[SkyLife]

There are some who want to preserve the building because of its historical importance. I have yet to see an alternative proposal that would outweigh the benefit of keeping it around and renovating it. May be you have a proposal that you'd like to put forth, though.

If it had value and "historical importance" as you have suggested - someone would have come forward by now.

It's a decaying, out-of-date building that would require too much money to make it code-compliant. Get on with it already. Knock it down - the land has some value. The building is worthless. Save your pictures and memories.

If Downtown Dallas is ever going to be desirable, everyone will need to grow up and embrace progress. This building has been vacant for long enough. The land has value - that's all. Wake up and start building.

[tamtagon]

I like the way it looks. Still really hard for me to believe it will be rennovated into a 5 star hotel, as big as it is.

[FoUTASportscaster]

If Downtown Dallas is ever going to be desirable, everyone will need to grow up and embrace progress. This building has been vacant for long enough. The land has value - that's all. Wake up and smell the Appraiser.

This has been the mantra of Dallas for 150 years. It has led us to a less-than-desireable downtown, even by American standards.

I say to you, grow up and embrace your history. As long as their are surface parking lots, there is zero need to tear down anything.

BTW, the property has a new owner for the grand, and there are premit notices on the buildings windows. You may want to tap those brakes just a little.

[aygriffith]

I like the way it looks. Still really hard for me to believe it will be rennovated into a 5 star hotel, as big as it is.

Well most likely due to the size of the hotel it will be at best 4 star, which due to its unique style is still a big gain for downtown. This is unless they tear down some walls and do condo conversion on this building. Which could let the property go from 700 rooms to a smaller more manageable 200 to 250 which if properly developed could attract a more boutique hotelier.

As for Mr. Skylife... If you tear this building down and the adjacent old library what do we have to gain? I'm guessing the same "announcements" you complain about 5 times over again over 10 years for a very large, very ugly, very promenant parking lot or worse fenced gravel lot. There are other instances of hotels with the exact same design from the 1950's being redone and being popular hotels. The Doubletree Metropolitain Midtown Manhattan is an excellent example of this same very 1950's large hotel being redone and being very successful. I'm sure the airconditioning issues can be figured out. The real issue with this is it is a Hospitality project... This isn't the 1980's anymore and hospitality investment companies can't use tons of junk bonds to build these grandeous 3/4 star properties. I think we forget that most of these large DFW tower hotels were built this way. Its much more cautious obtaining financing these days unless you have a very weathly investor like Mr. Headington(?) who put all that money into the Joule Hotel on Main St.

I don't always agree with FOUTASportcaster's views on everything, I think he's right on the money on this one. I stoped parking in the St Paul garage because I wanted to be back in a garage with tunnel access so I haven't driven by it as much and seen the new development signs in the windows. That is very exciting!

As for Butler Brothers... I hope they are right about Feb or even 2008 in general. This building is a mecca for the homeless and DT stands to gain alot from disallowing them from using it.

[Uptown72]

Ok...ALMOST all of downtown. I've seen better development in Harlem...and that's before the revitalization began there!

[INTX dave]

Knock it down - the land has some value. The building is worthless.

If Downtown Dallas is ever going to be desirable, everyone will need to grow up and embrace progress. This building has been vacant for long enough. The land has value - that's all. Wake up and start building.

This kind of attitude has cost Dallas numerous great buildings of their period that will never be replaced - many of which are now simply asphalt lots! Perhaps we should "progress" on the many current vacant lots before demolishing more of the historical variety.

Just because an architectural style may be out of vogue does not mean that we will not realize our appreciation in the near future (mid-century modern is back in style). The same philosophy would have cost us the Davis Building, the Kirby, the new Joule hotel, among many others.

Not that every building needs to last forever, but any rush to "demolish" with no better purpose than "someday something better may come" will keep downtown either pockmarked with vacant parking lots or, perhaps worse, looking like any suburban development that was built all at once.

[tamtagon]

01/01/2008
Which preservation/redevelopment projects would you most like to see announced in 2008? What would be your top 3 choices and why? There's still alot to do. If there's another potential project not listed, feel free to chime in with it.

1. Praetorian Bldg, Main St
2. Derelict Main & Elm St storefronts
3. Statler Hilton/Grand Hotel & Old Dallas Public Library, Commerce St
4. Knights of Pythias, Deep Ellum
5. Crozier Tech/Dallas High School, Bryan St
6. Purse Bldg, Elm St
7. West End Marketplace
8. Butler Bros Buiding, South Ervay St
9. Continental Bldg, Commerce St
10. Atmos Energy/Lone Star Gas Complex, Harwood St
11. Old City Hall/Police HQ, Harwood St
12. Tower Petroleum Bldg, Elm St
13. Old Hard Rock Cafe, McKinney Ave
14. Masonic Temple, Harwood St
15. 508 Park Avenue

So, a year and a half later, and this list is about the same....

[kenc]

Except the Hard Rock is gone already and 508 Park Avenue is scheduled for demolition. Seems we are losing ground big-time.

[NThomas]

I'm guessing we've forgotten UNT at Dallas SoL has been approved and now set & ready to go?

11. Old City Hall/Police HQ, Harwood St

There's one that's finally moving off the "planning stages" and to the drawing boards.

[warlock55]

The Atmos Complex has a promising future too.