Dallas or Houston 2004-2011

[urban_bearkat]

The Houston Galleria area is pedestrian friendly. The problem I see is Houstonians just don't walk enough. I see plenty of sidewalks and crosswalks, you just don't see people using them.

The high today was 90 with what felt like 90% humidity. If I were a betting man, I'd say that's a contributing factor.

And I certainly hope for Houston's sake they get rail to the Galleria soon. The backups on Westheimer are ludicrous.

[JasonDallas]

The high today was 90 with what felt like 90% humidity. If I were a betting man, I'd say that's a contributing factor.



It was 90° with a 46% humidity at the worst part of the day at Hobby and 91° and 44% humidity at IAH at the worst part of the day. Humans would be better off if they dropped the use of relative humidity entirely because we're useless at being able to tell what it is. It'd be much better if you tried to relay the absolute humidity which is measured by the dewpoint.

I'm sure it felt oppressive (heat index was fairly high, although the dewpoints were lower than average for this time of year) but it's just not quite right to say it felt like 90° with 90% humidity as Houston has never (in the last 100+ years of observations) experienced such an extremely muggy day.

Jason

[BAMF]

i sure wish the Galleria would be like Houstons, its crazy im not just talking about the mall itself but the whole uptown area not even NorthPark can compare even at night its full of people. Houstons Galleria is not 2 seperate structures its one, the houston Saks Fifth is amazing!. no our Galleria is nver going to be like Houston

[Tnekster]

i sure wish the Galleria would be like Houstons, its crazy im not just talking about the mall itself but the whole uptown area not even NorthPark can compare even at night its full of people. Houstons Galleria is not 2 seperate structures its one, the houston Saks Fifth is amazing!. no our Galleria is nver going to be like Houston

Why would anybody want to be like Houston?

[msutton]

While I admit to really enjoying Houston's Galleria area (especially with all of the most recent development down there), your post is confusing. In a matter of three poorly constructed sentences (one of which is an impressively banal run-on), you manage to go from the honest and understandable sentiment of desiring Dallas' Galleria area to be as urban, energetic, and densely developed as Houston's to asserting that "no our Galleria is nver [sic] going to be like Houston."

While that statement is true (The Galleria is a district, Houston is a huge, sprawling city with many different districts and an entirely different zoning (or lack there of) system and culture), I assume you actually mean something different from what you wrote: that the Dallas Galleria will never be like Houston's. Again, it certainly will not be Houston's, however it seems rather strange to me that you are able un under 100 words to convince yourself that your dreams can't come true. Maybe you need a little more encouragement from Walt Disney & Co.?

[CARTMAN]

I think he means the Houston Galleria's layout is truly dynamic and I must agree. That's one of the reasons I couldn't understand our equivalent (Northpark) didn't expanded the 2nd Lever throughout the entire mall. I'm sure that will be planned in the next expansion. Lastly, Houston's overall Midtown-Uptown planning or lack of it sucks and their lack of pedestrian friendly Urban villages. I can only count two Rice Village and Highland Village and they don't even have residential. (Dallas: Victory, West Village, Mockingbird Station, Park Lane Place)

[rantanamo]

Its a mall.

[3Dfw]

Cartman, I thought that they had started demo on some of Rice Village, to put in residential? Not sure but I could've sworn, last time I was there.
kenc - your Green line spur sounds eerily like Westpark in Houston. A once decent road now being frankensteined into rail. Of course H-town's rail is laughable compare to Dallas, but whatevr- give it some time.

What I find funniest is several friends that live in Addison Circle as if it's the top of the world. Hmm.

[BAMF]

While I admit to really enjoying Houston's Galleria area (especially with all of the most recent development down there), your post is confusing. In a matter of three poorly constructed sentences (one of which is an impressively banal run-on), you manage to go from the honest and understandable sentiment of desiring Dallas' Galleria area to be as urban, energetic, and densely developed as Houston's to asserting that "no our Galleria is nver [sic] going to be like Houston."

While that statement is true (The Galleria is a district, Houston is a huge, sprawling city with many different districts and an entirely different zoning (or lack there of) system and culture), I assume you actually mean something different from what you wrote: that the Dallas Galleria will never be like Houston's. Again, it certainly will not be Houston's, however it seems rather strange to me that you are able un under 100 words to convince yourself that your dreams can't come true. Maybe you need a little more encouragement from Walt Disney & Co.?
get over yourself, its a forum ! if i needed to worry about grammar it be for school. but i forget half of you are near 40 and live in Frisco. i Cant belive how negative you guys are, i live in Dallas & i love going to Houston its a wonderful city. Dallas is home and i love it too. but have any of you been to Galleria Dallas? admit it, it sucks. seriously dude get over your lame personality

[tamtagon]

msutton, "In a matter of three poorly constructed sentences ... Maybe you need a little more encouragement from Walt Disney & Co.?"

BAMF, "but have any of you been to Galleria Dallas? admit it, it sucks. seriously dude get over your lame personality"

^^You guys ought to steer your creative energy away from personal insults.

I think the Dallas Galleria is a great mall, but all things considered, I dont like it as much as the Houston Galleria. It's hard to tell what's in store for the part of Dallas around the Galleria. I thought by now there would have been quite a bit more posturing among mid & highrise condo developments; maybe there's just too much going on downtown for anyone North of NW Hwy to feel like they will get any marketing attention. The neighborhoods are different enough, I had thought, that downtown and North Dallas could have simultaneous expansion. Maybe once downtown's big bang calms down into a more fluid expansion of residential inventory, the North Dallas will get going.

[AeroD]

Who cares about the Houston Galleria and to a lesser extent the Dallas Galleria!?!?

We have NorthPark.

I like NorthPark not necessarily because of its shopping as much as its design. It is still bar none the best mall in DFW, and I think it is significantly better than the Houston Galleria.

[vman]

I like NorthPark not necessarily because of its shopping as much as its design. It is still bar none the best mall in DFW, and I think it is significantly better than the Houston Galleria.
The best "mall" in the country thank you. :2lol:

[msutton]

Hey, man, I'm not disagreeing that the Houston Galleria is great. Maybe I didn't spend enough time on that part of my post ("While I admit to really enjoying Houston's Galleria area (especially with all of the most recent development down there)"), but I agree with you that the Galleria area of Houston is much better than the Galleria area in Dallas (whether the mall itself is better, as tamtagon says, I can't really comment as I know jack about malls and can't tell a great one from a composte pile).

My other comments, I'll admit, were part of a bad habit I've been having recently of letting pet peeves drive me to off-topic posts. Sorry for that.

But, I've got to say, there's little that I enjoy more than trading juicy insults.

[GuerillaBlack]

Why would anybody want to be like Houston?
You can't compare Houston's Galleria with Dallas' Galleria. Houston's Galleria is better compared with Northpark and the Dallas Galleria is better compared with Memorial City Mall in the highly affluent/upscale Memorial Villages in West Houston. Once the rail lines gets out to Houston's Uptown area (which includes a partial subway), then Houston's Uptown/Galleria area will get even better.

[GuerillaBlack]

As far as malls go, the Dallas Galleria is definitely a jewel. I find it more cohesive than the Houston Galleria in which you can so obviously tell when you go from the old to the new. The atrium area of the Dallas Galleria is absolutely stunning. The way the Galleria area is being developed in Dallas holds much potential. I find the setbacks of the buildings and all the surface parking around the Houston location very suburban. Another thing to consider is the fact that Dallas Galleria was built in a dry area, so you cannot expect it to be party central as the Houston location is built along what many consider to be the main drag. So let's be happy in saying they are both nice, just different. Once we get off the subjects of malls though, Dallas blows Houston away!!!
You do know that the developers who constructed the Houston Galleria constructed the Dallas Galleria right? There also aren't that many surface parking lots around the Galleria (or at least the are going away). A couple of the strip centers north of the Houston Galleria are being replaced with mixed-use developments (most notable, BLVD Place, look it up). There are rumors that a Ritz will locate there.

[chiboi]

I think Houston is nice. However, it would be foolish to entertain the opinion that Houston is the fashion capital/or is more fashionable than Dallas. There just aren't the facts to support it. It is well known that Dallas is the fashion capital/most fashionable city in the Southwest. With that in mind, yes that part of Houston is very nice. I was simply defending Dallas since somone used the choice word "suck" regarding the Dallas locaton. And yes, I know the Dallas location was developed and owned by the same people in Houston, but unfortunately, it took them selling it for us to get the badly needed renovation that has returned it to it's original glory. Perhaps those Houston developers will invest the money to make the old and new parts of the Houston Galleria mesh better which is currently under way at the uber upscale Northpark in Dallas.

[GuerillaBlack]

I think Houston is nice. However, it would be foolish to entertain the opinion that Houston is the fashion capital/or is more fashionable than Dallas. There just aren't the facts to support it. It is well known that Dallas is the fashion capital/most fashionable city in the Southwest. With that in mind, yes that part of Houston is very nice. I was simply defending Dallas since somone used the choice word "suck" regarding the Dallas locaton. And yes, I know the Dallas location was developed and owned by the same people in Houston, but unfortunately, it took them selling it for us to get the badly needed renovation that has returned it to it's original glory. Perhaps those Houston developers will invest the money to make the old and new parts of the Houston Galleria mesh better which is currently under way at the uber upscale Northpark in Dallas.
Oh, I don't think anyone is trying to dispute that Dallas is the not the fashion capital of the Southwest. THat would be like saying the UT Southwestern Medical Center is on par with the Texas Medical Center. Houston is no slouch in the fashion department and has stores that Dallas doesn't have, but still it isn't on the same level in the fashion department. I do believe Houston pulls more affluent shoppers from Mexico than Dallas does.

And when was the last time you were at Houston's Galleria?

[AeroD]

Oh, I don't think anyone is trying to dispute that Dallas is the not the fashion capital of the Southwest. THat would be like saying the UT Southwestern Medical Center is on par with the Texas Medical Center. Houston is no slouch in the fashion department and has stores that Dallas doesn't have, but still it isn't on the same level in the fashion department. I do believe Houston pulls more affluent shoppers from Mexico than Dallas does.

And when was the last time you were at Houston's Galleria?

Who cares about affluent Mexican shoppers? Attracting wealthy Mexicans says nothing about a mall. La Plaza Mall in McAllen probably pulls in the most wealthy Mexicans of all the malls in Texas. Just go to the mall and look at all the licencse plates from Nuevo Leon (one of Mexico's richest states). Is the McAllen mall nicer the Dallas Galleria or Houston Galleria? No.

Regarding, Houston having stores that Dallas doesn't have. Same thing applies in the opposite direction.

[rantanamo]

Houstonite instinct. He can't help it. The word Galleria raises their antennae.

[GuerillaBlack]

Who cares about affluent Mexican shoppers? Attracting wealthy Mexicans says nothing about a mall. La Plaza Mall in McAllen probably pulls in the most wealthy Mexicans of all the malls in Texas. Just go to the mall and look at all the licencse plates from Nuevo Leon (one of Mexico's richest states). Is the McAllen mall nicer the Dallas Galleria or Houston Galleria? No.

Regarding, Houston having stores that Dallas doesn't have. Same thing applies in the opposite direction.
I was just saying. You get very defensive over a simple statement.

Houstonite instinct. He can't help it. The word Galleria raises their antennae.
Is that you in your avatar?

[sogod]

I was just saying. You get very defensive over a simple statement.

Did I just hear the pot calling the kettle black?

[Phillip]

Houston is a giant city, but it hasn't lived up to its size. If you go around the country, most people take Dallas more seriously as a true city--and for good reason.

Retailers do the same, and that's why Dallas has multiple locations of upscale stores like Restoration Hardware, Crate&Barrel, The Container Store, Neiman Marcus, Saks Fifth Avenue, Nordstrom (Dallas-4, Houston-1...complete pwnage), Central Market (Dallas-4, Houston-1...even more pwnage), J.Crew, and Design Within Reach, while Houston only has one or two of each of those stores at most. Even Austin and San Antonio--much smaller cities--have at least one or two of each those stores, not to mention other medium-size cities like St. Louis, Kansas City, Boston, Cleveland, Denver, Seattle, Cincinnati, and Minneapolis. It would be alright for Houston to be lacking in this department if it were a medium-size city--but it's not. When you look in the catalogs of upscale stores, Dallas is right on line with Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Boston in the number of locations of those stores, while Houston is embarrassingly lacking. Chicago and Washington D.C., not to mention unreachable New York, LA, and SF, are probably going to be ahead of Dallas in this department for a long time (if not forever, due to their large wealth bases), but that's understandable. Houston should at least be on Atlanta and Dallas's level, as the fourth-largest city in the country and the sixth largest metropolitan area. Just as embarrassing as Houston's lack of upscale stores is its lack of upscale malls and shopping centers. Dallas leaves Houston in the dust in this regard--and pretty much every other big city does as well. Dallas has four truly upscale shopping concentrations in the Galleria, NorthPark, Willow Bend, and Southlake Town Square. NorthEast Mall and Stonebriar are also better than average malls. Houston only has the Galleria to offer, with nothing else even coming close. It's had more in the past like Town and Country, but those have been as fleeting and lacking as its sports teams, of which Dallas has all four, by the way (not to mention Arena Football and soccer).

Dallas also got its light-rail system back in 1994 and has been expanding it ever since. Houston, on the other hand, just started their's a few years ago--long after many much smaller cities had already implemented their's. Dallas's was right on line with many U.S. cities when it opened. Houston's is way too late--and an inferior system, as it uses city streets instead of dedicated rail lines. Forbes Magazine had that little bit to praise about Dallas, adding that it was a bit more urban (pedestrian-friendly, dense, etc.) than Houston due to its light-rail, among other things. It criticized Houston for its heavy spending on new freeway construction rather than on improvements to mass transit.

I do love the Houston Galleria and the Uptown area itself, and I actually do like Houston, but I can also see why most people in this country take Dallas more seriously. Dallas is more balanced--it has many nice residential and shopping areas rather than just a single concentrated one. It's economically diverse, with strong high-tech, military, agricultural/resource and business industries, while Houston depends mostly on the boom and bust of oil. And very importantly, Dallas is far ahead in terms of mixed-use development (over not just Houston but many other cities as well) and dense, pedestrian-oriented projects. Houston's Galleria area, is as others have said, not pedestrian-friendly at all, with its extra-wide streets, suburban-style shopping centers, large setbacks, and giant parking lots. It looks good from a distance and from your car...more like shit from the eyes of a pedestrian. Remember, Houston's Galleria area is as far from Downtown Houston as NorthPark is from Downtown Dallas. Galleria Dallas is farther out from the city center.

[GuerillaBlack]

Houston is a giant city, but it hasn't lived up to its size. If you go around the country, most people take Dallas more seriously as a true city--and for good reason.

Retailers do the same, and that's why Dallas has multiple locations of upscale stores like Restoration Hardware, Crate&Barrel, The Container Store, Neiman Marcus, Saks Fifth Avenue, Nordstrom (Dallas-4, Houston-1...complete pwnage), Central Market (Dallas-4, Houston-1...even more pwnage), J.Crew, and Design Within Reach, while Houston only has one or two of each of those stores at most. Even Austin and San Antonio--much smaller cities--have at least one or two of each those stores, not to mention other medium-size cities like St. Louis, Kansas City, Boston, Cleveland, Denver, Seattle, Cincinnati, and Minneapolis. It would be alright for Houston to be lacking in this department if it were a medium-size city--but it's not. When you look in the catalogs of upscale stores, Dallas is right on line with Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Boston in the number of locations of those stores, while Houston is embarrassingly lacking. Chicago and Washington D.C., not to mention unreachable New York, LA, and SF, are probably going to be ahead of Dallas in this department for a long time (if not forever, due to their large wealth bases), but that's understandable. Houston should at least be on Atlanta and Dallas's level, as the fourth-largest city in the country and the sixth largest metropolitan area. Just as embarrassing as Houston's lack of upscale stores is its lack of upscale malls and shopping centers. Dallas leaves Houston in the dust in this regard--and pretty much every other big city does as well. Dallas has four truly upscale shopping concentrations in the Galleria, NorthPark, Willow Bend, and Southlake Town Square. NorthEast Mall and Stonebriar are also better than average malls. Houston only has the Galleria to offer, with nothing else even coming close. It's had more in the past like Town and Country, but those have been as fleeting and lacking as its sports teams, of which Dallas has all four, by the way (not to mention Arena Football and soccer).

I'm not into retail, but I'll get someone who can explain that better, but Houston is right in line with Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Boston. Do some more research buddy. Hell, Denver has an ESPN Zone and Dallas and Houston don't. Does that make them less of a great city?

About the malls though, your dead wrong. Houston has the Galleria, Memorial City, and Sugar Land Town Center. Willowbrook and The Woodlands Mall (with its water taxi) are also not your average mall. For sports teams, Houston has the Texans, Rockets, Dynamo, Comets, and Astros.


Dallas also got its light-rail system back in 1994 and has been expanding it ever since. Houston, on the other hand, just started their's a few years ago--long after many much smaller cities had already implemented their's. Dallas's was right on line with many U.S. cities when it opened. Houston's is way too late--and an inferior system, as it uses city streets instead of dedicated rail lines. Forbes Magazine had that little bit to praise about Dallas, adding that it was a bit more urban (pedestrian-friendly, dense, etc.) than Houston due to its light-rail, among other things. It criticized Houston for its heavy spending on new freeway construction rather than on improvements to mass transit.

So what? Houston is expanding its rail. It isn't the only system in America to run in city streets. Muni in San Fran, Baltimore, Boston's Green Line, etc. And Houston's system has 44,000 riders a day. 67% of what Dallas' system has, and DART has 38 more miles of light rail track! Houston expanded its freeways and is expanding its rail.


I do love the Houston Galleria and the Uptown area itself, and I actually do like Houston, but I can also see why most people in this country take Dallas more seriously. Dallas is more balanced--it has many nice residential and shopping areas rather than just a single concentrated one. It's economically diverse, with strong high-tech, military, agricultural/resource and business industries, while Houston depends mostly on the boom and bust of oil. And very importantly, Dallas is far ahead in terms of mixed-use development (over not just Houston but many other cities as well) and dense, pedestrian-oriented projects. Houston's Galleria area, is as others have said, not pedestrian-friendly at all, with its extra-wide streets, suburban-style shopping centers, large setbacks, and giant parking lots. It looks good from a distance and from your car...more like shit from the eyes of a pedestrian. Remember, Houston's Galleria area is as far from Downtown Houston as NorthPark is from Downtown Dallas. Galleria Dallas is farther out from the city center.

And I haven't seen anyone take Dallas more serious than Houston, and vice versa. If you venture outside of this nice little local forum, you will see that others from many different American cities view both of these cities the same. Houston's inner loop is at 95 square miles and has about 600,000 in population. That's pretty damn good. There is also a ton of mixed-use developments in Houston. Go read HAIF's going up section and see for yourself. It may not be as much as Dallas, but Dallas is also building vacant office towers, so it goes both ways I guess. It doesn't look like shit either. Very nice and upscale from the car, just not very walkable in many areas at the moment. Areas around Northpark and Galleria Dallas aren't walkable either, so that puts your little claim into a moot point.

If you venture around Houston, you would know that it also has nice residential and shopping areas. I like them more than Dallas'. Houston's economy is also about 40% based on energy/oil. Not bad. When oil/energy is going forward, the city really goes, when it isn't, the city takes a small hit, because 60% of the city's economy has nothing to do with energy/oil.
Happy New Year!

[MisterNifty]

I'm not into retail, but I'll get someone who can explain that better, but Houston is right in line with Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Boston. Do some more research buddy. Hell, Denver has an ESPN Zone and Dallas and Houston don't. Does that make them less of a great city?

About the malls though, your dead wrong. Houston has the Galleria, Memorial City, and Sugar Land Town Center. Willowbrook and The Woodlands Mall (with its water taxi) are also not your average mall. For sports teams, Houston has the Texans, Rockets, Dynamo, Comets, and Astros.



So what? Houston is expanding its rail. It isn't the only system in America to run in city streets. Muni in San Fran, Baltimore, Boston's Green Line, etc. And Houston's system has 44,000 riders a day. 67% of what Dallas' system has, and DART has 38 more miles of light rail track! Houston expanded its freeways and is expanding its rail.



And I haven't seen anyone take Dallas more serious than Houston, and vice versa. If you venture outside of this nice little local forum, you will see that others from many different American cities view both of these cities the same. Houston's inner loop is at 95 square miles and has about 600,000 in population. That's pretty damn good. There is also a ton of mixed-use developments in Houston. Go read HAIF's going up section and see for yourself. It may not be as much as Dallas, but Dallas is also building vacant office towers, so it goes both ways I guess. It doesn't look like shit either. Very nice and upscale from the car, just not very walkable in many areas at the moment. Areas around Northpark and Galleria Dallas aren't walkable either, so that puts your little claim into a moot point.

If you venture around Houston, you would know that it also has nice residential and shopping areas. I like them more than Dallas'. Houston's economy is also about 40% based on energy/oil. Not bad. When oil/energy is going forward, the city really goes, when it isn't, the city takes a small hit, because 60% of the city's economy has nothing to do with energy/oil.
Happy New Year!
http://gkc2.cbrichardellis.com/LocalReports350.asp

Excuse me, Mr. Guerilla Black? By statistics posted by you in another thread, the one posted above, there is undeniable proof that the Houston Metro area only has 140,000,000 square foot of retail to DFW's 211,000,000. The reason given as to why Houston only has 2/3rd's the market is because DFW has twice the market size.

Now take a deep breath. Realize that Houston has things going for it that DFW doesn't. Like one of the largest seaports in North America. Or lots of pretty women wearing bikinis at the beach in Galveston. Or deep sea fishing.

[Phillip]

I'm not into retail, but I'll get someone who can explain that better, but Houston is right in line with Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Boston. Do some more research buddy. Hell, Denver has an ESPN Zone and Dallas and Houston don't. Does that make them less of a great city?
Do some more research buddy? I just did a lot more than most people do, so your point is moot. I've analyzed the two cities through first-person interaction, and I got into very specific detail about the stores and catalogs, if you didn't notice. You, on the other hand, have provided absolutely no evidence that Houston is right on par with Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Boston. I really like Houston and said so in my last post, so there's no need to get all defensive. I'm being objective; you're not.


About the malls though, your dead wrong. Houston has the Galleria, Memorial City, and Sugar Land Town Center. Willowbrook and The Woodlands Mall (with its water taxi) are also not your average mall.
Memorial City Mall is nothing compared to NorthPark, the Galleria, Willow Bend, and Southlake. The Woodlands is a nice development and pedestrian friendly, but the mall is just an average mall. Some of the retail outside of it is better than average, but you could say the same thing about the area around the Parks at Arlington. Sugar Land Town Center is not as upscale as it should be for its location. It's better than average, but not comparable to the elite four malls I named in the DFW area.


For sports teams, Houston has the Texans, Rockets, Dynamo, Comets, and Astros.
Houston just got the Texans in the early 2000s. Before that, it only had the Rockets and Astros. Many cities of a much smaller size have three sports teams, such as St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Seattle. As for specifics, the Aeros are minor league and draw few crowds, and the Oilers also have been more successful in the much smaller city of Nashville than they were in Houston. No one thinks of the Houston teams when they think of Texas football--they think of "America's Team," the Dallas Cowboys.


So what? Houston is expanding its rail. It isn't the only system in America to run in city streets. Muni in San Fran, Baltimore, Boston's Green Line, etc.
Those cities you named are much, much denser than Houston. They were already big and established when streetcars were around late in the nineteenth century and early in the twentieth century. Non-bus mass transit on the streets is just their continuation of the streetcar. Houston's system stops in more useful places than DART, I'll give you that, but the number of accidents its has stems from the residents' unfamiliarity with mass transit on their streets. To solve that problem, you take the light rail to the rail. It makes more sense in a suburban, spread-out, car-oriented city like Houston.


And I haven't seen anyone take Dallas more serious than Houston, and vice versa. If you venture outside of this nice little local forum, you will see that others from many different American cities view both of these cities the same. Houston's inner loop is at 95 square miles and has about 600,000 in population. That's pretty damn good. There is also a ton of mixed-use developments in Houston. Go read HAIF's going up section and see for yourself. It may not be as much as Dallas, but Dallas is also building vacant office towers, so it goes both ways I guess. It doesn't look like shit either. Very nice and upscale from the car, just not very walkable in many areas at the moment. Areas around Northpark and Galleria Dallas aren't walkable either, so that puts your little claim into a moot point.
Granted many people think of Dallas and Houston as the same, and in many ways they're similar, but when it comes down to it, Dallas gets the edge. Looking at a world or national weather map and seeing Dallas on it but not Houston says it all. Why do you think people always mention LA, New York, and Chicago in the same sentence but never mention Houston, the fourth largest city in the United States? Density and urbanity matter, and Dallas is denser and more urban. The presence of suburbs does, as well. Houston is one giant city in land size that encompasses the vast majority of its metropolitan area with very few suburbs around it. Dallas operates under the same home rule laws as Houston and other Texas cities do, but it has so many more suburbs than Houston. I've heard many times that Dallas is the most cosmopolitan city in Texas. One can see why. As for your point that the area around NorthPark isn't walkable, take a look at Preston Center. You don't see any of the large parking lots there that you do around the Houston Galleria. And areas from Northwest Highway southward are pretty damn urban. That's especially the case south of Mockingbird. If you didn't read my post, by the way, I said that Houston's Uptown area and Dallas's Galleria area are at different radii from the city center. The two areas are similar, but Dallas's is farther out. That's a supporting point that Houston's an even more suburban city than Dallas, which is already too suburban for its own good.


If you venture around Houston, you would know that it also has nice residential and shopping areas. I like them more than Dallas'. Houston's economy is also about 40% based on energy/oil. Not bad. When oil/energy is going forward, the city really goes, when it isn't, the city takes a small hit, because 60% of the city's economy has nothing to do with energy/oil.
I have ventured around Houston and know that there are nice residential and shopping areas. My argument is that Houston isn't living up to its potential and to normal American standards for a big city. Rice Village is nice, but it's not Highland Park Village. It's more like the shopping developments in Dallas around HPV, such as those on Mockingbird, Lovers, Hillcrest (Snider Plaza, for example), Inwood, and Oak Lawn. As for your statistic that Houston's economy is about 40% based on energy/oil, that's a damn large amount, not a diversified economy.

[GuerillaBlack]

I respect your opinion, but...


Do some more research buddy? I just did a lot more than most people do, so your point is moot. I've analyzed the two cities through first-person interaction, and I got into very specific detail about the stores and catalogs, if you didn't notice. You, on the other hand, have provided absolutely no evidence that Houston is right on par with Dallas, Atlanta, Miami, Phoenix, and Boston. I really like Houston and said so in my last post, so there's no need to get all defensive. I'm being objective; you're not. The early 2000s. Before that, it only had the Rockets and Astros. Many cities of a much smaller size have three sports teams, such as St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Tampa, and Seattle. As for specifics, the Aeros are minor league and draw few crowds, and the Oilers also have been more successful in the much smaller city of Nashville than they were in Houston. No one thinks of the Houston teams when they think of Texas football--they think of "America's Team," the Dallas Cowboys.

That is a weak comparison. The Oilers were in the city for nearly 40 years before that possum head Bud Adams moved them out because Houston residents wouldn't build him a new stadium after he already got new improvements to the Astrodome that same year. The Oilers last season was 1996. Houston was without a team for only three years. In 1999, Houston was awarded a new franchise, so it wasn't like the city was completely out of a football team. And more success in what way have they had in Nashville? Give some examples.


Those cities you named are much, much denser than Houston. They were already big and established when streetcars were around late in the nineteenth century and early in the twentieth century. Non-bus mass transit on the streets is just their continuation of the streetcar. Houston's system stops in more useful places than DART, I'll give you that, but the number of accidents its has stems from the residents' unfamiliarity with mass transit on their streets. To solve that problem, you take the light rail to the rail. It makes more sense in a suburban, spread-out, car-oriented city like Houston.

The accidents have fallen at a considerable rate. Somewhere between 20-30 in 2007. Very different from the first year when there were more than 60 I believe. Dallas is suburban, spread out, and is very car-oriented as well. DART works more like a commuter rail system in the suburbs. With the way Houston is built, light rail works best in the core and out to both airports. Commuter rail is going to come in from the Southeast, West, Northwest, and Southwest.


Granted many people think of Dallas and Houston as the same, and in many ways they're similar, but when it comes down to it, Dallas gets the edge. Looking at a world or national weather map and seeing Dallas on it but not Houston says it all.

Seeing Dallas on a world weather map and not Houston doesn't mean anything. There have been many times where I have seen Houston the weather map on CNN and not Dallas. That doesn't mean anything. Spacing and issues like that are the reason.


Why do you think people always mention LA, New York, and Chicago in the same sentence but never mention Houston, the fourth largest city in the United States?

Those cities have always been the most popular in the U.S. Houston may be the fourth largest city, but it is the sixth (probably fifth right now) largest metro and seventh largest CSA.


Density and urbanity matter, and Dallas is denser and more urban. The presence of suburbs does, as well. Houston is one giant city in land size that encompasses the vast majority of its metropolitan area with very few suburbs around it. Dallas operates under the same home rule laws as Houston and other Texas cities do, but it has so many more suburbs than Houston.

See, this is where research for you might have helped. Houston, as a city, is denser than Dallas. Houston, as a metro, isn't, but the counties are larger down there. Instead, let's use urban areas, which go as far as the last developed parcel of land and not empty countryside:

http://demographia.com/db-ua2000pop.htm

Houston actually has a lot of suburbs around it. They just aren't as large yet. In ten years, a few will be over 100,000 and some 150,000. Dallas does have more suburbs, but I don't see how more is better in this case.


I've heard many times that Dallas is the most cosmopolitan city in Texas. One can see why. As for your point that the area around NorthPark isn't walkable, take a look at Preston Center. You don't see any of the large parking lots there that you do around the Houston Galleria. And areas from Northwest Highway southward are pretty damn urban. That's especially the case south of Mockingbird. If you didn't read my post, by the way, I said that Houston's Uptown area and Dallas's Galleria area are at different radii from the city center. The two areas are similar, but Dallas's is farther out. That's a supporting point that Houston's an even more suburban city than Dallas, which is already too suburban for its own good.

I've heard many times that Houston is the most cosmopolitan city in Texas. Many can see why. Preston Center? Well, let's use Greenway Plaza for Houston. Also, The Galleria is six miles west of Downtown Houston. How does this make Houston more suburban? And yes, there are large parking lots around Northpark. Not just for the mall, but for the suburban style developments not far from it. You can get a good view from the Park Lane Station.


I have ventured around Houston and know that there are nice residential and shopping areas. My argument is that Houston isn't living up to its potential and to normal American standards for a big city. Rice Village is nice, but it's not Highland Park Village. It's more like the shopping developments in Dallas around HPV, such as those on Mockingbird, Lovers, Hillcrest (Snider Plaza, for example), Inwood, and Oak Lawn. As for your statistic that Houston's economy is about 40% based on energy/oil, that's a damn large amount, not a diversified economy.

Normal American standards as an American city? What are those "standard"? And 40% is still large, but it is better than 80% (what it was in the 80's). I think somewhere between 30%-37% would be ideal, but it isn't bad if a single industry takes up 40% of your economy. It is actually a good thing.

[AeroD]

More of this Dallas vs. Houston non-sense.

When will it stop? 2009?

[GuerillaBlack]

More of this Dallas vs. Houston non-sense.

When will it stop? 2009?
I'm sorry. I took the bait. Shouldn't have, but the Houston defense system came out. Phillip, let's take it to PM's and not flood this thread anymore.

[MisterNifty]

I'm sorry. I took the bait. Shouldn't have, but the Houston defense system came out. Phillip, let's take it to PM's and not flood this thread anymore.

You told me yourself that Houston is 47% energy based, Guerilla. Now you are telling this fellow that it is 40%. And living in Houston myself during the 2000 census, I can tell you a little known aspect about the city. The big secret is that it counted a large population of illegals during the last Census. Exactly how many is unknown. In order to push up its population numbers as much as possible, the city of Houston funded an agressive campaign to insure illegals that they would not get prosecuted when they came forth to be counted. So, certainly these numbers, whatever they happened to be, won't need high end retail built for them.

And yes, before you say it, the DFW area certainly has its share of counted illegal aliens.

[GuerillaBlack]

You told me yourself that Houston is 47% energy based, Guerilla. Now you are telling this fellow that it is 40%. And living in Houston myself during the 2000 census, I can tell you a little known aspect about the city. The big secret is that it counted a large population of illegals during the last Census. Exactly how many is unknown. In order to push up its population numbers as much as possible, the city of Houston funded an agressive campaign to insure illegals that they would not get prosecuted when they came forth to be counted. So, certainly these numbers, whatever they happened to be, won't need high end retail built for them.

And yes, before you say it, the DFW area certainly has its share of counted illegal aliens.

Check your PM. You don't know how to quit hijacking threads.

[MisterNifty]

More of this Dallas vs. Houston non-sense.

When will it stop? 2009?

The differences between the Houston area and the DFW area are interesting. The problem arises when people fail to accept certain well known general facts about each area. Such as:
Houston has a major seaport.
Houston has the largest Medical Center in the world.
Houston is the headquarters for NASA.
Houston is the energy capital of the world.
Houston is the center of the waste collection industry in the United States. (No, really)
These are well known designations that Houston is known for.
In order to have an open discussion, one that is compare and contrast, there must also be some generally known designations that DFW is known for likewise.
If such designations can't be established, the conversation reduces down to bickering.

[MisterNifty]

Check your PM. You don't know how to quit hijacking threads.

Well, I did put forth the question about whether Valley View mall could be soone incorporated into the spreading development from the Galleria. High rise condos perhaps? Would this be a nice place to live? Perhaps this question will save this thread.
Look, GuerillaBlack. I understand your love for your home town. It doesn't bother me in the least that you stand up for your city. If I were born in an igloo as an Inuit, I'd think everything should be cold, shaped like an igloo and painted white.

[MDE]

most people take Dallas more seriously as a true city--and for good reason. 1) The Dallas Cowboys
2) "Dallas" the television show

[MisterNifty]

I think he means the Houston Galleria's layout is truly dynamic and I must agree. That's one of the reasons I couldn't understand our equivalent (Northpark) didn't expanded the 2nd Lever throughout the entire mall. I'm sure that will be planned in the next expansion. Lastly, Houston's overall Midtown-Uptown planning or lack of it sucks and their lack of pedestrian friendly Urban villages. I can only count two Rice Village and Highland Village and they don't even have residential. (Dallas: Victory, West Village, Mockingbird Station, Park Lane Place)

How funny. As a kid I remember watching motocross racing directly across 59 from the Galleria. Now that is planning.

[dallasrookie]

1) The Dallas Cowboys
2) "Dallas" the television show

ha... oh boy :rolleyes:

[GuerillaBlack]

1) The Dallas Cowboys
2) "Dallas" the television show
You think people take Dallas more seriously from a TV show? One that put in a lot of stereotypes.

[tamtagon]

Dallas versus Houston - every year it's the same thing. The first time you get into one of these Internet booster club wars, it's compelling, but after that, you realize it's the same points argued by different people. Better shopping, more people, taller buildings, more trains, higher ridership on and on and still the same.

Please, use this thread only to shout your city-spirit and leave the others alone. How about giving a cookie to the first person to comes up with something fresh?

[rantanamo]

[Clayton Bigsby]Houston, Dallas and all kinds of sunbelt sprawlers...................stank!!!![/Clayton Bigsby]

[Mballar]

How about giving a cookie to the first person to comes up with something fresh?
Dallas hosts a bigger, better, and more nationally recognized bowl game. :D

I'll take chocolate chip, please.

[Lakewooder]

Houston is blue collar.
Dallas is white collar.

You can argue the point but that is they way things are perceived.

[mikedsjr]

tam.....You got that right. I just figured that it was a way for the dallasites with low city self-esteem to make themselves feel better.

[CTroyMathis]

Not really a fan of city against city stuff at all, but, I suppose if people can't resist - one place to do it sounds fair enough.

How about a stupid anagram combining Dallas and Houston?

Daughter finds an unusual object in the closet, mom comes up with a quick answer. . .
"It's an Adult Lasso, Hon!"

Ok, that was from outta nowhere. . . haha. I'm outta here. . .

[Geaux Tigers]

Can't we just all agree that Houston is a life-sucking dump of a city and no one in their right mind or with any regard for personal hygenie should consider moving there?

[GuerillaBlack]

Well, this is a forum dedicated to DFW.
And? You pounce around like Dallas is the second coming of God and is the end all be all with no shortcomings or competition in the South.

Using city populations is useless to me. Using metro areas is much better to get a feel for the overall area.

[ComingtoHouston]

Can't we just all agree that Houston is a life-sucking dump of a city and no one in their right mind or with any regard for personal hygenie should consider moving there?

Oh yeah that's right. Attack Houston to make Dallas feel better.

[ComingtoHouston]

There is a good reason for the pissing match. People tend to disregard all cities in a state or country except for the largest one... thus, the spectre of Houston passing itself off as the largest "city" in Texas, without explaining that they really mean "municipal government". Of course this is an effort to be a bit deceptive, and disguise the smaller size of its metropolitan area relative to DFW. Houston does this not out of vainglory, but only to keep itself in the public eye and not be dismissed as an also-ran.

Houston is the largest city in Texas period. Even if you go by metropolitan areas, Houston holds up pretty strong against DFW despite the fact that its just one major city in its metro. We're talking about a 500,000 people difference which is explained by the presence of Fort Worth's population. Dallas benefits from having Fort Worth (another major U.S. city) only 30 miles away. Dallas and Fort Worth feel worlds apart. The distance between Dallas and Fort Worth to me doesn't even set the tone to feel like its "one city". It's definitely not like Minneapolis/St.Paul where the city continues and spills over to the next. There's gaps between Dallas and Fort Worth.

Houston is more dense and populated. So Houston is right by calling itself the largest Texas City.

[dallasrookie]

Houston is the largest city in Texas period. Even if you go by metropolitan areas, Houston holds up pretty strong against DFW despite the fact that its just one major city in its metro. We're talking about a 500,000 people difference which is explained by the presence of Fort Worth's population. Dallas benefits from having Fort Worth (another major U.S. city) only 30 miles away. Dallas and Fort Worth feel worlds apart. The distance between Dallas and Fort Worth to me doesn't even set the tone to feel like its "one city". It's definitely not like Minneapolis/St.Paul where the city continues and spills over to the next. There's gaps between Dallas and Fort Worth.

Houston is more dense and populated. So Houston is right by calling itself the largest Texas City.


* yawn * --- this is silly

[Tnekster]

Houston is more dense and populated. So Houston is right by calling itself the largest Texas City.

Who cares, it's still Houston.

[aceplace]

DFW is a city, an economically integrated metro with interrelated traffic, surrounded by countryside. Dallas, Arlington, Plano, Fort Worth, etc, are municipal governments within the city, and are administrative subdivisions similar to the London Boroughs. The economic and cultural clout that DFW holds over its region is not traceable to individual municipalities within the metro, but is a function of the total power of the entire metro.

Metro Houston's problem is that its central municipality is too large in relation to its metro area.

[GuerillaBlack]

DFW is a city, an economically integrated metro with interrelated traffic, surrounded by countryside. Dallas, Arlington, Plano, Fort Worth, etc, are municipal governments within the city, and are administrative subdivisions similar to the London Boroughs. The economic and cultural clout that DFW holds over its region is not traceable to individual municipalities within the metro, but is a function of the total power of the entire metro.

Metro Houston's problem is that its central municipality is too large in relation to its metro area.
Not true.

People move to FW to be near FW. People move to Dallas to be near Dallas. You have two separate metro areas that grew together some 25 years ago. Each of those cities spawned (and are still creating) their own suburbs. Houston grew because of Houston. People moved to Houston.

Houston's city limit population is 2.2 million. It's metro is 5.63 million. Don't see a problem with that, when Houston is less than half the size of its metro (closer to just a third now). Houston suburbs are getting larger, with The Woodlands, Pearland, Sugar Land, Greater Katy, and Pasadena over 100,000 people (count the areas they will annex by 2010, and The Woodlands becoming its own city soon).

Don't forget the largest of them all, Unincorporated Northwest Harris County, or "The Great Northwest" as they like to call it. 800,000 people there.