Dallas Streetcar History

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

I didn't know where to post this map, but here it is. I was originally looking for old streetcar routes when I came across it online, so I guess it's appropriate here. It's a cool map of Dallas from 1905.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d4/Dallas%2C_Texas_Map_1905.jpg

[FoUTASportscaster]

The Library is a great source for that type of info. There's all sorts of old info there, including maps.

[gc]

That is really neat. Thanks for posting that.

[FoUTASportscaster]

That map can also be found on the dallas wikipedia page.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

That map can also be found on the dallas wikipedia page.

That's where I found it. I forgot to post the link.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

The Spaghetti Warehouse in the West End has a streetcar inside that customers can dine in. Is this an ex-Dallas streetcar? The website says that each restaurant contains an authentic "San Francisco trolley car".

[warlock55]

The website says that each restaurant contains an authentic "San Francisco trolley car".

If that's true, judging by the West End car the Dallas interurban line ran out to the Bay Area.

[RobertB]

If that's true, judging by the West End car the Dallas interurban line ran out to the Bay Area.
There's a thread on that, though I fear for my sanity if I even attempt to find it. :nuts:

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

Oak Lawn service circa 1948. Any ideas on the street or if the tracks are still there, buried?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Dallas1948.jpg

[Haretip]

Yes, there is a lot of track out Throckmorton, mostly north/east of Lemmon Avenue, though. Lots of wye switches and passing sidings through there. Beautiful neighborhood. I can see the streetcar running through there in my minds eye. You could easily see the tracks through the asphalt the last time I tracked it about 5-6 years ago.

[FoUTASportscaster]

The route is listed as the eight. Currently, the number 8 bus runs from downtown through Maple then makes a right on Oak Lawn then a left on Lemmon to Prescott. It may not be the same as it was back then, but I know the 36 follows virtually the same route it did when it was a bus routein the 50's, not counting anything north of Royal.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

^ Yeah I take the 8 bus every week and figured it's probably a similar route to that old streetcar.

[FoUTASportscaster]

I do know for a fact that there was a streetcar line down Maple once upon a time.

EDIT:Wrong, there never was a Maple streetcar, originally bus route 25 was the first local transportation on Maple.

[Haretip]

Maple? Are you sure. I can only think of one on Fairmont and that was the connector for the Denton Interurban line to the MKT tracks at Denton Drive.

[RobertB]

I've split this thread off from its original parent thread, which is now closed. Note that this thread would be best used for actual historical facts, such as routes, and not for philisophical debates over the unfortunate fate of the streetcar lines.

Also, I'm going to replace the 11 meg inline image in the first posting with a link to it -- that's a big download even on a fat pipe. Sorry for the inconvenience.

[dallasbrink]

do u think they will add to the street car system, update it and have it run threw Victory?

[Haretip]

Yes. Maybe later. Downtown first, Knox-Henderson next. Victory is longer off.

[dallasbrink]

When do u think they will update the street car to a newer current version

[Haretip]

U should read the previous posts. This has already been discussed.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

Here's another photo I found at this site:http://world.nycsubway.org/us/pcc/

"Three more variations on the pre-war body appeared on the scene from 1945 on, all double-ended varieties. The most unique were the 25 standard length cars built for Dallas in 1945, the only double ended cars to use the standard footprint. A single width exit door was located right behind the operator. Many of these cars, which found their way to Boston in 1959 and 1960, are preserved at various museums. "

http://images.nycsubway.org/i23000/img_23842.jpg

[trolleygirl]

Gee....sure wish we could get our hands on one of these.........

[Haretip]

There's 6 of them for sale at Seashore. Call your buddy Danny, bat your eyes at him a few times and he'll probably give you one.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

Aren't the old Dallas PCC cars the ones OCTA wants to run?

[Haretip]

Yes, according to their website it looks like they have refined their preference to these cars rebuilt to like new condition. I know of several groups that have looked at acquiring these cars and at this point it's firstus with the mostus is the group that gets them. If I recall correctly, there used to be 8 of these cars, but 2 were sold in the past couple of years.

[RobertB]

I just got an email newsletter from OCTA, and it references the PCC cars:
In other exciting news, we've tracked down six former Dallas PCC streetcars, which
were retired in 1956 and relocated to Boston, where they ran until the late 1980's.
We are currently in negotiations to reacquire these beautiful streamlined-art deco
cars, in hopes to return them to the streets of Oak Cliff. San Francisco has
successfully reactivated several PCC styled streetcars (seen at left), which can be
seen on their successful F-Line, that runs along the Market Street area. If all goes
as planned, the cars will first be shipped to Philadelphia, where they will undergo
a complete reworking with new mechanics, air-conditioning, and ADA compliant
equipment, and finally brought back home to Dallas.
I'll post the whole thing in the OCTA thread, which is not cute enough by half. :)

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

^

Here are some photos of ex-Dallas streetcars at that museum.

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/collection/national/434.html

http://www.trolleymuseum.org/collection/national/608.html

[Haretip]

:bslide:

I'd say that's too cute by half.



I'm going to the Association of Railway Museums Convention in Pittsburg in October with the OCTA Board Member who is working on putting the PCC cars deal together. We're sharing a rental car since the convention hotel is about 36 miles from the airport.

[RobertB]

We're sharing a rental car since the [railway museum] convention hotel is about 36 miles from the airport.
I think you just defined "irony". :)

[Haretip]

The only place they could afford to build their museum was way out in the boonies away from Pittsburg's transit system. The land's cheaper in the country and those streetcars take up a lot of space.

I have taken the train from the airport to the conventions in Sacramento, St.Louis, Scranton and Lancaster. I definitely try to go transit when I can, but the train don't always get there.

[FoUTASportscaster]

From the archives, a little less than two months after the streetcars stopped running.

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2093/after83yearsastrangestibq2.gif (http://imageshack.us)

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/2230/after83yearsastrangestiqw7.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[CityLove]

I'm going to the Association of Railway Museums Convention in Pittsburg in October.

:crycloud:

Man, I am so sorry. I went to one of those, and it was one too many. The one in Utah. I have never been more bored in my entire life. And then I got sick before we left, so I was miserable the whole last two days.

[trolleygirl]

:crycloud:

Man, I am so sorry. I went to one of those, and it was one too many. The one in Utah. I have never been more bored in my entire life. And then I got sick before we left, so I was miserable the whole last two days.

Sweetie, you just didn't hang out with the right people or something.... I had a blast at all of them and apparently made some history...heh heh heh...)

On the other hand....WTF is good in Utah anyway?

[ericthegardener]

From the archives, a little less than two months after the streetcars stopped running.


When I click on the pictures it just takes me to the Image Shack home page.

Any chance the images could be posted at a size where the type is legible? I'd love to read it!

Thanks

[Haretip]

:crycloud:

Man, I am so sorry. I went to one of those, and it was one too many. The one in Utah. I have never been more bored in my entire life. And then I got sick before we left, so I was miserable the whole last two days.

You couldn't have picked a worse one to go to. It was Ogden. Utah. With your boss. As a matter of fact, didn't your boss bail early and leave you to the annual business meeting by yourself?

[CityLove]

You couldn't have picked a worse one to go to. It was Ogden. Utah. With your boss. As a matter of fact, didn't your boss bail early and leave you to the annual business meeting by yourself?

Yeah, as I think about it more, you're right. He did. And yeah, not much to see or do in Ogden. Except talk about Railway Museums. And I was the youngest person there by about 10 years.

[FoUTASportscaster]

When I click on the pictures it just takes me to the Image Shack home page.

Any chance the images could be posted at a size where the type is legible? I'd love to read it!

Thanks

I am on it.

[Haretip]

Yeah, as I think about it more, you're right. He did. And yeah, not much to see or do in Ogden. Except talk about Railway Museums. And I was the youngest person there by about 10 years.

That would have made you about 22 unless you meant to say present company excluded.

[CityLove]

^OK, so I was off by a couple of years. And I'd say that the same rule just about applied to you too.

[FoUTASportscaster]

After weeks of researching over the past few months, a have completed a map of historic streetcar lines from its beginnings in 1872 to its final run in 1956.

http://www.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111053706958580298750.0004477da882a2f7e7baa&z=12

[ajackmeh16]

^ That seems like it would've been a pretty impressive system.

[Haretip]

I noticed a schematic route map of the dallas system on eBay the other day, although I'm not sure if it was in an auction or a store.

Sorry no specifics on the Fort Worth mileage at this time. You would pretty much just have to trace the routes out and then add up the mileage, which I haven't had time to mess with here lately.

[FoUTASportscaster]

I am about to order a Fort Worth map from the library from 1907. I'll trace it and post it. Dallas was lucky that the Northern Texas Traction Co. didn't run much of the Dallas streetcar lines, like they did in Fort Worth. All rail operation for the NTTC ceased in the '30's, twenty years before Dallas operations halted.

[Haretip]

Let me know if you need help adding the interurban routes. I've traced several in vehicle and have the Myers book with maps.

[sogod]

Wow, thats a great map. Good job.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Thank you. I've put countless hours into getting this done. I appreciate the positive feedback.

After weeks of researching over the past few months, a have completed a map of historic streetcar lines from its beginnings in 1872 to its final run in 1956.

http://www.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111053706958580298750.0004477da882a2f7e7baa&z=12


I've updated the map to included the names of the various lines, which peaked at 27.

Let me know if you need help adding the interurban routes. I've traced several in vehicle and have the Myers book with maps.

Correct me if I am wrong, as I will research the interurbans after I have finished the streetcar chapter, but Terrell followed the old T&P Line east, Sherman/Denison followed the current Red Line/UP tracks north, the Denton followed the UP Line around Love Field north to Denton and the Fort Worth followed Jefferson/Abrams/Division/Lancaster Road, right? Only the Waco and Corsicana Lines no longer have distinguishable ROW, right?

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

I found this website with the list and photos of all known surviving Dallas Railway & Terminal streetcars:

http://www.bera.org/cgi-bin/pnaerc-query.pl?sel_allown=Dallas+Railway+%26+Terminal&match_target=&Tech=Yes&pagelen=200

Here's a cool ex-Dallas car in Maine:

http://images.nycsubway.org/i37000/img_37901.jpg

Of course, some of them are in pretty bad shape but still operable:

http://www.davesrailpix.com/hicks/jpg/hicks302.jpg

http://abpr.railfan.net/january02/01-10-02/DaLLaSRy_Trm608atSeashoreME5-26-93TW.jpg

Question: this car is owned by DART and stored in their Monroe shops. Does anyone know anything about it?

http://images.nycsubway.org/i38000/img_38242.jpg

[Haretip]

That would be No. 746 which MATA and some subcontractors restored for DART for their proposed transit museum/display at Monroe Shops that apparently never materialized. I heard a rumor several months back that MATA was going to borrow the car from DART and put it in service on McKinney Avenue, but not sure where that stands. They are still waiting for 754 to return from the rebuilder in Florida.

I designed the new truck bolsters that were used on 746.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

That would be No. 746 which MATA and some subcontractors restored for DART for their proposed transit museum/display at Monroe Shops that apparently never materialized. I heard a rumor several months back that MATA was going to borrow the car from DART and put it in service on McKinney Avenue, but not sure where that stands. They are still waiting for 754 to return from the rebuilder in Florida.

I designed the new truck bolsters that were used on 746.


That's interesting. It seems like MATA has a bunch of cars in the process of restoration. When are they going to build a bigger barn to store them all?

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

Here's another one. Anyone know if it is still there?

http://i11.ebayimg.com/03/i/001/24/ee/1c75_1.JPG

"This is a 2000 photo taken from the original negative of Dallas Railway & Terminal Co streetcar #772 in Cameron Texas.This was the last car to run on the final day of service on Jan 15,1956"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370151350483&fromMakeTrack=true#ebayphotohosting

[Haretip]

I think it is. Don't recall hearing of it being bulldozed in the last 9 years. Also, the roster you linked to is for Preserved North American Electric Railway Cars. That doesn't include the dozens of Dallas streetcar bodies that are still in the wild. Only cars that have been acquired by people with the intent of preserving them. If they still are being used for hunting cabins, chicken coops, bbqs, houses of ill-repute or whatever, they are not on the roster.