Downtown resurrection suggestions

[xen0blue]

I've got a couple of suggestions to improve the downtown experience. Tell me what you think. Also, anyone know how I can send this to city hall/the mayor/city planner?

1. Outlaw the building of surface level parking lots. Make it so anyone who wants a parking lot on a plot of land must make the parking lot at least 5 stories, and give the owners two years to start building it or risk losing their property to the city.

2. advertise the underground shopping tunnels. hardly anyone even knows they exist and they need to be advertised. build a couple stairs in the sidewalk downtown leading down to the tunnels and put signs up advertising their location and existence.

3. Entertainment. there is nothing to do entertainment-wise downtown. I think the first step would be to get a movie theater somewhere downtown, and then the rest will follow. this is sorely needed.

4. non-clothing retail. all that is downtown are high-end clothe shops, it needs variety. I guarantee you if you put a best buy, circuit city, fry's or compusa downtown, that will become the busiest street downtown. Adding things like music stores, furniture stores, maybe a hardware store would do wonders for the CBD.

[amshepar]

I agree with all of what you are saying but a lot of it is unreasonable.

1) i hate surface parking and think it is such a waste to the space that is there, however, garage parking downtown is way more expensive than street level parking. Every day i pass the surface lot on St. Paul just south of the St. Paul train stop. I've seen the parking lot from Chapparal's inside the Adam's mark and puts a huge eye sore on the view from up there. I think it is a necessary evil though because it is cheaper than garage parking and there is not enough capacity in these buildings to sustain the occupants as well as people that would be parking on the street.

2) the tunnels are packed during the day for lunch. Going to Poblano's or Subway in 1700 Pacific between 1130 and 130 and you are going to have to wait in a line that stretches longer then the restaurant. Also, at the renaissance tower where Chick Fila is, the wait over there is horrible. People don't want to go to these places at night, that is why they aren't open. People like to look out windows of a restaurant which you don't have in the tunnels. I do think the surface needs more fast food restaurants though. It would greatly increase foot traffic outside.

3) i am 100% on board with your assesment here. Having the Majestic and the HOB downtown helps, but not everyone wants to go to a concert every night. A movie theater would help a lot. Especially given the condition of the Lowes Cityplace theater. That place scares my girlfriend every time we go there. Independent theaters are already pretty abundant relatively close to downtown though, but an AMC or Cinemark would be great.

4) This is definitely needed but will almost for certain never happen. These electronic stores do over 1000 sales a day. In 2011 or whenever all these residential places are done, there will be around 10k people living downtown. 10% of the downtown community is not going to a big box electronics retailer every day. However, if this was in a spot that was attractive to both downtown and uptown, then it would be potentially good. I wonder why more retailers down here don't look at multilevel retail space like they do in other big cities. But a bestbuy that is setup like Neiman's downtown would attract people to it for the sheer fact that people will say to their friends "Hey, have you been the 6 story Bestbuy downtown?"

5) To add my own suggestion, i think downtown needs more chain restaurants. I went to Chili's 2 weekends ago for the first time in over a year. I try to avoid chains because i think the food quality is not as good for the same price as other places, plus i'd rather support a local restaurant. However, chain restaurants bring in a ton of revenue and always have waits to be seated during prime time eating hours. A lot of business men that travel eat at chains when they are out eating by themselves because they know the food is consistently average.


I've got a couple of suggestions to improve the downtown experience. Tell me what you think. Also, anyone know how I can send this to city hall/the mayor/city planner?

1. Outlaw the building of surface level parking lots. Make it so anyone who wants a parking lot on a plot of land must make the parking lot at least 5 stories, and give the owners two years to start building it or risk losing their property to the city.

2. advertise the underground shopping tunnels. hardly anyone even knows they exist and they need to be advertised. build a couple stairs in the sidewalk downtown leading down to the tunnels and put signs up advertising their location and existence.

3. Entertainment. there is nothing to do entertainment-wise downtown. I think the first step would be to get a movie theater somewhere downtown, and then the rest will follow. this is sorely needed.

4. non-clothing retail. all that is downtown are high-end clothe shops, it needs variety. I guarantee you if you put a best buy, circuit city, fry's or compusa downtown, that will become the busiest street downtown. Adding things like music stores, furniture stores, maybe a hardware store would do wonders for the CBD.

[dfwcre8tive]

5) To add my own suggestion, i think downtown needs more chain restaurants. I went to Chili's 2 weekends ago for the first time in over a year. I try to avoid chains because i think the food quality is not as good for the same price as other places, plus i'd rather support a local restaurant. However, chain restaurants bring in a ton of revenue and always have waits to be seated during prime time eating hours. A lot of business men that travel eat at chains when they are out eating by themselves because they know the food is consistently average.

Plenty of those in the West End.

[LH_Newbie]

Chili's is owned by Brinker, based in Dallas - just off of LBJ. It actually is a locally owned chain. :)

[CityLove]

Not bad suggestions, but I'd like to see them modified a little, if it were up to me (which, of course, it isn't...but a girl can dream, right?)


I've got a couple of suggestions to improve the downtown experience. Tell me what you think. Also, anyone know how I can send this to city hall/the mayor/city planner?

1. Outlaw the building of surface level parking lots. Make it so anyone who wants a parking lot on a plot of land must make the parking lot at least 5 stories, and give the owners two years to start building it or risk losing their property to the city.

Although, I love this idea, I don't know that you could legally do this. However, it's a great show of idealism. Surface parking kills the pedestrian environment downtown, and I'd love to see those lots built on. If we have to have parking, make it garages with street-level retail.


2. advertise the underground shopping tunnels. hardly anyone even knows they exist and they need to be advertised. build a couple stairs in the sidewalk downtown leading down to the tunnels and put signs up advertising their location and existence.

I've got a better idea...move the underground shopping to the street level! I'm not advocating any radical plan to shut down the tunnels in one fell swoop or anything (b/c I know people will jump down my throat if I do that...I've seen it happen on this forum). But the city should find a way to slowly encourage those businesses to move to street level and stay open past business hours. I know we might not have the resident base to support it YET, but I guarantee you this would increase vibrancy and start to bring people to downtown who don't live there.

The problem with advertising the tunnels is that they don't stay open past 5 or on the weekends anyway...so they aren't really any good to anyone but the office workers. And I know a lot of people don't like the idea of closing the tunnels, but that, I believe, is more a reaction to change than anything. If they'd never been built in the first place, you wouldn't miss them. People in DTFW seem to do just fine without them.


3. Entertainment. there is nothing to do entertainment-wise downtown. I think the first step would be to get a movie theater somewhere downtown, and then the rest will follow. this is sorely needed.

Yes, yes, yes! I would LOVE a theater downtown. And you're right...it should be a mainstream theater, not an indie, cuz we have several of those close by. As much as I love my indie films, it's just as easy to go to the West Village or take the train up to Mockingbird Station when I want to see one. It's far more difficult to get to a good mainstream theater in the area.


4. non-clothing retail. all that is downtown are high-end clothe shops, it needs variety. I guarantee you if you put a best buy, circuit city, fry's or compusa downtown, that will become the busiest street downtown. Adding things like music stores, furniture stores, maybe a hardware store would do wonders for the CBD.

I also agree with this. We need more "regular-people" stores. However, I also see the problem with these retail giants locating downtown, and why they haven't yet...money money money. I don't think their cost-benefit analyses generally come out looking too good. Also, I'd like to see these not be chains, but rather local establishments. That's just my idealism though, and since we live in a world of chain-stores, that may never be possible.

Good suggestions though. I like your way of thinking.

[tamtagon]

There's no doubt in my mind that as the CBD residential population begins to entice street level cafes to operate during dinner and late night hours, office workers currently limited to tunnel lunch and breakfast establishments will return to the surface in force. The desolation of the CBD after 6:00 pm makes a street level store front too much of a liability, risking 12 hours of exposure to "the elements." As soon as there are enough people living downtown to allow service industry providers a reason to stay open during the evening they will, and these street level establishments will totally make bank on the swarm of office workers going outside for lunch. During the last 20 years, the tunnels have been forced to function as a collective offsite break room. The office enviroment has suffered because of it, and the tunnels have been blamed as part of the problem with downtown. The only role, function, appropriate for tunnels is to accommodate the most mundane, perfunctory tasks associated with a large employment center.

Less surface parking, more varied entertainment opportunities, retail appealing to the broadest possible clientelle will all manifest during the next couple years. It's human nature to want the experience of a crowded, bustling street. Because there are still 125,000 (+/-) 9-5ers in the CBD eager for a few minutes in the outside air every afternoon, the switch from barren and oppressive to vibrant and exciting seemingly will happen almost overnight. ETA - summer/fall 2008.

[RadicalBender]

Those electronics stores will never set up downtown, but that has more to say about the electronics retailers themselves.

You see, I don't know if you noticed, but all the electronics retailers are in a tail spin. They seem to be barely hanging on to financial solvency. With Wal-Mart actively gunning for them now, that's kind of the third strike (with already-high prices and poor customer service being the other two).

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/apr2007/db20070423_364297.htm?campaign_id=rss_topStories

Electronics retailers can hardly afford to keep their existing stores open, much less open new stores in lower-traffic locations like what downtown Dallas still is.

[rantanamo]

The electronics store model is simply outdated. Brick and mortar stores are simply outpriced by the biggie online retailers. You do have a few like Fry's though who are able to compete price-wise because each store is so large and they actually house products that one could otherwise only find online.

My biggest thing for a resurrection is to please demolish the school and get some retail at that intersection. You have most DART riders passing that station, and lots of people driving in and out of downtown there. Not to mention visibility from the Spur. We've argued that parcel forever here, but its 4 years later and its still there rotting away. Time to do something with it.

[I45Tex]

No, we've absolutely got to ask ourselves how to turn the tunnels into some attractive kind of advantage, rather than merely reducing the ways in which they are a disadvantage. So we agree that that won't be to leave them as the urban core's break room, and we suspect that on clear nights and off of midday hours in general the tunnels will ideally be at a big disadvantage to the outdoors. But we haven't got a new role for the underground square footage yet. I have one but I'll hold it in for a while while we brainstorm.



Although, I love this idea, I don't know that you could legally do this. However, it's a great show of idealism. Surface parking kills the pedestrian environment downtown, and I'd love to see those lots built on. If we have to have parking, make it garages with street-level retail.


I've got a better idea...move the underground shopping to the street level! I'm not advocating any radical plan to shut down the tunnels in one fell swoop or anything (b/c I know people will jump down my throat if I do that...I've seen it happen on this forum). But the city should find a way to slowly encourage those businesses to move to street level and stay open past business hours. I know we might not have the resident base to support it YET, but I guarantee you this would increase vibrancy and start to bring people to downtown who don't live there.

The problem with advertising the tunnels is that they don't stay open past 5 or on the weekends anyway...so they aren't really any good to anyone but the office workers. And I know a lot of people don't like the idea of closing the tunnels, but that, I believe, is more a reaction to change than anything. If they'd never been built in the first place, you wouldn't miss them. People in DTFW seem to do just fine without them.

[LH_Newbie]

The tunnels do have some advantages we should not forget:

- When it rains, it could give people an escape from rain
- When it's hot (or snowing), it could also give people an escape.

I don't think we should get rid of them at all. I know when I've been downtown working, it's nice to go to lunch and not have to go out in 100 degree weather during the summer. Am I the only one that likes that?

[vman]

The tunnels do have some advantages we should not forget:

- When it rains, it could give people an escape from rain
- When it's hot (or snowing), it could also give people an escape.

I don't think we should get rid of them at all. I know when I've been downtown working, it's nice to go to lunch and not have to go out in 100 degree weather during the summer. Am I the only one that likes that?
Not at all. I've never had a problem with the tunnels. Unlike FW, Dallas is city that catches on to trends, even architectural ones, and like other sunbelt cities like Houston and Atlanta, the tunnel systems were a trend that was actually meant to do good, not evil. The tunnel eateries are mostly geared toward office workers and not only does it offer a retreat for our harsh summers, but the food-court like setting offers them a chance to get out of the office, get a nearby quick meal, and not have to wait at a busy dive for a table. And if these businesses moved to street level, DTD would be full of fast food joints. During business hours, I think DTD is very active. Most of the people that patronize the tunnels leave DTD after work anyway, so they wouldn't be here to utilize the eateries if they were on street level. And noone is going to drive to DTD to eat at ChickFila.

I view the tunnel almost as I view DTD's skycrapers...as testement that Dallas has always strived to be a modern, sophisticated city, and for better or worse, at one time those tunnels were just that. I think they should be considered just as much of a DTD landmark as Fountain Place...but that's just me.

[elmstreetdallas]

Sure the tunnels are convenient. But the problem is, they take pedestrians off the streets above, which gives the perception that downtown is desolate, which further compounds the perceptions that downtown is unsafe, boring, no vitality, no life -- basically has nothing to offer.

And we all know that perception counts for everything.

A downtown that 7-8 years ago was on the verge of death, and is now trying to make a comeback, simply can't afford those perceptions.

[TexasStar]

How would the best interests of DTD be served? By filling the tunnels with concrete and forcing commerce to return to street level.

I will never give a dime to a tunnel business. But, apparently, that's just me.

[xen0blue]

Sure the tunnels are convenient. But the problem is, they take pedestrians off the streets above, which gives the perception that downtown is desolate, which further compounds the perceptions that downtown is unsafe, boring, no vitality, no life -- basically has nothing to offer.

And we all know that perception counts for everything.

A downtown that 7-8 years ago was on the verge of death, and is now trying to make a comeback, simply can't afford those perceptions.

That's why there need to be stairs in the sidewalk that lead down to the tunnels, so more people will be forced to walk around outside instead of going in the buildings to get down to the tunnels. People getting out and coming back in to the tunnels all the time would encourage movement.

But seriously, we are focusing way too much on the tunnels. What about the other stuff?

[vman]

But seriously, we are focusing way too much on the tunnels. What about the other stuff?
Agreed. What downtown needs is to offer more establishments that people are willing to leave the tunnels for. Stephen Pyles places is always packed at lunch, so is West End, as well as the MCDONALD'S on Commerce. People seem more than willing to opt to walk outside of the tunnel for things they want. Would I walk six DTD blocks in the scorching summer for Taco Bell, no. Would I do it to shop and lounge at a bookstore, like Half-price or B&N...yes. I would also do it to catch a movie, or eat a popular chain place like Cheesecake Factory. Blaming tunnels full of fast good joints is crazy, IMO. I don't see them stopping people from going anywhrere in DTD that they really want to go. That's why I'm glad to see places like Opening Bell coffehouse come to DTD. That's what DTD needs more off, local, unique places, as well as huge draws like a movie theater or an upscale bowling alley.

[LH_Newbie]

Agreed. What downtown needs is to offer more establishments that people are willing to leave the tunnels for. Stephen Pyles places is always packed at lunch, so is West End, as well as the MCDONALD'S on Commerce. People seem more than willing to opt to walk outside of the tunnel for things they want. Would I walk six DTD blocks in the scorching summer for Taco Bell, no. Would I do it to shop and lounge at a bookstore, like Half-price or B&N...yes. I would also do it to catch a movie, or eat a popular chain place like Cheesecake Factory. Blaming tunnels full of fast good joints is crazy, IMO. I don't see them stopping people from going anywhrere in DTD that they really want to go. That's why I'm glad to see places like Opening Bell coffehouse come to DTD. That's what DTD needs more off, local, unique places, as well as huge draws like a movie theater or an upscale bowling alley.
The tunnels have their purpose - I think we agree. In fact, when DTD gets fully established - the "sunken fast food joints" will probably end up staying open much later. Now, on to the meat of your point...

More places at street level. That's what we need. Of course, you have to have people down there to actually go to them. Dallas has certainly made great strides to get people to live in the CBD. As people move there - I think the business community will see the potential and get facilities in place to service those people.

Does anyone have a resident count for the CBD area? What is it today and how many units are going in?

[FoUTASportscaster]

I will never give a dime to a tunnel business. But, apparently, that's just me.

Nope, same here. I was appalled at the activity I saw down there, when at the same time there wasn't much on the street, except vacant storefronts. Anyone wondering why downtown Dallas is characterized as a souless city center with no activity should look no further.


That's why there need to be stairs in the sidewalk that lead down to the tunnels, so more people will be forced to walk around outside instead of going in the buildings to get down to the tunnels. People getting out and coming back in to the tunnels all the time would encourage movement.

But seriously, we are focusing way too much on the tunnels. What about the other stuff?

I think in actuallity, that would encourage more people to leave the streets rather than vice versa. The tunnels help exacerbate the stereotype that streets are unsafe. People wouldn't leave the tunnels to the street. They already know how to get to the street if they wanted.

Also, the tunnels won't stay open past 6 because it is predominantly owned by the offices they are under. Getting 20+ property owners to agree to keep their fortresses open after buisness will be virtually impossible. Thereby resisdents will have little use for them and the street will continue to under preform, as the tunnels sap their vitality.

[xen0blue]

The tunnels have their purpose - I think we agree. In fact, when DTD gets fully established - the "sunken fast food joints" will probably end up staying open much later. Now, on to the meat of your point...

More places at street level. That's what we need. Of course, you have to have people down there to actually go to them. Dallas has certainly made great strides to get people to live in the CBD. As people move there - I think the business community will see the potential and get facilities in place to service those people.

Does anyone have a resident count for the CBD area? What is it today and how many units are going in?

again, can we not focus on the tunnels? I think that subject has pretty much been beaten to death...what about my other suggestions in the first post?

[SDORN]

3. Entertainment. there is nothing to do entertainment-wise downtown. I think the first step would be to get a movie theater somewhere downtown, and then the rest will follow. this is sorely needed.

Ok I definately agree with this one.
The Electronic store isn't a bad idea either. Best Buy seem to be the best fit. They carry the best of everything. ( This coming from former Comp employee ha) How about or Barnes and Noble or a borders in the Arts district or on Main Street somewhere. Particularly in the area between St paul and pearl. I think they should alter the park plan some. Tear down the main street garage and build a Barnes and Noble there. Convert the surface parking lot to a multilevel garage. it would probably be neccesary to take out the Main Street Cafe building to accommadate this plan.

[FoUTASportscaster]

the vast majority of big box retailers won'tcome downtown. There isn't the space for their sterile buildings and huge lots, each of which they have a hard time operating without and can't adapt to the region. That is one reason why suburbs look virtually the same from coast-to-coast. The cookie cutter mold that big box retailers use would have to be dramtically altered and then they see the risk rise and won't invest.

Also I believe for downtown to be successful, the retail options need to be unique. If you put a Best buy in downtown, that won't get people in from elsewhere, they will just go to the nearest one in their area, which is usually more convenient too, because of the huge free surface lots and lack of adequate transit outside the core.

A better example may be a Bose store, or an individual manufacturer, like a Sony Store. Then you offer something unique and also people would go a little further and pay to park. Then they get integrated in the urban environs and bring buisness to other areas.

Just make sure you don't connect them to the tunnels. (Ducks from thrown objects)

[I45Tex]

By the time DTD gets a major-footprint chain to set up shop, the neighborhood-as-a-place-to-live would already have succeeded in its own right. Ergo, these parts of the wishlist would just be garnish, not keys to resurrection.

[I45Tex]

I used to repeatedly hear tell of how much Class C space remained in downtown at bargain prices. If I knew how much of this is still in use, how much is stagnant, and how much is being altered for residential use, I could comment more firmly, yet: Do the conditions exist for firms to locate downtown which are just starting up operations and hoping to grow? It would be good for downtown if its business community has a dense enough web of relationships that this is able to serve as an attractor for businesses that were seeking an edge. Does the Richardson/North Dallas Telecom Corridor have that kind of helpful human continuity?
Manhattan offers that kind of edge because specialists are available nearby to quickly move forward on something unique. We probably lose something if information-service companies which are looking to grow have only distended freeway corridors to anonymously and isolatedly office in and go about their business.

Could downtown tunnel space become an incubator for a generation of firms which would make DTD more financially dynamic than a collection of law firms and big corporate banks have been doing? Could they link together and then fuel a wave of office expansions in the ensuing five years or so? With the prospect of having windows, they would surely have an reason to grow out of the tunnels and make way for more.

[xen0blue]

I used to repeatedly hear tell of how much Class C space remained in downtown at bargain prices. If I knew how much of this is still in use, how much is stagnant, and how much is being altered for residential use, I could comment more firmly, yet: Do the conditions exist for firms to locate downtown which are just starting up operations and hoping to grow? It would be good for downtown if its business community has a dense enough web of relationships that this is able to serve as an attractor for businesses that were seeking an edge. Does the Richardson/North Dallas Telecom Corridor have that kind of helpful human continuity?
Manhattan offers that kind of edge because specialists are available nearby to quickly move forward on something unique. We probably lose something if information-service companies which are looking to grow have only distended freeway corridors to anonymously and isolatedly office in and go about their business.

Could downtown tunnel space become an incubator for a generation of firms which would make DTD more financially dynamic than a collection of law firms and big corporate banks have been doing? Could they link together and then fuel a wave of office expansions in the ensuing five years or so? With the prospect of having windows, they would surely have an reason to grow out of the tunnels and make way for more.

What about an office depot? Tons of law firms & banks= a perfect fit!

[Lionel Hutz]

I just got back from another 4 days in Chicago, and coming back here is absolutely depressing.

Chicago is a "can do" city. Dallas, not so much.

The biggest key for me in downtown Chicago was the seamless transitions from different areas. We took the Red Line down to Museum Campus and walked back to our hotel on the Gold Coast, some 4 miles away. And it was a breeze. From the Field Museum, you go through this beautifully landscaped area right to Grant Park and to Buckingham Fountain. Then you are at Millenium Park. Then you are on Michigan Avenue, south of the River, and you just walk up Michigan Ave., through the Loop, to the other side of the River, and back to the Gold Coast. There were no dull moments. There was always something to see or do between neighborhoods.

Imagine walking from Fair Park to Uptown. It would be horrible. There would be so many dead spots where you are walking through the middle of nothing. But that could change. From the museums in Fair Park, you could walk through a cool Exposition Park, through Deep Ellum, and up Pearl, past the Woodall Rogers park and into Uptown. Those areas could be filled in with some cool stuff. The DART rail could pay off huge.

[rantanamo]

Transitions never seem to fill in here. Developers just move on to the next big thing and don't come back. Look at the West Village area. On fire for a while. Before the lots could even fully connect it with the Cityplace station it seems that developers have moved on to Lower McKinney and now Ross Ave. Its like Dallas is the anxious DIYer that has so many project it wants to do, that instead of logically fulfilling the potential of a few related projects, it constantly moves to the next project elsewhere in the house. While a place like Chicago understands how the projects relate to each other and encourage development in these patterns. I don't know how this changes. Perhaps with time as there are less and less buildable lots. But it seems an area has to be struck while its hot or you'll end up with many empty lots.

[elmstreetdallas]

Comparing Dallas with other cities is futile. It will just make you crazy.

Chicago is the "primary" city for the entire state of Illinois. Dallas must compete (at least indirectly) with Houston, San Antonio, Fort Worth and Austin (one of the "hottest" cities in the country). Just think, if you combined the metro areas of all of those Texas cities into one (which is basically what Illinois has with Chicago), that super metro area would be MUCH larger than Chicago. Actually, it would be approaching LA size.

Chicago is also a MUCH older city than Dallas. The first issue of the "Chicago Tribune" came out almost a decade before Dallas was even incorporated. So when you consider that Chicago is MANY decades older than Dallas, and that it is the only major city in the state of Illinois, the comparison with Dallas is completely unjust.

So appreciate Dallas for what it is, and for what it's becoming. Dallas is a work in progress. Right now is actually one of the most exciting times EVER to be in Dallas.

[Columbus Civil]

DT is a money pit. We should spend our money elsewhere.

[Lakewooder]

CC, always the provocateur!

[BryanSmyth]

For the past two years, I split my time between Dallas (Bryan Place) and Chicago (Lincoln Park - Diversey) and I absolutely loved Chicago and Dallas for different reasons in the beginning. Things have changed though. I still love Chicago, but I am currently one straw away from giving up on Dallas. And it's not anything to do with comparing both places. I'm just tired of believing in Dallas. It's sad...but I think I'm ready for a move.
:crycloud:

[rantanamo]

Yup, we should set a precedent for US cities and concentrate all of our money and firepower on the Super Star Destroyer

http://kimskorner.zed1.net/albums/Answers/AdmiralAckbar.jpg

[Columbus Civil]

its a trap!

[Lakewooder]

I can't move to Chicago- I can't keep up with the drinkers there!

[jsoto3]

Chicago is also a MUCH older city than Dallas. The first issue of the "Chicago Tribune" came out almost a decade before Dallas was even incorporated. So when you consider that Chicago is MANY decades older than Dallas, and that it is the only major city in the state of Illinois, the comparison with Dallas is completely unjust.


Chicago is not that much older than Dallas. Chicago was founded in 1833, Dallas in 1841. It just profited from its better geography and grew more quickly than did Dallas.

[Lakewooder]

Well, Chicago burned in what, 1871? So they got a chance to start over...

[rantanamo]

Dallas has favorable Geography right now to become a domestic hub like Chicago. Its up to us to get things right. I think the stupid Trinity Tollway is one of those barriers.

[Columbus Civil]

Lakewooder, what was Dallas like in the 1840s?

[Lakewooder]

Hey, I'm not that old!

[elmstreetdallas]

Chicago was INCORPORATED in 1833, not FOUNDED. Dallas was incorporated as a city in 1856. But the history of the first settlement on the Chicago River goes back decades before that:

1772

A black man from Haiti named Jean-Baptiste Pointe du Sable, a fur trader, founded a settlement called Eschikagou on the north bank of the Chicago River. (He was not officially recognized as the city's founder until 1968.)

Sable is considered the "founder" of Chicago. 1772.

[vman]

Because of Chicago's age, industry, climate and geography, the city grew much differently than Dallas in almost every way. Dallas really bloomed after the automobile and freeway became part of everyday American life. The infrastructure of these cities are so varied, it makes little sense to seriously compare the urbanity of the two.

[Lakewooder]

Yep one of the first things in the Real Estate degree track is studying how geography and roads shape a city. With Lake Michigan, Chicago was bound to be more dense...too bad they weren't able to stop Mrs. O'Leary's cow complications with all that water...

[gshelton91]

Here are a few of my thoughts --
1) Better advertising for what we have downtown now -- It seems a lot is going on downtown and around downtown that many people never know about - specifically i would add decorative towers at major interchanges around the city where banners could be posted about what is happening downtown. A demonstration of this might be the tower in front of Victory Plaza with the Electronic signs facing 3 directions or or the large wall on the front of the DMA where they often hang banners showing what is happening.

2) work with businesses to create unique advantages for downtown businesses that would lure new businesses to downtown (what is the advantage of putting your office in downtown Dallas? we will do better as a city if we can create an answer other then tax breaks because that is not a unique advantage it is easily matched) -- an idea to demonstrate the city and business league could work with Baylor to open a set of high-tech clinics downtown part of the benefits to business is less employee downtime going to the doctor -- Cisco is investing in a clinic at their campus in CA partly for this reason(weather this is a good idea or not it is the only example i could come up with at the moment)

3) Take advantage of regional events like Cowboy games to lure people down town with downtown branded regional advertising and concerts -- even a big tailgate party at victory to watch the game with other fans who don't have tickets...

4) Rather then offer money to get a convention center hotel to come to town beef up the Dallas Zoo (just 2 DART Stops away) as a bigger destination and create a water based destination that all the downtown Hotels could sell as a reason to stay downtown -- a rising tide floats all boats.

5) better clearer and faster transportation to surrounding downtown districts -- deep ellum, Uptown, victory, Knox/Hinderson, Lowest Greenville. Southside, This doesn't have to be Streetcars -- can be buses but ones that have diffrent colors, with serface markers so people know exactly where the bus is going (like what tracks do for streetcars) and limited stops. --- so one might go from west end up Ross with a couple of stops downtown then past Central would probably not stop again until Lowest Greenville then return.

6) As we create these parks downtown keep an eye out for things we can offer residents -- for example BBQ Grills -- Fountains kids can play in -- lawns to lay out in -- Volleyball Courts -- tennis Courts (don't build cute little concert areas unless you also plan to create an organization that would fill the site with music-- i have seen so many around the city that go unused)

7) provide more public bike storage around the city and bike lanes so we have the option to bike if we want to.

ok that is enough for now... just my 2cents.

[elmstreetdallas]

Bravo gshelt!

I think you have some fantastic ideas. I've always felt that many of Dallas' positives go almost entirely unnoticed. Even by Dallas residents. Such a shame.

And I think that many people on this board either forget, or refuse to acknowledge, that Dallas without question is a top 10 American city. In every respect. Personally I wouldn't even know where to BEGIN to list all the things that I think make Dallas a great city.

Think about that. There are 10s of thousands of cities in the United States. But you can count on your two hands the number of cities that can legitimately claim to offer more than DFW.

If someone wants to leave Dallas and move to Chicago, I don't have a problem with that at all. In fact I'm absolutely in love with Chicago. In some respects I think it's the greatest city in the United States.

Just remember though, if you're dissatisfied with Dallas and contemplating a move, your short list must be VERY short indeed.

[Lionel Hutz]

We'd better get a street level Dunkin' Donuts in the next few years downtown. The company is planning on opening 125 new stores in DFW. Currently, there are only 3 stores in the Metroplex.

I think a downtown Dunkin Donuts would do well. The anti-Starbucks crowd will go there for coffee, and I know a lot of office workers will stop there for donuts or to buy a big box of Munchkins for their co-workers.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-dunkin_08bus.ART.State.Edition1.372c1ce.html

[J. Will]

Remember when talking about big box retailers that they don't have to have their own building with adjacent surface parking. About 6 months ago Best Buy opened this store in downtown Toronto (see pic). The bottom two floors are about 150,000 square feet of retail (Best Buy, Canadian Tire, Mark's Work Wearhouse). Above that are two floors of parking, and above that are two or three floors for Ryerson University's Business School.

This is not a "mini Best Buy" or anything like that either. This is a full-size store like you'd find in the suburbs. Sometimes I go there on my lunch break, and this is probably busier than the suburban stores because there are so many office workers dropping by during lunch and other breaks.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/jwill_01/Resized_testPics004-2.jpg?t=1178648847

[rantanamo]

Toronto is slightly more urban than Dallas. We're simply not there yet.

[frankchitown]

Downtown Dallas needs a gay bar. If the Dallas Roof Gardens went queer that place would be bustling with business, and soon the cafes, boutiques, bookstores, etc would follow.

[tamtagon]

Downtown Dallas also needs a flagship JCPenny department store.

[dallasag00]

Baltimore just got a BestBuy across from their inner harbor too. Not a big box

[Lionel Hutz]

If DFW based companies opened up stores in downtown Dallas, we'd have something. A Cinemark movie theater. A Chili's restaurant. A Pier 1 Imports. JC Penny store. Dave & Buster's. Harold's. Fossil. Michael's. Zales. And a bunch of other stuff I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

[DalMac]

^A flagship Dave & Buster's at the former West End Marketplace would do well.