Uptown: Cityplace West + West Village

[psukhu]

Yeah, can you imagine what the property tax is on that lot?

A few years from now, they might have to charge $30 for a bucket of balls just to stay in business! :) But at that price point, people would just drive a few miles away to places that are charging $5 to $10 a bucket.

In economics, this would be a classic example of the "shutdown case". Their revenue would never be able to be higher than their operating cost, no matter how much they charged.

They don’t own the land, so expect the owner to do whatever brings him the most $$$. See West Village rendering above.

[gc]

I understand the economics surrounding the driving range, but even for the non-golfers (like myself) you have to admit that it is cetainly unique in an urban environment.

[mikedsjr]

The only thing i wonder is what do the dwellers of the neighboorhood think of looking outside their windows or strolling down the street and seeing nets towering into the sky. I would imagine for them its an eyesore.

[JaeTex]

I never regarded it as an eyesore. Nets don't block the view. A brick wall or office building will. I think we all understand that the clock is counting down on the thing, that there are more profitable uses and that that is "progress" but in 20 years will the people on this board be posting remember when pictures of the thing and wondering how stupid we were for putting up another apartment block or office building on the site? I mean the demise of theaters except the Majestic in DT is universally mourned by us now, but it made eminent economic sense when it happened.

[gc]

wow, excellent question JaeTex. In fact, that question can be directed at most developments. Does anyone remember the posts by DallasSmokestacks about a year ago?

[mikedsjr]

Jaetex,

Thanks for letting me know. I think it would be great for it to stay but being near downtown dallas i do realize that in a few years it might not be feasible to keep it there.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Indeed... If there were some way to renovate the golf center, and make it really beautiful, standing out in a way that isn't just "oh, wow, this is here?" then i think it probably should stay. But as has been said, costs would be amazingly high. It's different from the theaters downtown. Ticket prices for theaters in those-type of venues can be expensive, and probably were before. People would probably still pay. in 20 years, with all the area around the driving range built out, it would be on such expensive land that you would be paying through the wall to use it. I think reality is that this will be going away, because driving ranges just aren't that unique and people will always want to go somewhere cheaper.

[patmns]

I agree about the renevation. If they could take down that chainlink fence that circles the property, and put up something that kind of looks like a country club. Again, the cost would be hard to justify.

[Kelley USA]

New update posted on the West Village website... We already know most of this- but here it goes---

In the heart of Dallas, on a little slice of utopia known as West Village, the dirt is really flying. (the good kind.)

West Village is growing north and east.
The expansion of West Village is underway. The new phase includes 4 blocks totaling 7 acres, which is being developed into 150,000 square feet of retail, 500 apartment homes and parking for 1800.

West Village has drawn raves since the opening of the first phase in 2001. And the new plan builds on the success of the concept a progressive street front, open-air neighborhood of shops and urban living spaces. You won't find cookie-cutter themed concepts here, but instead, a handcrafted mix of interesting shops, restaurants and services.

Here's the skinny on exactly what's happening.

To the east: A 26,500 square foot retail building anchored by a two-level Borders Books and Music, which will be the only major bookstore in the Uptown/Downtown area. Convenient banking for the pedestrian-friendly neighborhood will be offered by Chase Bank. Initial occupancy, July 2004.

On this parcel of land there are further plans for 29,000 square feet of retail and 150 high-end apartments.

To the northeast: The Waverly is in the works. This 20-story mid-rise tower with 218 luxury apartments and 20,000 square feet of retail is scheduled for completion early 2005.

To the northwest: On a 1.1 acre plot marked by our "It's Contagious" sign, another mid-rise is planned for 20,000 square feet of retail and 75 apartments. Ground breaking is set for summer 2004.

With the West Village expansion, McKinney Avenue and Cityplace West Boulevard are destined to become the great retail streets of Uptown Dallas. These next three development areas will accelerate that.

For a preview of what the future looks like, click the expansion master plan or expansion rendering links to the left. These groundbreaking expansion plans are produced by Cityplace Company and directed and marketed by Urban Partners, Inc.

[gc]

woooohoooo!

[jsoto3]

The Borders and Waverly are clipping along incredibly fast. Within the last two days they have erected the tilt-up concrete panels that will form the walls of the Borders.

[tamtagon]

To the northwest: On a 1.1 acre plot marked by our "It's Contagious" sign, another mid-rise is planned for 20,000 square feet of retail and 75 apartments. Ground breaking is set for summer 2004.

Does anyone have more info on this one?

[gc]

I had the same thought tamtagon, but have found nothing new.

[chiboi]

Does anyone know what is being done with the corner where the old Jennevine restaurant was? Previously it had a sign that said restaurant space for lease and I noticed it is now gone. This building looks horribly out of place!

[snooch]

What would you guys put there? In my opinion, Dallas needs a fabulous breakfast burrito stand, like Taco Shack in Austin. I don't know...maybe Uptown is too snooty for that kind of thing. The breakfast burritos might have to be some kind of wack combination of feta cheese, spinach, and ostrich egg.

[tamtagon]

I'd like to see a tattoo and piercing parlor, seriously though, a 24 hour quick service restaruant would be nice.

while I really would like to something more earthy in the West Village, I'll be happy with an establishment which is not part of a national chain. This area is a great addition to environs in Dallas, but I'll be happier when more independant operations settle in. As is it, this development is a small - rapidly expanding - open air mall with the same stores you would find in any Collin County enclosed mall. Of course, I do understand that well financed franchise operations are the logical first step in the rise of a new shopping venue, but I hope the local independants are not too far behind. McKinney Ave is finnally growing into it's potential with the doubleing of world class hotels in the south, and the growth of retail in the north.

Macy's would also be perfect on that corner, but for different reasons than the QSR or tattoo parlor.

[chiboi]

I vote for a cool, retro looking 24 hour diner

[Kelley USA]

I would actually like to see a few more national chains... I beleive it's important to have a good mix of national chains and local retailers. West Village has a pretty good mix- in fact I could only count 13 chains (including food / beverage) and 27 independent retailers (that's 68%)... I've been to both Willow Bend and Stonebriar in Frisco- and I'm pretty sure I didn't see most of these retailers their!!! but a development like this needs a Gap and Polo to draw people in... I'll be honest- when I go to West Village I only buy at the chain stores- can't ever really seem to find anything at the others... I think the national chains have helped make West Village as successful as it is!

[evdallas]

Originally posted by snooch
maybe Uptown is too snooty for that kind of thing.

I guess you have never been to the feed bag, the loon or hook line and sinker.

[snooch]

I stand humbly corrected! Sometimes I forget about those places.

[psukhu]

How about an English style pub? Maybe a sushi bar?

[bloodandpopcorn]

I'd love to see both of those in the WV... if they do a sushi bar, though, they should make one like you see all over japan... where the chefs are in the middle, you sit around them, and they place sushi on plates that go around on a conveyor belt. Plates are colored or patterened to reflect the price of that sushi, so at the end, a waitor or watiress just comes by and counts up how many of each color you have! It's the greatest thing. And, because it's so efficient etc., its often much cheaper than the standard sushi style restaurants, at least its that way in Japan.

[Kelley USA]

I would love to see a little Irish Pub with a cozy atmosphere that serves traditional Irish food like Fish N Chips and Irish Stew etc... I went to Ireland this past summer and they have some really cool places that offer live music and have great food!

[JaeTex]

there is a great looking irish pub on Mckinney...one problem though, the thing is chained shut.

Oh, how many times have I wished O'Dowds had not failed? It looks great inside, and is right across from S&D and the former Falk Fabric.

maybe if we all put our money together....

(if you're willing to go farther astray, try trinity hall at mock.sta.)

[tamtagon]

Tipparery Inn also closed.

[Bardy]

This isn't the best picture in the world, but I thought I'd provide another view of all the construction going on in the WV area (and beyond...)
Look at all those cranes!
(The picture was taken from my office which is north of Blackburn on the East side of Central) -- The view is to the south -- in it you can see the new construction on the Waverly (aka Mondrian?), the finished Bryson Place and (if you look closely) the start of WV phase II.

[CTroyMathis]

^ Right on. Thanks for the photo.

[ibryant]

Since someone brought up O'Dowds, I thought I would mention that as I was driving home the other day I noticed that the "For Lease" signs and banner have been taken down, and a permit from the City of Dallas is on the door. Man I hope they reopen that pub...I always enjoyed being able to walk to it.

Another thing...this question is probably in the wrong thread, but has anyone noticed the sign at the northwest corner of McKinney and Hall (I believe it's hall), right across from the Cafe Express that says, "Future Home of Sugar Film Productions"? Any idea what this is or when they will begin construction?

[aceplace]

Ibryant,

That's good news about the O'Dowd's location. When they were opened, I really enjoyed the place. I wonder who is coming in?

The thing about McKinney Ave places... the hoity-toity atmosphere doesn't seem to work there, but the casual, Cafe Express places seem to do well... people in the neighborhood who are walking there and want a quick and casual meal, or just a place to hang out. I think O'Dowd's was trying for that, but they couldn't make it work.

I've seen the film production sign too... It's actually on the vacant lot next to the shuttered building, not on the building itself. Does this mean construction?

[Haretip]

There have been several restaurants at the O'Dowds location that have come and gone over the years. I think it was started as a Fuddruckers, and I can't remember what has been there in the interim. I have heard things about parking for the building, the rent and the management company have caused the restaurants to fold rather than the efforts of the individual restaurants. It's right across the street from Hard Rock, so it seems to me there is a natural draw just getting HR's hand-me-down customers. It was usually packed as I recall. It's a shame that the bottom line can't be worked out to keep a decent restaurant there a little longer than has been the case.

That's all I have to say about that.

[Columbus Civil]

.. people in the neighborhood who are walking there ..

No one in that neighborhood walks anywhere. I wonder if that's part of the problem.

[evdallas]

I like to walk when I go out, so there is one person.

[texasyndicate]

you hardly see anyone walking in the uptown area:o

[aceplace]

you hardly see anyone walking in the uptown are

No, Texasyndicate, I can completely refute your statement...

I have clearly seen at least one person walking in the Uptown area, and it only takes one pedestrian to monkey your claim.

You said I "hardly" see... but au contraire, they were not just some nebulous shape, in fact they were easy to see... can't say I "hardly" saw them. In fact, I clearly saw them.

As to the number... I see plenty of people walking there... maybe not plenty compared to Midtown Manhattan, but plenty compared to a sunbelt city.

When I sit in the Starbucks on McKinney and Howell, out on the sidewalk, I see a pedestrian or a group walking by every two or three minutes.

These are most likely local people, those who probably live just a few blocks away. The Uptown district is also attractive out of the neighborhod, lots of people come from miles away to enjoy a pedestrian environment.

That's why it is part of Central Dallas, and why Uptown, State-Thomas, Old Downtown, Victory, Deep Ellum, etc make up an urban area called Central Dallas.

[texasyndicate]

FISRT OF ALL SCREW YOU ACEPLACE DONT EVER CORRECT ME!!!

LETS BE HONESTHERE, YOU ONLY SEE A COUPLE OF PEOPLE WALKING AROUND,THFRES NOT ENOUGH PEDESTRIANS IN THE UPTOWN AREA

[JBB]

He is not correcting you, he is simply disputing your assertion. Which, in fact, is exactly what you are doing to him in return. That is typically what happens on public internet forums where opinions and discussions are fostered and encouraged. That's really no reason to turn this into an AOL chat room argument.

[aceplace]

Texasyndicate,

Are you admitting that you were originally incorrect? And that I "corrected" you?

I thought so.

As JBB suggested, this is a public opinion forum. It encourages the free flow of ideas and opinions, in order to bring out all sides of an issue.

But there is a science, or discipline, of arguing a point. It is called RHETORIC. You commited three errors of rhetoric so far...

. You admitted that I corrected you, i.e., you were incorrect to begin with.

. You tried to make a point using an absolute claim. You said NOBODY... it only took one pedestrian to make you for a liar, if you will.

. You were foolish enough to demand that I do something for the sake of your argument. (Don't correct me). Actually, if you have to beg me to go easy on your argument, you don't really have one to make.

Your last statement, that there aren't ENOUGH pedestrians on McKinney Avenue? Actually, I agree with you there. I'd like to see some more myself.

[214]

does anyone(other than myself and ts) know what texas syndicate means?

aceplace who do you think you are telling people how to speak

[texasyndicate]

EDITED.

[JBB]

Sure, I understand what he means and I happen to agree that there's not enough pedestrian traffic, but I won't go so far as to say there is "none" or "hardly any".

texasyndicate: I give up. I'll let you win on that note.

[aceplace]

214,

I wish I could tell Texasyndicate how to speak... he sorely needs to know. As it is, he can only express himself with the language of the illiterate... grunts, gestures, and juvenile bodily functions.

If he wants to learn how to speak, he should read ...

The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense, by Suzette Haden Elgin,

or

How to Win an Argument, by Michael A Gilbert.

Definitely, when he learns how to speak, his desparate rages and his impotent frustrations could very well be in his past., just another unhappy memory of how he used to be.

[aceplace]

As far as the number of people who walk on McKinney Avenue...

It's commensurate with the number and density, as well as the type, of establishments in the area.

Between Pearl and, say, Hall Street, most of the establishments are large restaurants, mostly serving a nighttime clientele. There are a few in-out places, which you would think would attract a steady stream of customers all day long, such as the bank, the Starbucks on Howell, even the Cafe Express. As for the rest, there is no obvious pedestrian draw throughout an afternoon.

The number of people who do walk up and down McKinney, say about 60-90 an hour, means that people there do in fact walk to get where they're going, even though they're not going to the McKinney Ave restaurants, in particular.

Now, consider the West Village, farther down McKinney.

It has a much heavier pedestrian orientation due to the way it was designed, at least it is a heavily used pedestrian destination. Because of the inconvenience penalty of driving and parking, it's more practical for people in the neighborhood to just walk a few blocks. And they do. Of course, it also serves people who drive there from North Dallas.

Another Uptown area with a lot of pedestrian traffic is the area just south of WV, around McK, Lemmon South and Lemmon North. People who live in the immediately adjacent apartment blocks are walking... to the laundry, to the drugstore, and to the Albertson's for small purchases.

The Bottom Line...

The Uptown area does not have the density of, say, Midtown Manhattan, and will not have a pedestrian count like Manhattan. But it has a high enough pedestrian count to establish itself as a district that is truly pedestrian, where walking is a competitive means of transportation for many occasional errands.

[bloodandpopcorn]

214, correcting how people speak is not a crime. It's often a good thing. Now, in this case, originally Texas Syndicate said nothing wrong, in my opinion. "you hardly see anyone walking in the uptown area" is a statement that, depending on your perspective, can mean different thinks. Hardly compared to Manhattan, or hardly compared to Atlanta? Hardly is comparrison. Compared to New York, yes, you hardly see anyone walking around. Hardly compared to Atlanta, I would disagree. But it just depends on what TS meant by hardly.

However, using "FISRT OF ALL SCREW YOU ACEPLACE DONT EVER CORRECT ME!!!" as his initial response to aceplace is, well, stupid. Here are my points of criticism, hopefully constructive. Typing in all caps is a bad idea. It annoys people. It makes it almost impossible to take the poster seriously. No offense meant here, but, when I see a response in all caps, it makes me think of an angry, overweight, fourteen or fifteen year old boy who hasn't been getting any play, from anyone, and isn't likely do for quite sometime. I'm not accusing you of being this way, because alot of my friends, far removed from that age and who have gotten far more play than I, also have resorted to the "all caps yell", as it were. But I'm just saying, for me, and for many people, a message fully in caps is going to hurt you a lot more than help you.

I agree that there is not enough foot traffic. There should be much more. But there is some, and far more than anywhere else in the city at comparable times during the day (except lunch hour, when Downtown (aceplace, you want the area bounded by feeways to be referred to as capitalized Downtown, correct? or is it the other way around?) takes the cake over Uptown).

Now, let's all calm down and agree that most parties here made a few not extremely wise decisions (the first post really was not bad, I don't think, and I still don't understand how this whole little explosion was caused by it). I've probably made some too, which I will regret and apologize for once I re-read this message. but let's get back to the real issue at hand -- what is the date for WVII to start construction? Has anyone seen the, oh god, what's it called (it's changed recently!), but the 20-story residential tower. Looks like they started work on another story of it yesterday, to me. I can't wait until we can see this construction clearly from central.

Also, what do you think of the huge concrete shell that will be borders? I don't want too make too many preliminary statements, but I'm not a fan. It doesn't look like there will be anything on top of it, which disappoints me, and right now it looks like an ugly clay project. Will they be bricking it, I hope, or is it going to painted some ungodly white or yellow? Does anyone know? And will the building just east of it be 10+ stories, or is that taller section of that block going to be just north of it (and not yet under construction)?

[Columbus Civil]

I think I share your thoughts on the new Borders, b&p. It's typical big box tiltwall construction that you see in any part of town. I'm still excited to see them in the area, though. I hope the parking situation is pedestrian-friendly.

Why does aceplace always bring out the worst in people? He's my favorite poster.

[jsoto3]

I too am disappointed with the Borders. I suspect it will be bricked to match the WV and will look okay, but I am upset that the parking garage is taking up so much of the site, especially the frontage along Lemon. I don't know how many floors the garage will be (I'm guessing 4), but I doubt anything will be built on top of it. As for taller structures (office?), I think they will be built on the northern half of the block along Cityplace West Blvd. (as seen in the rendering).

[psukhu]

I agree that the statement about pedestrians is relative. There are hardly any pedestrians in Uptown when compared to London or New York. However, Uptown probably has a lot of pedestrians when compared to other Sun Belt cities. Especially when focusing on McKinney Avenue and State-Thomas.

TexasSyndicate, are you a native Dallascite or are you from a larger metro?

[aceplace]

Isn't the siting and appearance of the Borders and the parking garage just following the rendering that has already been published? The rendering also includes a somewhat taller building on the north side, so probably that is what we will see.

As for pedestrian counts during the afternoon... which neighborhoods in other, larger cities are comparable to McKinney Ave, in the surrounding residential population and with the number and type of businesses on the street? If you compare like to like, then we could decide whether the McKinney Ave pedestrian counts are normal, subpar or exceptional.

There's no point in talking about a generic pedestrian profile for Uptown in general, rather we should look at the profile for particular neighborhoods within it. Such as the West Village area.

San Francisco, for example, is urban and densely populated. And it contains some commercial strips with a lot of street traffic, but most of its neighborhoods are residential and empty of pedestrian traffic. On certain commercial strips, with a lot of shops, it will have pedestrians during the day and not at night. A couple of restaurant strips in SF have traffic at night, and very little by day.

Dallas' inner city will be the same way... a few pedestrian commercial strips and a lot of non-pedestrian residential areas.

As for start of construction on WVII, wasn't there some talk about it starting around June 2004? From the renderings, it doesn't look particularly promising, just a repetition of the same 2 story buildings already on the south side of Blackburn. It's a shame that the width of Blackburn will preclude any significant street life between WVI and WVII.

[bloodandpopcorn]

I agree about Blackburn! What I would love to see, but will never happen in Dallas, would be a massive, beautiful pedestrian overpass so that traffic and stoplights would not effect street traffic. It should have some built in places for street musicians, lots of brick, and ideally be filled with street musicians and painters (for Cityplace, DTD, portraits, whatever).

But nothing like that will ever happen, sadly...

[aceplace]

Blood,

I think you should never say never...

[evdallas]

wow, such animosity over saying people walk. Is it so hard to believe that people really do walk? maybe not the majority, but on any weekend nights I see groups of friends walking down to the restaurants/bars all the time.