DTD | First Baptist Dallas: Criswell Center

[hamiltonpl]

First Baptist Dallas is planning to build a new building on its downtown campus in the Arts District. It is to include a 24 hour coffee shop and other retail on the first floor.

See the renderings by Good Fulton and Farrell below.

www.risingtogether.com/te...&PID=51549 (http://www.risingtogether.com/templates/cusfbdallas/details.asp?id=22149&PID=51549)

[hamiltonpl]

First Baptist Dallas is planning to build a 7 story building on its Arts District campus which will include a 24 hour coffee shop and other retail on the first floor.

See the renderings by Good Fulton and Farrell below:

www.risingtogether.com/te...&PID=51549 (http://www.risingtogether.com/templates/cusfbdallas/details.asp?id=22149&PID=51549)

[UrbanLandscape]

It's not really the Arts District, since they've owned that property for years...

Yeah, my friend James is obsessing over it.

[bloodandpopcorn]

As much as I dislike the baptists, that's a really good idea. First ground-floor retail in the area, if i'm not mistaken? And a 24-hour cofee shop there will be nice. Hopefully the other stuff will be almost 24-hour. That site is currently a parking lot, right? if so, even better. Maybe I should reconsider whether i greatly dislike or simply disagree with these baptists...

[JaeTex]

Not to denigrate the project, I am in favor of (just about) anything that brings activity to downtown, but...

Does anyone know if the church pays property tax on the land? It must, right?

[hamiltonpl]

Pursuant to the United States Supreme Court decision in 1970, it is a violation of the First Amendment to place a property tax on a church. See WALZ v. TAX COMMISSION OF THE CITY OF NEW YORK, 397 U.S. 664.

Since the government is not forced to financially support the church, the church cannot be forced to support the government. The Court held that the creation of such a tax would "foster an excessive entanglement" with religion. Thus it fails the third prong of the Lemon v. Kurtzman test.

If a church were to default on its property tax, the state would then become owner of the church building. Restriction of such a fiscal relationship between church and state reinforces the desired separation -- insulating one from the other.

However, the state's ability for a church tax exemption only applies to property taxes. Example: a state cannot exempt a religious organization from paying sales tax. See Texas Monthly v. Bullock.

If you don't like the result, read Justice Douglas' dissent for personal solace.

(sorry, I am one of those law nerds).

[hamiltonpl]

Yeah, the Southern Baptist Convention makes some decisions that are inherently devisive.

Although they were offered huge free parcels of land up in Richardson and Plano, they resisted the flight up north. Church leaders even convinced a law firm to renew their lease in the 901 Main Place, instead of fleeing downtown. (many of the partners go to the church)

First Baptist Dallas seems committed to bringing more life to downtown. They bring almost 1500 kids downtown every day to the FBC Academy. In addition, they've already turned two parking lots into parking garages used by the general public.

For all the fire and brimstone you may read about, there is some good that comes from them.

[bloodandpopcorn]

So when is construction supposed to begin?

[UrbanLandscape]

I could find out quite a bit from my friend, James, who plays organ and trombone a lot. He is pretty involved at FBCD, so yeah.

[CTroyMathis]

http://skylinegruve2003.dallasmetropolis.com/P1010278-zdal2.jpg

So, there's still not enough money for finalized plans I take it...?
(Going by the sites' Dec '03 "news (http://www.risingtogether.com/templates/cusfbdallas/details.asp?id=22149&PID=58500)")


http://www.e-zekiel.com/clientImages/22149/BuildingPlans/st.-paul---wc--large.jpg
http://www.e-zekiel.com/clientImages/22149/BuildingPlans/ervay---wc-large.jpg
http://www.e-zekiel.com/clientImages/22149/BuildingPlans/praytwr.jpg

http://www.risingtogether.com/templates/cusfbdallas/details.asp?id=22149&PID=50255

[Foucault]

I don't get it. "Dining Level"? Do they run a soup kitchen?

[dallastophoenix]

could be for the school "cafeteria." private schools usually call them something other than cafeterias... my old school called it the "dining hall"...

[214]

any news on this project? i really like this one

[TexasStar]

Here is the latest news:
The construction contract for this project has been awarded to Beck.
Site preparation, including the demolition of an existing building, will begin about March 2005.
Construction should take approximately 14 months.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/samclark/dfw/criswell.jpg

[gc]

Nice. What exactly will be demolished?

[bloodandpopcorn]

And why has it/will it continue to take so long to get it underway? "Edited by gc"

[TexasStar]

Nice. What exactly will be demolished?
An older structure (about 4 stories) at the corner of San Jacinto and Ervay.

[drycreek]

"Edited by gc"

Ya know BP. I usually enjoy your post. I really don't understand why this is necessary or for that matter even acceptable. Surely it wouldn't be okay to say, "Jews really know how to tap into money", or "blacks sure can run real fast", or to display any other mean spirited or hurtful comments of prejudice.

If you don't agree with Baptist, that's fine. If you don't like them, that's fine. But this thread is about a downtown development that will HELP this city. Why don't we just stick to the topic?

Frankly, I'm surprised you would be so prejudice and narrow-minded as to think ALL Baptist are exactly the same.

I don't know who the moderators are on the board but seriously guys, this is getting old.

[hamiltonpl]

They aren't starting construction until the whole thing is paid for. Looks like they have 35 million as of May.



HOW WILL WE RAISE THE MONEY?

Our $44 million Rising Together Stewardship Campaign seeks to raise $22 million in cash and $22 million in commitments (through 2006). Our goal is to see 100% of our First Dallas families participating in the campaign.

WHERE ARE WE NOW?
Shown below is the breakdown of what we have received and what is needed to reach our $44 million goal:
Received as of May 18, 2004
Cash In-hand $21,740,583.97
Pledges (to be paid) $13,385,542.56
Total $35,126,126.53

Balance Needed
New Cash $259,416.03
New Pledges $8,614,457.44
Total $8,873,873.47


Here is an updated rendering of the Ervay side. This side is demolishing an old building with lots of stained glass and floor to cieling wood panels inside. The current building stands where the three curved windows on the ground floor are on this rendering. They are trying to preserve some of the history on the Ervay side by making it look similar to what is currently on the site.
http://www.risingtogether.com/clientImages/22149/BuildingPlans/new_ervay_rt_large.jpg


The St. Paul side is still going to be modern.
http://www.e-zekiel.com/clientImages/22149/BuildingPlans/st.-paul---wc--large.jpg

[Lakewooder]

Growing up as a Baptist in Dallas, we always said, "We're Baptist. But not First Baptist!"

[bloodandpopcorn]

Ya know BP. I usually enjoy your post. I really don't understand why this is necessary or for that matter even acceptable. Surely it wouldn't be okay to say, "Jews really know how to tap into money", or "blacks sure can run real fast", or to display any other mean spirited or hurtful comments of prejudice.

If you don't agree with Baptist, that's fine. If you don't like them, that's fine. But this thread is about a downtown development that will HELP this city. Why don't we just stick to the topic?

Frankly, I'm surprised you would be so prejudice and narrow-minded as to think ALL Baptist are exactly the same.

I don't know who the moderators are on the board but seriously guys, this is getting old.
drycreek, I was raised Baptist, whenever I attend church (a rarity though it may be) I attend a Baptist church. Every Baptist church I have ever been to has been very, very adept at getting money from its congregation (and non-members with big pockets) for improvements, mission work, outreach, etc. This has nothing to do with being prejudiced against Baptists. Park Cities Baptist Church has just embarked on building a $30 or $40 million dollar expansion with a three level underground parking garage and 3 levels above ground, and I think they began construction within a year and a half of the idea being proposed. This, however, has been on the boards for a much longer time, and it will still be a while before it begins. That seemed odd for a Baptist church, so I was simply curious.

First Baptist has a huge congregation, and (at least at my parents church, the aforementioned Park Cities Baptist) a reputation of having some very wealthy members. So logically I would have thought that funds shouldn't be much of a problem. Evidently they aren't getting the quick, large financial gifts that I would have assumed, probably because it's downtown. I don't know, which is why I asked the question.

So if I offended you, I'm sorry, but my meaning was in no way intended to be sarcastic or mean. It was an honest question from someone who has spent far more time than he would have liked in Baptist churches that is anxious as all hell for this project to get underway. I think it's beautiful, especially with hamilton's rendering. Having one building represent two very different styles and feel of two very different eras is going to make it a real gem in the area, I think.

[hamiltonpl]

Park Cities Baptist NEEDS a parking garage. I saw that people park in Preston Center and shuttle over to church half a mile away!

First Baptist doesn't really NEED this building. I think that's why fundraising has been a little slow. The campus has a lot of buildings already.

Actually, they could use a larger sanctuary, but making the 100+ year old sanctuary larger might just be too complicated of a feat.

[hamiltonpl]

This is what is currently on the site. I wish there were pictures of the interior online. Its really beautiful.

http://www.firstdallas.org/images/upload/building8.jpg


The modern part of the building will cover the current parking lot. The "older" part will demolish the Criswell building. (The building between the parking garage and the sanctuary).
http://www.firstdallas.org/images/upload/finalmap.gif

[drycreek]

Blood, thanks for the explanation. I guess I misread your comments, sometimes it's easy to do that on a forum. I guess it has just seemed like there has been a lot of negative comments concerning Christians on this board (especially with the anouncement that Fellowship was coming to DT) and I was reacting to that I guess. Anyway no harm no foul.

[Baptist]

The "Criswell Building" was built and occupied in 1953. The First Baptist Church of Dallas is now demolishing the building and will start construction on a new, 7 story building. They are holding a public sale on January 6th & 7th of 2005 from 9:30am to 5:00pm to sell the contents and miscellaneous memorabilia. They are selling solid wood paneling and carved architectural items, doors, light fixtures, furniture, antiques, glass panels, windows, church pews, organs, pianos, 2 elevators, solid carved doors, etc. The advertising is very limited and the contents are amazing!

[texman]

Wow, I had no idea about this project, great news (even if I'm a little late).

[texman]

The "Criswell Building" was built and occupied in 1953. The First Baptist Church of Dallas is now demolishing the building and will start construction on a new, 7 story building. They are holding a public sale on January 6th & 7th of 2005 from 9:30am to 5:00pm to sell the contents and miscellaneous memorabilia. They are selling solid wood paneling and carved architectural items, doors, light fixtures, furniture, antiques, glass panels, windows, church pews, organs, pianos, 2 elevators, solid carved doors, etc. The advertising is very limited and the contents are amazing!

2 elevators eh? Where would I put that :D ?

[frankchitown]

Is there a rendering of the new building? or a picture of the Criswell building thats being demolished?

[Columbus Civil]

I think the rendering is in another thread on here. Didn't it have a glass cylindrical thing on the corner? Or is this another building?

[mikedsjr]

In some ways it is sad to see that building go, but growth always requires the old buildings to be torn down in an area like that.

[Wineguy2000]

Baptist Any more info on the auction like location?

[US75Guy]

Whatever the religion, I'm happy that First Baptist is putting the investment and commitment into their downtown campus. I'm sure there has always been pressure to move the church out of the CBD, but they have always resisted. It makes for a more vibrant downtown to see churches, offices, schools, retail, residential, nightclubs, all packed together into a cohesive area.

[gc]

Whatever the religion, I'm happy that First Baptist is putting the investment and commitment into their downtown campus. I'm sure there has always been pressure to move the church out of the CBD, but they have always resisted. It makes for a more vibrant downtown to see churches, offices, schools, retail, residential, nightclubs, all packed together into a cohesive area.

I concur.

[slfunk]

They've started construction. They have been doing utility work for the past couple of months, and now Beck has their sign up.

[honestruerealman]

any news on this project? i really like this one
I think these buildings look too animated.

[jsoto3]

They have started demolition of the existing church in a big way. Someone please go get some pictures as it looks like it will be gone in a few days!

[carousel]

I wish there was someway of doing the expansion w/o the demolition of the existing structure. It is truly disappointing to see the architectural history of our city meet the wrecking ball.

[carousel]

Has anyone spoken against the demolition?

[hamiltonpl]

I think these buildings look too animated.

That may be because they are drawings and not pictures.

[hamiltonpl]

I wish there was someway of doing the expansion w/o the demolition of the existing structure. It is truly disappointing to see the architectural history of our city meet the wrecking ball.


It is disappointing. That building was really pretty on the inside. Lots of stained glass on the inside that you cannot see from the outside. There was wood paneling from floor to ceiling in every room.

It's really disappointing to see it go. I wish they could have just built around it.

[Tnekster]

I guess I am going to have to make another run through the city to see what is going on.

[carousel]

Maybe the stained glass and other interior features of the existing structure can be saved an inserted in the new structure.

[freewaytincan]

Maybe the stained glass and other interior features of the existing structure can be saved an inserted in the new structure.

I understand that's what they're doing.

[carousel]

Some good news.

[jsoto3]

Finally snapped a couple shots:
http://dallasmetropolis.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=9
http://dallasmetropolis.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=10

It would be great if someone else could get out there and get some more, better shots before the building is gone altogether (I suspect within a week or two).

Edit:
It will be interesting to see how they preserve and integrate portions of the existing Ervay facade as shown in the rendering in post #19 above. They do it alot in Montreal by tearing down an entire building behind a historic stone facade, shoring it up with temporary steel structure, and then erecting an entire new building (usually a tower) behind it.

[tamtagon]

I've always thought it funny and oddly ironic to see neon church signs.

All around the Arts District, the Catholics are building, the Baptists are building, I wonder how long before the Methodists begin building. I think it would be great for the Methodists to really punch up the beauty of their Arts District Church.

Anyway, the new building will have a 24 hour coffee shop, book store, fellowship mall, 800 seat dinner theater, commercial kitchen and office space. This should generate quite a bit of foot traffic. I like the calming effect from the religious buildings near the Arts District.

[freewaytincan]

A coffee shop. I'd defintely go there to read when I was in Dallas.

[freewaytincan]

Talking to my friend James, who's pretty involved (edited from an AIM conversation):

We saved the really good stained glass to put in the new building.

The "dining level" is a sort of banquet hall where we can have services It will have stage/sound/lighting and we will be able to do conferences and things like that in there. It will seat 1,500 and even more without tables.

That is one of the main reasons we are building the building; we don't have a space like that currently and we need one. It will cost 48 million. We have about 35 million in cash and pledges, but we had to start construction or the price would go up tremendously. We were originally going to only start when we had the money, but if we waited it would be a bad decision. The deacons unanimously voted to start early. That never happens but this was an obvious move that needed to happen.

[hamiltonpl]

I've always thought it funny and oddly ironic to see neon church signs.

All around the Arts District, the Catholics are building, the Baptists are building, I wonder how long before the Methodists begin building. I think it would be great for the Methodists to really punch up the beauty of their Arts District Church.

Anyway, the new building will have a 24 hour coffee shop, book store, fellowship mall, 800 seat dinner theater, commercial kitchen and office space. This should generate quite a bit of foot traffic. I like the calming effect from the religious buildings near the Arts District.
It may be tacky, but why is it ironic?

[tamtagon]

It may be tacky, but why is it ironic?

The red neon signs I'm so accustomed to seeing generally serve as an invitation to enjoy sinful activities; the Baptist Church neon sign is an invitation to enjoy the opposite activities. I may not be such a good role model for decisions based on the lure of red neon signs.